"Independence" in George Morris Ads

[Arathita]

Does anyone know the breeding and maybe history of the horse "Independence" that is featured in the George Morris/Premium Butet/Practical Horseman ad?
He looks so Baroque for a hunter and he really catches my eye. Thank you.

[Seven-up]

The article in this month's PH says he's owned by Kimberly Dunn and trained by Sandy Ferrell.

USEF says this: Breed: HOLSTEINER
Sire Name: CAROLUS I
Dam Name: HALANDA



And thanks for making me reread that article, because I was going to make a post asking what kind of saddle that was (it looks really comfy!) and it says it right there on the first page. :lol:

[Alterageous]

What issue of PH is this in? I'd like to see the article.

[equest]

What issue of PH is this in? I'd like to see the article.

It is the current June issue (I just received it a few days ago). Gorgeous!!

[Dirty Little Secret]

here's the saddle: http://www.beval.com/Products/Butet-Premium-Jumping-Saddle/4016002.aspx

and here's the article: http://www.beval.com/content/GeorgeMorrisPR.html

[Seven-up]

Maybe it'll make me ride like George. :winkgrin::lol:.....:no:

[LittleGray]

*sigh* all those dapples...he's so gorgeous...

[War Admiral]

Maybe it'll make me ride like George. :winkgrin::lol:.....:no:

:lol:

[vxf111]

He's adorable. I don't think he looks baroque, I think he looks like an oversized pony. He has the cutest little pony face.

I thought this when I first saw the Beval ad-- but does the saddle (in some shots) look like it's not an 100% fit to George? Anyone else think it looks like his knee is over the flap in some shots (and only on the right side?!) Could be an optical illusion or just a trick of the photos, but if I was Beval and I was paying George the big bucks to be in an ad-- I would want the saddle to look 110% perfect-- even if I had to make a custom one JUST for the ad-- I would want it to look PERFECT.

Also at least one of the billet keepers is undone and flapping-- looks sloppy to me.

This is nitpicky stuff and I would never comment about a person posting a general riding picture-- but this is GEORGE MORRIS and a set of adertising photos. If there's one time when everything should be perfect-- I would think this would be it!

I would have also style George in the rust breeches, but that's just me ;)

[Anyplace Farm]

He's adorable. I don't think he looks baroque, I think he looks like an oversized pony. He has the cutest little pony face.


Also at least one of the billet keepers is undone and flapping-- looks sloppy to me.


So funny because I thought the same thing about the horse. He is adorable and does look like a big pony. He's adorable.

And like you, I also saw that billet keeper flapping. I had to look away, though -- for George's sake. ;)

[BAC]

He's adorable. I don't think he looks baroque, I think he looks like an oversized pony. He has the cutest little pony face.

I thought this when I first saw the Beval ad-- but does the saddle (in some shots) look like it's not an 100% fit to George? Anyone else think it looks like his knee is over the flap in some shots (and only on the right side?!) Could be an optical illusion or just a trick of the photos, but if I was Beval and I was paying George the big bucks to be in an ad-- I would want the saddle to look 110% perfect-- even if I had to make a custom one JUST for the ad-- I would want it to look PERFECT.

Also at least one of the billet keepers is undone and flapping-- looks sloppy to me.

This is nitpicky stuff and I would never comment about a person posting a general riding picture-- but this is GEORGE MORRIS and a set of adertising photos. If there's one time when everything should be perfect-- I would think this would be it!

I would have also style George in the rust breeches, but that's just me ;)


I just emailed a friend this morning complaining about the same things, knee over the saddle in some photos and the billet strap hanging down, I would expect George to be more careful about that, if the billet strap is too short as they frequently are, why didn't he just cut it off rather than letting it dangle there so sloppily? Very unlike GM.

And to be even more nitpicky, I thought the braids were kind of tiny for a horse with such a thick neck, he's very attractive but I think a slightly longer braid might be more flattering to Independence.

[tidy rabbit]

I wonder how the horses like that saddle? Have they improved the tree and the fit and the panels?

[BAC]

I wonder how the horses like that saddle? Have they improved the tree and the fit and the panels?

The FB2 has been out for at least a couple of years now, it is supposed to be more open through the withers and spine, wider gullet, etc. A friend switched from her regular Butet (which no longer fit the horse and was bothering his back) to the new one with the FB2 tree, its a perfect fit and both horse and rider are much happier. It is supposed to be a big improvement over the original.

[Hunter Mom]

I thought this when I first saw the Beval ad-- but does the saddle (in some shots) look like it's not an 100% fit to George? Anyone else think it looks like his knee is over the flap in some shots (and only on the right side?!) Could be an optical illusion or just a trick of the photos, but if I was Beval and I was paying George the big bucks to be in an ad-- I would want the saddle to look 110% perfect-- even if I had to make a custom one JUST for the ad-- I would want it to look PERFECT.

Also at least one of the billet keepers is undone and flapping-- looks sloppy to me.
;)

I noticed the knee over hte saddle last night, too. I will have to go back and re-check the billet keepers.
Both of those issues aside, to ride like George... AHHHH

[vxf111]

In that same issue of PH is an article about jumping down into water cross country, featuring Boyd Martin. I don't know much about eventing, but from a hunter/jumper perspective I'd say that Devoucoux he's riding in is an even worse fit-- his knee is REALLY over the front of the saddle. Maybe that's intentional for eventing-- I don't know. But that issue of PH was the unofficial knee-over-the-flap issue or something!

[Pony+ an inch]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, GM did the photoshoot for the PH article IMMEDIATELY after doing the ad photo for Beval, so he may not have had all the time in world to fix the saddle exactly how he wanted it.

[BAC]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, GM did the photoshoot for the PH article IMMEDIATELY after doing the ad photo for Beval, so he may not have had all the time in world to fix the saddle exactly how he wanted it.

That may be true but I doubt he would ever accept that excuse from one of his students. I'm sure he would expect it is time well spent to be perfectly turned out. :yes:

As for Boyd Martin, its hard to tell how his saddle fits because he seems to be all over it. :D One photo has him almost sitting on the cantle. I'm not an expert on eventing but they seem to have a much greater variation on their position depending on what type of fence they are jumping.

And let's face it, Boyd Martin is not God, I mean George Morris, who we all consider to be the epitome of perfect turnout right? :winkgrin:

[mjrtango93]

In that same issue of PH is an article about jumping down into water cross country, featuring Boyd Martin. I don't know much about eventing, but from a hunter/jumper perspective I'd say that Devoucoux he's riding in is an even worse fit-- his knee is REALLY over the front of the saddle. Maybe that's intentional for eventing-- I don't know. But that issue of PH was the unofficial knee-over-the-flap issue or something!

No that is not how we fit event saddles. Being over the flap is incredibly uncomfortable and will rub your knees and legs when galloping like that. It appears that Boyd is in somebody else's saddle.

[vxf111]

double post, oops

[vxf111]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, GM did the photoshoot for the PH article IMMEDIATELY after doing the ad photo for Beval, so he may not have had all the time in world to fix the saddle exactly how he wanted it.


Playing Beval's Advocate here... I would want that saddle looking uber perfect, from uber angle, in EVERY WAY! The whole point of the shoot was to sell the saddle and I don't think for a moment that any small amount of time, money, and effort went into the ad compaign. I would not want a bad picture floating out there-- let alone 5-6 of them in Practical Horseman. The first thing I thought when I saw the photos was "why would GM allow less than ideal photos" but the second was "I guess Beval doesn't know/care much about fit of saddles if they can't even be bothered to get it right in the ad." The whole idea is to sell the product, it's got to be looking its absolute best.

I don't know much about eventing saddles or Boyd Martin-- and the article was about schooling a greenie with an emphasis on staying with the horse-- so maybe it was intentional-- but I agree he was all over the saddle and it didn't look like an ideal fit to me. Another saddle company that I guess doesn't care whether it fits?! Devoucoux sponsors Boyd Martin and he was wearing a LOUD Devoucoux jacket in at least part one of that article (can't remember if he was wearing it in part 2). I don't think that's an accident. If they sponsor him, they couldn't get him a decent fitting saddle to use in an article where he was hardcore pimping the brand by wearing their name spashed across his body?! Again, I don't know enough about eventing to say whether the fit was as bad as it looked-- but I wasn't left with a favorable impression seeing a sponsored rider in photos that made it look like the saddle was a poor fit.

From an advertising perspective, it just looks bad. That might be the ONE time I see/think about Devoucoux/Beval when I read PH. Why take any chance on it being a negative impression? If you're spending the money on adertising, bother to make the product look good?

[Seven-up]

I giggled when I saw he had dirt on the bottom of his boots. I can remember reading one of his critiques a long time ago where he said something to the effect of, "she should have had her groom brush off the bottoms of her boots as she was standing on the mounting block preparing to mount."

