Trying horses with no trainer

[zahena]

What would COTH do?

I have recently been contacted about my horse for sale by a young girl. She rides at a barn down the street from us that is known for turning out nice riders. Since my barn is listed on my ad, her dad stopped by last night (unannounced) to look at my beast.

Now she wants to come and try him out. My beast is a little strong and forward sometimes. Nothing I don't think a kid can handle because my own students ride him from time to time.

My question is, do I let her come try my horse without her trainer? I know her trainer (and really like her trainer) but it would seem thus far that they aren't using the trainer to locate their new (and presuambly first) horse.

My initial reaction is to say "no". Thoughts?

[shawneeAcres]

What I would do is ask the Dad to please have their trainer call you so you can discuss the sutiability of this horse to her level of riding experience prior to her trying the horse, that is all. Put the ball in their court.

[zahena]

That's a great idea. Thanks Shawnee!!!

She does have an ideal set-up for him. Potential buyers are building their own place out in the country and he'd have full pasture turn-out. I'll give her a call later on today because we go way back and I respect her judgement on horses and riders.

[IsolaBella09]

Ditto calling the trainer.

If I were in the situation I would want the trainer to come out as well as her father. Especially if the girl is under 18.

[mbmarsh]

Waiiiiiiit a cotton pickin' second here.......is it possible that they might be considering leaving their trainer, and hence are looking for a new horse? Or is it possible they don't want to pay a commission to a trainer, and are thus looking on their own? Or maybe Dad thinks he can judge whether the horse is suitable or not.....

There are a lot of reasons they might be looking without involving their trainer, and if you try to go around them, you might end up with some very irritated customers, who might be so irked they decide not to buy your horse. I understand that's not the worst that can happen, but they could also decide to tell their friends and acquaintances that you meddled in a private situation by bringing in a third party.

If you aren't letting anybody try the horse without a trainer, then I would think your ad should mention that.

I have a trainer myself, but when I went looking for my horse, I went on my own, because I felt confident enough in my skills to find a horse for me. I would have been very angry if a seller had contacted my trainer to let them know I was looking - not because it was a secret, but because it's my business, and I should be able to choose whether or not to bring in the trainer.


Just another thought before we go jumping off the deep end.....

[zahena]

They actually are leaving the trainer. Not because of any issues like not liking her but simply because they are moving out of town. However, she is planning on using this horse with her current trainer for the next several months. They have bought a piece of land in the country which is far out and they will change trainers once they move.

Honestly, I'm not too keen on people trying horses without trainers because (no offense intended) people sometimes see a horse and go "oh pretty" and don't think to ask questions. Not saying that this is the case here or that anyone else has done that but we are dealing with a minor as well. My horse is listed as not only a prospect but also a HOT prospect.

The trainer I use won't let people try without their trianer being present for safety reasons and she never has listed it in her ads. She just assumes if you are dropping cash on a horse, you want the opinion of a respected professional.

[80s rider]

I agree about not getting their current trainer involved. If they wanted her help-they would have her with them. If they come out to try the horse-let them first watch someone else ride it. If they are still interested and the girl wants to ride it-first tell her you want her to get comfortable with the horse on the lunge line. This way you can see her style and level of riding before turning her loose on the horse. Offer for them to come for a second trial later in the week, and tell them to call you with any questions they have...

[shawneeAcres]

I did NOT suggest calling the trainer! Do not go behind their back on this, approach the FATHER and ask HIM to have trainer call you. That way you jsut come across as wanting to insure that this is a potential match before setting up an appointment.

[Anyplace Farm]

No. The only reason why I would not let her try the horse w/o her trainer is because it is a waste of your time. Even if they try the horse and things go swimmingly and say they really, really want the horse, guess what, it ain't over till the trainer gives their blessing. Then, you have to go thru that whole drill all over again.

[mbmarsh]

I disagree - there are lots of people who buy horses on their own without a trainer involved. *Obviously, I include myself in this equation* :) If you aren't comfortable letting her try without A trainer involved, ask the trainer at your barn if they would mind keeping an eye on things. That way, if they see anything unsafe or scary going on, they can step in.

