What do you think of this horse?

[kookicat]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/candour2

She has Wild Risk on her Dam's side, plus three star mares on her sire's side.

[szipi]

It is very difficult to prognosticate the value of a TB mare in a sporthorse breeding program based on bloodlines.

In Realty, Hail to Reason (and more importantly his sire, Turn-to) appear in the pedigree of a lot of good jumpers and the mother side exclusively consists of good turf horses that are stayers rather than sprint horses (their built, way of moving are more closely related to those of sporthorses). However, I would put a lot more emphasis on her conformation, movement and temperament (if it is possible, rideability) when making a decision to put her in my breeding program.

Based on that, with the selection of the right stallion, you have a very good chance to produce a great F1 cross. It is up to the totally unknown genetic potential of your mare, coupled with persistance, ton of effort, money and luck to see if your mare would become a foundation mare.

Over the past decade and a half, I had produced excellent sporthorses in all disciplines, out of good quality, AHHA, BWP and ATA approved TB mares. However, only one mare line (Key Moment: For the Moment X Key to the Mint) rose to prominence as my true foundation mare (as dam of both top-producing mares and dam of my successful stallion, Lotus T). I suspect that one of my other mares (Eloquent Step - Go Step X Terrang) would have become one, but she only produced colts.

[Equilibrium]

Kooki,

What's not to like?!!!! I love the In Reality and Roberto of the stallion and the mare is from the Pretty Polly family with a nice dose of Luthier up top.

Do you own her? And how do these star mares fit in to the picture?

Terri

[Catsdorule-sigh]

What szipi said.

I'm just a pedigree nut so others must chime in on performance but pedigree wise, I see a lot to like. Too bad some TB farms would not consider swooping this one up, no Prospector, Native Dancer, or Northern Dancer in there. (IMHO the breed needs some complete outcrosses to those lines, race record or not)

But again, what szipi said, evaluate the mare in front of you. See if you can see any of her dam's and sire's produce. Personally, I would take a close look at her grandparents. Had a baby once that seemed to throw back to a certain TB grandsire which made her unexpectedly short, compact, and Quarter Horse like. Not what we had in mind.

[vineyridge]

Absolutely lovely pedigree for performance. I love it that she is Man O' War on Top and has Luthier as damsire. That gets you Matchem and Herod really close up, along with all her other Eclipse lines. Just looking at the lines that have proved themselves in the Jumping disciplines besides the War Relic on top and Tourbillon/Ksar on the bottom along with Wild Risk, you have on top Roberto and Round Table and Mixed Marriage and Tudor Minstrel (linebred yet, top and bottom) and Grey Sovereign. On the bottom, you have Cranach who is inbred top and bottom to Blandford, but is sire line to Hurry On, and has a damline to The Tetrarch, and Ad Gloriam, besides being a hurdle horse herself, doubles most of those lines and brings in a Sir Gallahad line to Teddy that would double the Teddy/Plucky Liege lines in some of the American Horses. Sing Sing himself is nice, but then you get to the bottom lines which are pure gold. You have Big Game who is from the wonderful sire on European mares, Bahram, who was Blandford out of Friar's Daughter, whose granddam was Concertina, the dam of Plucky Liege. Big Game is out of Myrobella, a daughter out of the great dam line of Gondolette (dam of Sansovino), which produced for generations, and is Selene's line along with Myrobella's. But then Candour's next line down is to Dastur--and Dastur is by Solario out of FRIAR'S DAUGHTER!! So there is a huge amount of linebreeding on Concertina in this pedigree, and she was one of the best blue hen mares of jumping descendants in TB history. Tail Female line is Pretty Polly, which is one of the best producing mare lines in "recent" TB history. It's one of those lines which pass production ability down from mother to daughter over many, many decades.

If you are thinking about buying this mare for a jumping/eventing horse breeding program, there is nothing at all in her pedigree that would count against it, and a huge amount, including multiple ancestors approved into WB books, that would count for in favor.

In fact, she ought to be one heckuva of a race broodie as well. Huge number of superlative race horses on both sides of the pond of both sexes in her pedigree up very, very close. Although there are always the dead branches. :) This one looks pretty dead for speed per what's on Pedigree Query, but if their facts are correct, Candour's full sister did win five times out of over 20 starts over hurdles.

[vineyridge]

Terri, green stars on Pedigree Query mean that Ellen Parker of the Reines de Course program has determined that these mares were producers of more than one superlative athlete and have had lasting effects on racing using her criteria. Since she's based in the US she tends to have many fewer European mares unless they have had an major effect on the North American breeding population.

