General thoughts on the CWHBA?

[over the moon]

I was wondering what the general consesus of the CWHBA was from breeders on this board. I know most here aren't overly fond of the AWR (sorry for those who use it, I have no knowledge if it so have no judgement myself)... is the same thought of the CWHBA?

(Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association)

[showjumpers66]

From my limited experience with them, they seem to have high standards. We applied for all of our stallions to be entered into their studbook. They verified all of the testing and performance results before accepting the stallions.

[Donella]

they seem to have high standards

In all honesty, they don't. At least not for the dam side of things. I have seen plenty a CWB with an unknown or some other off breed dam. I know one year I was at the warmblood auction in Red Deer and I couldn't get over how most of the horses only had sires on their pedigrees. They also don't DNA. Basically the same deal as AWR/S but in all fairness, I do not know the ins and out, I am sure there are some differences.

Like any registry, there are some good horses.

Sorry for being honest, just my opinion and fwiw, I do own two CWBs.

[Forte]

I have owned NAWPN, ISR/OLD and CWHBA horses. My CWHBA horses have been the best quality and the most affordable to purchase. I think in the past, inspectors may have more lenient about approving lesser quality horses for breeding, but in the past few years I have seen the quality improve and the inspections get much stricter. So to answer your question, I have a very positive/favorable impression of CWHBA horses. Also the office is quite helpful when you have questions or concerns, unlike some other registries I've dealt with. The only negative thing I could say about CWHBA is that I do not feel that the CWHBA stallion test is as rigorous as the ones in Europe, and for that reason I only breed to stallions that have been approved in Europe, not ones that are solely CWHBA approved.

[Canadian Starz]

Canadian Warmblood Horses do require DNA. I partially agree, that the Stallion testing period, would be better extended by possibly another week. However, "the 100 day tests required by some, IMO are purely a money grab", and as such, sometimes the best animals owners, do not have the deep pockets required to attend to support foreign Registries.:) Canadian Warmblood has come a long way forward, and certainly ,there are some seriously fabulous animals in it's current program, that IMO folks should be looking at, for their programs.

[Formosus]

In setting up the current structure of the CWBHA the people that first organized it talked to all the major stud books and examined how they did things and what they thought the strenght of their organisation/stud book was. They shopped around. They tried to find the best model that would fit the need of Canadian breeders and they eventually settled on the German Hanoverian ways of registering horses but of course addapted it somewhat to the reality of the country (25 yrs ago trying to organise a 100 day test for stallions would have failed completely!).

And what people might fail to understand is that as a stud book ages it can built a marebase and proceed to be more and more demanding. At first you have to come up with a system that encourages grass root breeding but also steers it toward higher quality (othewise what is the point of starting a new organisation: just have all owners register their horses oversea). The CWBHA is about 25 yrs old at this point. It's progressing nicely I think. I have some reservations on how they do things but overall I think they are heading in the right direction-are they there yet? Probably not. But I keep thinking back that a canadian rider rode her Canadian Warmblood at the Olympics last summer and that feels sooo right:)

The same argument always come back: "I know of some Quarter Horse that is in their mare book ect.." I'm not saying mistake are not made but I think that by law all horses presented need to be registered or recorded even if its just to issue a certificate of pedigree (COP or white papers in CWBHA. The question is what book to put those mares in. What the CWBHA is not very good at is explaining the different books that exist so that people stop confusing a recorded horses with registered horses of the higher books.

Oh and they mares I know are in the CWBHA were all DNA'd. The new requirement came in a few years ago I believe.

Within 3 to 4 generation a dilligent breeder can bring the horses he/she breeds up through the books by breeding inpected, quality mares to approved stallions. I think that is a nice model.