I realize we're talking about a minor here, but I'm assuming her father would be present as well, in which case that concern is covered. Now, I certainly would NOT let her try the horse without her father or her mother or her trainer present (read - some responsible adult already attached to her). But if Dad's along, and Dad's going to write the check, I don't understand what the issue is. You can always stop the trial if something is going wrong, and make sure everybody is safe.

I just get riled up by the suggestion that people spending their own hard-earned money have to first consult with another person (who usually wants a cut - let's not start that discussion:) ) before making a decision.

[dmalbone]

I don't think there's anything wrong at ALL with letting them come without their trainer. If this was a person you didn't know and didn't even know if they had a trainer, would you deny them the possibility of purchasing your horse? It's quite frankly their money and if they're not even going to be staying with this trainer that's even more reason not to "require" it. I've been riding for 15 years and if someone told me I needed my trainer with me to try a horse I would laugh at them and say forget it. Now, if she's under 18, it's perfectly 100% ok (and you should) require a parent there. That's a given. In my opinion, especially if someone is taking the initiative and responsibility of building horse facilities at their house and moving out on their own, they are more than capable of deciding whether to purchase a horse. As far as coming back with a trainer, I've never been scoffed at when I wanted to look at a horse twice. There have been numerous times when I've looked at horses first by myself to see if I thought they were even worth (not in the literal sense... but whether I clicked with them enough) to even get my trainer involved.

[Giddy-up]

How would I handle it? Let them come try the horse as I would any potential buyer. Not my business if they choose to involve or not involve their trainer.

[shawneeAcres]

I disagree - there are lots of people who buy horses on their own without a trainer involved. *Obviously, I include myself in this equation* :) If you aren't comfortable letting her try without A trainer involved, ask the trainer at your barn if they would mind keeping an eye on things. That way, if they see anything unsafe or scary going on, they can step in.

I realize we're talking about a minor here, but I'm assuming her father would be present as well, in which case that concern is covered. Now, I certainly would NOT let her try the horse without her father or her mother or her trainer present (read - some responsible adult already attached to her). But if Dad's along, and Dad's going to write the check, I don't understand what the issue is. You can always stop the trial if something is going wrong, and make sure everybody is safe.

I just get riled up by the suggestion that people spending their own hard-earned money have to first consult with another person (who usually wants a cut - let's not start that discussion:) ) before making a decision.

I would never deny a person ths right to look at a horse without a trainer HOWEVER, when it is a child involved I feel MUCH more comfortable at least talking to the trainer before the kid gets on my horse. Mommy and Daddy often do not have a realistic view of what Janie can do! Many times I have been assured by the parents that the child is a competent "intermediate" rider when in fact they were barely above a complete beginner level! And if the horse is at all a challenge I'd want to cover my bases. I still say to suggest to Dad that the trainer call and just discuss "Janies" abilities and what she is wanting to do with the horse in the future. Might just save the OP from a potentially disasterous test ride!!

[Trixie]

Mommy and Daddy often do not have a realistic view of what Janie can do!

This may be true, but if I were that parent I sure wouldn't purchase a horse from someone who insinuated that I'm ignorant or that I don't know what I'm doing.

I would be a bit leery of dad coming in unannounced, or the minor coming without parents, however.

Perhaps ask them if they've discussed horse with trainer and what she thinks of horse.

[zahena]

I will talk to dad. I have a feeling that they may show up again tonight because the girl has her lesson at 3 but I won't be there until 5:30. Since its only like a quarter mile apart, its not unlikely they will stop by again, unnannouced.

Personally, if I am dropping a chunk of change on a living, breathing animal that I plan on spending more than a little time with, I'm more than happy to pay a trainer their fee for their honest opinion of said animal. I am a trainer myself, and the current trainer of this animal but I feel that her trainer will know her strengths/weakness and be able to also get the most benefit from her trial time with my horse.

The funny part about him just dropping in is that I had started pulling his mane before my lessons and had to stop to teach. So he had half a pulled mane, half a long mane. Oops! So much for first impressions!