[Equilibrium]

Viney,

I just had a blonde moment! We've had sun for almost a week (shocking all together!) and it's gone to my head!

Terri

[szipi]

Hey,
I think this is not the racing, but the sporthorse breeding section. Here, speed on the racetrack means little. Besides, the very best TB mares (for racing) are so valuable as racehorse broodmares, they will almost never find their way into a sporthorse breeding program. Heck, I am not a saint or independently wealthy, if someone offered 50K for one of my TB broodmares, she would be gone on the spot.... If you look at the above padigree from a racing point of view, there's nothing on it that would make high class TB breeders to get excited about. The fact that you recognize some names in 3rd or 4th generations means very little.

The focus should be on the fact that his lines on top show up in the pedigrees of some good show jumpers and eventers and that on the bottom she comes from a European turf family. From sporthorse breeding point of view that is the ONLY thing that will give you any useful information. You guys could analyze this to death, get excited about absolutely nothing, it will not help. The only other useful information you could get is from conformation, movement, free jumping and possibly from riding the mare. Then you would have enough information to pick a stallion.

[grayarabpony]

I really like that Tudor Ministrel so close up. I'd love to see how she moves and jumps.

[vineyridge]

Andras, you are welcome to your opinion, but how do you get around the 40% jumping heritability statistic? When WB books went to the TB well, they went to race horses from lines that had proved they could produce the jump. All of the horses that I cited have done that, many from multiple generations with licensed descendants in WB books who are/have produced successful WBs.

BTW, TBs ARE sport horses. It's statements like yours that are offensive to so many others of us. At least with TBs we have hundred of years of performance to evaluate and since the book is closed, to concentrate the performing genetics. WB books devoted primarily to sport have only been around for sixty or seventy years or so; in another 200 years see what old lines are still doing well uncrossed with TB and use them.

You probably don't believe in linebreeding either. And you also probably don't believe that jumps racing is a jumping discipline. In fact, most of the fastest, best race horses were superlative athletes who could pass that on. And those TBs show up many times in most pedigrees, as Dr. Birdsall's lists of sport horse pedigrees proves.

I think you should invest in some research on TBs in sport. :)

BTW, your Eloquent Step was out of a mare named Katie L, whose dam Moveable has Fair Trial twice, through horses that produced for sport. She also had a tail female line that produced a couple of GP jumpers. Why did you ignore the direct tail female line? Were they too far back to matter? Terrang's dam line didn't produce for sport at all.

[kookicat]

Thanks everyone! Sorry my first post was so short- I was using my mobile phone. :)

I'm not a breeder (wish I could, but I'm really not set up to handle foals here). I came across her while looking for a hubby horse.

I just though that her pedigree was interesting, because I've heard many of those names mentioned on here before. :)

Erm, I hope this is okay- here are the pics from her sale ad. If it's not okay, I'll take them back down. :)

http://www.horsequest.co.uk/images/TaylorTB2April09.jpg

http://www.horsequest.co.uk/images/TaylorTB1April09.jpg

[TKR]

I agree with Viney. Although I think Andras is a serious and knowledgable breeder -- like most wb breeders he has limited himself quite a bit in researching Thoroughbred blood proven in sport. It's not about referencing one or two stallions/mares or one mare you had success with so you believe in her sireline -- which incidently, you are criticizing the OP in that vein. How much do you really know about that mare's pedigree other than the names of the sireline? It's about the entire pedigree many bloodlines that nick and produce well. It's also not always about breeding a Thoroughbred mare to a non-Thoroughbred stallion. Preserving 100% Thoroughbred sportlines is incredibly important IMO! Thoroughbred lines seem to be a source of interest here and are asked about quite often. There has been some great material and information furnished. How it is used and assimilated is up to the individual. However, it would seem that learning about any lineage in sport pedigrees would be a big help and of interest to any serious breeder of sporthorses, regardless of how they feel about the influence of the Thoroughbred -- it's already there and proven and the foundation of those breeds/registries that are held in such high regard by so many. There is alot more information out there than just stopping at Landgraf, Cottage Son and Furioso!
PennyG

[szipi]

.Looks like we are talking apples and oranges here. If you look at pure TB sporthorse breeding programs, with the exception of some British, Australian and Kiwi event breeding programs, they are simply non-existent. You can't find high-class TB farms who primarily breed dressage horses or whose goal is to produce GP jumpers.