[Forte]

Agree with Formosus, 100%. As of a few years ago, DNA is required. And as with most registries, if you want to breed your Quarterhorse/Percheron/Welsh cross to an approved stallion, you will get issued lower papers. With each generation that you breed to an approved stallion, the resulting offspring will go in a higher book. In a selfish kind of way, I kind of hope that CWHBA does NOT receive the sort of recognition that some of the European registries do. That way I can keep buying great prospects at half the price. I'm sure the Wolkenstein II/Arkansas and Wolkentanz/Arkansas mares I bought a few years ago would have been 2-3 times the price if they had been registered Hanoverian.

[stoicfish]

Not trying to upset anyone, but just wondering how some of the more knowledgeable people see the CSH (Canadian Sport Horse) and CWHBA co-existing?
I like some of the ideas about the Sport Horse group, but just not sure if we have enough people and horses to have both. Personally, I would like to see one group that incorporates some of the best ideas of both, if that could work. Am going to register a foal this year and need to look into the options.

[Forte]

There was serious discussion about almagamation of CWHBA and CSHA a few years ago, but in the end it never happened. I would love to see the two groups working together again. My general impression is that CSHA is more hunter oriented (actually, I believe the original name of the organization had something to do with Canadian Hunter blah blah blah Association) and that CWHBA is more geared towards the olympic disciplines. I think the CWHBA is far more similar to the European model. CSHA also has some very nice horses with them as well. My general impression is that they approve stallions more easily than CWHBA, but that is just my opinion.

[Tasker]

they seem to have high standards

In all honesty, they don't. At least not for the dam side of things. I have seen plenty a CWB with an unknown or some other off breed dam. I know one year I was at the warmblood auction in Red Deer and I couldn't get over how most of the horses only had sires on their pedigrees. They also don't DNA. Basically the same deal as AWR/S but in all fairness, I do not know the ins and out, I am sure there are some differences.

Like any registry, there are some good horses.

Sorry for being honest, just my opinion and fwiw, I do own two CWBs.

Ummm...not to go OT but the AWR does require DNA and does DNA verification on each registered horse and foal to prove their lineage.

Registration papers just provide written proof that a horse is who the paper say it is and provide an acceptable Life Registration Number.

IMHO CWHBA just implies a horse bred in Canada. It could have Dutch, Hanoverian, Oldenburg, TB, or Holsteiner just like a horse from Europe. If there is an Unknown or Unnamed horse in there, it is my 'job' as a shopper/breeder to inquire further regardless of what organization issues the papers.

FWIW I looked at a registered Hanoverian mare who was by an Elite Stallion and out of a TB mare. The mare's registration number was on the papers and her entire lineage was down as Unknown...it is documented, she existed, had a tattoo, her ancestors just weren't printed on her AHS papers for some reason. That didn't change the daughter's appearance, appeal or value....just made me do a bit of digging to find out who she was beyond the paper trail.

A good horse is a good horse regardless of which registry issues the papers.

[Amoroso]

I've been quite impressed with the Canadian Warmblood over the past two years of my involvement with them. We only recently purchased a couple Canadian Warmblood mares to add to our breeding program, prior to that we only had KWPN mares. With respect to the two registries, I always keep in mind that the KWPN has years and years of breeding in comparison to the CWHBA. Yes, the CWHBA mare books are more open than the KWPN, GOV etc... but they are still in the early stages of development. This is where all registries start, it is just that the others are much further ahead at this point. There are higher quality animals and there are lower quality animals, as in every registry or association. IMO they are doing the right thing by modeling the older european registries. However, another key difference that sets the CWHBA different from the AWR is the Canadian Pedigree Act. The guidelines for creating registries within Canada are very strict, and you have to prove that you are creating a distinct, recognizable breed with a genetic phenotype.
With regards to the CWBHA and the CSHA, the breeding goals and definition of phenotype are not similar. CWBHA, in my opinion, is breeding higher quality animals through more strict guidelines and approval qualifications.