[Anyplace Farm]

I disagree - there are lots of people who buy horses on their own without a trainer involved. *Obviously, I include myself in this equation* :) If you aren't comfortable letting her try without A trainer involved, ask the trainer at your barn if they would mind keeping an eye on things. That way, if they see anything unsafe or scary going on, they can step in.

I realize we're talking about a minor here, but I'm assuming her father would be present as well, in which case that concern is covered. Now, I certainly would NOT let her try the horse without her father or her mother or her trainer present (read - some responsible adult already attached to her). But if Dad's along, and Dad's going to write the check, I don't understand what the issue is. You can always stop the trial if something is going wrong, and make sure everybody is safe.

I just get riled up by the suggestion that people spending their own hard-earned money have to first consult with another person (who usually wants a cut - let's not start that discussion:) ) before making a decision.
Oh, no, trust me - I'm all for people looking at horses without their trainers. I've never bought one with a trainer. However, we aren't the trainer. The trainer doesn't like the client going to look at horses without them. While I did encourage clients of mine to look at horses without me and to bring me into the mix when they thought they had one they wanted to close on, yes, they brought me in for the final say. It wasn't a rule, they appreciated my advice. And no, they didn't pay me a commission for that advice so there was no motivator for me except that they got something they liked.

When I sold horses in the past and anyone called, I first asked if they had a trainer and if so, I asked if they could come with their trainer. I worked a full time job in addition to doing the horse thing which meant weekends were best for people looking at horses. But we were at shows every weekend so we had to make optimal use of that time. Plenty of people look at horses without their trainers. However, they always want to have the trainer come out after that because trust me, the trainer has told them, "That's great that you like Dobbin but I'd like to see you on Dobbin." They don't care that daddy is signing the check.

[Hunter Mom]

However, if you have a relationship with the trainer, you may have to consider the impact on your relationship with them, too.

[zahena]

Well exactly. the girl is looking for him for a hunter barn, and he's not a hunter. could he go out there and fake a hunter round or two? sure. Sure he could. But he's also green to jumping and will require a lot of time and attention.

This would make the first horse I've sold in this market and I don't want to get a "reputation" for overmounting someone just to move my bag of bones.

I do like the idea of putting her on a lunge line first to see how she rides. I did have someone come try him who was hopelessly overmounted on him and he packed her around like a champ but he's still a tad unpredictable!

[Mythology]

If the horse is green enough to require the rider to have a trainer than the trainer needs to be present. I, as a trainer, rider, and breeder, am very leerie of parents and kids trying out green show horses w/o their pro present. In fact if I don't believe the rider or their parent is functional enough to ride and train the horse in question I simply tell them I need to speak to their trainer so we can discuss riding style and the pontential match. If it's a beginner horse or an experienced rider, obviously I don't need a pro, but you get the idea. If they choose to purchase elswhere thats fine by me. I will try to put my horse in the best situation possible. If the riders parents are going behing their trainers back to avoid commissions, then will they go behind their back to find a "cheaper" farrier or vet? We all know how wonderful cut rate "professionals" can be for horses. If the trainer sends a novice child and novice parent out on their own to find a sutable horse- then maybe the professional trainer isn't so professional. It takes a knowlage of conformation, bloodlines, riding type and style, among other things to match a horse and rider- Asking a novice to have all that info under their belt is asking for trouble.

[Ibex]

Since you're a trainer yourself, do you have a school horse you could put her on to try and better assess her skills before you put her on the greenie?

As an *adult* I looked at quite a few horses without my trainer, mostly to weed out the ones I really didn't want. I'm a grade A chicken****, so she wasn't too worried about me getting in over my head :lol:

[woodhillsmanhattan]

If they are serious, live close to where your horse is located, she comes with a parent, and signs a liability waver then I don't see why not. You will be able to tell right away if the horse will be to much for her. If she is capable I don't see why she can't do a "test drive", especially if you and the father are there, to see if she likes your horse. A lot of times when I had been horse shopping I would go with my mom and ride the horse around on the flat to see if I liked it. Or would get a lesson with the owner/trainer/BO if they offered. It cost money to bring a trainer to try a horse. Or at least in my case it did, I think we would pay for a lesson or something. No use wasting the trainers time if you know you don't enjoy the horse. There are some things as a rider and potential owner that I want in a horse and can tell on my own that I don't need the trainer for.

