DRAW REINS VS RUNNING MARTINGALE

[MCMILLEN]

My friend, who is a trainer, has me using draw reins on my 4 yo qh mare to teach her to keep her head down and not fight the bit. Having never used draw reins before, and not being an experienced rider, I find I spend more time worrying about how I am using the draw reins than enjoying my ride. I am also concerned that since I am not experienced with them that I might be doing more harm with my mare than good. I have used a running martingale before and found it to work well on getting a horse to keep it's head down. I had been told the purpose of the running martingale was to keep the horse from getting its head too high also. If this is true would it be better for me to use a martingale rather than trying to mess with the draw reins? I would appreciate any input from more experienced riders on this subject as I could use all the advise I can get.:)

[Shadow14]

I feel you don't have a feel with draw reins and you tend to be too hard on the bit because of the leverage factor. I like to start my youngsters in a running martingale because it give me more control then anything but at the same time I can be gentle with his mouth, I still have a feel but after a few months I drop even the running martingale.
I too would not be comfortable with the draw reins

[JackSprats Mom]

RUN FAR FAR AWAY FROM THIS TRAINER!!!!!

A running martingale even in bad hands can only do limited if any damage as it only goes into effect when the horse raises its head above a certain point.

Draw reins on the other hand can be HARSH HARSH HARSH, if you don't know how to use them don't. You are far more likely to ruin a horse then help solve a problem.

Either of these tools are just quick fixes and not solving your mares problem

[ponygrl25]

Put down the draw reins and step away. I would stick with a running martingale, properly adjusted, with rein stops in place. I would also work without it sometimes, encouraging your horse to stretch out her back, neck, and head and look for the bit. You can do this from a relaxed walk a little at a time with soft fingers gently half-halting (more like massaging) the reins and once you get her to relax her head and neck, you can start using a little leg to push her into the bridle and round up and use her back. It may be best to do this in an enclosed area and keep it as low key as possible. I like to practice this at random intervals during a ride, I call it putting my pony on cruise control. I ease off the reins, she drops her head and stretches, while maintaining a forward medium walk. It is a leftover from our dressage days and she now asks me to let the reins out when she needs a break. Thats how I know she is truly relaxed at a new ride/place. Good luck and don't let your trainer push if you are not comfortable.

[Leather]

NO DRAW REINS. While I don't think they are evil, they are not a tool that an inexperienced rider should use.

Ponygrl gives some good advice.

If you must use something, I prefer a German martingale over a running martingale.

http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/tack/german-martingale.htm

[spaghetti legs]

Oh dear lord.

Throw your draw reins in the bin. They certainly can have their place as an occasional training tool, but certainly most never in the hands of anyone but an experienced rider.

Why do you need to keep your horse's head down in the first place? ? Please be more concerned with how your horse moves, works and uses her body - than the overall aesthetics. If you simply want her head down because it creates a more pleasing picture to the eye than you are doing the wrong sport. Take up figure skating or ballet.

Sigh.

[MintHillFarm]

RUN FAR FAR AWAY FROM THIS TRAINER!!!!!

A running martingale even in bad hands can only do limited if any damage as it only goes into effect when the horse raises its head above a certain point.

Draw reins on the other hand can be HARSH HARSH HARSH, if you don't know how to use them don't. You are far more likely to ruin a horse then help solve a problem.

Either of these tools are just quick fixes and not solving your mares problem

As a long time hunter rider, and having brought along many young horses, neither the draw reins or running martingale should be used on young horses with an inexperienced rider. These are for the very season professional rider...You are not teaching your horse anything other then to have the head forced down by leverage. My old trainer used to say that "draw reins in inexperienced hands are like razors in the hands of monkeys"...

Go find yourself a trainer that is able to teach you correctly, good flat work. This means educating you and your horse properly on balance, use of your seat, hands and legs. Going in the direction you are headed now will not educate you or your horse!

[Eventer55]

As a long time hunter rider, and having brought along many young horses, neither the draw reins or running martingale should be used on young horses with an inexperienced rider. These are for the very season professional rider...You are not teaching your horse anything other then to have the head forced down by leverage. My old trainer used to say that "draw reins in inexperienced hands are like razors in the hands of monkeys"...

