Devon Eq Scores (Thurs): How do you get a "6" or "22"?

[pwynnnorman]

We're trying to figure out scoring. I wasn't there, but I'd like to be educated about it, too. I'm told Lillian Keenan scored in the 80s. When I first heard of the "6", I though maybe it was a technical (as in technology) error, but I'm told there were several scores in the single or low double digits. For a moment there, I thought maybe they aren't scores, but ranks. But that can't be it. I'm told there were 170 or so entries in this particular class (Hunt Seat Medal). Are there mandatory penalties, now, for example (they use that sort of thing in reining, I think--like if you do only 3/4s of a spin, you are deducted, like, 1/2 point or something). Are rails or nicks or blown leads or refusals or something scored in a standard way, so they can add up (or subtract down)?

OK, here's another question, perhaps most relevant (and I know I could find out by reading the rulebook, but then I'd need interpretation anyway): What does "open numeric scoring" mean and is that how you can get a "6"?

[Jumpingfool]

Open numeric scoring is when the rider's score is anounced after they finish their trip.

A 22 was probably the result of two stops.

A 6 is hard to imagine. Maybe two stops, some trotting on course, several misses, etc. They only got a score at all because they had failed to be eliminated.

[findeight]

6 was probably a combination of dropped rails (and there is no limit how many you can drop) a stop (you only get 2 these days), blown lead changes and drastic Eq blunders like losing irons, dropping reins..stuff like that.

In fact, if the poor kid got jumped out of the tack and her irons while knocking down a rail but stayed on only to have a stop at the next fence then pull that rail, break to a trot twice and miss the rest of her lead changes? That would be well down. Add a few deductions for bad position and missed distances and I can see a 6.

Poor kid:no:. Probably something like the above and she got so rattled the wheels came off the rest of the round. Usually, they just say "below the cutoff" once they have enough to make the ribbons to spare the humiliation.

Anyway, Pwynn...they are not judged against a standard, more on the curve against the competition that day in that class. But there are conventional, traditional deductions for rails, stops, breaking to a trot and big blunders. The minor errors are on the curve...more or less. High hands for example or flat/broken wrists are deductions but as compared to that day's competition. Positon itself and effectiveness are subjective and that judge's opinion from where that judge is sitting compared to the rest in that class that day.

In other words...I have scored an 87 in Eq but can assure you it would not have been that against Lilly and a field of top riders...but it was against what I was against that particular day.

[Jumper221]

The only numerical scores in the Eq. were in the WIHS Jumper phase, which also has a time allowed. Time faults are usually deducted from the score the judge gives, so the 6 was likely a score of 40 or 20 (standard scores for refusals) with time faults subtracted.

[MHM]

The only numerical scores in the Eq. were in the WIHS Jumper phase, which also has a time allowed. Time faults are usually deducted from the score the judge gives, so the 6 was likely a score of 40 or 20 (standard scores for refusals) with time faults subtracted.
What this person said, plus WIHS jumper phase also deducts 4 faults for each rail down. That's how you can end up with a very low score if things go wrong.


It's based on the jumper format, hence the mandatory deductions.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Anyway, Pwynn...they are not judged against a standard, more on the curve against the competition that day in that class. But there are conventional, traditional deductions for rails, stops, breaking to a trot and big blunders. The minor errors are on the curve...more or less. High hands for example or flat/broken wrists are deductions but as compared to that day's competition. Positon itself and effectiveness are subjective and that judge's opinion from where that judge is sitting compared to the rest in that class that day.With a class of 170, how can you possibly judge on a curve? Does the judge go back and adjust scores after the ride?

[supershorty628]

With a class of 170, how can you possibly judge on a curve? Does the judge go back and adjust scores after the ride?

The class is split into sections - all 170 are not judged together.

[SaturdayNightLive]

Probably not, although this is probably how you end up with weird scores like a 73.5. "Better than that 73 I gave earlier, but not as good as that 74 I just saw..." Margins get smaller the more there are in the class.