[gottagrey]

I would have a frank discussion w/ the father about the horse and ask him about the trainer thing. I would be furious if I was looking for horse and a seller contacted my trainer about a horse I was looking at. I knew a young teen who bought & leased 3 horses her trainer found for her - why 3 because they were all unsound! So she went looking on her own - found a great horse. Trainer did not even so much as look at a photo of horse and wanted a 10% "finders fee" that is BS. They paid full board on an empty stall for 6 months while they looked for a horse... needless to say that horse never set foot on that trainer's property.

I am no professional; have not had nearly the riding time in the saddle that many people have. I went off to Ireland by myself to buy a horse and guess what I got a really nice horse - all by myself thanks to lots of time watching/studying Rodney Jenkins video!).

[Jersey Fresh]

I just skimmed some of the responses, so forgive me if someone else said this already, but maybe she is taking the first peak without the trainer and then planning on bringing him/her next time? I had to do this because of timing when I tried my guy-trainer was leaving for a horse show and not gettign back until after the horse's owner left for 3 weeks. So I went and tried him, videoed it and then we went back later after she watched the video and talked to the seller. Worked out fine for me (granted the seller was a friend my trainers...)

[findeight]

Little issue here is the horse is green, needs a fairly good rider and is not a Hunter when the people are looking for a Hunter. And the people's current trainer is less then a mile away, almost a neighbor.

Not going to be any way that current trainer won't know they are looking, if nothing else, young teens like to brag to the other kids they ride with. Parents share with other parents too.

Looking without a trainer is fine IF buyers are on the level and IF their rider/kid/themselves ride at the level the horse is at.

I am thinking OP has some question about the kids ability and suitability of this horse for this kid and the purpose they wish to use it for. OP does not wish to overmount an unknown child at a trial and spend 2 weeks reschooling to remove any setbacks caused by an unqualified rider.

OP also would like to preserve friendly and professional relationship with other trainer and avoid presenting the impression she is supporting other trainer clients going behind their backs to avoid commission then dumping a possibly unsuitable horse back with the trainer who was not consulted.

If buyer here is contemplating taking the horse back to the current trainer without consulting her on it's purchase? And it is probably not suitable?

Good luck with that one but, as seller, you may set any condition of trying the horse you wish. Including the buyer at least telling current trainer what they are doing. I would not call her though, ask Dad to enlighten her and suggest he get her opinion on a horse going back to her barn.

[zahena]

Well, I'm thinking that this won't work for my horse because they place he's headed he would be added into their lesson program. Is this typical? You board a horse somewhere and they add them to their lesson program?

He'd also be turned out with 50 other horses. He's a skinny boy and is on a certain feed that keeps him chubby and happy. That would end as well. So for my personal taste, I don't feel that these people are right for him right now.

They are planning on leaving their current barn at the end of the summer and he'd leave then. But by then he'd be a mental case (he's not good in lessons, we've tried) and skinny. So maybe they just call me at the end of summer!

[zahena]

Little issue here is the horse is green, needs a fairly good rider and is not a Hunter when the people are looking for a Hunter. And the people's current trainer is less then a mile away, almost a neighbor.

Not going to be any way that current trainer won't know they are looking, if nothing else, young teens like to brag to the other kids they ride with. Parents share with other parents too.

Looking without a trainer is fine IF buyers are on the level and IF their rider/kid/themselves ride at the level the horse is at.

I am thinking OP has some question about the kids ability and suitability of this horse for this kid and the purpose they wish to use it for. OP does not wish to overmount an unknown child at a trial and spend 2 weeks reschooling to remove any setbacks caused by an unqualified rider.

OP also would like to preserve friendly and professional relationship with other trainer and avoid presenting the impression she is supporting other trainer clients going behind their backs to avoid commission then dumping a possibly unsuitable horse back with the trainer who was not consulted.

If buyer here is contemplating taking the horse back to the current trainer without consulting her on it's purchase? And it is probably not suitable?

