Foaling ? IYE How long after milk tastes sweet? She foaled this morning!! Pic added.

[amdfarm]

I have been watching two mares fairly closely for the last week now.... sigh... and still no new babies!! I have one that is closer than the other, but since they're together I check both.

This mare is 9yo and this will be her third foal for me. I've had her since she was a yearling and she's just a real sweetheart in every way. She had her first foal unassisted for the most part at 9am in the morning. Found her w/ the hind legs of the filly still inside her. She waxed for a few days and then foaled. I never tasted her milk then, as that was new to me at the time. Second foal, she waxed a few days, then when I went for a night check she was in stage 1 labor, had beads of sweat all over her back and chest and was streaming milk. She finally got down to business and foaled just before midnight w/ my help.

She's been shaping up for awhile now, her udder is tight, tight, tight, vulva doing it's thing, jello tail head, edema under her belly along w/ milk veins. Lots of foal movement, the poor girl I feel for her. She waxed one day last weekend and I haven't seen anymore since (it could be falling off since she's out on pasture and has to move around to eat and drink.) I went and checked her a little bit ago and finally got a chance to check and taste her milk. No idea on color, flash light died on me so I was doing it sorta blind and one-handed at first. It's pretty sticky (rings stuck to my fingers) and tastes sweet. This is the first time in a long time of tasting milk that I've actually tasted sweet. I normally get the yucky bland, then BAM baby before I get a chance to check again. She'd laid down and rolled and also peed and pooped. Lots of gut sounds, too. Scared me. I pushed on her flank a little and it talked back! lol

She nickers at me whenever I go out and check on her, she's been isolating herself more and more the last few days and when I threw more hay for everyone, she didn't come down to eat. I took her some (she has me well trained) and she did eat for a bit then stopped and continued looking miserable w/ a hind foot cocked.

What's your experience once you taste sweet? She's probably going to need my help again and I need to be there when she does decide it's time. I've been checking her about every two hours. And since I just threw more hay for everyone else, she'll be able to isolate herself even better.

This is fun right? :)

TIA

[Thomas_1]

What's your experience once you taste sweet?
TIA :eek:

When I saw the title of this one I couldn't understand why you were expressing milk from the horse

I use scanning technology as the predictor and I've also used birthing alarms. (a girth attachment which monitors for contraction and has a remote buzzer to wake you up!)

I'm really struggling with the concept of trying to predict a foaling by tasting the milk.
I understand the principles of what you're describing as you can get something to test milk. I believe that the electrolytes in the milk and particularly calcium, raise slightly immediately prior to foaling. I know however that with cattle they're not terribly accurate (understatement) and hence not widely used by farmers and similarly I don't use them for those either - even though I've got 800. I think they're more for the 'pet market'. Don't know what they're like for horses but I don't personally know anyone with a stud that uses them so I'm guessing there either must be better things or else they're not very accurate.

Anyways back to scanning. I'm very fortunate in having Jonathon Pycock as a long standing friend and he was my stud farm vet for over 20 years. He's considered to be the world's best practice expert on scanning technology and equine reproduction. He lectures and does clinics globally and was a pioneer of embryo transfer.
http://www.pycock.co.uk/Italy3.htm
http://www.pycock.co.uk/rfm.htm

So quite simply, Jonathon scans a horse and tells you what time she's going to foal (aside from the fact that mares can hold off if they're not settled or feel there's a risk of course). He also used to tell us what time to get mares served and its down to him that my stud farm had a phenominal record of getting mares in foal.

I also rely on the other indicators which I don't know if you know or not:

So at the risk of being patronising....

udder distension around two to six weeks

shrinking of the muscles in the croup area at 7 to 10 days

nipple enlargement 6 days

waxing and milk dripping 24 hours

That is all first stage and the point that the mare can to some extent control and 'hold off' as I mentioned earlier then its:

restlessness, tail swishing, perhaps getting up and down, sweating (a bit like colic symptoms)

The there's a major expulsion of waters and its up to 5 gallons - so you can't miss it!

Then you're at the activation and foaling stage.

Haven't got a clue about this tasting sweet milk though!!!!

[amdfarm]

LOL, thanks Thomas! :)

I thought by putting Foaling ? along w/ that question in the title would help... or not. :winkgrin:

First the milk will taste salty, then bland and then sweet the closer she gets to foaling. I was just wondering for how long in other's experiences, or should I have said, how soon until water breaks (know that, been splashed a few times by it), bubble and baby.

My mares tend to not read the book on foaling and can be very sneaky.

I think she was coning me into bringing her her food so she didn't have to walk to it. No foal and I just checked her again twenty minutes ago. Birds are singing and I need a nap! Haven't been to bed yet.