And of course I was highly amused to think of GM expecting everyone to have a groom to clean the soles of their boots before they got on. Then I started thinking that maybe it's easier for him to do that because he can probably levitate off the ground to clean his own boot soles. And then I started thinking that maybe dirt just doesn't stick to GM in the first place. And I guess I could make a joke about how he doesn't touch the ground when he walks and that's why his boots are clean...oh, boy...:lol:

[Go Fish]

And of course I was highly amused to think of GM expecting everyone to have a groom to clean the soles of their boots before they got on. Then I started thinking that maybe it's easier for him to do that because he can probably levitate off the ground to clean his own boot soles. And then I started thinking that maybe dirt just doesn't stick to GM in the first place. And I guess I could make a joke about how he doesn't touch the ground when he walks and that's why his boots are clean...oh, boy...:lol:

I think George Morris IS a god, but that was pretty funny! :lol:

From what I can tell, that saddle looks suspiciously like the Stuebben that my friend just bought...

[shawneeAcres]

Not commenting on saddle but the horse in my opinion is WAY WAY overweight! WHY do we feel our hroses have to be obese to look good?? No wonder so many horses are having leg and foot problems, I would never let one of mine get that fat! He is an adorable horse, but take about 100 pounds off him!

[snaffle635]

Playing Beval's Advocate here...


LOL! V - I just love you!

[Anyplace Farm]

Not commenting on saddle but the horse in my opinion is WAY WAY overweight! WHY do we feel our hroses have to be obese to look good?? No wonder so many horses are having leg and foot problems, I would never let one of mine get that fat! He is an adorable horse, but take about 100 pounds off him!

His crest (we call it a dolphin fin when we see it on ponies) did catch my eye but I know that it is in vogue for the hunters to be obese these days.

I do always wonder what it must be like for them effortwise when they are really fat and jumping. Aside from what it does to their joints, I just wonder how much of a struggle it is for them. You certainly don't see obese humans pushing themselves physically.

[Sebastian]

I giggled when I saw he had dirt on the bottom of his boots. I can remember reading one of his critiques a long time ago where he said something to the effect of, "she should have had her groom brush off the bottoms of her boots as she was standing on the mounting block preparing to mount."

And of course I was highly amused to think of GM expecting everyone to have a groom to clean the soles of their boots before they got on. Then I started thinking that maybe it's easier for him to do that because he can probably levitate off the ground to clean his own boot soles. And then I started thinking that maybe dirt just doesn't stick to GM in the first place. And I guess I could make a joke about how he doesn't touch the ground when he walks and that's why his boots are clean...oh, boy...:lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol:
That is truly hilarious.

And, if that horse is by Carolus I (who I love), compared to Daddy -- his crest is tiny. :winkgrin:

Seb :)

[Sing Mia Song]

See, I looked at the cover of the magazine and had three thoughts (not necessarily in this order):

1. I can't believe he didn't hook the saddle pad keeper to the billets, or at least tuck it up underneat the saddle.

2. Where are the gloves?

3. Holy Jesus, George is in a GPA! :eek:

[Go Fish]

See, I looked at the cover of the magazine and had three thoughts (not necessarily in this order):

1. I can't believe he didn't hook the saddle pad keeper to the billets, or at least tuck it up underneat the saddle.

I cut those damn things off every pad I own.

[snaffle635]

My initial thought upon seeing the cover was

'Damn, he looks good! How old is he? Pretty old! I should have such a gorgeous leg position!'

[Pirateer]

3. Holy Jesus, George is in a GPA! :eek:

Didn't Anne K or someone give the GPA to GM?

[billiebob]

My mom asked who the "old guy" was on the cover of my PH this month. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I had to explain why I was so impressed by him. Great article BTW (besides the billet keeper)!

[Sandy M]

So funny because I thought the same thing about the horse. He is adorable and does look like a big pony. He's adorable.

And like you, I also saw that billet keeper flapping. I had to look away, though -- for George's sake. ;)


I hope this isn't heretical, and I thought it was a fine article with useful information and a very attractive "pony like" horse, BUT.... I sorta giggled at - I think it's the first photo? - where the text says something about not getting/forcing the horse behind the vertical, etc., etc., and my immediate thought was - that particular horse couldn't go behind the vertical if he WANTED to, short of someone cranking him (very uncomfortably) there with sidereins or the like!

[Seven-up]

And, if that horse is by Carolus I (who I love), compared to Daddy -- his crest is tiny. :winkgrin:

Seb :)


No kidding. I googled. Holy neck fat, Batman!:eek: http://www.synergysporthorses.net/carolus_h.jpg
I have to wonder if it wobbled when he trotted. :winkgrin: I knew a horse whose crest was so fat it flopped over to one side. They had to lift it up to brush under it.

Looks like Independence comes from pretty chunky stock. Don't know what mom looks like, but I bet she's got some junk in the trunk, too. I'll keep it polite since the owner has no idea we're discussing her horse's juicy booty. He'd be gorgeous no matter what.

[CraziiPonii]

My initial thought of the cover-
"He's not wearing rust breeches!!"

[horselesswonder]

Please. Carolus has nothing on Landgraf I: http://www.hopefulfarm.com/Landgraf.html. The video includes a lot of up-close footage of that big ol neck.

[Seven-up]

Please. Carolus has nothing on Landgraf I: http://www.hopefulfarm.com/Landgraf.html. The video includes a lot of up-close footage of that big ol neck.

:eek::eek::eek: He looks like a freaking dinosaur! That's just...wow. :eek:

[2boys]

I am in LOVE with that horse. Interestingly, my non-horsey husband said, "Ooh, that is a weird-looking horse!" I think he is gorgeous.. The article was excellent also. It amazes me how many people are comfortable with having their horses travel behind the bit, so I think the article was very timely.

[JLC7898]

Did it bother anyone else that his chin strap is dangling and the swagger tabs on his boots are curled upwards? Eek

[Renn/aissance]

Did it bother anyone else that his chin strap is dangling and the swagger tabs on his boots are curled upwards? Eek

The chin strap did bother me because it is unsafe. The swagger tabs, not so much; every pair of boots I own that have swagger tabs end up with the tabs curled up after awhile. It just happens.

The saddle pad strap didn't bother me either, because he may not have had a choice as to what to do with it. It looks fairly short and actually may not have fit over the knee block; I know that my Butet was not compatible with most of those darn straps. It looks like it was neatly tucked down in the first few pictures and slipped out.

As for the saddle fit to rider, while I noticed that the saddle does not fit GM (because I have spent nine months obsessing about fit to my horse and his rider) it did not bother me. I figured, "He's in a demo." It's not the first time I've seen a rider's knee push the front of the flap. The saddle fits him well enough on the left side (i.e. not inhibiting what he's doing) that, if I were Beval, I would use pictures from the left side (which is also braided up) and ignore whatever's going on on the right side, which could be rider conformation. ;)

Didn't Anne K or someone give the GPA to GM?

That's the story I heard too--"If I have to wear an approved, so do you." It is better suited to his head than the CO Showjumper he was wearing before. ;)

[katie16]

I just finished reading all the previous posts. As often happens, I see that the thread has somewhat digressed from the original topic of the horse to picking apart GM and his turnout and fit of things . . .

I have not read the article or seen the photos yet (my PH has not arrived!), but I am somewhat sad to read all the negative comments many have posted. I do realize that some of the picky comments seem to come from people feeling that GM himself would have made those comments to others and should have "policed" himself better. I am disappointed that so much of the comments focus on his straps (etc.) and not on his riding or the information he is trying to provide. I think that it would be hard to argue that he has been, and still is, a fantastic rider. Additionally, he has been a fantastic teacher to much of the industry's top riders and trainers of today. And, he still wants and trys to promote the sport to the next generation. That attention to detail (or pickyness to some) is what got him all that he has accomplished and created. Whether I like his ego or not, I belive he has earned the right to be on that high horse if he wants to be.

[Anyplace Farm]

Call me crazy, but could his stirrups come up a hole? I can't remember what they looked like inside the issue but they seemed a hole long on the cover. Of course, he had excellent depth of heel but just looked a hole long.

I'm still a worshipper (takes another sip of the Kool-Aid) and I feel a strong desire to pat the pony firmly on his dolphin fin just to watch it jiggle. PACK! PACK! PACK! (that's the sound...) So kyoot! He almost looks like he's smiling in the pics. I love his adorable eye.

[spurgirl]

Were the first things that I saw when I got my PH...I then realized that it was none other than the great GM on the cover! I then went into full critique mode;). The helmet is not properly adjusted, and is downright dangerous, his billet strap is hanging untidily, his foot is uneven in the stirrup, and oh my gosh-his boots have not been wiped:eek: Also, I have read the "Jumping Clinic" for decades-does he not also frown heavily upon wearing sunglasses when riding as well? I DO realize this is a schooling session, but for the cover of a magazine, if I was GM I'd make darn sure I looked near-perfect, since he is "the king of proper turn-out"...:)


The horse is adorable, but looks like a founder waiting to happen. I agree with a previous poster, he looks like he could lose 100 lbs., easily.

[KaterasEqGirl]

While my eye was not drawn to GM right away I did notice the fact that the horse he is riding is HUGE. My god with a neck like that? Yikes, I love a round horse as much as the next person but that just does not look nice.

[BAC]

How about we submit this thread to GM's monthly column in PH and see how he defends our criticisms? I am an admirer of GM but he certainly is not practicing what he preaches in these photos.