Good luck with that one but, as seller, you may set any condition of trying the horse you wish. Including the buyer at least telling current trainer what they are doing. I would not call her though, ask Dad to enlighten her and suggest he get her opinion on a horse going back to her barn.

What Find Eight said. Elegantly put as always FindEight! And yes, this is exactly all my fears.... I've seen an adult beginner try him and while he was very accomodating because he is trained he kept looking at me like "Mom, what the eff?" It was very uncomfortable watching her bang around on my horses back and smack him in the mouth. Especially since he has a VERY sensitive mouth!

[unclewiggly]

Its going to bite you back no matter how you play it out.
Recent experiance w/ a similiar situation will explain.
Lovely young teen calls about a horse for sale, gives me trainers name makes appointment, arrives w/ friend n parent no trainer. They video taped and digital photographed about 4 horses and rode 3. I had Hold Harmless signed by all after I queried about riding skills and watched a test ride on the easist horse.
They drove hours back home and later called that night blasting me. Trainers tells them I showed them lame cripped horses w/ multiple leg issues visible to naked eye. I was speechelss, these were spotless as in virgin clean legged straight correct horses. All eminently suitable for her discipline. I sent back my own photos crisp n clear tight shots of horses legs. Get another call few days later from parent apologizing for trainer blast thanked me for photos they wanted to proceed w/ a vetting. Horse vetted out n x-rayed 100% and when buyer asked his vet about the trainers queries over the grossly obvious leg infirmaties he looked @ the buyer like he had 3 heads.
Horse arrives a BNT barn and she eats crow.Student rides horse and she eats bigger crow.
So 2 more young ladies from same barn arrive a week later wanting to try 2-3 more young prospects hot off their friends find. Show them horses same thing trainer flips out and forbids them to buy again big clean sound suitable horse. Says same thing (sold one of those a week later and he also x-rayed n vetted out)
But trainer is also to involved to actually come see the horses for herself or call me. And frankly I have not the time or inclination to call her or pony up $$ to "Let" her students buy my horses. This is such BS. Why is it that competant people have to be held hostage to a trainers approval. The Trainer will get the board, lessons, and show expenses and if the horse does not work out she isn't going to be blamed. Whats is the problem? It is a MAJOR issue in this business. People worry about graft and greed in politics but in the horse selling/buying businness we are still the Wild Wild West. To be held hostage time n time again for someone elses approval that is really a bank deposit blows my mind. Yes of course suitability and "Right" for the discipline needs to be addressed, but if you are not a novice and have a competant vet of your choice doing your vetting where does the trainer have the right to reject your selection. They don't pick your car or school?? But love to pick your wallet.
So Rip Me a New One, I Feel It Coming

[zahena]

Actually UncleWiggly it sounds like perhaps the TRAINER was the one with no clue. I mean, let's face it. For every ONE competent trainer out there, there's about 5 who are totally clueless. It sounds like you fell victim to one of those who has no idea and no clue. And they were probably trying to steer their people away so that they could try to find a horse for their client and make their money!!!!!

I actually know this trainer and i know she knows her stuff. And she knows us. We're neighbors and we compete at the same shows and come to each other schooling shows so I'm comfortable with her, but maybe not the set-up for my particular horses' personality.

that sucks that you had such a crap experience. Selling horses is a trip sometimes!!!

[findeight]

Well IMO there is just so much more going on here then the issue of another trainer's presence. Z does not think this horse is going to fit the program where he is going, knows it is not the Hunter the Dad said he was in the market for and questions the suitability for a child of unknown ability.

And, yes, some barns kick something off the board if an owner allows it's use as a lesson horse. If buyer wants a green, touchy, hard keeper that gets strong to go into a lesson program for anybody the other trainer deems fit to ride as well as turn out with 50 others? And other trainer thinks it's a good idea? I got a bunch more questions about other trainer's program.

OP also knows that, as a trainer/seller she will get blamed if it does not work out.

Z...can you arrange a lesson or evaluation BEFORE kid tries horse? You know darn well kid will fall in love with it, especially if it is a first horse, and that is what it sounds like.

Other then that. it boils down to how bad you want to sell it.