[Thomas_1]

LOL, thanks Thomas! :)

I thought by putting Foaling ? along w/ that question in the title would help... or not. :winkgrin: I meant I couldn't understand it because it's not a predictor. Here we call that "an old wives tale". But I don't know if you guys have that expression.

[Equine Reproduction]

It's actually a very effective method of predicting impending foaling. With the equine, there is a cascade of events that occur that, as part of that, will manifest in changes that are visual, as well as can be tasted in the mare's milk. When the milk changes from salty, to bland, to slightly sweet, foaling usually occurs within 24 hours.

With the equine, as part of the foaling process, things like calcium will precipitate out in the milk. Think if it something like an electrical current that requires the wiring to be in place of the electricity to get from point a to point b. When the wiring is in place, the current will be able to turn teh light bulb on ...oversimplification, but hopefully will help.

I personally don't use the commercial milk tests as everything that occurs that those tests work on, are easily visualized or tasted. Milk will typically go from clear, watery tasting like sweat, to yellow and watery, to yellow and sticky like honey and still salty, to skim milk looking and bland (no taste really) to looking like cream and slightly sweet. Once it hits cream and sweet, foaling usually occurs within 24 hours. In the past 8 years, I've not had to spend more than one night on foal watch, it's that good of a predictor.

I can't speak for cattle, but in horses, the changes that occur in the milk as a prediction of impending foaling is well researched and documented, hence the predictor tests that are available. It isn't an "old wives tale" <smile>.

Hope that helps!

[Thomas_1]

It's actually a very effective method of predicting impending foaling. With the equine, there is a cascade of events that occur that, as part of that, will manifest in changes that are visual, as well as can be tasted in the mare's milk. When the milk changes from salty, to bland, to slightly sweet, foaling usually occurs within 24 hours.

With the equine, as part of the foaling process, things like calcium will precipitate out in the milk. Think if it something like an electrical current that requires the wiring to be in place of the electricity to get from point a to point b. When the wiring is in place, the current will be able to turn teh light bulb on ...oversimplification, but hopefully will help.

I personally don't use the commercial milk tests as everything that occurs that those tests work on, are easily visualized or tasted. Milk will typically go from clear, watery tasting like sweat, to yellow and watery, to yellow and sticky like honey and still salty, to skim milk looking and bland (no taste really) to looking like cream and slightly sweet. Once it hits cream and sweet, foaling usually occurs within 24 hours. In the past 8 years, I've not had to spend more than one night on foal watch, it's that good of a predictor.

I can't speak for cattle, but in horses, the changes that occur in the milk as a prediction of impending foaling is well researched and documented, hence the predictor tests that are available. It isn't an "old wives tale" <smile>.

Hope that helps! The thing is though that most folks wouldn't know what "bland" is. Wouldn't know what "sweet" is. I know that when I worked in the food industry that 80% of folks tested didn't have a pallate good enough to be in taste panels. I'd be really interested if you could cite the research though?

[Sugarbrook]

I am a "taster", and if you do it enough, over the years, you will surely know the SWEET taste compared to the bland, slighty salty taste. Its been a reliable indicator for me.

[Equine Reproduction]

The thing is though that most folks wouldn't know what "bland" is. Wouldn't know what "sweet" is. I know that when I worked in the food industry that 80% of folks tested didn't have a pallate good enough to be in taste panels. I'd be really interested if you could cite the research though?

It's one of those things that once someone begins doing the tasting, they learn to identify the changes, they are that significant. And the taste changes are simple enough that most people paletes "can" identify the change, e.g., salty, bitter, sweet, sour, etc. They are not complex taste differences.

Dr. Bill Ley did a lot of the research on the original foaling predictor tests available. Ley WB, Bowen JM, Purswell BJ, Irby M, Grieve-Crandell K.The sensitivity, specificity and predictive value of measuring calcium carbonate in mares prepartum mammary secretions. Theriogenology 1993;40:189-198..

I don't have time to pull up all the research on it, but the above citing was the one for developing the original test. It is quite commonly used now when induction of labor is done in mares, and there has been other research since then. I'm sure if you ask Jonathan Pycock about it as a method of predicting impending foaling, he would verify it as a viable method <smile>.

In any event, hope the above helps! Off to check mares...

[Waterwitch]

I'm also a "taster". Along with other physical characteristics of the mammary secretions (and mare), and of course calcium and pH in mammary secretions, I rarely stay up more than one night any more unless I'm watching a maiden mare.

I'm tracking one right now that went from salty to bland over the last 48 hours. Calcium has been slowly and steadily rising and pH is slowly dropping. She is day 331 today.