One thing I LOVE about the article though is that he stresses the horses nose should be in front of the vertical, almost no one seems to know that anymore and its a pet peeve of mine.

[mcm7780]

The first thing I noticed was how badly the saddle fit his leg. It may be a demo, but I would have thought that GM and Beval would want to advertise a saddle that actually fits the rider, especially since that is something GM is big on when critiquing riders. It seems to me that one would want to endorse a product that works well for them; an ill-fitting saddle may not be deadly but it wouldn't work as well as one that does fit them. If it was just a saddle and not one he's endorsing (let's be serious, the article was an advertisement in conjunction to being an educational piece), the poor fit wouldn't be such an issue.

[europa]

Not to mention his chinstrap might as well be a jockstrap it is hanging sooo low! HA HA That is not good considering all the focus on safety these days. And I sure hope GM is ready for all the DQs turning over in their graves on the flying change coming from the leg and spur and not the seat! HA HA

[lalahartma1]

I saw that cover and though: whoa, what a fattie!

[LetsChat]

Call me crazy, but could his stirrups come up a hole? I can't remember what they looked like inside the issue but they seemed a hole long on the cover. Of course, he had excellent depth of heel but just looked a hole long.

I'm still a worshipper (takes another sip of the Kool-Aid) and I feel a strong desire to pat the pony firmly on his dolphin fin just to watch it jiggle. PACK! PACK! PACK! (that's the sound...) So kyoot! He almost looks like he's smiling in the pics. I love his adorable eye.

I thought the same exact thing. His heel is down but the stirrup looks long. However, reading through all these posts, maybe he is riding in a demo and his knee would come further over the knee roll if the stirrup was shorter. Still, I do think all this talk is funny. I guess the way I feel, in any way in life IS if you tend to be hyper critical of others they will and DO take any opportunity to turn it on you. As it should be, he is one to be rude and demeaning to people when in all honesty, he isn't a GOD... Sorry, I don't buy it, never have, never will. Yes I am sure he is a good rider but he always seemed a bit too militant for my taste.

[LetsChat]

The first thing I noticed was how badly the saddle fit his leg. It may be a demo, but I would have thought that GM and Beval would want to advertise a saddle that actually fits the rider, especially since that is something GM is big on when critiquing riders. It seems to me that one would want to endorse a product that works well for them; an ill-fitting saddle may not be deadly but it wouldn't work as well as one that does fit them. If it was just a saddle and not one he's endorsing (let's be serious, the article was an advertisement in conjunction to being an educational piece), the poor fit wouldn't be such an issue.

And it costs over $4000.....

[Sandy M]

How about we submit this thread to GM's monthly column in PH and see how he defends our criticisms? I am an admirer of GM but he certainly is not practicing what he preaches in these photos.

One thing I LOVE about the article though is that he stresses the horses nose should be in front of the vertical, almost no one seems to know that anymore and its a pet peeve of mine.


Agreed, but as I said above, I think THAT PARTICULAR HORSE couldn't go behind the vertical if it tried! A better example might have been of a horse with a longer, thinner neck going correctly (and perhaps contrasting pic of an incorrect "behind the vertical" frame). Still, good information in the article, despite our nit-picking. I would think GM would probably be amused.

I have a picture of myself from some year back with very nice form over a fence (patting self on back in great surprise), but I quail at sending it in to PH for GM's comment because my horse's hooves are "dirty" (Hey, the warmup was watered down clay base - it stuck to everything) and the feet of my boots are dusty (We walked the course, I just had time to get back to do a couple of warmup jumps, then had to go in and ride the course and horror! I forgot to have "my groom" - that is, ME - dust them off). I just KNOW GM would nail me on that (LOL, including dirty SOLES on my boots).........

[MHW]

Mark Walter
Beval Saddlery

A few comments about the posts in regard to this article. First I wanted to thank the nice person for mentioning the FB2 tree. Thought it might be helpful to add to that they also are available in many different panel styles as well different widths for both the original and the FB2 tree.

In regard to the ads themselves the shot that we used in the majority of our ads was George standing next to the horse with his hand on the flap not any of the photos used for this article. The standing shot was the original general concept for the ad. In addition the saddle he is actually riding in is a 17” 2 flat FB 2 extra wide tree we also sent a 17 2 ¼ flap which was not used because it was a bit more broken in and did not look as good on the horse . The people we had at the shoot decided to use the 17 2 flap saddle as it was brand new and pre conditioned just as we send them out when they are ready for use. Although in many of the shots including the cover the leg positition looks good and his knee is not over the flap in some the knee is over the flap. One of the reasons for us not using the riding shots in our ads was as mentioned this was not the concept we had for the ad. The other is obviously for an ad we would want the picture to be as perfect as we could get especially with George in the saddle. The 17 2 ¼ flap saddle which we sent down and did not use would actually be a better fit for Mr. Morris.

George had asked me and the photographer if he could use some of the photos for this article and I was very thankful to him and Practical horsemen for printing them. So I can understand some of the criticism just wanted to be clear that these were not the shots we used in our ads and again am still thankful we got the added bonus of having them printed in such a fine publication.


As for the billet attachment strap hanging out on some of the photos, I am certain that if George had noticed this he would not have used that photo or had it corrected.

Thank you, Mark Walter

[IrishWillow]

I thought this when I first saw the Beval ad-- but does the saddle (in some shots) look like it's not an 100% fit to George? Anyone else think it looks like his knee is over the flap in some shots (and only on the right side?!) Could be an optical illusion or just a trick of the photos, but if I was Beval and I was paying George the big bucks to be in an ad-- I would want the saddle to look 110% perfect-- even if I had to make a custom one JUST for the ad-- I would want it to look PERFECT.

Also at least one of the billet keepers is undone and flapping-- looks sloppy to me.

This is nitpicky stuff and I would never comment about a person posting a general riding picture-- but this is GEORGE MORRIS and a set of adertising photos. If there's one time when everything should be perfect-- I would think this would be it!

I would have also style George in the rust breeches, but that's just me ;)


Agreed! I didnt think it looked like the saddle fit him at ALL! :eek:

[vxf111]

Lesson learned, I guess. Don't sent ANYTHING for use in an ad shoot that you wouldn't want used. That means no saddles that don't fit-- and don't send the one that DOES fit looking scuffed/worn/a bit more broken in enough that the photographer decides not to use it day-of. And before you start shooting, get someone who KNOWS what to look for to check over everything and make sure every detail is in place (i.e., a set supervisor).

Lesson learned, people DO notice details in photos (my favorite is the Markel one with Perfectionist where he's wearing a mysterious, gravity defying, illogical, impossible bridle due to some photoshopping by a person who CLEARLY isn't a horse person). My overall impression of the new Beval saddle, having seen those photos, was not favorable. You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Get the photos as *right* as possible before they go out the door!

[Renn/aissance]

I buy a saddle based on how it fits my horse, not who's endorsing it, so it doesn't matter to me whether that's George Morris sitting in the thing or Susie from down the road who wears a pink Troxel with rhinestones on the side. It sounds as though Beval's ad concept worked well when translated to photography and that they got what they wanted out of the shoot.

[ponymom64]

Very nice of Mark to come on the board and answer the questions posed by the photos.

[Dirty Little Secret]

MHW- certainly with all of the criticism from this board you will want to immediately dispose of all 17" medium tree saddles (standard foward flap) and I know just the place... my tack room! Please send them at once to rid yourself of any embarrassment!

[Sandy M]

How tall is GM? (I realize hip to knee length doesn't necessarily correlate w/height) but I'm a fraction over 5'7" and I wouldn't fit a 17" saddle. All of mine have been 17.5", flat/x-c/or dressage. The statements of what saddles were used = I was a little confused between size and model - but the gentleman from Beval seemed to be saying they were both 17" seats??

[vxf111]

I agree that it was nice of Mike to come on the board. I hope he'll take the criticism as constructive/how to do better/what people see in ads. That's how I intended it. Advertising is a tough business, people NOTICE everything. It's a very detail-oriented business to be in!

I wouldn't buy a saddle based on endorsements, but I *would* buy one based in part upon it being somewhat customizable and having a lot of different flap options. When I see something in an ad (and the article made a point of saying the photos were from an ad and mentioning Beval by name) and it looks like it doesn't fit-- it makes me think "well, that doesn't come with sufficient options and/or the manufacturer doesn't know/care whether it fits the consumer."

I assume that something used in a promotional photo is the BEST fit the company can give. The absolute best the product will fit/look. If they couldn't bother to get a brandy new one that fit for the photo shoot-- what will happen if/when I walk into the store and want one? Will they give me any old thing off the shelf because they don't care? Or maybe does it not COME in lots of good options, so I shouldn't even bother looking? I dunno... but I (and other people) noticed immediately that the saddle looked like the flap didn't fit GM's leg. That's not the first impression you want. You want the first impression to be "dang, he looks GOOD in that saddle... that saddle looks GOOD... I want to try it!" My first impression was-- "GM's not much taller than me. If Beval couldn't get the flap to fit him for the ad, it sure as heck won't fit me... and, does Beval not KNOW what a proper fit looks like? If not, I wouldn't trust them to buy from them." Not saying ANY of these impressions are TRUE-- but that's the first impression I got from the photos.

