Any way to get rid of clover????

[jaimebaker]

Hope this isn't a repeat of a recent topic but I am curious if there's any good way to get rid of clover. Preferably something that doesn't require a horse to be off the pasture for more than a few days. I'm dreaming right???:lol: Every year I battle with my horses looking like beached whales no matter how much I work them. I walked the pastures today and realized that clover is EVERYWHERE out there. And my 'small lot' I put them in to drop weight off is now overrun with it as well. It's mainly Ladino/white clover.

[deltawave]

2,4-D will kill a lot of it . . . for a while. But clover is incredibly persistent and difficult to eradicate. We have TONS of it, and it's all volunteer stuff. When we use 2,4-D it all appears to die back, and stays crumpled for weeks, but then it starts growing again.

[dmalbone]

There was a post on here a little while ago and it seems the consensus was that clover is fine. Not sure how much I'd want to deal with, but I love having a good amount of clover out there. Legumes are great for them.

[jaimebaker]

2,4-D will kill a lot of it . . . for a while. But clover is incredibly persistent and difficult to eradicate. We have TONS of it, and it's all volunteer stuff. When we use 2,4-D it all appears to die back, and stays crumpled for weeks, but then it starts growing again.

That's what I was afraid of:( Is there any other type of aggressive grass (that is decent for horses) that could choke it out?

[jaimebaker]

There was a post on here a little while ago and it seems the consensus was that clover is fine. Not sure how much I'd want to deal with, but I love having a good amount of clover out there. Legumes are great for them.

Not when they get so fat I pray they don't founder every day:mad: It's fine in my other pastures...just not in these particular air ferns pasture. And frankly, I'm tired of dealing with the slobbers they've gotten for the last 2 years as well.

I'm not talking about just a 'good amount'. I'm talking 6 acres that's probably a good 60% clover. That's NOT fine to me.

[Ponyclubrocks]

Talk to your Ag dealer about a product called ForeFront, it offers excellent control of clover and other tough weeds and horses do not have to be removed.

[dmalbone]

Eek. 60% is a lot! I didn't know you were talking about that much.

[jaimebaker]

Talk to your Ag dealer about a product called ForeFront, it offers excellent control of clover and other tough weeds and horses do not have to be removed.

Holy crap, FANTASTIC!! I will begin my search this week!!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[jaimebaker]

Eek. 60% is a lot! I didn't know you were talking about that much.

Oh, it's hideous. This pasture has always been my problem pasture. I had a mare founder on it years ago. I moved her to across the driveway in a smaller pasture that's not so...healthy:lol: The problem pasture is just really, really nice pasture. 'Nice' as in...not good for a lot of horses. Too rich, too sugary, and obviously, too much damn clover. This particular pasture was cut from 15 acres down to about 6 (we have the back half for hay now). But my stallion and one of my geldings are on it. Every year I battle the bulge. I have a small lot within this pasture that's fenced in (1/2 acre) that I was going to start locking them in until I walked it this week and saw that literally 80% of the small lot has now been overtaken by ladino clover. Gee, I don't know why they are so fat:mad: And it's rained so much I can't even work them so I'm frustrated as can be. I walked the bigger pasture today and it looked to be about a good solid 50-60%. It's always been an issue but never this bad of a problem. My fault for not taking care of it before now.

I don't mind a little bit here and there but yes, what I saw today was just ridiculous.

Oh, in the next few weeks I plan on cutting that 6 acres in half to where they don't have access to the 'healthier' side of it. But still, no matter how I divide that pasture I've got clover everywhere. I feel like I'm running in circles. ACCCK!

[deltawave]

Do you get your soil analyzed? The presence of clover may indicate some or other deficiency that might be mitigated with adjusting the nutrient balance. I wish I knew more about it, but your County Extension will surely be able to help.

[Tamara in TN]

I don't mind a little bit here and there but yes, what I saw today was just ridiculous.