[Donella]

Well I am glad they have decided to do DNA testing. I have a three year old 00 Seven x Faust z that is CWB and I was wondering if he had actually been dna tested. Had a friend of mine tell me that they do not do it, so it sounds like it was a recent developement. Maybe they are starting to up their standards a bit. As for the different books, well, maybe, but I have seen plenty of cwb with full papers in main book with non warmblood/tb/arab dams. This may have changed recently too..I am not sure.

Either way, what is the point of these threads? If a person says what they honestly think and it doesn't happen to be 100 percent positive, they get scolded for it. This happens in every thread that has to do with a registry or a breed. I think I am best to just stay out of it;)

[stoicfish]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. What I have read and heard is that the CWBHA is working with the gov of Canada to define the Canadian Warmblood to more along the lines of a breed as opposed to just a registry. Kind of like a Dutch or Han, just in the early stages and an open book. Or maybe trying to come up with a definition has more to do with politics and gov regulations about what is classified as a “breed” and an eligible association. The CSH group is a registry of proven completion horses (for all disciplines). I think the CWBHA has great possibilities because it allows breeder to choice from all the best horses, and it does provide documentation for that resulting offspring. As far as quality, that rests more on the breeders. But who buys a horse or uses a stud just based on the fact that they are simply registered anyway.

[vandenbrink]

Donella,

It's unfortunate you've had bad experiences with the CWHBA. The other posters are absolutely right, most studbooks will issue papers on foals out of non warmblood dams. The colours of the paper vary depending on the studbook status of the mare. For the CWHBA book those foals will be issued white papers while those out of higher level book mares will get blue or pink papers.

People don't mind honesty, but do appreciate it when you get your facts straight. If you don't know the facts, look them up.

[vandenbrink]

http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/index.php
This links to the front page of the CWHBA site. At the bottom of the page there are details about the CWHBA work with Agriculture Canada.

And Stoicfish I absolutely agree. People buy quality and not papers..most of the time.

Every studbook has it's Stars and it's share of ugly un-athletic horses.
Every studbook has horses with strong pedigrees and those with weaker pedigrees.

Horse owners need to work with a studbook that works for them. For me that's the CWHBA. It has a lot of fabulous programs such as foal futurities, performance futurities and I like the fact that my money stays in the country. As a mare owner it also gives me a tremendous amount of freedom. I have a lot of options and can use stallions from a large number or recognized studbooks.

[dbaygirl]

they seem to have high standards

In all honesty, they don't. At least not for the dam side of things. I have seen plenty a CWB with an unknown or some other off breed dam. I know one year I was at the warmblood auction in Red Deer and I couldn't get over how most of the horses only had sires on their pedigrees. They also don't DNA. Basically the same deal as AWR/S but in all fairness, I do not know the ins and out, I am sure there are some differences.

Like any registry, there are some good horses.

Sorry for being honest, just my opinion and fwiw, I do own two CWBs.

Re horses only having sires in their pedigrees: I have learned through registering foals with CWHBA that unless you send them the full pedigree of the foal's dam, the papers will only show what is on the mare's papers. For example, my mare is a Tb and her reg. papers only showed the sire line and her dam's name with no dam line. For an extra $15.00 you can send them the full dam line pedigree of your mare and they will re-issue new papers. Now I know to send the full pedigree the first time. It would be nice if one was informed before they register. Perhaps this info is somewhere on their site.

As for DNA'ing: It has been my experience and I am doing it again this year, that if a vet completes the foal ID portion on the back of the registration papers before the foal is weaned, no DNA is necessary. I am registering my colt this way this year and no one from the office has informed me otherwise as I have been in touch with them.

I have registered 3 foals with CWHBA, the last one being registered now, and my mare has never been DNA'd. She has been inspected and approved Premium years ago, not sure if that has anything to do with it. I would imagine they would require DNA for registering a weaned foal which makes sense.

I find the staff at the head office to be very friendly and helpful whenever I phone for information. When I had issues a while back, my emails were answered prompty by a member of their Stub Book Committee, which I appreciated.