It does not mean that European warmblood associations do not search for TB stallions who will have a positive and profound effect on their programs. Everybody is searching for the next Ladykiller and Cottage son. There is a problem though:

In the 50's and 60's, the warmblood breeds had to change to change from primarily agricultural use to primarily sporthorses in order to survive. They had to change very rapidly and they used a large number of TB stallions to achieve that. Very few had lasting influence in the different breeds - even though 80% of the old-fashioned mares were bred to TB stallions at the time. However, some important TB lines have emerged. It happened not because they were bred to be successful for jumping and for dressage (all these stallions were racing bred), but because they were selected based on conformation and movement that the selectors thought would complement their mare base and subsequently they proved to cross well with those heavy warmblood mares.

So today, most of the successful sporthorses carry significant amount of TB blood, and it is less likely that any one TB stallion will produce such a profound improvement in the particular breed. Also, with the deregulation of sporthorse breeding, such sweeping changes could not be implemented. Lastly, the highest quality TB stallions are the ones who could prove valuable in a sporthorse breeding program - but they are so expensive that the breed associations can't even dream of buying them. They are still trying to introduce more TB blood, but it is only happening drip by drip.

To the last poster: I was not ignoring the mare line of my mare, Eloquent Step. But because she has not produced a filly for me, her line in my breeding program is done. I also new, thaty if I give you guys the name, sire and dam-sire name, she can be easily looked up by all pedigree-nuts. But what good does it do? You will not be able to go out and find a replacement mare with very similar bloodlines for your breeding program (and that's exactly what you can do, if she had been a Holsteiner!). BTW, her first foal for me was a TB who competed at 3rd level dressage (a definite FEI prospect) when he died of a brain tumor at the age of 9 - talking about true dressage talent in TBs!. So guys, please don't think that I don't know my TBs...I am a racing fan and I have a bunch of friends in the racing business. heck, I owned two stakes-producing mares in my career. my stallion, Lotus T is 70% TB, I love my TBs....but I also know their place and significance in a SPORTHORSE BREEDING PROGRAM

[kookicat]

.Looks like we are talking apples and oranges here. If you look at pure TB sporthorse breeding programs, with the exception of some British, Australian and Kiwi event breeding programs, they are simply non-existent. You can't find high-class TB farms who primarily breed dressage horses or whose goal is to produce GP jumpers.

It does not mean that European warmblood associations do not search for TB stallions who will have a positive and profound effect on their programs. Everybody is searching for the next Ladykiller and Cottage son. There is a problem though:

In the 50's and 60's, the warmblood breeds had to change to change from primarily agricultural use to primarily sporthorses in order to survive. They had to change very rapidly and they used a large number of TB stallions to achieve that. Very few had lasting influence in the different breeds - even though 80% of the old-fashioned mares were bred to TB stallions at the time. However, some important TB lines have emerged. It happened not because they were bred to be successful for jumping and for dressage (all these stallions were racing bred), but because they were selected based on conformation and movement that the selectors thought would complement their mare base and subsequently they proved to cross well with those heavy warmblood mares.

So today, most of the successful sporthorses carry significant amount of TB blood, and it is less likely that any one TB stallion will produce such a profound improvement in the particular breed. Also, with the deregulation of sporthorse breeding, such sweeping changes could not be implemented. Lastly, the highest quality TB stallions are the ones who could prove valuable in a sporthorse breeding program - but they are so expensive that the breed associations can't even dream of buying them. They are still trying to introduce more TB blood, but it is only happening drip by drip.

To the last poster: I was not ignoring the mare line of my mare, Eloquent Step. But because she has not produced a filly for me, her line in my breeding program is done. I also new, thaty if I give you guys the name, sire and dam-sire name, she can be easily looked up by all pedigree-nuts. But what good does it do? You will not be able to go out and find a replacement mare with very similar bloodlines for your breeding program (and that's exactly what you can do, if she had been a Holsteiner!). BTW, her first foal for me was a TB who competed at 3rd level dressage (a definite FEI prospect) when he died of a brain tumor at the age of 9 - talking about true dressage talent in TBs!. So guys, please don't think that I don't know my TBs...I am a racing fan and I have a bunch of friends in the racing business. heck, I owned two stakes-producing mares in my career. my stallion, Lotus T is 70% TB, I love my TBs....but I also know their place and significance in a SPORTHORSE BREEDING PROGRAM

Fair enough, but what does any of that have to do with the horse I posted?

[grayarabpony]

Either the girl riding the horse is quite big, or the horse is small.

[vineyridge]

Andras, the TB lines that I cited are all in WBs and all are still breeding on over there. If you are unwilling to do research to find which TB lines work with WBs as a rule, there is no hope.