!

it's the rain we've had...it has exploded everywhere...if you wanna really do it dirty, then strip spray roundup

best

[jaimebaker]

it's the rain we've had...it has exploded everywhere...if you wanna really do it dirty, then strip spray roundup

best

I'm <THIS> close to doing that. Wonder what a controlled burn would do???? The rain...the RAIN...:eek:I'm happy for our crops and the water tables but I could really use a break from the rain. Even the quicky 15 minute showers we are getting a day is keeping it so muddy out there I can barely walk in it. Our soil is a mix of dirt and evil, hideous clay. Apparently all that can grow in clay is clover:lol: And some other funky yellow flowered weed. And from there, it just begins it's rampage across the pastures. I hadn't thought about the rain. I just thought my head had been in the sand and maybe I hadn't noticed the problem until today.


And deltawave I haven't had soil analyzed. Since it grows quite literally everywhere in Tennessee, I can't imagine something in the soil I could change that would halt it. But by golly, I'll ask when I go ask for that product another poster mentioned. :yes:

[dmalbone]

And some other funky yellow flowered weed. And from there, it just begins it's rampage across the pastures. I hadn't
Ugh, it's not ragwort is it? It grows everywhere around here (and is poisonous) and seems to LOVE all of the farmland and clay around here. ...and our new pastures are old farmland.

[sunridge1]

Forefront works, just used it this spring. Doesn't hurt the grass. Turned horses back in at 4 days. (To be safe.)

[deltawave]

Our obnoxious yellow weed, just finishing its yearly appearance, is mustard. It's getting better year by year as we keep after it. I pay my son $0.01 for each one he pulls up by the roots. He made five bucks this year. :eek:

[jaimebaker]

Ugh, it's not ragwort is it? It grows everywhere around here (and is poisonous) and seems to LOVE all of the farmland and clay around here. ...and our new pastures are old farmland.

Yep. I hate that crap. Between that, clover, and the little white daisy looking things that harbor chiggers I am on a mission with these freakin weeds:mad: The horses don't mess with the crap though (knocking on wood!)...but they do go to town on some clover. Fat, greedy buggers.

[jaimebaker]

Forefront works, just used it this spring. Doesn't hurt the grass. Turned horses back in at 4 days. (To be safe.)

Heck,if it works that well I'll do all the horse pastures with it. NO telling how much that's gonna cost me (I've got 20 acres separated out just for the horses).

I emailed through the Dow website to find out where I can purchase it. I will be making some phone calls tomorrow. I'm like you though, I'll keep them off the pastures for a few days to be safe.

[jaimebaker]

Our obnoxious yellow weed, just finishing its yearly appearance, is mustard. It's getting better year by year as we keep after it. I pay my son $0.01 for each one he pulls up by the roots. He made five bucks this year. :eek:

Yep, I've got that one too. That one is mainly in my smaller lot that has all the clover in it.

[chicamuxen1]

You need to change the CAUSE of the clover takeover. Overgrazing a field is the most common cause of clover expansion. Grasses store their energy used for growth in the lower 2-5 inches of stem/leaf. When you allow grazing (or mowing) to shorten the grass down into these lower inches then the grass growth is severly impacted, often causing a die off of the desired grasses. This is why you can reseed orchard grass or timothy into small fields again and again and yet little of the grass survives. Clover stores it's energy in the roots, so low grazing or mowing doesn't affect it. As you grasses struggle to grow the clover will take over.

I sat thru an excellent seminar done by an Ag guy who's specialty was horse properties and learned stuff I had never heard from any other speaker. As he said, most horse properties today have too little acreage for the number of horses. I've quit buying pasture see mixes and have switched to Max Q fescue for my small paddocks. It doesn't have the type of endophyte that is problematic for horses, but it does have an endophyte which makes it more drought tolerant and hardy. It's much hardier than other grasses except for the old style fescue. It's very palatable, unlike the other fescue, holds up well to traffic and is slowly establishing itself well in the small paddocks that I have.

I'd suggest reading up on Max Q and seeding it into your fields this fall.

chicamuxen

[jaimebaker]

chica, thanks for the info. Overgrazing is definitely NOT the problem. It's 2 horses on 7 acres. They can't even keep up with it. None of my pastures are overgrazed actually since I have more than adequate room for everyone (we have 140 acres). I have all of my horses in pairs with the smallest pasture for one of the pairs being 5 acres. And again, the clover is everywhere here. Including my own front yard (no horses).