I appreciated the fact that US sire of my colt that is being registered this year was able to be entered into their stud book through his competition results with no inspection required. I thus was able to apply for full CWHBA papers for my colt. This way I can breed to suitable quality stallions outside of this registry and still get full papers for the offspring.

I'm not sure if people realize and correct me if this has changed, but you can get registration papers for offspring from unapproved but CWHBA registered stallions. The foals simply are entered into an auxiliary book. Do buyers care what book the horses they purchase are registered in? All they care about is the phenotype and if they are going to higher level competitions they do need a horse with papers. A registry should be simply that, a place where one can secure a record of breeding and ancestry for their prospective sport horses. IMO, there are way too many breeders who breed to trendy, well marketed stallions who have owners with deep pockets. Unfortunately, many follow the opinions of a registry rather than researching on their own to find the most suitable mate possible for their mare. After all, most WB registries are a compilation of horses with ancestries originating from the same European demographics.

To tell you the truth, if the stallion I used to create the colt I have today could not have been entered into the CWHBA books, it wouldn't have mattered to me one iota. What matters to me is that this colt is absolutely spectacular in every way. I cannot imagine restricting myself to one registry for stallion selection if it meant I couldn't create the best possible sport horse prospect with one of the best possible mates for my mare.

I haven't used any other registry so I can only speak for CWHBA. So far, I've been quite happy to use them for registering my foals. They seem to have a lot going on these days...ie. foal futurities, auctions, etc. I think they are making huge strides in their progression and they have a more professional look to their media and events. It kind of makes one ask "CSH WHO?"

[over the moon]

Thanks for all the replies. From the little research I did on the organization, it seems to be fairly well run. I am also keen on supporting a Canadian organization, so I consider that a perk as well.

I just purchased a Canadian bred WB yearling... Her sire was bred by her breeder, with his sire being a stallion the breeder imported from Europe as a 2-y-o, and his dam sire (breeder bred his dam, as well) also being a stallion the breeder imported. My filly's dam was another horse her breeder bred, with HER sire again being a stallion that the breeder imported as a 2-y-o.
I believe my filly's sire and dam sire are in the CWHBA studbooks, but her dam is not (and cannot be presented for inspection due to injury). Anyway, I suspect it will be a bit of an ordeal to get everything in order to have my filly registered and eventually inspected at three, but I am glad to hear that their customer service is well run.

One other question, though: my filly is not registered at the moment (obviously), and in looking briefing at the CWHBA website, most of the information I found was on registering foals (split between weaning, under 12 months, and over 12 months), and then the mare testings at 3. I know fees to register increase after the horse's first birthday, but given that my filly will be celebrating hers in a week's time, is there much point in having her registered before I go to have her inspected at three? I don't plan on doing any line classes or anything like that, so apart from taking advantage of those resources, is there any reason to have her registered now instead of waiting until she's three?

[FriesianX]

I don't personally have any CWB horses, but I know someone that does, and they are well bred, nicely producing mares! Yes one of them has a touch of Quarter Horse way back - she is 1/8 QH, the mare can jump the moon, and her offspring have been consistently NICE, performing quite well in the show ring, mostly in dressage (including some top 3 placings in USDF Regionals). RPSI and some of the other Euro registries allow non-Warmblood lines and issue lower papers too.

I agree that Canadian Warmblood (and American Warmblood Society and Registry both) are working hard to improve their quality control requirements. By the way, AWS requires DNA testing for any horse approved for breeding.

I talked to a rep from CWB (or CWHBA to be more accurate) a few years back - they were here in Northern CA for a big horse event, and they seem to really be "on the ball". Some nice horses, great promotion events, working hard to serve their members well. I was quite impressed - especially the part about trying to serve their members well!