[zahena]

Well, F8, that depends on the day! LOL! Monday I'd have given him away because he was such a turd but yesterday I'd be hard pressed to sell him. He's still green, and he's still a project. But he's still MINE you know? And currently I'm faced with being out of work in a month and so my decision is split. Sell him so I'm not stressed with paying for his shoes and other expenses or keep him and have a project (and some FUN!) over the summer.

And the hard part about my horse is he's really pretty flashy and has an interesting personality so he's pretty easy to fall in love with. So I guess it boils down to ME needing to get my arse off the fence and decide.

But as it stands right now, I'm not keen on where he's headed and the situation he's in. Tidy and I talked about this situation and it does boil down to me being the only advocate he has. I love his big butt even if we don't always click when it comes to riding.

Plus, I have some other people lined up to check him out this weekend too. And it's an eventing barn which is more suited to his style. He LOVES eventing. He's calm and quiet and almost a different horse in the eventing field. I'm not really keen on eventing and he baby sat ME, even being green, on the eventing field. I just sat in 2 point, grabbed mane and told him he had to take care of it. And he did. Every time!

[findeight]

OK, Z, tell Dad you are not comfortable his DD is able to handle this green and sometimes erratic horse. That's fair and reasonable for a seller who has a child of unknown ability wanting to come to try a horse. You need more information about that kid, plain and simple. An evaluation lesson at a discounted rate is not a bad idea or, if they do not want that, you probably do need to ask that they involve the other trainer who will be adding this horse to her lesson program.

BUT, Z, he needs to go since you will have an income issue soon. Not fair to take on a "project" when you know money will be tight and somebody might take him and give him a good home.

See of you can nuture and negotiate a deal with the Eventing people or see if they cannot help you get him sold.

When a Professional trainer is the seller, it's a little different then two private individuals engaging in a private sale. If her gut feeling as a Pro is the horse is not suited for Dad, DD and the other trainer's lesson program? The right thing to do is ascertain the kid's ability, the suitablity of that horse for a lesson program and get those questions answered before any trial. Or just say no.

Like I said, this is about alot more then looking without a trainer.

One other thought...how would you all feel if you were the other trainer? Had a client buy one without your input knowing it would go into your lesson program and you would need to use it as a lesson horse multiple times weekly? And they showed up with a hard keeping, green, erratic TB better suited as something else????

[Trixie]

One other thought...how would you all feel if you were the other trainer? Had a client buy one without your input knowing it would go into your lesson program and you would need to use it as a lesson horse multiple times weekly? And they showed up with a hard keeping, green, erratic TB better suited as something else????

Were I that trainer, I would not allow use of the horse in my lesson program. My client would either have to show up with a suitable horse or pay the full non-reduced board rate.

Z, I'm sure you can make it abundently clear to dad that this horse is not suited to be used in a lesson program or he will become unsafe for all parties to handle.

[zahena]

Well here's how it works at their barn. You bring your horse to be boarded. Said horse is turned out with like 50 other horses all day every day with minimal pasture. No place to hide from the Texas elements (rain, wind, humidity, etc). Lesson horses are saddled every day, tied to a tree and made to wait for someone to come ride them. Person rides, horse goes back to being tied to tree waiting next ride.

Now, if you OWN a horse there, your horse is put into lessons NO MATTER WHAT. You have to reserve your own time to ride your own horse. :eek: I think they would probably push him through lessons no matter what.

Dad hasn't called me back to try him just yet, but I'm thinking that I just tell him that he needs to either look elsewhere or wait until his new property is ready to buy my horse. Or even look at him. I know the program, and I know they turn out nice riders but I do like the idea of her taking an evualtion with me first to see if she can handle my beast. i've used him with my advanced girls but I know my advanced girls can handle my horse. I see them all the time. The dad has actually spoken to me about moving to our barn and riding with us and keeping my horse with us until his place is ready, but I almost feel like that'd be client grabbing. Even though we do take lots of their students who are ready to move to the next level.

I'm more willing to work with the eventing trainer because she's a trainer and she's known by our eventing trainer. Our barns' eventing trainer has vouched for her as a trainer and that her girls are strong and competent riders. And that he'll get the best care.