Sandy M, I think what Mark was saying is that they sent two size 17 seat saddles-- but the saddles had different flap configurations. One might have fit GM better than the other. I assume this saddle can be ordered in different flap configurations with the same seat.

[Anyplace Farm]

he isn't a GOD... Sorry, I don't buy it, never have, never will. Yes I am sure he is a good rider but he always seemed a bit too militant for my taste.

Let's Chat - you sit tight... I'm mixing up a new batch of Kool-Aid. You must be parched. :D

[Lucassb]

I agree that it was nice of Mike to come on the board. I hope he'll take the criticism as constructive/how to do better/what people see in ads. That's how I intended it. Advertising is a tough business, people NOTICE everything. It's a very detail-oriented business to be in!

I wouldn't buy a saddle based on endorsements, but I *would* buy one based in part upon it being somewhat customizable and having a lot of different flap options. When I see something in an ad (and the article made a point of saying the photos were from an ad and mentioning Beval by name) and it looks like it doesn't fit-- it makes me think "well, that doesn't come with sufficient options and/or the manufacturer doesn't know/care whether it fits the consumer."

I assume that something used in a promotional photo is the BEST fit the company can give. The absolute best the product will fit/look. If they couldn't bother to get a brandy new one that fit for the photo shoot-- what will happen if/when I walk into the store and want one? Will they give me any old thing off the shelf because they don't care? Or maybe does it not COME in lots of good options, so I shouldn't even bother looking? I dunno... but I (and other people) noticed immediately that the saddle looked like the flap didn't fit GM's leg. That's not the first impression you want. You want the first impression to be "dang, he looks GOOD in that saddle... that saddle looks GOOD... I want to try it!" My first impression was-- "GM's not much taller than me. If Beval couldn't get the flap to fit him for the ad, it sure as heck won't fit me... and, does Beval not KNOW what a proper fit looks like? If not, I wouldn't trust them to buy from them." Not saying ANY of these impressions are TRUE-- but that's the first impression I got from the photos.

Sandy M, I think what Mark was saying is that they sent two size 17 seat saddles-- but the saddles had different flap configurations. One might have fit GM better than the other. I assume this saddle can be ordered in different flap configurations with the same seat.


Actually when you are shooting photos for advertising, it is not uncommon for 90% of them to be thrown away - you can shoot for hours seeking that perfect photo. The concept for the ad was for GM to stand posed NEXT to the horse, not in the tack, so that was "the money shot," and anything else would have been provided as backup or possibly for use in future layouts. The photos you all are criticizing, however legitimately, would never see the light of day from an advertising standpoint, because the art director would presumably cull them for all the reasons you've stated.

HOWEVER, as the Beval rep has pointed out, GM asked for permission to use the shots to illustrate an article in another publication.

At that point, Beval's art director has no control over which shots are used, and has to suffer the choices made by someone who is focused on illustrating a how-to article (not promoting a product.)

From a marketing standpoint I think the Beval team must be disappointed that those particular shots were selected because it does not show the product in the most desirable light, but that is certainly not their fault. I very much doubt they got to review the article prior to publication. Any marketing pro would understand that this is a danger of allowing your photos to be used in a way you cannot direct, but frequently the benefit that might be conveyed by the additional exposure trumps the concern that the photos may end up being less than flattering.

[Come Shine]

So - let me get this straight. The product *endorsement* was for a saddle that neither George Morris nor the horse actually use. All righty then. :lol:

[BAC]

So - let me get this straight. The product *endorsement* was for a saddle that neither George Morris nor the horse actually use. All righty then. :lol:

That's not necessarily true. Beval wanted to use a brand new saddle in their ad, so we don't really know whether or not GM or Independence's rider use Butet saddles or not. I don't think Frank Madden rides in a Bates, or Geoff Teall rides in a Dover Circuit either, despite the fact that they endorse those particular saddles. I don't buy my saddle based upon who endorses it anyway.

[Paragon]

MHW- certainly with all of the criticism from this board you will want to immediately dispose of all 17" medium tree saddles (standard foward flap) and I know just the place... my tack room! Please send them at once to rid yourself of any embarrassment!

Any 17.5's laying around? Good. I have room. :lol:

[MHW]

Thank You Lucussb

How correct you are it is very difficult to get the proper shot and especially with George flying all over the place and me not being able to fly down there at the time. I tried to make sure we sent a good represntation of saddles that would fit that horse and we could use for the standing shot which came out very nice. I did not realize at the time they were going to be used in the artiacle nor did I have any ability to choose what they used. We did howver get a great shot for the actual ad.

As far as George riding in a the saddle a little clarification he had been riding in Chris Kaplers saddles when in florida and also had ridden in one that was at BZ's barn at the time and simply told me how much he loved the saddle which is why I asked him to endorse it.

The Horse owner Kimberly Dunn and trainer Sandy Ferrell very graciously let me use the horse for the shoot so I am not certain what type of saddle Kimberly rides in.

Another clarification the other saddle that I sent down was what is called a 17 " 2 1/4 flap which is slightly more forward where his knee passes over the flap this is the size he would be best in not the 17 2 that was in the article.

[Pirateer]

especially with George flying all over the place

This can totally go in the quote library with "George Morris Psycho?"

bwahahahahahahahaa:D

[Sebastian]

No kidding. I googled. Holy neck fat, Batman!:eek: http://www.synergysporthorses.net/carolus_h.jpg
I have to wonder if it wobbled when he trotted. :winkgrin: I knew a horse whose crest was so fat it flopped over to one side. They had to lift it up to brush under it.

Looks like Independence comes from pretty chunky stock. Don't know what mom looks like, but I bet she's got some junk in the trunk, too. I'll keep it polite since the owner has no idea we're discussing her horse's juicy booty. He'd be gorgeous no matter what.

:lol: That IS actually where the term "crest fallen" comes from... :yes:

I've seen video of Carolus I, and he was REALLY lovely, and yes, VERY big. Just loped around the 4ft course happily like it was nothing...

I'd take that juicy grey, Independence -- big booty and ALL -- in a HEARTBEAT!!!! :winkgrin:

Seb :)

[Seven-up]

So - let me get this straight. The product *endorsement* was for a saddle that neither George Morris nor the horse actually use. All righty then. :lol:

Do you believe that Eva Longoria really dyes her hair at home with Preference haircolor and Beyonce' really buys her Revlon makeup at the supermarket?:winkgrin:

GM riding in a Butet is much more believeable than seeing a commercial with, oh, say Angelina Jolie pitching Hungry Man tv dinners. I would scratch my head over an ad with GM and a Wintec. Seeing Sir George in a Butet, yeah, that sounds about right.



---------------------------------------------------------------

I for one thought the saddle looked like it was comfortable (so much so that I wanted to start a thread just to ask what kind it was) and it reminded me of the flatter saddles that I'm fond of. If I had 5 large to drop on a saddle, I'd probably try one out.

I can easily see how a photo shoot started as "Stand next to the horse, put your hand on the saddle and smile like you're petting a pile of fluffy kittens" and progressed into, "Hey, since you're here, why don't you hop on and do some stuff" which progressed even further into, "You know, we really ought to do an article with a guy like this doing stuff like that."

So the saddle didn't look like it was an extension of GM's glorious butt. So what? A saddle that fits like a glove and is wonderfully broken in isn't going to look as fresh as a daisy. I can deal with it. I admire Mark for coming on here and patiently trying to respond to all of these nitpicky comments with a lot of diplomacy.


Do y'all rip Dover a new one every time you see a pair of uncrinkled at the ankle field boots on a model who looks terrified of the horse she's standing next to, or when you see the child model is wearing jods that don't have dirt on the knees and dried chocolate ice cream splattered all down the front of her Grand Prix coat?

It's just an ad.

[Come Shine]

It's kind of neat, really, because it is a beautiful horse with an amazing rider and a high end saddle. However, when the saddle doesn't fit quite 'right', it just looks a bit off, not what you expect to see. It would be interesting to see another article showing the different effect of various seat sizes and flaps.

[LetsChat]

Lesson learned, I guess. Don't sent ANYTHING for use in an ad shoot that you wouldn't want used. That means no saddles that don't fit-- and don't send the one that DOES fit looking scuffed/worn/a bit more broken in enough that the photographer decides not to use it day-of. And before you start shooting, get someone who KNOWS what to look for to check over everything and make sure every detail is in place (i.e., a set supervisor).

Lesson learned, people DO notice details in photos (my favorite is the Markel one with Perfectionist where he's wearing a mysterious, gravity defying, illogical, impossible bridle due to some photoshopping by a person who CLEARLY isn't a horse person). My overall impression of the new Beval saddle, having seen those photos, was not favorable. You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Get the photos as *right* as possible before they go out the door!

Don't know for sure but I have looked closely at the Perfectionist pic and I think the reins are in the throatlatch. I always assumed so the horse wouldn't chew them during the jog. Not 100% sure though.

