Horse Show question

[cleartheoxer]

so we have a couple of "bigger" (and I use that term lightly" shows in this area, well, they're big for this area but I don't even think they are "A" rated shows. Anyway, there is one series where there are four barns who put the shows on together but their open to anyone. It's a hunter/jumper series. Okay, so I know people who rode in one of the shows recently. They did remarkably well (people even commented) but they didn't place at all. Now, the funny thing is that "it seemed like" the people who were placing were from the barns who were involved in putting the shows on. Is it just me or are there horseshow politics involved here? Does that really go on? Help me out with this because I believe it does but I don't want to seem like a pessimist.

[mrsbradbury]

What was the context of remarkably well?

Had the rider/ horse improved dramatically? Is this a difficult horse that was handled with finesse and style? You have take these comments with a grain of salt, and keep the whole picture in mind.

The placings are the result of the judging, and I do truly believe that 99% of judges are honest, ethical and judge the horse in the ring, compared to it's company.

It is likely that the barns that do well over and over have a system that works, and they consistently put down correct trips. Also, if these barns are the ones organizing the shows, they understand showing, probably just run a tighter ship.

I can see why people think that ribbons are won with horse show politics. The same trainers get the best ribbons. Hmmm. I think it is something in their program. They're around a lot, they build comraderie with the managers and show staff, so it seems political.

A good round and a nice horse gets rewarded in any company.

[Midge]

A rider can have the trip of their lives and it still won't be as good as the competition. It's good not to confuse ones 'personal best' and 'the best.'

[GGsuperpony]

If the judge did always pin Host Trainer's kids over everyone else, pretty soon no one except those kids would come to the show - then Host Trainer likely wouldn't be able to afford to put on the show, even if it is four barns putting it on together. So from a practical stand-point, it's to Host Trainer's advantage to make the judging fair.

I find that a lot of times at these types of shows, Host Trainer's kids *do* pin very well. But that's not because of cheating - it's because they are at the type of barn that is efficient and successful enough to put on the show, which is a very time-consuming and expensive proposition. The barn's ability (both financially and time-wise) to put on a show *usually* means the trainer is particularly effective / good at his or her job. So you have the "best of the best" local barn competing against other local barns.

Now, if you said, "Does Host Trainer intentionally make his shows cheap enough that he attracts a demographic which is unlikely to beat his kids?"

That I would agree with. They'd be wise to make their shows cheaper than all the other shows they attend - that way they attract a crowd that's not as likely to beat them! :lol:

Just my two cents... Others may have had different experiences.

[Addison]

You may have witnessed a combination of all of the above and yes, there could be some politics involved!

The kids from the home barn may actually have better performances as they and their horses are acllimated to the environment. Of course that can back fire too. Some horses are terrible when they show at home because they are upset by the extra activity, horse trailers....

[superpony123]

I could have the best trip of my life, but its always possible that it may not be as good as someone else i'm riding against. While it's understandable that we'd like to blame show politics here, usually it's not the actual case. If the show was held at the host's farm, they DO have the home-turf advantage: but that isn't political, it just means the horses and riders know everything about the ring they'll be riding in and know what to expect, which is indeed an advantage, but it's entirely fair.

[Go Fish]

Unless you sit through the class and watch every trip put down, you really don't know how you compare with everyone else who showed that day. It will really open your eyes if you attend a show as a spectator, sit in the stands and watch the entire class. Bring paper with you and score the class yourself. Wait around for the placings and see how you compare. By doing this, I guarantee it will wipe out "it must have been politics" right off the map.

[Buckskin Lover]

Hello, I'm new here and I want to tread lightly, but you guys have a thread that is a "hot button" issue at a show series we attend here in Ohio. Cleartheoxer, the short answer to your question from our barn's standpoint is yes, we do believe judging politics exist in horse shows, especially pleasure shows. The sad thing is, that it's becoming so blatant that some of the judges don't even try to hide their biases anymore. The one thing that we are starting to notice a lot of is barns being "judge groupies", in that they find a judge that is very favorable to their riders, and they get that particular judge's schedule for the season and go to nearly all of the shows that the judge will be at.

The next thing we are noticing is that some of the judges are so smug and arrogant that they feel they are accountable to nobody, and therefore have no reason to give you an explanation for any of their placings. Two weeks ago we had an English Flat class that was so large (32 riders) that it was divided into two splits. Out of the first split, one of the riders that merited a callback was a girl who could not get her horse to canter on the correct lead in either direction. When she came back in for the finals, she was still having difficulty getting her horse to pick up its lead. So, as if him giving her a callback wasn't bad enough, he ends up pinning her second place for the class. When questioned about his placing he replied "yeah, I knew she was on the wrong lead, but given how bad some of the riders and horses were in this class, I had to choose from the best of the worst". I simply asked him "so, your telling me that out of 32 riders, they all cantered on the wrong leads? I have a hard time believing that for just one split, let alone both splits and the finals". After that, he refused to answer anymore of my questions, using that copout excuse that "all judge's decisions are final".