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=jaimebaker;4125923]I'm <THIS> close to doing that. Wonder what a controlled burn would do????


you'd never get the clover dry enough,we burn some thatch crops at the end of the winter and the clovers in the fields are not even wilted...


Apparently all that can grow in clay is clover:lol: And some other funky yellow flowered weed.

sheeps sorrel perhaps? another who could use a good dose of roundup...your ground is very very sweet to grow clover...you are lucky in that...for the 24D to really work and do any good you have to have plants under 3 inches..and for sorrel...by the time you see the flowers it's wayyyyyyyy too late:lol:

you may can mow low and then spray about 2 days later....strip spraying may not look pretty but if you are wanting to be done with it...that's where you start...


or get sheep;)

best

[MikeP]

The problem with Roundup is that it kills everything it contacts, desirable grass included.

There are a number of selective herbicides available that will kill broadleaf weeds and clovers without hurting grass. You can get a list of such chemicals from your County Agent.

[jaimebaker]

I looked into that Forefront product today and that really sounds like the ticket. Kills weeds, not grass, and horses can even be out there while it's sprayed (not going to do that though). I'm going to go check prices on Monday.

I'm going to do sections at a time though and see what happens. At this point, even if it killed everything it touched, I wouldn't really care. Better way to get those horses on a diet:lol:

[jaimebaker]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...so I've been researching a bit and found some cool info. It says if you see clover taking over your soil is nitrogen depleted. I shall be calling the Ag extension office next week to discuss. It also says that you can use sugar, corn gluten, or white vinegar to control it. Sounds too late to do the sugar or corn gluten, but I may try the white vinegar. None of those would hurt the horses anyway would it?? Hell, I could try them all and see what works. I've got plenty in the front yard to do some testing on:D

[MikeP]

Sugar, corn gluten and white vinegar, (if that even works) in sufficient amounts to do anything would cost about 50X what any decent herbicide would cost, to say nothing of the difficulty in putting it out.

Forefront, Weedmaster, or several other dafe, available herbicides will do just fine.

[Janet]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...so I've been researching a bit and found some cool info. It says if you see clover taking over your soil is nitrogen depleted. I shall be calling the Ag extension office next week to discuss.
In that case it should be self correcting, since clover is nitrogen-fixing.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Easy fix. Plant buttercups. :(

Still wish I could find a way to get rid of those. :sigh:

[Janet]

Easy fix. Plant buttercups. :(

Still wish I could find a way to get rid of those. :sigh:
Yes- I'd MUCH rather have clover (which is both palatable and nutritious) than buttercups, which are non-palatable and mildly toxic.

[jaimebaker]

Oh, I've got the buttercups too:( The creeping ones (I assume that's what you all are talking about).

So you think white vinegar would be more expensive than herbicide??? I did a test spot with it today to see what happened but I still plan on getting the Forefront and doing the 30 acres that my horses are on. I've got enough sections split off I can rotate them as I do this. My luck I'll look out and there won't be anything but dirt left once the herbicide kicks in. It's that bad. Thank you all again for the excellent advice.

[Janet]

What I don't understand is why you want to get rid of the clover in the first place.

[jaimebaker]

What I don't understand is why you want to get rid of the clover in the first place.

Because there is more clover than grass. And because I battle weight issues with the two horses on this particular pasture ALL YEAR. I don't want clover, I want grass. I don't mind a little here and there but as I mentioned earlier, I'm talking 60% of a 7-8 acre pasture is nothing but clover. I'm over it. I don't think folks understand quite how much clover I'm talking about.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Clover is often prolific at this time of year, but in another month, it dies back. With 2 horses on 5 acres, I don't see how ANY type of grass will not make your horses too fat.