[Equine Reproduction]

As previously noted, testing the mare's milk is well researched and a relatively reliable method of identifying impending parturition in the mare. The visual changes and the taste of the milk are just cruder methods of identifying those specific changes that the commercially available tests are identifying.

Ley WB. Prefoaling management of the mare and induction
of parturition. In: Robinson NE, ed. Current therapy in
equine medicine 3. Philadelphia: Saunders, 1992;
664–668.

Ley WB, Hoffman JL, Meacham TN, et al. Daytime foaling
management of the mare 1. Pre-foaling mammary secretions
testing. J Equine Vet Sci 1989;9:88–94.

Ousey JC, Delclaux M, Rossdale PD. Evaluation of three
strip tests for measuring electrolytes in mares’ pre-partum
mammary secretions and for predicting parturition. Equine
Vet J 1989;21:196–200.

Brook D. Evaluation of a new test kit for estimating the
foaling time in the mare. Equine Pract 1987;9:34–36.

Leadon D, Jeffcott L, Rossdale P. Mammary secretions in
normal spontaneous and induced premature parturition in
the mare. Equine Vet J 1984;16:256–259.

Ley WB, Bowen JM, Purswell BJ, et al. The sensitivity,
specificity and predictive value of measuring the calcium
carbonate in mares’ pre-partum mammary secretions. Theriogenology
1993;40:189–198.

Rossdale PD, Ousey JC, Cottrill CM, et al. Effects of placental
pathology on maternal plasma progestagen and mammary
secretion calcium concentrations and on neonatal adrenocortical
function in the horse. J Reprod Fertil Suppl 1991;44:
579–590.

Hope that helps!

[Thomas_1]

Dr. Bill Ley did a lot of the research on the original foaling predictor tests available. Ley WB, Bowen JM, Purswell BJ, Irby M, Grieve-Crandell K.The sensitivity, specificity and predictive value of measuring calcium carbonate in mares prepartum mammary secretions. Theriogenology 1993;40:189-198..

I don't have time to pull up all the research on it, but the above citing was the one for developing the original test. It is quite commonly used now when induction of labor is done in mares, and there has been other research since then. I'm sure if you ask Jonathan Pycock about it as a method of predicting impending foaling, he would verify it as a viable method <smile>.

In any event, hope the above helps! Off to check mares... Testing milk I do understand and I said that in my first posting. It was tAsting it I was cynical/sceptical about. I actually thought it was a typo when I first came to the thread. I thought the poster meant tests not tAstes.

[Home Again Farm]

Checking milk is one of the very best predictors of foaling. I have used it for years and it has saved me many sleepless nights while ensuring that my mares foaled attended. In addition to color, as Kathy and others have pointed out, taste is a very significant factor.

See, you learned something today, Thomas. :winkgrin:

[Equine Reproduction]

Testing milk I do understand and I said that in my first posting. It was tAsting it I was cynical/sceptical about. I actually thought it was a typo when I first came to the thread. I thought the poster meant tests not tAstes.


Well, as noted, the testing is well researched and as sodium drops (hence the salty taste disappears), pH changes, etc., all of those factors are noticeable in the taste of the milk - significantly so. As noted, the tests do work! But they are time consuming and expensive. They are definitely helpful for those mare owners that are unfamiliar with the foaling process, nervous about their mare and need a little bit of help in identifying impending foaling. But, quite honestly, those horse breeders who literally have foaled out lots of mares and don't need a specific quantitative score, a visual and taste evaluation are usually all that are necessary. Give it a try sometime <smile>...you might be surprised at just how valuable a tool it is and how effective!

Hope that helps!

[Thomas_1]

Well, as noted, the testing is well researched and as sodium drops (hence the salty taste disappears), pH changes, etc., all of those factors are noticeable in the taste of the milk - significantly so. As noted, the tests do work! But they are time consuming and expensive. They are definitely helpful for those mare owners that are unfamiliar with the foaling process, nervous about their mare and need a little bit of help in identifying impending foaling. But, quite honestly, those horse breeders who literally have foaled out lots of mares and don't need a specific quantitative score, a visual and taste evaluation are usually all that are necessary. Give it a try sometime <smile>...you might be surprised at just how valuable a tool it is and how effective!

Hope that helps! I've no sense of taste! Chemo wrecked it!

[Sugarbrook]

Waterwitch, you and I are totally on the same page. I HATE all of this staying up watching. On Mare Stare they wait for weeks (months sometimes) and many of them never test (or taste)! I just like to get my sleep.
:D

[Equine Reproduction]

I've no sense of taste! Chemo wrecked it!

Bummer. Grab a kid and make them taste it <grin>. But, as noted, the taste difference is significant and not a subtle nuance such as one would look for in food. No subtle hint of citrus or flowers <lol>.