[crazyhorses]

I'm in LOVE with that horse. I'm glad I wasn't the only one wondering his breeding haha

[BearWithMe]

My mom asked who the "old guy" was on the cover of my PH this month. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I had to explain why I was so impressed by him. Great article BTW (besides the billet keeper)!

hahahah! my mother said the exact same thing!!!
i told her he was god, and not to question it haha

the horse is fattt! the crestyness (made up a word) def gives the impression of a huge pony.
I also noticed the saddle fit right away and was a little confused.
he looks great regardless and the article was so informative.

[JenEM]

I can easily see how a photo shoot started as "Stand next to the horse, put your hand on the saddle and smile like you're petting a pile of fluffy kittens" and progressed into, "Hey, since you're here, why don't you hop on and do some stuff" which progressed even further into, "You know, we really ought to do an article with a guy like this doing stuff like that."


From reading the PH article, GM made it sound as if he figured while he was there with the cooperative horse and the pro photog, he might as well get an article out of it. It didn't seem as if his intention was really to have the article relate to the saddle, beyond the initial mention that the photoshoot was the jumping off point for it. I wouldn't judge the saddle based on photos in the article, which were not taken to emphasize the saddle.

As to the seat size, I'm 5'10", know I'm taller than GM from standing next to him, and ride in a 17" Beval (though it's one of theirs, not a Butet). If the sizing is the same between the Bevals and the Butets regarding seats, they tend to be generous full sizes, without half sizes between. When I was trying out saddles, I was really shocked that a 17" fit me when I sat in it. I wouldn't be at all surprised that one would fit GM.

[vxf111]

LetsChat-- I thought that too but when I looked closer-- it didn't seem like it. I think the reins WERE through the throatlatch but then someone tried (unsucessfully) to photoshop them back to normal and ended up making it look weird. I wish I had the ad scanned so I could blow it up and look more closely... it bugs me!

[vxf111]

And let's be real... that Practical Horseman article was an ad and an article. It's not as though GM failed to say anything about the Butet in the article and one of us just happened to hold up the Beval ad and the photos from the article and say "golly gee, looks like the same saddle!" GM led off the article by thanking Beval for letting him use the new saddle and photos from the shoot. He did ask Beval's permission and inform them first.

If I was Beval I'd think "awesome, free adevertising" and I'd want some control over the photos to make sure they were flattering to the saddle. I was Beval, knowing GM was going to mention the saddle in an ad with pictures-- I would have tried my darndest to make sure the photos were "keepers" and not culls. The billet keeper being loose?! Just plain sloppy! Not having sufficient choices in size/flap available to make sure once he got on it fit-- also a mistake.

The original concept was for GM to stand next to the saddle but there must have been SOME idea that he might get up-- because Mike's admitted that Beval went to some effort to get the correct size-- it's just that the one sent in GM's size was a little more worn looking than they liked. Mistake. Lesson learned!

I am critical of other sloppy photos used in advertising-- they really do make the product look bad. I think Dover usually has exceptionally nice photos. Whatever girl is the "leg" for their boots-- she must be a toothpick. :) No accident, the boots look fantastic on her. Horse modeling bridles are always turned out to the highest degree, absolutely gorgeous braid etc. Beval was trying to do the same thing here-- some details got missed.

I also think, at the very least, GM could have acknowledged the saddle fit issue in the article?! I mean, he did talk about stirrup length and position in the saddle. He could have said "you'll notice in some photos that my right knee is over the flap of the saddle. While not ideal, my lower leg remains secure because of the weight down my leg and into my heel... blah blah blah... Beval was kind enough to send a demo saddle for this photo shoot and ideally would have sent a slightly more forward flap. At home, I ride in a Butet with a blah blah blah flap." Something like that?!

[Equinoxfox]

Now you guys are killing me here. I thought the post was about the Horse and some how it is now all about GM.
We all know he is great. ( Point well known) . We all know his is endorsed and given many extra things to promote. This is just another ploy to get people to go and buy the damn thing . Come on let's get back to the horse here and stay on point .:lol:

Anyplace... You kill me . I did not think you liked Kool Aid and from being with you . I know cocktails are your beverage of choice..;)

[RW06]

And let's be real... that Practical Horseman article was an ad and an article. It's not as though GM failed to say anything about the Butet in the article and one of us just happened to hold up the Beval ad and the photos from the article and say "golly gee, looks like the same saddle!" GM led off the article by thanking Beval for letting him use the new saddle and photos from the shoot. He did ask Beval's permission and inform them first.

If I was Beval I'd think "awesome, free adevertising" and I'd want some control over the photos to make sure they were flattering to the saddle. I was Beval, knowing GM was going to mention the saddle in an ad with pictures-- I would have tried my darndest to make sure the photos were "keepers" and not culls. The billet keeper being loose?! Just plain sloppy! Not having sufficient choices in size/flap available to make sure once he got on it fit-- also a mistake.

The original concept was for GM to stand next to the saddle but there must have been SOME idea that he might get up-- because Mike's admitted that Beval went to some effort to get the correct size-- it's just that the one sent in GM's size was a little more worn looking than they liked. Mistake. Lesson learned!

I am critical of other sloppy photos used in advertising-- they really do make the product look bad. I think Dover usually has exceptionally nice photos. Whatever girl is the "leg" for their boots-- she must be a toothpick. :) No accident, the boots look fantastic on her. Horse modeling bridles are always turned out to the highest degree, absolutely gorgeous braid etc. Beval was trying to do the same thing here-- some details got missed.

I also think, at the very least, GM could have acknowledged the saddle fit issue in the article?! I mean, he did talk about stirrup length and position in the saddle. He could have said "you'll notice in some photos that my right knee is over the flap of the saddle. While not ideal, my lower leg remains secure because of the weight down my leg and into my heel... blah blah blah... Beval was kind enough to send a demo saddle for this photo shoot and ideally would have sent a slightly more forward flap. At home, I ride in a Butet with a blah blah blah flap." Something like that?!

I think you're missing a few things here, vxf. Once George asked Mark and Randi, the photographer, if he could use some shots for the PH article, the issue ceased to be in their hands. It was a great opportunity for Beval to have George ASK to use their saddle for an article- ostensibly, he liked it very much. To me, this also indicates that he was happy enough with the turnout of the horse, saddle fit, saddle turnout, etc. that he thought it would make a wonderful, attractive, and most importantly, informative article in PH.

If you are so bothered by the billet strap, why not place the blame on some of the editors in PH? After all, it is their job to make sure everything is perfect and up to par before publication. You can't expect Mark, Randi, and George to act as editors for a publication that is ENTIRELY out of their hands. Mark allowed George to use the pictures because Practical Horseman is a high-end, well-respected magazine. He thought (correctly, may I add) that such a polished publication would only use the highest quality shots that demonstrated the pinnacle of horsemanship and turnout. Apparently to them, a loose billet strap does not indicate poor horsemanship or shoddy turnout. Look at the horse- he is shiny, beautifully braided, clean, and his hooves are polished. The saddle pad is sparkling white. The horse is alert and looking through the bridle in all the shots. Maybe the strap slipped out while riding. Maybe it created unnecessary bulk under the saddle. Maybe there were no scissors with which to cut it off... the possibilities are endless. And yes, maybe they just didn't notice it hanging out. It happens.

Horse people are real people, and that's the beauty of it. Unlike advertising that we see on TV or in other magazines, equestrian advertising is accessible and relatable. When I see Beyoncé or Marcia Cross advertising affordable cosmetics and apple juice, I don't identify with them at all. I don't think Beyoncé uses Cover Girl. Think about how many times your turnout, your barnmate's turnout, or your trainer's turnout has looked wonderful and sharp. Odds are, there was a little something awry, maybe a hair sticking out of your helmet or one polo wrap an smidge higher than the other. It's what makes us horse people and not machines.

[vxf111]

I think you're missing a few things here, vxf. Once George asked Mark and Randi, the photographer, if he could use some shots for the PH article, the issue ceased to be in their hands.

It didn't have to be. They could have asked for approval/review of the photos. And Beval was presumably there when the photos were taken, they could have stepped in and fixed things if they saw them. Do you think a company like Diet Coke or GAP would say "oh, you want to drop our name and use some images in Time Magazine? Go ahead, do what you like, we don't need to see the photos." Probably not. The article was advertising, even if not the type originally intended by Beval when they set up the photo shoot.

If you are so bothered by the billet strap, why not place the blame on some of the editors in PH? After all, it is their job to make sure everything is perfect and up to par before publication.

They probably should have caught it too, you're right. It's not the first time their editing has been sloppy.

He thought (correctly, may I add) that such a polished publication would only use the highest quality shots that demonstrated the pinnacle of horsemanship and turnout. Apparently to them, a loose billet strap does not indicate poor horsemanship or shoddy turnout. Look at the horse- he is shiny, beautifully braided, clean, and his hooves are polished. The saddle pad is sparkling white. The horse is alert and looking through the bridle in all the shots. Maybe the strap slipped out while riding. Maybe it created unnecessary bulk under the saddle. Maybe there were no scissors with which to cut it off... the possibilities are endless. And yes, maybe they just didn't notice it hanging out. It happens.