As for creating a breed like Hanoverian or Dutch WB - well, those aren't breeds, those are performance registries. There are no "purebred" Hanoverians (or Oldenburgs, or Holsteiners, or ...). Most WB registries are not breed registries, they are performance registries.

OTM - the only advantage (at this point) to having your horse registered before her 3rd birthday would be if you were to sell her (easier to market a registered horse), or of course, if you were going to show her (you never know, this year you say no, but next year, there might be a nice show in the area, and you decide to take her out). The other thing to remember - make sure you have everything you NEED to get her registered - including paperwork signed by her breeder.

[ASBJumper]

I inquired a few years ago regarding this misconception about CWB white papers - the response I got from one of the regional CWB reps was exactly this: yes, white papers are considered full registration papers, NOT "certificates of pedigree".
The CWHBA makes a distinction between its papered BREEDING stock and its general riding horses. The latter are all registered under the G book, NOT the Auxiliary book, and have white papers. A foal out of an unapproved, uninspected mare CAN get white papers on her foal by an approved CWHBA stallion. :)
Inspected breeding stock will usually get pink or blue papers.

The CSHA, however, will *only* issue registration papers to a foal if BOTH parents have been inspected and approved for breeding, or in some exceptional circumstances, when there is an excellent competition record for one of the parents or approval by another recognized registry (for the stallions).

I am not really pro-CWB or CSH, by the way. I have bred two babies in the past 5 years : one CWB papered mare and one CSHA papered gelding.

Just wanted to add that bit of info, though.

[dbaygirl]

Over the Moon: I would get your filly's paperwork in before her first birthday because as you know the cost of registering will increase after her 1st birthday. Like other Poster has said, you may want to show her before age 3 and around here you need proof of registration to enter the sporthorse line or riding classes. Also, are you having her inspected at 3 to have her entered into a different book? Why bother, unless you are planning on using her for breeding. Even so, at least for me, all I care about is that my horses are registered. It's lovely to be in a higher level book, but who out there except the breeders even understand what that means when they go shopping for horses? Even as a breeder (very small one at that) I care more about the individual phenotype and pedigree.

Also, depending on the injury type of your filly's dam, I believe you can have her inspected. You simply advise the judges of her type of injury and they will go from there. My mare, dam of my stallion and others, was inspected having suffered a previous injury to her hip (broken) and she still went Premium at her inspection.

The best thing to do would be to call the registry office and talk to Victoria. She is SO helpful. You can ask her about having your mare inspected, about what kind of papers you can have for your filly with or without your mare being inspected and the benefits of having your filly inspected at three years of age. Victoria Kendall is in the National Office under Contacts on the CWHBA web site: http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/contact.php#national

[Amoroso]

It has a lot of fabulous programs such as foal futurities, performance futurities and I like the fact that my money stays in the country. As a mare owner it also gives me a tremendous amount of freedom. I have a lot of options and can use stallions from a large number or recognized studbooks.

Exactly. We competed in the foal futurity last year, and it was great. Good competition, fun event and prize money!! Given that the KWPN comes to Alberta only every two years, it is nice to have an alternate venue to get my foals out.

[over the moon]

Over the Moon: I would get your filly's paperwork in before her first birthday because as you know the cost of registering will increase after her 1st birthday. Like other Poster has said, you may want to show her before age 3 and around here you need proof of registration to enter the sporthorse line or riding classes. Also, are you having her inspected at 3 to have her entered into a different book? Why bother, unless you are planning on using her for breeding. Even so, at least for me, all I care about is that my horses are registered. It's lovely to be in a higher level book, but who out there except the breeders even understand what that means when they go shopping for horses? Even as a breeder (very small one at that) I care more about the individual phenotype and pedigree.

Also, depending on the injury type of your filly's dam, I believe you can have her inspected. You simply advise the judges of her type of injury and they will go from there. My mare, dam of my stallion and others, was inspected having suffered a previous injury to her hip (broken) and she still went Premium at her inspection.