I've just spent a very productive Sunday afternoon researching Concertina on Paardenfokken. She has breeding descendants in every studbook in the world, including Holsteiner and KWPN. Even a bunch of dressage horses from a KWPN stallion named Sion. I did not take the time to run down every descendant listed to see about THEIR descendants, but I did do enough to be confidant that the lines in Candour are lines that also show up in WBs--usually at several generations removed from the great horse because WB breeders haven't traditionally don't played with the same deep pockets that race breeders have.

And, one further comment--since you admit that the WB was turned into a sporthorse by the addition of TB blood and by the constant infusion of that blood, why can't you admit that the sporthorse attributes came from the TB? And not the farm/carriage horse mares?

I would bet that Eloquent Step had siblings, half or whole or 3/4, that could be found and used in a sporthorse breeding program since she was proven and would have a high probability of sharing her talent with her close relatives.

I'm a pedigree nut, and it's a lot easier for me to trace through mares than stallions, just because of the numbers involved.

[TKR]

Thoroughbreds have been bred for the sport disciplines longer than warmbloods, which is why they made such an impact on the success of the wb in sport. They have been bred in the US as well as Europe for sport -- I've done so for 25+ years only recently incorporating a few wbs. Just because someone has owned or bred a few Thoroughbred mares or owned some racehorses doesn't say to me they are a student of or expert in their pedigrees for sport or racing. Their contribution to the sport disciplines has certainly been researched and documented with certain bloodlines showing up consistently. As far as the "high priced" or "successful" racehorses being out of reach for the sport breeders -- that's pure nonsense! There are many that have not cut it as racing sires or broodmares and become available very reasonably either in the stud fee or for sale. IN addition, many of the less commercial bloodlines have been proven successful in sport. I hardly think you can discount the pedigree of a Thoroughbred for sport -- it's a component just as is conformation, movement, temperment and type. It's just a matter of learning about it.
PennyG

[Toadie's mom]

Either the girl riding the horse is quite big, or the horse is small.

Yeah REALLY small, but looks nicely put together. I like her pedigree for sport horse breeding also, but the sz. could be a factor. I like small horses, but she almost looks pony sz. Which could be a "whole nuther" avenue for breeding.

[szipi]

Hey,
My first post was my answer to your OP. The second was a response to all those who think that I either do not like TBs or who think that by purely "researching" racing lines and racing results they can tell which horse will be a super jumper or dressage horse.

[kookicat]

Hey,
My first post was my answer to your OP. The second was a response to all those who think that I either do not like TBs or who think that by purely "researching" racing lines and racing results they can tell which horse will be a super jumper or dressage horse.

Surely, though, the lines that perform well in racing can be used as a good starting point when considering a horse for a sport breeding program? The show that the horse can be trained, and that they have some capacity for performance. You would have to look at the horse itself to decide if s/he was right for your program after that.

Also, it can hi-light which horses (or lines) stay sound. If a horse can race for x number of years, and retire sound, there's a good chance that horse will produce offspring that are likely to stay sound, even if the offspring are competing in dressage, eventing or show jumping.

Of course you can't just look at the racing lines, but they're a good starting point when looking for a breeding horse. Racing was around long before many of the other sports, and those lines go back a lot further than other sport lines.

[Equilibrium]

A few months ago, Viney pulished a thread on a horse called Tappenzee who was Anne Gribbons first GP dressage horse. From female family 2-f and one of my mares is actually tail female to this line. Not all that far off really. And my mare's father Robellino is tail female to the same line. I decided to go sporthorse with her this year because she has wonderful movement still at
17, she has beautiful conformation, sound in the wind and a lovely temparment. Her babies thus far have been racehorses who have proved sound and also many in the pedigree have been sound and good runners.

Maybe not what warmblood breeders would want, but she does have some sporting credentials in the pedigree and it's more than some TB mares.

I guess I'm a pedigree junkie too, but there are worse types of junkies I could be!:lol:

Terri

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Erm, I hope this is okay- here are the pics from her sale ad. If it's not okay, I'll take them back down. :)

http://www.horsequest.co.uk/images/TaylorTB2April09.jpg

http://www.horsequest.co.uk/images/TaylorTB1April09.jpg

Both the photographer's angles are a bit goofy, so I'm not 100% on my evaluation, but in the first pic. her shoulder appears a bit more upright than I would like--not so much in the second pic. I wonder how tall she is?

Not really relevant, but husband, who has no interest in horses, has picked up enough over the years to be able to say "she's the thoroughbred brown."

The pedigree discussion is fascinating--good thread...

[kookicat]

Her ad says 16h, but she looks a little smaller than that to me too.