The billet kepper is sloppy, no two ways around it! And an ill fitting saddle is hardly the best way to demonstrate equitation. Remember, this is GM who will rip apart an eventing rider in a photo for having colorful clothing or a slightly too-large fitted pad. Yet he allowed photos to be published of him riding with a loose flapping billet cover, dirt on his boots (he rails on people for that!), a too loose chinstrap, and a saddle that just plain doesn't fit. This is the guy whose job at PH is to critique photos of other people based on their riding and turnout. You'd think, if there was anyone who would want to make sure photos of him were perfect-- it'd be that guy!

Agreed that the horse's turnout is gorgeous, props to whoever groomed him and got him ready for the shoot-- he looked fabulous. Lovely horse and looks great in every photo. Can't take a bad photo of him :)

Horse people are real people, and that's the beauty of it. Unlike advertising that we see on TV or in other magazines, equestrian advertising is accessible and relatable. When I see Beyoncé or Marcia Cross advertising affordable cosmetics and apple juice, I don't identify with them at all. I don't think Beyoncé uses Cover Girl. Think about how many times your turnout, your barnmate's turnout, or your trainer's turnout has looked wonderful and sharp. Odds are, there was a little something awry, maybe a hair sticking out of your helmet or one polo wrap an smidge higher than the other. It's what makes us horse people and not machines.

But that's why I'm not George Morris :) (among a plethora of other reasons)

[Summit Springs Farm]

The first thing I noticed was the saddle pad strap hanging down and GM's helmet strap handing loosely.

BUT I thought the flying change description with the pictures was the best I've ever seen or read. Great job PH and GM.

As for the bevel saddle, I didn't even think about it, sorry Mark.

Oh and the horse too me is not fat, he looks to be built chunky.

Also I noticed that GM's stirrups looked long to me.

[RW06]

But that's why I'm not George Morris :) (among a plethora of other reasons)

Haha, me neither!!! :lol:

[Seven-up]

I think a lot of people on this thread need to kick back and have a really stiff drink (or 3) this weekend. I know I need a few.:winkgrin:

[MHM]

I think a lot of people on this thread need to kick back and have a really stiff drink (or 3) this weekend. I know I need a few.:winkgrin:

I think a lot of people on this thread seem to have a lot of free time to mix up those drinks. ;)

FWIW, when I first read the article, I didn't notice the fit of the saddle. I was reading GM's remarks and looking at the pictures in that context. Silly me.

I did notice the horse's beautiful braid job and turn-out. I will say I also thought GM could have tightened his chinstrap, to both be safe and set a good example.

[RRJ]

And to be even more nitpicky, I thought the braids were kind of tiny for a horse with such a thick neck, he's very attractive but I think a slightly longer braid might be more flattering to Independence.

Bigger braids would make his neck look thicker. That braid job is A++ in my opinion :)

[meupatdoes]

http://www.beval.com/content/GeorgeMorrisPR.html

Looking at this picture, the saddle appears, to me at least, to be notably too small for the horse.

Unless I am missing something about the pommel design, and admittedly it is a slightly odd angle, I do not consider a saddle to be flat and level when the pommel is as high or higher than the cantle.

A saddle that is tilted up in front, especially to such an extent (!), is with few exceptions a sign of a tree that is too narrow.

Other posters have noted nit picky aesthetic issues with the photos; to me the lack of concern for the horse's comfort and the failure to address an obvious (and pretty basic) saddle fit issue is the bigger problem.

[vxf111]

I hadn't actually seen any photos of the saddle NOT with GM in it (I don't think that photo was in the PH spread, if it was I missed it) I also thought that the saddle looks a bit tipped back.... but I also think the horse is standing on a not insignificant slope.

Is *that* the "official" Beval advertising photo? I am underwhelmed. It's busier and less focused on the saddle itself than I would have guessed. Also, what's with positioning the horse on the hill? Did GM feel like he didn't look tall enough?! LOL. Teasing...

I think actually some of the riding shots (with the nit pickies photoshopped out and from the left side where the saddle flap looks better) are a lot more impressive.

[Renn/aissance]

http://www.beval.com/content/GeorgeMorrisPR.html

Looking at this picture, the saddle appears, to me at least, to be notably too small for the horse.

Unless I am missing something about the pommel design, and admittedly it is a slightly odd angle, I do not consider a saddle to be flat and level when the pommel is as high or higher than the cantle.

A saddle that is tilted up in front, especially to such an extent (!), is with few exceptions a sign of a tree that is too narrow.

Other posters have noted nit picky aesthetic issues with the photos; to me the lack of concern for the horse's comfort and the failure to address an obvious (and pretty basic) saddle fit issue is the bigger problem.

I think that the question of saddle fit arises from the angle the photo was taken. Also, keep in mind that saddles fit differently without being weighted down by the rider. When I borrowed a Butet for my horse, it initially looked pommel-high on him, but with my weight in, it sat levelly. (Same for a lot of other saddles that are cut with a lot of wither clearance.)

[Fancy That]

Not commenting on saddle but the horse in my opinion is WAY WAY overweight! WHY do we feel our hroses have to be obese to look good?? No wonder so many horses are having leg and foot problems, I would never let one of mine get that fat! He is an adorable horse, but take about 100 pounds off him!

My jaw dropped to the floor when I saw the cover and that drop-dead gorgeous horse!!!!! Star-burst, dark dapple grey, aside.....he is just my favorite type of horse...period.

Yes- overgrown pony.....round, curvy...I love it. I was gonna post here about him, but luckily searched first and saw you guys already asking about his breeding!

Not only is he lovely, but I really like the way GM rides him. Still on the aids, but nowhere near the "overly-cranked in, BTV" style. Just like an easy-to-ride hunter should look.

I know some may think he's fat but I just adore that type.

Holsteiner experts - is he typical for this bloodline/cross???

Still wiping the drool off my keyboard :)

[feather river]

Does anyone know the breeding and maybe history of the horse "Independence" that is featured in the George Morris/Premium Butet/Practical Horseman ad?
He looks so Baroque for a hunter and he really catches my eye. Thank you.

way too cresty a neck for a hunter in my opinion. I don't like that look at all. And GM is starting to look really unhealthy.

[feather river]

:lol: That IS actually where the term "crest fallen" comes from... :yes:

I've seen video of Carolus I, and he was REALLY lovely, and yes, VERY big. Just loped around the 4ft course happily like it was nothing...

I'd take that juicy grey, Independence -- big booty and ALL -- in a HEARTBEAT!!!! :winkgrin:

Seb :)

looks like a fat pony ready to founder to me:eek:

[MHM]

And GM is starting to look really unhealthy.

Are you kidding me?!? :eek:

He's over 70 years old! If I'm still around when I'm 70, I can only hope I'll still be able to sit on a horse, never mind demonstrate such good form for a magazine article! Please.

[feather river]

Are you kidding me?!? :eek:

He's over 70 years old! If I'm still around when I'm 70, I can only hope I'll still be able to sit on a horse, never mind demonstrate such good form for a magazine article! Please.

I did not say he looked old. That is how you interpreted what I said. I said he doesn't look healthy. Look at some photos of him a year or so ago, he looked pretty fit and healthy. He doesn't look good to me in those PH photos--looks unhealthy. Please yourself. I hope you are healthy when you are 70.

[MHM]

Well, when I saw GM in Florida this winter, he looked healthy enough to me.

I wish him (and you) continued good health.

[Coppers mom]

http://www.beval.com/content/GeorgeMorrisPR.html

Looking at this picture, the saddle appears, to me at least, to be notably too small for the horse.

Unless I am missing something about the pommel design, and admittedly it is a slightly odd angle, I do not consider a saddle to be flat and level when the pommel is as high or higher than the cantle.

A saddle that is tilted up in front, especially to such an extent (!), is with few exceptions a sign of a tree that is too narrow.

Other posters have noted nit picky aesthetic issues with the photos; to me the lack of concern for the horse's comfort and the failure to address an obvious (and pretty basic) saddle fit issue is the bigger problem.
Agreed, that's the first thing I noticed, not dirty boots or a flapping chin strap. It still looks very high in the pommel when George is riding.

I have to admit, I didn't notice anything else about him until I read it on here. I guess I just don't pay enough attention, haha (shall we add that to the list of reasons none of us are GM?)

One of the lesson kids did pick it up in the barn though. She looked at me with the biggest, sweetest eyes and said, "CM, who's that hairy man?" :lol: The things kids say!

[Elementgrl2]

I have this saddle, I got in when it first came out last year, and I LOVE IT! The FB2 tree fits great, along with the intergrated panels.

[vineyridge]

way too cresty a neck for a hunter in my opinion. I don't like that look at all.

Agreed. He does look almost like an Iberian horse to me; very dressagey look. Is he a hunter or jumper? Because one thing that's been mentioned is that sometimes Europeans will pimp dressage bred horses who can't do dressage to America as Amateur Hunters, since our low level Hunters don't have to have scope in jumping, almost any horse they breed can jump SOME, and young horse dressage training can carry over to hunters and make training the correct form easier.