Go find yourself a trainer that is able to teach you correctly, good flat work. This means educating you and your horse properly on balance, use of your seat, hands and legs. Going in the direction you are headed now will not educate you or your horse!

Please, please, please listen to these people. As a sometime eventer and previous CTR/endurance rider I can tell you that learning to ride properly is the best tool you can use. It can help you keep your horse balanced and sound, but like most things there are no short cuts. Your horse's balance starts with your seat and legs, not by cranking his head down.

Run, run really fast. . .

[pj]

You've been given excellent advice, please pay attention.
I don't know when we went from proper training to gimmicks being the way to go. But it's SAD.

[MCMILLEN]

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all the wonderful advice. I joined this forum because I had not owned a horse in about 25 years and just started riding again about a year and a half ago. Due to the amount of time since I use to ride I consider myself to be at the upper end of beginner stage so obviously I can use a lot of good advice from experienced riders. I have found just that with this forum. The horse world, just like everything else, has sure changed alot in 25 years, especially training methods!

So once again, thank you for listening and helping to quide me in the right direction.

[MintHillFarm]

Good luck and keep us all informed on how you and your horse are progressing!

[busterwells]

Please, please, please listen to these people. As a sometime eventer and previous CTR/endurance rider I can tell you that learning to ride properly is the best tool you can use. It can help you keep your horse balanced and sound, but like most things there are no short cuts. Your horse's balance starts with your seat and legs, not by cranking his head down.

Run, run really fast. . .

Oh my do I ever agree, I just had A thread about a month ago about this same issue ("Bucking horse after working with trainer").

I had the perfect trusting trail horse and then decided that I wanted to do some western pleasure showing so I went to a "trainer" that someone suggested to me and she started off with the running martingale to keep her head down. Well, I realized that this was a big mistake right off the bat, because I could feel myself confused at using this equiptment properly, I knew I was using it wrong and my body was in the wrong position while using it. But the trainer pushed the horse on and also me.

To make a long story short, my lovely horse developed a nasty attitude, a sore back and hind end and I could not ride her for months. She was a bucking mess. I finally had to have a chiropractor out to reajust her and then a couple months of reajusting her attitude and to get her to trust me again. I was so upset I crying for a week.

Luckily I had the wonderful advice of people on this site to help me through this and I now have my loving trusting mare back and we are back on the trail for good. Please Please Please take this advice. A good trainer should be able to get your horse to hold its head down in a more slow manner without all this equiptment.

[Beverley]

I definitely agree with the advice already posted here- lose those draw reins and the running martingale. I'm currently working my 4 yo too- and as I do with all young horses, first get them going agreeably OFF CONTACT- don't worry about where that head is, when the horse develops the back muscles through your steady work, and improves on the shift of balance that comes with having a rider on board, the head will take care of itself. Make lots of (not too small) circles at the walk and the trot, with a leading rein, to teach her to relax and give to that bit, and moments of flexing at halt and walk and later trot, to teach her softness in the jaw.

As Beverly Sills said- there are no short cuts to anyplace worth going. Enjoy the process, and your horse will too.

[Shadow14]

Running martingales have their place in schooling youngsters. I use one with a snaffle for the first month or two. Ajusted properly it works only when the horse lifts it's head too high. The rest of the time it is not noticed and you can keep your hands light with a direct rein to the bit.
Al Dunning is a great trainer and recommends a running martingale as well.

Google him

[Quinn]

MCMILLEN, you refer to yourself as the upper end of a beginner. I say you're a great horseperson in the making! You knew instinctively that draw reins are a big no no in uneducated hands and/or on such a young horse for the wrong reasons. Good for you and may your gut guide you as you go to seek out proper instruction.

I concur with all the above who say, run far far away from this trainer. It's not about mechanically dropping a head. It's about working a horse properly from behind and riding through. I look forward to more posts from you!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[pj]

Running martingales have their place in schooling youngsters. I use one with a snaffle for the first month or two. Ajusted properly it works only when the horse lifts it's head too high. The rest of the time it is not noticed and you can keep your hands light with a direct rein to the bit.
Al Dunning is a great trainer and recommends a running martingale as well.