I have 7 horses on 7 acres of 75% buttercups. They are out about 16 hours per day. My horses eat about 3 lbs (one tiny flake or even half a flake) of hay per day, + 1/4 - 2 pounds of grain to make them happy at mealtimes, and eat any supplements. They are all in good weight, with a few a bit too fat. My pasture has not been seeded, limed or fertilized in over 25 years. I can't imagine wanting more/better grass. That is 1 horse per acre of poor pasture. They are Warmbloods, TBs, and Qhs.

[jaimebaker]

This hasn't been seeded or fertilized in probably that long either. I think folks aren't reading all of my posts:confused: So, I'll repeat some stuff. I'm going to split this pasture in half in a couple of weeks and cut them down to about 3-4 acres (one side is poor, one side is good, they'll be on the poor side).

But as a side note, I have my other horses on the same amount of pasture...maybe an acre or two less. The difference is, those pastures aren't overrun with clover. And those horses are in good weight, not fat. My horses are broken into pairs, with each pair being on 5 acres, except for these two fatties who have a bit more room. They're arabs to so they have a propensity for fatness but I don't have a problem with the other 4 and their ample pastures. Just these on this clover pasture. I just want it gone and rest of the weeds taken care of as well.

[Janet]

My only concern is that the cure may be worse than the disease.

If you DO get rid of the clover, you may find it replaced by something WORSE.

[Tamara in TN]

Just these on this clover pasture. I just want it gone and rest of the weeds taken care of as well.


roundup....roundup...roundup

:)

best

[jaimebaker]

My only concern is that the cure may be worse than the disease.

If you DO get rid of the clover, you may find it replaced by something WORSE.

I totally realize that. Willing to take my chances even if I need to spray every spring and fall.


Tamara, my only issues with the roundup is how long do horses have to stay off of it?

[lorilu]

not really about the clover, but other annual weeds can be controlled by mowing beofre they set seeds.... no seeds for next year.

clover, however, has a REALLY tough seed that persists in the ground for years.

ANyway, that's what i am doing to control the flowering weeds I have in the bahia.

L

[jaimebaker]

not really about the clover, but other annual weeds can be controlled by mowing beofre they set seeds.... no seeds for next year.

clover, however, has a REALLY tough seed that persists in the ground for years.

ANyway, that's what i am doing to control the flowering weeds I have in the bahia.

L

I need to find a good site or book on pasture management that gives me timelines for stuff like that. I'm willing to do the work, just need the knowledge to know when this crap is going to seed and the best time to start 'controlling' it:yes:

[jaimebaker]

Thought I would report back with my vinegar experiment. Yesterday I decided to do two experiments. One was pouring a small amount of vinegar over a large patch of clover and some creeping buttercup. The buttercup is still alive, but the clover is deader than a doornail. I also lightly sprayed some vinegar on another patch of clover to see if the vinegar indeed had to be in the soil or if it could just touch the plant with a light spray and do anything. Yet again, a giant patch of dead clover. It also killed any other weeds around it except for the creeping buttercup. Who knows, maybe that will die by tomorrow. Not sure if it would kill the grass though as well but it sure knocked that clover out. Very interesting and certainly safe:yes:

[deltawave]

Interesting. It probably impacts the soil pH considerably, so keep that in mind before you try and plant anything else in those spots. :)

[jaimebaker]

Interesting. It probably impacts the soil pH considerably, so keep that in mind before you try and plant anything else in those spots. :)

Yea, I figured that which is why I did my second experiment by only lightly misting the leaves...not enough to even get in the soil. Still killed it.:yes:

[Janet]

Yea, I figured that which is why I did my second experiment by only lightly misting the leaves...not enough to even get in the soil. Still killed it.:yes:
But , unless you are going to go around and collect them before they hit the ground, the dead venegar covered leaves will fall on the ground and contribute at least a little bit to acidity of the soil.

[MikeP]

Yea, I figured that which is why I did my second experiment by only lightly misting the leaves...not enough to even get in the soil. Still killed it.:yes:

I think what you've done is burnt the leaves back, via contact. "Killed it" is doubtful. Vinegar is acid. Acid, in strong enough concentrations burns living tissue. Give it a week and you'll see the clover roots sending up some new leaves.