[grayarabpony]

This is very interesting. Really, I had no idea milk taste was such a good indicator! I just watched my mare like a hawk -- exhausting.

[sfstable]

I do use the strips to indicate foaling readiness but I also "taste". I too find this is a huge predictor for me -- but it is a "learning" experience. You just learn "the taste" after foaling out multiple mares. I have only "lost" one night of sleep this year (the night my first mare delivered at 3:45AM ) as my second mare nicely accomodated me by foaling at 9 PM. :)

My last mare for the season (a maiden) is "tasting like" tonight may possibly be the night. She changed to "milk color" this morning and read at 6.8 on the pH scale. I will know better on this evening's milk check -- but she has been sleeping all day on the camera.

[amdfarm]

Thank you, Kathy, Sandy, Liz and Mary Lou!! I didn't think I'd lost my mind completely yet. :winkgrin: Thomas had me wondering there. :)

I've been a "taster" for awhile now, ever since I found out it meant something. It does tend to gross out family members though. My son would NEVER taste it, he thinks it's nasty and leaves the vacinity when I'm doing it. :D So much for my tough kid that can handle just about anything at this point.

Still no baby and I'm about to head out and check her again and throw more hay. I'll at least be able to see color this time.

gap - now ya know!!

[4M Perennial Farm]

I'll add our anecdotal 2cents.

Last year was our first experience with foaling. We were present to observe the foaling of each of our three mares (one maiden and two experience recips), including one that foaled at d317.

It took a total of 4 wakeless nights. Other than twice daily temperature measurements on the maiden, we simply went on appearance and texture/tackiness suggestions that we originally found on Kathy's site and later corroborated in The Complete Book of Foaling by Hayes.

No foals this year, but two in foal for 2010. I'll add tasting then.

[amdfarm]

Well it seems that all of the Mt. Dew I was drinking last night skewed my taste results. SIGH........

Not only do my mares not follow the rules, but their milk apparently doesn't either. It's clear, very sticky and BLAND now. :confused: Last night I checked it a half dozen times to be sure and I swear it was sweet every time.

She does have wax again and happily came down to eat w/ the others.

Chores are done, so I think I'll go fishing. I love this mare to pieces, she's one of my firsts. If that baby knows what's good for it, it'll wait until I'm present to attend like it did last time.

I've had a mare that went from yellow, sticky and bland to foal in less than four hours before.

[amdfarm]

Well, about 25 minutes ago I tasted and checked color at this check. It's slightly opaque, sticky and SWEET, I swear. I drank a glass of water before going out so my results weren't skewed. :) We had a storm come through tonight so I was thankful the baby didn't decide that would be a good time to come out. We've got more coming tonight and tomorrow, but hopefully s/he will wait until it's a tad bit more dry out. Baby daddy is just in awe of her for some reason. I mean she couldn't be anymore pregnant (well I guess she could) and everytime she's standing along the fence and tips her nose over to their pasture, he has to trot over, talk sweet to her and nuzzle her nose, AND she lets him. Then he's happy and walks away like nothing happened. I mean it's very cute and all, but why. He's never done that before once the mares are pregnant.

Maybe by this time tomorrow morning I'll have a foal. Vet is coming this afternoon and I may con him into tasting it and seeing what he thinks. :lol:

[amdfarm]

My sweet mare finally foaled this morning. All is well. Now to wait for the next rulebook non-follower! :)

[Signature]

Congrats!!! :)

[Waterwitch]

Congratulations!

[amdfarm]

Thanks Signature and Liz!! Appreciate that.

Here's a dark Birthday pic of the handsome little man. Today is also my grandson's 2nd birthday. So he picked a good day to be born. :)

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr278/amdfarm/angelcolt605.jpg

[trakmom]

Looks like a good sturdy fellow. Good bone and cute.

[amdfarm]

Thanks, trakmom. Yes, he is. Very solid boy, great muscle and bone. But that's what I expect from his mama and daddy.

[columbus]

I have had two foals out of my mare now and neither has embraced their mothers colostrum. One, though hardy, ended up septic so she could have been in trouble from the get-go period. She didn't nurse well and then antibody levels were low...I know with the sepsis, on hind site, there wasn't going to be a rise as the antibodies were doing their job and not circulating. The half brother foaled the next year and while he sucked normally he didn't spend much time nursing the colostrum and seemed frustrated. Her colostrum was very thick seperated easily and looked curdled. His antibody levels were good but we were concerned enough at his slowness her went to the vet for observation. Once the colostum was gone the foals began nursing enthusiastically. I know that two foals is not much of a sample but I think I will have a frozen colostrum ready next foaling and consider milking out the colostrum if the foal isn't gung ho. Has anyone else had flavor issues...since we are tasting the colostrum now...Thanks PatO