Google him

IMHO in the first "month or two" or longer the horse should be ridden with the goal of finding his balance carrying a rider at different gaits and over different terrain Without resorting to gimmicks of any kind. Course I don't believe in gimmicks of any kind anyhoo. We (I know not all) used to be willing to put work and time into a young horse, now we want it all NOW so use this gimmick or that gimmick and save your lazy butt from having to work. I find this sickening.
note: Shadow, not refering to YOUR lazy butt, people in general that have to have their gimmicks and shortcuts to train.

[MassageLady]

My friend, who is a trainer, has me using draw reins on my 4 yo qh mare to teach her to keep her head down and not fight the bit
First, you're friend needs to take lessons.
Second, if you want your horses head to be down, ride her over ground poles-it will make her look down and will quit fighting.
LOOSE THE DRAW REINS/MARTINGALE
In order to get the horse FORWARD and ON THE BIT, the horse needs impulsion-forward movement!. So, the next time you're riding, KEEP YOUR HANDS STEADY, do not-REPEAT NOT-put them on your knees, to force the head down, keep them above the pommel...whenever the horse raises his head, just give him some leg...it's that simple. He raises his head because he has lost the connection and needs to be PUSHED forward and onto the bit. Trust me, 10 min and you'll see a different horse.

[MintHillFarm]

Running martingales have their place in schooling youngsters. I use one with a snaffle for the first month or two. Ajusted properly it works only when the horse lifts it's head too high. The rest of the time it is not noticed and you can keep your hands light with a direct rein to the bit.
Al Dunning is a great trainer and recommends a running martingale as well.

Google him

Running martingales and draw reins are not the way, in my opinion to educate a youngster. The means of leverage to bring a horse's head down is not correct.

[Shadow14]

Running martingales and draw reins are not the way, in my opinion to educate a youngster. The means of leverage to bring a horse's head down is not correct.

I am not the least bit interested in teaching the horse to drop his head through a running martingale. It is my safety net in case the horse runs. I start lots of babies and they do that out in the open, not in a confined round pen or arena. Within a day or two they are out in the open fields, bush and running roads. I teach head position through a relaxed way of going and soft soft hands. I don't want a horse on a bit, I steer with my legs or the weight of the rein, not the contact with the mouth. To pick up a slack rein is to signal the horse to slow down, a shift of weight and the HO stops him. To turn it is the legs, the twist at the hips as is lead changing.
The reins are held centered and if they move off center the horse turns to recenter them. To ride on the bit on long runs is too tiring on the horse and on you. Relax, throw the reins away so to speak and control him through body language, your mind and voice. Not the reins.
The running martingale is for the first few months when the horse suddenly takes off or whatever and it quickly puts him back into place and you continue on with absolutely NO contact with the mouth whatsoever.
That is my way of making a very light horse and after I am positive there is no more out of the blue running, or bucking the martingale goes back on the wall hook.

[Shadow14]

Have you ever driven somewhere and when you get there suddenly it dawns on you that you don't remember the stops, the turns but suddenly you have arrived and it scares you because you were totally unaware of driving there??
I do this all the time on a ride. I don't concously remember turning say down the 5th row of corn but the horse just knows that is the row in my head I picked. It is all about body language. I just seem to think about a row I want the horse heads to it, no movement of the reins, just a suttle shift of the legs, a twist of the body from the waist and the horse knows and after a while you forget those suttle movements but the horse doesn't.
If you truely ride long long miles your elbows can't take the constant pull of the rein, it is too tiring and you develope tennis elbow. On any rides the most weight I want to feel is the weight of the reins itself and not the feel of the horses head on the bit or anywhere else.

[SmokenMirrors]

OP are you training your horse to be a good trail horse or western pleasure or both? My own opinion, for what it is worth is that to have a safe trail horse, he has to be free to use his head, neck, and body to balance on the trails, going up or down inclines, and you are part of that process. To inhibit him movement and mobility is doing him a great injustice.

And from the AQHA information I get in the mail and read on line, as I am a member, they are getting away from the peanut pushing look, now going to a more natural head carriage and gate.

Good luck and there are some on this board will give you good solid advice.