["A"HunterGal]

Small personal brag, though NONE of it is my doing! I was lucky enough to prep ride Independence at the Cap Challenge last year, and he is JUST as much fun to ride as he looks!!! Comfy, amazing feel, SO much fun, and you know you're getting looked at, so it keeps you on your game! Sometimes getting to sit on such amazing horses, even if it's at 5am and nobody that day will know that you had a small role in getting the horse to the ring, makes everything else worth it. :)

And that crest makes you feel like your hands are super low, and I can see how it makes the saddle looks small. He is a big horse! BUT SO SWEET AND WONDERFUL!

[Seven-up]

Agreed. He does look almost like an Iberian horse to me; very dressagey look. Is he a hunter or jumper? Because one thing that's been mentioned is that sometimes Europeans will pimp dressage bred horses who can't do dressage to America as Amateur Hunters, since our low level Hunters don't have to have scope in jumping, almost any horse they breed can jump SOME, and young horse dressage training can carry over to hunters and make training the correct form easier.

He's done the 4 foot hunters.

[TheOrangeOne]

He's done the 4 foot hunters.

And darn well might I add.

[mbhorse]

Sometimes getting to sit on such amazing horses, even if it's at 5am and nobody that day will know that you had a small role in getting the horse to the ring, makes everything else worth it. :)

Maybe it's just me, but if I were to sing the praises of a horse I don't know that I'd be advertising the fact that it had to be worked at 5am to get it to the ring.

[Tha Ridge]

Maybe it's just me, but if I were to sing the praises of a horse I don't know that I'd be advertising the fact that it had to be worked at 5am to get it to the ring.

Um, a lot of horses go out for a light hack in the morning before the show or jump around a bit. It's not a bad or abnormal thing. Lighten up.

[meupatdoes]

Maybe it's just me, but if I were to sing the praises of a horse I don't know that I'd be advertising the fact that it had to be worked at 5am to get it to the ring.

Are you for real?

Sometimes people have more than one horse to do.

More often, that's just when the ring is OPEN.
You can't just saunter in in the middle of the first years and say, "Hello everyone, I chose to sleep in, could y'all just wait a minute while I stretch my horse's legs and show him the spooky stuff?"

I just got back from taking my *just*-turned-four y.o. around the young hunters under saddle at Devon. He had never been to a horse show before in his life (unless you count one teensy local schooling show with three horses in his class). The second I found out they let you school in the Dixon Oval before the show opened, you bet your patootie the alarm got set for 4am and we were in the ring by 5:30 going, "This is a grandstand, it doesn't bite, and this is how we are going to canter down this longside past the ingate, etc." There was no other time to do that because that is when the ring was OPEN.

Then he rested in his stall until it was time for his big moment later in the afternoon.

Do you really have an issue with that?

As for Copper's Mom, yeah, I saw the actual PH in a tack store yesterday and interestingly enough GM's weight did not appear to miraculously change the tree size of the saddle. Still looks pommel high and much too narrow to me, even with George in a two point with all of his weight over the front end.

[ASB Stars]

As close as I've ever been to GM was when I used to do the hunters, and he critqued me to my mother, at Devon. End of story.

However, I do think that this horse is stunning, but he looks like a founder waiting to happen, and I find that part troubling. His neck screams metabolic- IMHO. I love his looks, and attitude, and I worry for his health. Just my .02.

Also, GM does need to tighten up that chin strap. There is walking the walk, and taking the talk. And it isn't like he is messing up his hair. :lol:

["A"HunterGal]

Maybe it's just me, but if I were to sing the praises of a horse I don't know that I'd be advertising the fact that it had to be worked at 5am to get it to the ring.

Ummm...ok....do I REALLY have to add that I only hacked him around for about 30 minutes so he could stretch his legs in the morning before showing in the regular workings, and that I had about 3 other horses to do the same with so I had to start RIGHT when the ring opened?


Sheesh...why do people always assume the worst?

[lauriep]

It is truly a reflection of this BB that there is a thread 6 pages long on a horse's appearance, a chin strap, a SADDLE PAD billet strap, the photography, the braids, with only what, 2 mentions of the CONTENT and INTENT of the article?! Which is an excellent article on classic position and riding.

If you all would spend a fraction of the time reading and riding that you do complaining and criticising, you would probably be better riders. Sheesh!

Please note the first part of my sig line....

[feather river]

It is truly a reflection of this BB that there is a thread 6 pages long on a horse's appearance, a chin strap, a SADDLE PAD billet strap, the photography, the braids, with only what, 2 mentions of the CONTENT and INTENT of the article?! Which is an excellent article on classic position and riding.

If you all would spend a fraction of the time reading and riding that you do complaining and criticising, you would probably be better riders. Sheesh!

Please note the first part of my sig line....

how do you know what kind of riders we are? Are you a part of the rider police?;)

[feather river]

As close as I've ever been to GM was when I used to do the hunters, and he critqued me to my mother, at Devon. End of story.

However, I do think that this horse is stunning, but he looks like a founder waiting to happen, and I find that part troubling. His neck screams metabolic- IMHO. I love his looks, and attitude, and I worry for his health. Just my .02.

Also, GM does need to tighten up that chin strap. There is walking the walk, and taking the talk. And it isn't like he is messing up his hair. :lol:

I agree with the founder comment. You would think that they could have picked a better looking horse. Way too much crest and too thick a neck--that thickness alone makes suppling a necissity.

[lauriep]

I agree with the founder comment. You would think that they could have picked a better looking horse. Way too much crest and too thick a neck--that thickness alone makes suppling a necissity.



And you can diagnose a IR/founder prone horse via a picture. I stand by my observations. More riding/reading, less criticising of someone who ALL can learn from.

[ASB Stars]

And you can diagnose a IR/founder prone horse via a picture. I stand by my observations. More riding/reading, less criticising of someone who ALL can learn from.

Yes, actually. But then, one of the top Vets from New Bolton also goes along with the crestiness, and fat on the tail head as tell-tale- even medicating before blood work- Gawd forbid!! But, heck- who is HE, anyway.

And, of course, perusing your profile, you've got no dog in this fight, either... :lol: This is a BB- a large of part of it's purpose is allowing people to opine- in a small minded way, or otherwise, on occasion. :winkgrin:

["A"HunterGal]

And you can diagnose a IR/founder prone horse via a picture. I stand by my observations. More riding/reading, less criticising of someone who ALL can learn from.

Hear Hear! And btw, the horse is fine, perfectly healthy and gorgeous. He just has a thick crest. Some people have thick hips, some people have big calves, and are still a perfectly healthy weight and fitness level. He happens to have a thick crest. :)

I thought the article was fantastic. I'm glad that PH commissioned it.

[lauriep]

Yes, actually. But then, one of the top Vets from New Bolton also goes along with the crestiness, and fat on the tail head as tell-tale- even medicating before blood work- Gawd forbid!! But, heck- who is HE, anyway.

And, of course, perusing your profile, you've got no dog in this fight, either... :lol: This is a BB- a large of part of it's purpose is allowing people to opine- in a small minded way, or otherwise, on occasion. :winkgrin:

Yes, those are useful guidelines WHEN YOU PUT YOUR HANDS ON A HORSE AND CAN FEEL CRESTINESS, FAT DEPOSITS, ETC. And run tests. But I doubt any vet would tell you they can disgnose same FROM A PICTURE.

Horses can have thick, short necks and NOT be cresty, and they can also be cresty and NOT IR. You have to have other facts to make such a diagnosis. NOT just a picture.

Yes, George is a friend of mine, but that is most definitely not why I defend him. I defend him because he is a master at what he does and what he knows. And I CAN guarantee you that there is NO ONE here who can't learn something from the man. And I also think that the cattiness and small minded criticisms by anonymous posters doesn't speak well of those who participate.

[feather river]

Hear Hear! And btw, the horse is fine, perfectly healthy and gorgeous. He just has a thick crest. Some people have thick hips, some people have big calves, and are still a perfectly healthy weight and fitness level. He happens to have a thick crest. :)

I thought the article was fantastic. I'm glad that PH commissioned it.

yes, but for a magazine article, we don't really want to promote a thick crest, thick hips or big calves--unless we are selling weight watchers food.:winkgrin:

[feather river]

Yes, George is a friend of mine, but that is most definitely not why I defend him. I defend him because he is a master at what he does and what he knows. And I CAN guarantee you that there is NO ONE here who can't learn something from the man. And I also think that the cattiness and small minded criticisms by anonymous posters doesn't speak well of those who participate.

The only comments I made in my post was (1.) the horse has too cresty a neck--they could have picked a nicer looking hunter, and (2) George doesn't look healthy to me. I have seen him looking better in photos from a year or two ago.

I don't feel either comment is catty or a small minded criticism. George is a public figure and so when he places himself in magazine articles he has to take the comments/ I assumed he picked the horse, and I fault him for that. As to his health, I was just making an observation. Don't be so defensive!

[magnolia73]

I think given the focus of the article- very focused on head placement, bend of neck etc. that a horse without such a cresty neck should have been found. Lovelly horse, but hard to see what those muscles are doing. A more normal example of what most people ride would have been nice. But its an excellent article nonetheless. Like the emphasis on back to front, the loopy reins in some shots and the self carriage. GM sure didn't see saw, slam and cram or pull that horse together!