As recently as yesterday, 6/14/09, we had that judge I was referring to in the "judge groupie" remark. A barn that went all last summer and never came to our series, and up until now hadn't been there neither. Once again, in an English Flat Class, a trot was called for. In the shows that we go to, if a trot is called for, then it means a posting trot, unless a sitting trot is specifically called for. The five riders that she pinned were from the said barn that we had never seen before, and the rider that placed 3-5 all performed sitting trots. Eight other riders, who had the correct diagonals and leads, were shafted out of legit chances at placing because of this obvious favortism.

Is it that this is because we are on an open show circuit and the judges that we are getting are "bush league" judges? I do know that the judges we are getting are pulled from the Ohio 4H current year horse judges list. Since they are 4H judges, is there any kind of complaint system in place? There's so much more I could tell you about some of these judges, but I don't want to make too many waves with my first post on here.

I will say this though: here in Ohio, Show Jumping, Barrel Racing, and Poles are becoming more popular than ever, and Pleasure Show organizers are starting to see the number of attendees dwindle. One would think that would tell them something, but everybody wants to be blind to the obvious.

[findeight]

it's because they are at the type of barn that is efficient and successful enough to put on the show, which is a very time-consuming and expensive proposition. The barn's ability (both financially and time-wise) to put on a show...

Now, if you said, "Does Host Trainer intentionally make his shows cheap enough that he attracts a demographic which is unlikely to beat his kids?"

That I would agree with.
Just my two cents... Others may have had different experiences.

Well, you contradict yourself there. Shows are expensive to host and there are fixed costs like the sound system, jumps, decoration, judges, EMT (if required/provided) and other staff. It costs what it costs. You cannnot provide all this at your home barn for your own clients and cheap it up to attract lesser just so you can beat them. You will not break even much less make enough to justify tying up your barn for 3 days hosting a deliberate money loser. It's a business, if you make more teaching lessons that weekend, you are not going to host a cheapo horse show unless you want to run yourself out of business.

Any barn that does host shows in house is stupid if they do not bend over backward to avoid any taint of favoritism BUT they can't do a thing about any of their clients riding better on better quality horses then the competition and winning things.

For the OP...unless you sat and watched it, you really don't know how they did against the competition. They could have had the ride of their lives and still not measured up...and remember...Hunters are judged on the horse's quality, movement and style over fences. A perfect trip can be correctly beaten by a lesser trip on a better qualty, better moving, better jumping horse. And anybody who says they were completely mistake free is delusional...or the rider's Mother.

[MoonWitch]

The thing you have to remember is that judging is subjective and you have to ride for yourself and your horse - no one else. We were at a show recently where my student did remarkably well, but consistantly placed third behind the two "host barn kids" even though one was on the wrong diagonal 80% of the time, and the other kid was barely hanging on for dear life. It is what it is and you have to take the good with the bad.

On the other hand, I have come out of the ring after winning first to explain to myself that I had only "sucked the least" of the others, as I felt totally underdeserving of a blue ribbon.

At least jumpers have dropped rails and time faults that you easier to explain than why a certain judge pinned a certain way. Who knows? Maybe your kids pony reminded her of one that threw her 20yrs ago....:(

[RV]

I showed in the eqs this weekend. We got all the strides, leads and distances, but my jumper went around like a jumper - a very bold and forward ride (all the turns were appropriate, it was just forward).

It wasn't my prettiest ride, wasn't expecting to win BUT I would have thought we would have beat the girl who feel off at fence 6 - I guess fences 7-9 were optional? I placed 8th out of 8, she placed 7th out of 8 - isn't a fall an elimination?

And I would have thought clearing all the fences would be a bonus, but no, the horse who came down in the middle of the oxer, landed trotting, and fumbled into a canter - on the wrong lead - and proceeded to add two in the next line, blow a lead change and then circle before the last fence - also beat us (5th out of 8).

There were only 8 in the class, I went first and watched every trip. I wasn't the only one unhappy with the judging. We were there to see how my jumper woudl do in the eqs. so I could care less how I placed, but it was maddening to the riders going after points trying to qualify.