How much vinegar did you apply to a square foot of clover? Multiply that amount by 43,560 and that's how much you'll need to treat an acre. Two quarts of Weedmaster herbicide, in 16 gallons of water will treat an acre and leave the grass unharmed. Enough vinegar to burn the clover back will burn your grass at the same time.

[Tamara in TN]

I totally realize that. Willing to take my chances even if I need to spray every spring and fall.
Tamara, my only issues with the roundup is how long do horses have to stay off of it?

10 days to be sure...but you are only trying for big patches to let something else come up later...your ground is very sweet...or the clover will not be there...you can kill this now and in the heat of the summer let some summer annuals pop up in it's place..crabgrass or some such...

the rain cannot last forever...even if that is what it feels like now...;)
next year bust out some 24D before the stuff is 3 inches high...that might be all the way in march for me and you but it has to be done early on...

best

[jaimebaker]

10 days to be sure...but you are only trying for big patches to let something else come up later...your ground is very sweet...or the clover will not be there...you can kill this now and in the heat of the summer let some summer annuals pop up in it's place..crabgrass or some such...

the rain cannot last forever...even if that is what it feels like now...;)
next year bust out some 24D before the stuff is 3 inches high...that might be all the way in march for me and you but it has to be done early on...

best


Yep, I believe this was the main problem. By the time I realize it was a problem it was a PROBLEM. I HAVE to start earlier next year to get a hold on it.

I'm going to go get some Forefront tomorrow and begin the tackling this week. Oh joy.

[Montanas_Girl]

This book would be a great refernce for any COTHers in the Southeast seeking help with pasture maintenance:
http://ppi-store.stores.yahoo.net/forages.html

We used it as one of the textbooks for my undergraduate Forages class. It is very user friendly and has excellent photographs to help with plant identification.

[cssutton]

I can not understand why anyone would not be happy with clover in a horse pasture.

It is good for horses.

That said, the clover is doing better than the grass for one reason and that is that there is a low nitrogen level.

Too late to do it this way this year, but if you will sock the nitrogen to it next fall, maybe the very first week in September and then do it again the middle or end of October, at the rate of 500 lbs of 10-10-10 per acre on each application, the grass will put down good roots and build up for a real strong growth next spring.

By handling it this way, you will have a lot more grass than clover, but you will still have enough clover to be beneficial to the horses.

If you spray the clover, you will lose most of it.

It is too late to fertilize cool season grasses, so wait until fall.

For me, I want all the clover I can get in my pasture. Every fall, I over seed crimson and various strains of ladino.

I feed only enough grain to keep them coming when called. I feed hay only in January and early February except for the hay bags in the trailer when I travel and there is no show horse that looks better.

OF course, I live in NC on the VA border. Farther north would certainly require more days of hay in the winter.

CSSJR

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=cssutton;4143824]I can not understand why anyone would not be happy with clover in a horse pasture.
It is good for horses.


until of course, it runs the risk of killing them from founder...then it might as well be kudzu or jimweed... we also kill all we can in the horse hays as it drops the retail value by more than half....

Jamie, it just occured to me today,you can have a big disk run right now by a nice local farmer if you got one... then you can pop what clover grows back with 24 D and it would fall under the 3 inch limit...it's not a practical application for fields great big like ours...but you might have a shot at it...with crab grass and such filling in in a volunteer way til frost....

also call Dr Gary Bates at UT plant and soil sciences (you'll have to say the whole part there to get the right guy)and see what ideas he has...

main number 865 974 1000 and then have them at the switch board connect you....you tell him first Calvin and Tamara say hello (we've done science stuff together for near 15 years) and then ask him about this...

and what ever you do don't call him Dr....his head will swell up frightful big and he'll be hell for the rest of us to live with :lol:;)

best

[cssutton]

Like global warming.....

Everyone can prove his side of it.

There are those who say clover will cause laminitus and those who think it does not.

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.safergrass.org/articles/safergrasses.html

Note that grass can be more dangerous than clover under certain growing conditions.

The real problem is that most people do not pay any attention to their horses on pasture.

CSSJR

[cssutton]

Another interesting link:

http://www.safergrass.org/articles/safergrasses.html