[lauriep]

The horse has a short, thick and I agree, not attractive neck. But you can't determine crestiness unless you can feel it. He is a "pony" horse, but it is the horse Beval chose for the ads. GM calls him "lovely." He has been near him and, obviously, ridden him. Who are we to second guess?

He says in the article that he asked AFTER the photo shoot if he could "use some ofthe photos for an article." So it seems he used what he saw as good photos of a nice horse that illustrate what he was trying to teach. Isn't that enough?

[magnolia73]

Maybe a shoot with multiple horses would have been helpful. I don't think it necessarily reflects on GM, but on the magazine. And they often choose photos for their instructional pieces that lack in some capacity. Actually, some photos of horses of varying conformation traveling correctly (according to GM) would be extremely educational.

[MHM]

I have to wonder if GM would be inclined to think of such a thing again, based on the reaction here. I certainly have doubts that Beval or the owner of this horse would be inclined to let him use their photos again.

[CBoylen]

Maybe it's just me, but if I were to sing the praises of a horse I don't know that I'd be advertising the fact that it had to be worked at 5am to get it to the ring.
Everyone's first horse gets worked around 5am. Otherwise you don't get to the rest of them before the ring closes at 7am.

The horse is quite a successful 4' working hunter. Its people know their job. Its built on a large scale naturally, but that hasn't hindered its career. The criticism of the horse and implied criticism of its program is somewhat distasteful. It's a horse any of us would be lucky to own, and it's well cared-for.

[ASB Stars]

The horse is quite a successful 4' working hunter. Its people know their job. Its built on a large scale naturally, but that hasn't hindered its career. The criticism of the horse and implied criticism of its program is somewhat distasteful. It's a horse any of us would be lucky to own, and it's well cared-for.

I appreciate, and respect your opinion, and obvious loyalty, and "circle the wagons" protection of your peers.

I have a few horse built on a "large scale". This horses' proportions are added to by excess weight. If he were to be evaluated on that delightful scale they use, I am fairly sure he is about a 9. Really.

He may be marvelous, and frankly, I do not doubt it. But he is hog rolling fat, as well.

[lauriep]

I appreciate, and respect your opinion, and obvious loyalty, and "circle the wagons" protection of your peers.

I have a few horse built on a "large scale". This horses' proportions are added to by excess weight. If he were to be evaluated on that delightful scale they use, I am fairly sure he is about a 9. Really.

He may be marvelous, and frankly, I do not doubt it. But he is hog rolling fat, as well.

CBoylen has at least seen the horse IN PERSON! Have you? Her post did not seem to be "circling the wagons," but REAL information presented to all the posters here who seem to know so much about a horse they have never seen in person.

[Justbay1]

This thread is just getting silly or just stupid about this nice horse and rider.

This is a wonderful horse that is successful at what he does. I have been in the jog behind him plenty.;) I would love to have him standing in my barn aisle. A wonderful horse in a very good program.

And this is also ridiculous to discuss how good or bad GM looks in his photo shoot. Perhaps his makeup artist did not make it that day.

Good grief.

Oh, and being that he is an import, it is very possible he was a stallion later in life before he came over here. So, that might attribute to his neck too. FWIW.

:confused:

[showjumpers66]

I absolutely agree. He is a lovely horse. It is just our preference to keep ours "fit" rather than fat. This seems to be a trend in the hunters rather than a problem with this particular horse. Rather than picking on the horse, maybe we should pick on the trend. :winkgrin:

Not commenting on saddle but the horse in my opinion is WAY WAY overweight! WHY do we feel our hroses have to be obese to look good?? No wonder so many horses are having leg and foot problems, I would never let one of mine get that fat! He is an adorable horse, but take about 100 pounds off him!

["A"HunterGal]

Ok, though I know I should let it go....I just have to agree with CBoylen and Lauriep. It's not circling the wagons, it's defending the horsemanship of the people who manage the horse, who btw, are meticulous in the care of their horses. I have also seen him in person. He is not overfed, and is not overweight. That's simply the way he's built.

Now some people might not LIKE that look on a hunter, which is fine, but why even voice that? Is it necessary? Who cares?

And though I'm a hypocrit for opening my mouth again myself, can we please stop talking about this?

[Arathita]

Wow - 7 pages and only about 3 posts on this horse's breeding. :)

Thank you to the posters who enlightened me on this horse's breeding-his build makes alot more sense to me now. I am happy to read from one poster that he rides as cool as he looks. Thank you.

A.

[vineyridge]

I'm old school and like the TB look in hunters. I like 'em long and low. If Independence is what is winning in the hunters today, what chance do we have bringing TBs back into the upper levels ring? He is so far from my idea of what a hunter is and should be that it almost makes me want to cry.

This comment has nothing to do with weight or crestiness; it just has to do with type.

[cloudyandcallie]

Ok, though I know I should let it go....I just have to agree with CBoylen and Lauriep. It's not circling the wagons, it's defending the horsemanship of the people who manage the horse, who btw, are meticulous in the care of their horses. I have also seen him in person. He is not overfed, and is not overweight. That's simply the way he's built.

Now some people might not LIKE that look on a hunter, which is fine, but why even voice that? Is it necessary? Who cares?

And though I'm a hypocrit for opening my mouth again myself, can we please stop talking about this?

As a person who loves the "old style elegant TB" like my mare, but also loves the "old style" WB, I agree that the horse looks fine. Anyone remember a few years ago when Cumano jumped clean with 4 different riders? He is the traditional european WB, heavy and thicknecked,, bred to jump, He lumbered around the ring as I watched on tv and jumped clean over every jump, not even close to the rails. Nope the WBs with less TB in them like Holsteiners are don't look like TBs, but they aren't supposed to. I like TBs for the way they look, and I like WBs to look like WBs, not TBs. (and my wb is 1/2 tb and 1/10 arab)
I do like it though that the horse in question makes my WB's neck look long and lean.:lol:

[MintHillFarm]

I have to wonder if GM would be inclined to think of such a thing again, based on the reaction here. I certainly have doubts that Beval or the owner of this horse would be inclined to let him use their photos again.

I think this is a good point!

[vxf111]

I have to wonder if GM would be inclined to think of such a thing again, based on the reaction here. I certainly have doubts that Beval or the owner of this horse would be inclined to let him use their photos again.

Do we REALLY think GM is THAT thin-skinned and unable to take criticism?

[MHM]

Do we REALLY think GM is THAT thin-skinned and unable to take criticism?

I think the owner who kindly provided the horse and the company that kindly provided the photos, only to see them trashed here, might not have enjoyed all the criticism.

If I let my horse's photo be used for such an article, and then read some of these comments about him, I would not be too happy about it.

[Pirateer]

I think thought that the horse was adorable in the Beval Photo online, and Drop Dead Sexy in the PH article :)

[Angel Undercover]

I think thought that the horse was adorable in the Beval Photo online, and Drop Dead Sexy in the PH article :)

Agreed. I thoroughly enjoyed the article, and am in love with the horse. He's like a big overgrown pony I want to hug! :D

[vxf111]

I think the owner who kindly provided the horse and the company that kindly provided the photos, only to see them trashed here, might not have enjoyed all the criticism.

If I let my horse's photo be used for such an article, and then read some of these comments about him, I would not be too happy about it.

I see your point about the owner of the horse (who I refrained from commenting on except to say he's LOVELY) and maybe potentially about Beval (who is a big enough company, IMHO that they should have crossed the "t"s and dotted the "i"s on their photo shoot and frankly I think were happy for the extra press notwithstanding the comments here) but do we really think GM is that sensitive that a handful of people commenting on sloppiness on a bulletin board will cause him to go into seclusion. Really?

[MHM]

I see your point about the owner of the horse (who I refrained from commenting on except to say he's LOVELY) and maybe potentially about Beval (who is a big enough company, IMHO that they should have crossed the "t"s and dotted the "i"s on their photo shoot and frankly I think were happy for the extra press notwithstanding the comments here) but do we really think GM is that sensitive that a handful of people commenting on sloppiness on a bulletin board will cause him to go into seclusion. Really?

I don't think for one moment GM will be too worried about any comments made here about him, but he might think twice before he exposes another horse's owner to so many unkind remarks about a very nice horse who is probably the owner's pride and joy. (That would be my reaction, anyway.)

The PH article made it sound like GM saw an opportunity to use the existing photos for educational purposes, and the other parties generously agreed to it.

How likely is it that the same thing will happen again anytime soon, do you suppose?

[vxf111]

I would gladly weather a barrage of comments if George wanted to ride my horse :):)

I agree with you that the comments about the horse were a little on the rude side (and I wouldn't kick that horse out of my barn, if you know what I mean. Stunning horse!) I think the comments about the turnout/safety issues/styling of the photos are a whole 'nother matter.

I also think Beval probably appreciated the free advertising, notwithstanding the comments. Got people talking about the saddle, right? I bet they'd do it again in a heartbeat, maybe even with a little more attention to detail.

[MHM]

We'll just have to wait and see if such a thing happens again.