The show was hosted by a local association and was held at the facility where a BNT teaches, but not hosted by the BNT. Sure, they certainly have a solid program that turns out great riders and horses, there is no doubt about that, but the judging was terrible. All day rounds with major mistakes (falls, circles, HUGE chips) were placed high while solid rounds with comparatively minor mistakes (rubs, late changes etc.) didn't pin well. It was a small show so it was possible to watch each round and test and remember rounds, only 8-12 in each class. It was pouring rain and the footing was sloppy so there were no stellar rounds, everyone had mistakes, it was the order in which the mistakes were pinned that was appalling. Sure, it's all the judge's discretion, which makes it easy to stand behind favoritism.

I do think at local shows it is easier to get away with this. There are less riders in the classes so if a barn places 1-4th out of 6-10, it's possible they were the best, if the same barn pins 1-4 out of 50, then they either have an amazing program that GM would envy, or there is some favoritism going on.

[findeight]

It wasn't my prettiest ride, wasn't expecting to win BUT I would have thought we would have beat the girl who feel off at fence 6 - I guess fences 7-9 were optional? I placed 8th out of 8, she placed 7th out of 8 - isn't a fall an elimination?

And I would have thought clearing all the fences would be a bonus, but no, the horse who came down in the middle of the oxer, landed trotting, and fumbled into a canter - on the wrong lead - and proceeded to add two in the next line, blow a lead change and then circle before the last fence - also beat us (5th out of 8).



Well, if the show was rated by a USHJA affiliate (like a state or regional USEF H/J club) and points were awarded, you can write a letter and complain.

Most shows hosted by barns that are pointed by USHJA affiliates, even as locals, try to hire competent judges who are not blind, on the take and are capable of staying sober. Sounds like this one did not fit that criteria.;)

You have a better chance of fair judging at those affiliate shows and membership in those organizations is cheap enough and allows you to bitch about the more outlandish show stunts.

[RV]

Well, if the show was rated by a USHJA affiliate (like a state or regional USEF H/J club) and points were awarded, you can write a letter and complain.

Most shows hosted by barns that are pointed by USHJA affiliates, even as locals, try to hire competent judges who are not blind, on the take and are capable of staying sober. Sounds like this one did not fit that criteria.;)

You have a better chance of fair judging at those affiliate shows and membership in those organizations is cheap enough and allows you to bitch about the more outlandish show stunts.

Thanks, I am debating that. I don't have videos of all the rounds etc. so I am afraid it will be a he said she said game. . . but I do have the letter 1/2 drafted.

[findeight]

RV...if you completed the course and did not stop out or fall off, there is NO WAY somebody who did not complete the course because they fell off should pin at all, let alone above you, on any planet in the known universe.

You need not persue anything else other then this one point. She fell off before she was done. You did not. If you did something weird, like crossing your line 3 times constituting 3 refusals, you would have been eliminated and received no score and no ribbon, as the fallen rider should have been scored.

The only thing I can think of is you did that, crossed your line (and YES it counts in the Eq as well as Handy Hunters) enough times to refuse out but, in that case, you should have just been eliminated and so should that other rider who fell off. You don't get a ribbon, even last place, if you are eliminated. BUT this judge might have just given out all the ribbons anyway to be "nice".

That is the only way this can be explained. Otherwise the judge was an idiot, blind, on the take or drunk.

[GGsuperpony]

You will not break even much less make enough to justify tying up your barn for 3 days hosting a deliberate money loser. It's a business, if you make more teaching lessons that weekend, you are not going to host a cheapo horse show unless you want to run yourself out of business.

Findeight, that's a little more extreme than what I meant. I wasn't trying to imply there are people running shows at a loss for the sake of a handful of (unrated) ribbons for their clients.

When I said: "Does Host Trainer intentionally make his shows cheap enough that he attracts a demographic which is unlikely to beat his kids?" I meant that the barn will market a show to a level just below where they normally compete. That means less expensive programs, fewer fancy set-ups, less well-known judges, and therefore a cheaper price tag which in turn attracts people who are accustomed to showing a level or so lower than Host Trainer's clients.

This holds true for every show or show series run by a trainer in my area, at any rate. I know around here, if you show GHJA most of the time and in Ocala and Gulfport once in awhile, you put on a show that caters mainly to people who show locals and the occasional unrated GHJA. Or if you show from Vermont to Devon to WEF, a show you put on will be rated but not AA-rated.