And F8, you're right. He does need to go. I know he needs to go. I just wanted to find him a good "match". Might make me a little neurotic but I feel its my duty as a horse trainer and lover to find him the right spot. But I know that no one here will dispute that one with me! LOL! Plus our barn has PLENTY of other horses I can ride to scratch my riding itch. And my own personal trainer (offsite) oftens texts me to go ride a few of her AA quality horses so I'll never be at a lack for something to ride and love!

[findeight]

Lesson horses are saddled every day, tied to a tree and made to wait for someone to come ride them. Person rides, horse goes back to being tied to tree waiting next ride.

Now, if you OWN a horse there, your horse is put into lessons NO MATTER WHAT. You have to reserve your own time to ride your own horse. :eek: I think they would probably push him through lessons no matter what.

The dad has actually spoken to me about moving to our barn and riding with us and keeping my horse with us until his place is ready, but I almost feel like that'd be client grabbing. Even though we do take lots of their students who are ready to move to the next level.



That is NOT client grabbing, poaching or unwanted solicitation of other trainers clients. Something you need to learn as a Pro is to be aware most of your clients are coming from somebody else's barn. Maybe they just moved to your area but, most of the time, they are coming from another area trainer and people move all the time for all kinds of reasons. People are just not chained to their trainers nor should they be.

Dad may feel he does not want to put his own horse into a lesson program where his daughter needs to make an appointment to untie her own horse from that tree. Fact that is nuts (and I have tied some of mine to trees and lived in Texas) and one of the wierdest set ups for a serious H/J training barn I have ever heard of.

Dad may be looking for another training barn and I would not hesitate to leave that particular door open. There is good reason not to care for that crazy set up where clients are required to provide their horses for lessons with other riders...I don't care what gets knocked off the board. It should be optional, not required and no owner should ever, ever, ever have to make an appointment to ride their own horse.

Most trainers maintain good relationships with other trainers even when a client leaves to go to a competitor-fact of life. Dad came to you freely and may again.

[DancingQueen]

Not having read all but here's my thoughts.

I saw mentioned that she is in fact leaving her barn. Also that she might be moving to a barn less desirable?
In the end of the day it's neither here nor there. I find the original advice to ask the dad to stop by with the trainer, old or future is a nice gesture from one professional to another.

More importantly it will hopefully give you a good idea of wether the horse is a good fit for the kid, or could be in time in the right system. Meeting with the trainer or future caretaker of the horse, could be the parents if they are building a farm, will most likely give you a better idea of how things might work out in the future.

From a professional stand point it is obviously better to match a horse and rider well for the sake of reputation.
Outside of that also I think from a personal point of view that it is important to make sure that the horse ends up in a situation where he is happy. Once you assume responsibility for an animal you kind of want to make sure that he's going to be OK even if you have to part ways. Knowing that he will end up in a good program or with good owners who will extend the gesture once it comes time to sell him again is important at least to me.

That said, being part of a school program isn't nessecarily the worst thing that could happen to a horse as long as he is cared for properly, this particular one seems to perhaps not be the best one though.

In the end of the day, you might have to sell your horse and this might be the best option you have right now. If you are not in dire straights and have the opportunity to hold out for a buyer who will be able to provide a better home for your horse, then by all means do so.

Correct me if I'm wrong,
but I don't think that there's any obligation from an owner to sell a horse at all or even at a certain price just because it's publicly listed?
At least where I come from even an owner of a clothing store in a mall has the right to refuse a customer for pretty much no reason at all (as long as it's not based on race or sexual preferences).

[shawneeAcres]

I'm confused!! You are OK with this trainer but they TIE THEIR HORSES to TREES and use all boarders horses as school horses??!! Sorry but I wouldn't be selling any of my horses or my clients horses to a "trainer" that does this! I have school horses IF they do two lessons in one day that is a LOT!! And I have one that is owned by a student, was her former show hrose but she has another young horse and now I have a sitatuion worked out where she doesn't have to pay full board on two, but I use her former show horse for some lessons. She has NEVER been "tied to a tree" (not that I have any problem with tying BUT that smacks of hack line) and is used very infrequently for beginner lessons. I don't "require" boarders to let me use their horses, it is just this one could use a little work but not up to what owner wants to do. Sorry but no way they'd try or buy MY horse!