The best thing to do would be to call the registry office and talk to Victoria. She is SO helpful. You can ask her about having your mare inspected, about what kind of papers you can have for your filly with or without your mare being inspected and the benefits of having your filly inspected at three years of age. Victoria Kendall is in the National Office under Contacts on the CWHBA web site: http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/contact.php#national

Thanks for the info! To clear up a few points/answer some questions:

I don't think I have time to get her registered before her first birthday. I don't know how long it takes, but her birthday is coming up (I'm not sure of the exact date - working on that - but I'm pretty positive it's within the next week or so).

I am about 99.9% positive that I won't be doing any line classes with my filly. A, because I have no real desire to show horses on the line (haha), and B, because I'm on the east coast and I'm pretty sure we don't have any CWHBA sponsored shows in my province, and the Maritime bred classes I've seen at hunter shows have all been under saddle.

I am having her inspected for breeding purposes, otherwise I'm not sure that I'd bother with registering at all, as I have no plans of ever selling this filly (she's an investment, not a resale). If she matures as nicely as she's indicating now, I am tentatively looking into breeding her once at three.

As far as my filly's dam... I just said injury as an easier explanation. She was born with a slight deformity; her fetlock was twisted in utero and resulted in a permanently curved in fetlock joint/hoof in front. She's comfortable and painless on it, and has adapted well and can keep up with the herd fine, but she's not visibly sound, even at the walk. She has great bloodlines, so we bred her and discovered she's a great producer, but I don't think having her inspected would be a possibility. All you can really judge is her conformation, less one of her front legs.

Thanks for the contact, I will give Victoria a call!

[stoicfish]

Friesian X - “As for creating a breed like Hanoverian or Dutch WB - well, those aren't breeds, those are performance registries. There are no "purebred" Hanoverians (or Oldenburgs, or Holsteiners, or ...). Most WB registries are not breed registries, they are performance registries.”

Actually I find this interesting. While I understand a bit of the history of WB’s and often refer to them as a registries myself, there are talks between the CWHBA and Agriculture Canada (government) where a Canadian Warmblood is in fact being referred to as a breed! Odd eh! Check it out if your interested in such things
http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/2007news/pdfdocs07/DistinctBreedversusEvolvingBreed.pdf

[FriesianX]

Friesian X - “As for creating a breed like Hanoverian or Dutch WB - well, those aren't breeds, those are performance registries. There are no "purebred" Hanoverians (or Oldenburgs, or Holsteiners, or ...). Most WB registries are not breed registries, they are performance registries.”

Actually I find this interesting. While I understand a bit of the history of WB’s and often refer to them as a registries myself, there are talks between the CWHBA and Agriculture Canada (government) where a Canadian Warmblood is in fact being referred to as a breed! Odd eh! Check it out if your interested in such things
http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/2007news/pdfdocs07/DistinctBreedversusEvolvingBreed.pdf


The other reason they'd probably want to declare it a breed in Canada is because the government there actually says one Canadian based registry per breed - so they don't end up with 18 different Warmblood registries, 6 different Friesian registries, 5 different Andalusian registries, 4 Thoroughbred registries, etc. In many ways, it makes some sense :winkgrin:

[PaulaM]

Well here are some interesting statistics from a recent dressage show here in Alberta. If I counted properly, there were 74 entries. Break down as follows:

CWHBA 18
Hanoverian 9
Dutch 6
Oldenburg 6
Westphanian 5
CSHA 4
Thoroughbred 4
Grade 4
Trakehner 2
Swedish 2
Partbred Arab 2
Connemara 2
Appaloosa 2
Cleveland Bay 1
AWB 1
Thuringer 1
Holsteiner 1
Iberian 1
Andalusian 1
QH 1
Morgan 1

And looking at the levels the CWHBA registered horses showed at, they ranged from Training through 3rd level with 1 horse doing the FEI 4 Year Test and 1 doing the FEI Junior tests.