This way of doing business makes sense to me. Hopefully the host trainer/barn turns a small profit on a well-run, enjoyable show, and the host barn's kids do well because they are big fish in a small(er) pond. Again, this isn't because of favoritism or cheating, but because when rated-show people compete against local-show people, the rated-show people often do better. That's all I was saying. :yes:

[RV]

That is the only way this can be explained. Otherwise the judge was an idiot, blind, on the take or drunk.

The course was straight forward, didn't cross my path I assure you. We were rather speedy so it was a rather ugly eq course, but I did stay on! It was the running joke throughout the day when people were complaining about the results and their rounds. It was a great topic of conversation. I am filling out the USEF form right now!

[findeight]

I am filling out the USEF form right now!

Do me a favor, send a copy or brief note saying you filed a complaint to the show management. Like I said, the fact you were beaten by a rider who was clearly eliminated under the rules of any division is enough, no need to go into lengthy opinions, that's enough and not an opinion. She fell off, you did not.

If they are like the shows I work at, sometimes they are unaware there is a problem with the judge. Sitting in the office all day or working the gate or announcers booth does not necessarily mean they are aware of what went on. After a while you sort of smile and turn a deaf ear to exhibitor complaints about judging because somebody is always unhappy plus people are usually too polite to the management staff when there is a real problem as they do not want to create a fuss.

Trust me, management will not want to hire this person back if they want anybody to come to their shows. But they have to know.

And, just for the record, I do work and show at home barn shows and, if anything, am judged all the harder for that fact. I once laid down a really good Hunter round but the horse ditched me walking out of the ring, of all the stupid, byatch things to do. That judge disqualified me as I was still IN the ring. Had she waited 10 more feet it would have been outside the ring and not counted. But she did not and I got NOTHING, I was a zippo out of 5 with 6 ribbons to award.

Just no excuse for this kind of incompetence and you must speak up.

[Giddy-up]

The one thing that we are starting to notice a lot of is barns being "judge groupies", in that they find a judge that is very favorable to their riders, and they get that particular judge's schedule for the season and go to nearly all of the shows that the judge will be at.

What you may call "judge groupies" I call smart showing. :D If there is a particular judge(s) that really like you & your horse, why not show in front of them whenever possible? Better than showing in front of a judge who won't even give you the time of day regardless if you can perform backflips one handed while jumping 8 perfect fences on your gleaming horse.

[Buckskin Lover]

What you may call "judge groupies" I call smart showing. :D If there is a particular judge(s) that really like you & your horse, why not show in front of them whenever possible? Better than showing in front of a judge who won't even give you the time of day regardless if you can perform backflips one handed while jumping 8 perfect fences on your gleaming horse.


I understand a little of what you're getting at.....I guess:confused:

I guess for us, we feel that if a barn's program is what they think it is, then they shouldn't have to follow a judge from show to show to get favorable results. To us, a barn like that lacks any kind of credibility, and if they are as good as they think they are, they should be able to pin before any judge at any show.

[iridehorses]

have some local/C shows like that around here.
eventually, the numbers have gone away to just them, and classes are not filling. sure, riding/showing is about having fun, but its not fun when there's 'cheating' going on . . .

[RugBug]

Findeight, that's a little more extreme than what I meant. I wasn't trying to imply there are people running shows at a loss for the sake of a handful of (unrated) ribbons for their clients.

Holy crap, do people really think that? Could they seriously think I'm going to all that work to provide an inexpensive day of showing (schooling) so the people from our barn can pick up more ribbons to add to their wall? Wow...and here I thought I was giving the people on a tight budget a place to show or get mileage for a greenie. I do this for the kids whose parents won't spend $200 for them to go to the next level up or who ride lessons horses that don't go off property.

I feel a little damned if I do, damned if I don't, right now.

FWIW, I've been running schooling shows for going on 5 years. I try to get the best judges possible in our price range and won't invite one back that was 'questionable'. And yes, questionable means placing all our riders over outsiders. Even so, the decent ones have been known to make interesting judging decisions from time to time. They're human. If I'm constantly left scratching my head, they're not coming back.

One thing I face is that most of the qualified people in my area are eventing focused. And let me tell you, eventers look for VERY different things than a H/J judge would.

Sometimes judging oddities are just that, odditites. Sometimes they are 'politically' based. You may have been the victim of a bad call that kept you out of the ribbons, but I guarantee that at some point, you will be the victim of a bad call that GIVES you the ribbon you don't deserve. It all comes out in the wash. And if it doesn't, you need to vote with your checkbook and go elsewhere.

[dags]

rugbug, I'm pretty sure I know of the shows you speak and i promise you noone thinks they're a cheap underproduction. Affordable? Yes. And on lovely grounds with a whole variety of classes and a wealth of support from the community. A lot of schooling circuits are a far cry from yours, what a shame. Kudos and by all means, keep it up!!