[Shadow14]

I jnow I am running on and on but it is on my mind and I can't go back to reading my good book until I spit it out.
I jog down alot of roads and if he drifts too close to the pavement I just lightly squeeze with the pavement side leg and he quickly drifts towards the ditch. If I want to turn say to the right my left knee goes slightly forward, my right drops back and he turns between the legs, very little movement of the reins. If I want to stop I shift my weight back , pick up the reins slightly and say HO. To ask for a trot, a double squeeze of the legs. To a lope I just use one leg, move it back and touch his flank and at the same time pick up the lope motion, which ever leg I used he picks the opposite lead.
For fly changes I pick the opposite leg that he is loping on, hold it for a few strides getting the motion and then flick my butt to the opposite side while taking the leg off and switching legs and he is suspended at this time and comes down on the opposite leads.
It is all about body, little bit work and I am actually thinking about throwing the bit away again and go back to the simple side pulls that Strider wore for 17 years. But in the beginning I use a running martingale.

[Shadow14]

OP are you training your horse to be a good trail horse or western pleasure or both? My own opinion, for what it is worth is that to have a safe trail horse, he has to be free to use his head, neck, and body to balance on the trails, going up or down inclines, and you are part of that process. To inhibit him movement and mobility is doing him a great injustice.

.

A running martingale, adjusted properly and little or no real contact on the bit in no way impedes the horse's movement or mobity. It is only when he fights the bit by lifting his head that he even knows it is there.
Alot of jumpers use the running martingale and they certainly need freedom of their head.

[SmokenMirrors]

Shadow14, I have not ever used a running martingale or draw reins on any of my horses so I am only speaking from what I and my dad use to do. I am glad though that you have and can give insightful information from experience. I should of said that what I gave her was from one who grew up riding trails of Nevada/California...thank you though for that clarification. :)

[MintHillFarm]

I see your point, though I would never use nor recommend using them to ride youngsters...

They are used on jumpers, and it is accepted equipment on educated horses.

[Shadow14]

Belplosh I tend to run off at the mouth too much at times but I have a method that produces very light exceptional horse and I tend to stick to something that works. Alot of thought, experience and hard work goes into training a horse and I don't want a run of the mill animal but something that stands out head and shoulders about the average.

It does involve risking the horse and my own life at times but I will plan rides, plan tests, situations that challenge the horse and I will ride them through.
I am not looking for shortcuts but at the same time I won't spend months teaching something that should only take a week. I will refine it for the rest of the horses life but usually within 2 years he is made for life and only requires an occassional tuneup over the years.

[goeslikestink]

op its not the done thing to use drew reins on a young horse and not the best thing with a novice rider as yu say your not expreinced enough to use them in the wrong hands they are lethal

if however you need something to help you have secure seat then by all means have an old stirrup leather around his neck as a safty hold
please take time to have a gander around my helpful links pages
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

any trianer that cannot perform the half halts stride isnt worth botehering with
and sounds like the trianer you have at the moment is using force to get the horse into an outline which is incorrect
you want to be able work the horse from butt to poll to a ralex yaw
by having light hands secure leg and independant seat
which can be achived by lenghtening and shortening the horse stridesusing the half halt stride in every transition obviously doing down gears 1st as ts easier for the horse to learn and all new things taught should be done in walk so he learns to use his rear end and get that underneath himself then he will be focused straight forwards and balanced and his mouth will be soft

take your time to read my helpful links and pay perticular attention to the 1st 3 or 4 links and page 1 as its all relevent
work the horse on both sides satrting with 10 or 15 mins building it up into an hour
so the horse is worked evenly and fairly as hes so young

[SmokenMirrors]

Belplosh I tend to run off at the mouth too much at times but I have a method that produces very light exception horse and I tend to stick to something that works. Alot of thought, experience and hard work goes into training a horse and I don't want a run of the mill animal but something that stands out head and shoulders about the average.

It does involve risking the horse and my own life at times but I will plan rides, plan tests, situations that challenge the horse and I will ride them through.
I am not looking for shortcuts but at the same time I won't spend months teaching something that should only take a week. I will refine it for the rest of the horses life but usually within 2 years he is made for life and only requires an occassional tuneup over the years.

Hey no problem Shadow, I have always enjoyed reading your posts. Too bad your not closer to me, I would have you come out and evaluate my own trail horse, who started out his life as a show horse, with the peanut pushing head drop and everything. Now, he has been taught I wish a more natural head carriage and he has been phenomenal, several times getting us out of sticky situations that some of my friends, whom I no longer ride with as they are too daring for my taste, got us into. Course, that is the QH mind for you, and he does think and is a great buddy!!