[DancingQueen]

I second findeights post.
This is not client grabbing as they solicited you. You can refuse them of course but they would go somewhere else.

If they say that they are interested in becoming your customers I would definitively have her do a few real lesson with you. Either on the horse she's interested in buying or on a schoolhorse. It will give them a chance to experience what you have to offer and you will get to take a look at the rider and feel the family out for how they will fit into your program and your barn in general.

They already have one foot on the highway so encourage them to become students with you first if you like them well enough. Perhaps lease them the horse for a month and then sell him to them.

This will also let you know if the dad is simply trying to chat you up for a better deal or if he's willing to put his money where his mouth is!

[drawreins]

I'm a professional as well and I've had situations like this arise before. Usually I ask them to have their trainer give me a call to dicuss further details. I have allowed riders to try horses without their trainer, however, the trainer has always contacted me first and usually I fill in as trainer for the student trying the horse if trainer can't make it.

[asterix]

Just a quick note from eventing land -- if you think the horse would thrive as an eventer, get someone at the eventing barn (or an eventing trainer they recommend) to take him to a local event. Prices for eventers are pretty low ball until they have BEEN to an event -- prove that the horse will actually go around and trot through the water, hop the logs, jump the tiny ditch and stay in the dressage ring, and you can start talking sale.
"Schooling" cross country is usually not sufficient unless you have video -- many of the biggest train wrecks I've ever seen have been while "schooling" ...
not to say that's what happened to you, quite the contrary, but get him out and around a local event or two and you can definitely open the door to that line of future homes....

[Giddy-up]

Well here's how it works at their barn. You bring your horse to be boarded. Said horse is turned out with like 50 other horses all day every day with minimal pasture. No place to hide from the Texas elements (rain, wind, humidity, etc). Lesson horses are saddled every day, tied to a tree and made to wait for someone to come ride them. Person rides, horse goes back to being tied to tree waiting next ride.

Now, if you OWN a horse there, your horse is put into lessons NO MATTER WHAT. You have to reserve your own time to ride your own horse. :eek: I think they would probably push him through lessons no matter what.

The dad has actually spoken to me about moving to our barn and riding with us and keeping my horse with us until his place is ready, but I almost feel like that'd be client grabbing. Even though we do take lots of their students who are ready to move to the next level.

Umm...perhaps they WANT to leave that barn? I would!! If the people are approaching you--that's not client grabbing. You aren't seeking them out, making any promises to get them to change barns, offering deals if they move, etc.... The horse world is a business & if they aren't happy with their current situation, no reason why they can't change. Clients aren't "owned" by their trainers.

[hollyhorse2000]

OP -- Do what is best for the horse. In the long run, that will be best for your pocketbook and your peace of mind. If he's not the right horse for this daughter/dad and trainer situation, then decline to get involved at all. There are lots of ways to demur -- horse is too green for young rider; horse is not a hunter; horse is being trained to be eventer; I am keeping horse a bit longer, etc. etc.

[zahena]

Well, update on the situation. He is coming tonight with his kid to try the horse out. We did talk and I told him that he's more than welcome to come try beasty but that I'm not comfortable with him going into a lesson program and that their barn may not be the best fit for him.

I do have to say I completely respect the other trainer where he would be going. Not trying to bad mouth her because she does turn out nice riders but she just has a way different way of doing business. She's always been kind and courteous to me in a somewhat unfriendly environment for me.

We have a contained round pen that I think I'll start her in and see. I rode him last night and he was good enough for anyone to ride and he gets better every time.

Asterik, I actually do have video of him XC schooling and I've posted it. Thats how I got play from the eventing barn. He LOVES being outdoors, and he loved the big, solid fences.

Thanks so much for all the advice y'all. This is tough for me. I'm not hard pressed to sell him but I'd like to move him as I have my eye on a horse that is more suited to my hunter/jumper style.

[FatDinah]

I think you should make the horse's welfare as the first priority. And I think if you read your own posts, you will see that this buyer (child/Dad) is not the right situation for him.