[Trixie]

I guess for us, we feel that if a barn's program is what they think it is, then they shouldn't have to follow a judge from show to show to get favorable results. To us, a barn like that lacks any kind of credibility, and if they are as good as they think they are, they should be able to pin before any judge at any show.

True, but I’ve gone to shows before based on the fact that I knew the judge was CREDIBLE. I don’t care much if I win or not, but I do care about fairness, and I’ve seen some really weird stuff at some shows. Like riding a competent (though not perfect) course and being beaten by a horse that did not finish the course for run outs and stops. I won’t show under that judge again.

I also generally won’t complain about the “fairness” of horse showing. If one barn is doing better than all the others, I’ll watch them and figure out what I can do to improve. Typically, it ISN’T politics, the people that are winning are just plain better.

[RugBug]

rugbug, I'm pretty sure I know of the shows you speak and i promise you noone thinks they're a cheap underproduction. Affordable? Yes. And on lovely grounds with a whole variety of classes and a wealth of support from the community. A lot of schooling circuits are a far cry from yours, what a shame. Kudos and by all means, keep it up!!

:D But I think you're thinking of the association you used to be involved in? My shows are literally VERY small one day schooling shows. Options to school a class for $5 or compete for $8. You can do a whole division for $24, possibly winning division champ with ribbon as well as a $10 gift card to Starbucks, iTunes, Jamba Juice or Chevron, and then check out at the office for a total of $34. IMO, it's a great place to get rider's/horse's feet wet in a relaxed atmosphere.

The assoc. you're thinking of is probably a few steps above us and I agree, they do a really nice job. ;) Love it now that they got new jumps. Ours used to be nicer. :lol: (ours are still nice, I just can't put together a full course of hunter jumps).

[magnolia73]

I was once a judge at a tiny inhouse schooling show. Let me tell you, it can be hard to judge in a best of the worse situation. There was one child on an adorable pony who rode neat as pin. She won every class she entered. It felt awkward to keep pinning her on top. The rest was just tough- wrong diagonals, eyes down, flappy legs and arms, ponies breaking. It gets hard to rank. OK, impossible, and you end up grasping at straws. I mean is 5 chips, 3 adds and a skipped change better than one trot jump, a cross cantered jump and a flyer?

That said, you'd have thought your judge would have been relieved that the girl fell and had one to put in last. My thought is that perhaps you went off course or the judge perceived that you did. At any rate, look at it as experience and take home what you need to improve for the next time, and don't worry about the judge or ribbons.

[Buckskin Lover]

True, but I’ve gone to shows before based on the fact that I knew the judge was CREDIBLE. I don’t care much if I win or not, but I do care about fairness, and I’ve seen some really weird stuff at some shows. Like riding a competent (though not perfect) course and being beaten by a horse that did not finish the course for run outs and stops. I won’t show under that judge again.

I also generally won’t complain about the “fairness” of horse showing. If one barn is doing better than all the others, I’ll watch them and figure out what I can do to improve. Typically, it ISN’T politics, the people that are winning are just plain better.

You see, you folks are in a circuit we want our girls to eventually end up in. Remember, we're in Ohio (think AQHA and Congress), and the way that many shows are judged, even the open breed shows are based off of AQHA standards. When it comes to hunters, I love how the AHSA feels that hunters should look. Nice collected frames, kind of a semi-Dressage look on the flat, rather than this "peanut pusher" look that AQHA and open breed judges are looking for. And when it a boils down to it, I know that's why often times our girls don't get looked at, is because they aren't riding their Quarter Horses with that AQHA impression of what a hunter is. Our trainer is really big on training her H/J riders with a big emphasis on Dressage in their flatwork, so chances are, most of these judges at these open breed shows are scratching their heads wondering "why are they riding like that". Sooner or later, we're going to find a judge that knows what real hunters should look like and pin the daylights out of our girls, or we're just going to get the show experience we need to move on up to the "true" hunter/jumper shows. All of our girls own Quarter Horses, and all pretty much feel the same about how AQHA judges hunters. Me personally, I'm finding that Quarter Horses are even becoming more popular as a Dressage mount, and I would love to see AQHA incorporate this more into their shows than what they do, but for some reason they don't.

Your comment about it typically not being politics, that a barn is just plain better, I, for the most part agree with. Often times, I feel that judges get stuck in the "can't see the forest because of the trees" mindset. When some judges know that a stellar performing barn is at a show, they fail to look beyond that barn's riders to see if anybody else is there performing better from another barn.