Edit - this was supposed to be a response to Risk-Averse Rider. :)

[Izthatrt]

So glad P.Wynn asked. I sat and watched and had no clue as to how they were judging. Forgot all about time faults. Think that was due to my amazement at some of the low, single digit scores.(Poor kids) Some of the rides looked like they deserved a better score than they got(from where I was sitting) but I am certainly no expert. It looked like the big green wall at the top of the ring was catching quite a few riders off guard, but it was kind of hard to see from where I was(so hard to watch 2 rings at once)

[neigh.neigh]

I watched Lillie and she actually got a 68 in wihs... which was the only eq class they gave scores for so that was probably the one you are talking about. I wathced her trip and her distances weren't great, she was slow too. I got a 66 and my trip was good, i landed cross cantering in al line and had a couple not so perfect distances (granted I rode my 6 year old, who was perfect btw :D) But I though the scores were a little mean. I did watch the people who got scores of 6 and 9. They had two stops and were very slow and a little unorganized. I though it was mean to post those scores though.

Edit: there were a total of 8 people who got scores below ten that were above zero (four of them were ones!!!!!).... a little harsh!?!?!

[superpony123]

Oh man, a 6? okay, i can see a 22 if its one of those jumper phase parts, like in the WIHS medal or the talent search or something. but man, a 6?! wow, poor kid. i'd just die if i got a score of 6 and they ANNOUNCED it. i think they usually say "below the cutoff" or just don't say the score at all, but god, they ought to spare them of that !! either i'd cry from embaressment or i'd be so impressed with my awful ride that i'd have to laugh at the impossibly low score i got.

[Renn/aissance]

Edit: there were a total of 8 people who got scores below ten that were above zero (four of them were ones!!!!!).... a little harsh!?!?!

That's the point where you hope to god that enough have gone before you that the announcer can just say "That score was below the cutoff" and save you the embarrassment of repeating your score to anyone who asks. ;)

[mroades]

or...you get a one or a six...and you actually go home and practice and get better!

[twobays]

That's the point where you hope to god that enough have gone before you that the announcer can just say "That score was below the cutoff" and save you the embarrassment of repeating your score to anyone who asks. ;)

Or you make an "emergency dismount" before leaving the ring so you don't get a score at all. :lol:

[cantercutie]

I could be wrong, but I have to hope that there weren't really that many kids in there getting ones and because the judges usually avoid giving several people the exact same score that they actually were disqualified but the computer misunderstood. If you look in other classes, people that were disqualified are sometimes listed with a score of -993. It is possible that these kids got these scores, but I just hope it didn't actually happen. There must be someone on here who was actually there and can clear this up, no?

[Grover]

I don't think judges care about repeating scores at the bottom of the class. I was there and watched some of the first section. I saw one of the trips that scored a 1. Refusals, rails and time faults resulted in the score. A low score because of the refusals minus 4 for each rail and minus 1 for each second over the time allowed (those really add up when you have refusals)- it probably would have been in the negatives, but they gave her a 1 to show that she wasn't eliminated.
The "below the cutoff" thing only works 1) after you have enough scores for there to be a cutoff and 2) when each rider's score is not posted on the scoreboard. The announcer could say it, but the number is still up in lights under your name. Imagine if in addition to keeping track of all those rounds (the class was judged in two sections, each of which was California split after having just finished 3 sections of 40+ in the USET) the judges had to tell the announcer & the scoreboard person which scores could actually be announced and posted. That would be a very unnecessary distraction. Also, it is called OPEN numerical scoring.

[monstrpony]

or...you get a one or a six...and you actually go home and practice and get better!

Novel concept :rolleyes:

I mean, this is DEVON, after all--if you can't do better than single digits, perhaps you should be at the local schooling show, instead of Devon??

Unless, of course, things Just Didn't Go Well, in which case you say, oh, well, maybe next time, instead of dying of embarassment. That is, after all, Life.

[schmoe1]

There have been previous threads where people want every class to be open numerical scoring, so that they know where they stand in each class. On this thread, some are saying that exceptionally low scores should not be announced. Findeight's signature line about two people, three opinions seems very appropriate.

[twobays]

There have been previous threads where people want every class to be open numerical scoring, so that they know where they stand in each class. On this thread, some are saying that exceptionally low scores should not be announced.

Those two concepts aren't necessarily mutually exclusive...

[Renn/aissance]

Those two concepts aren't necessarily mutually exclusive...

Precisely--if you pulled two rails and missed a swap, you know about where you stood because these errors have a strict numerical penalty. Same thing if you had a refusal or you broke on course. I appreciate open numerical scoring but it wouldn't bother me if scores of, say, 55 or below were announced as "below the cutoff" assuming that enough rounds had gone before that there actually was a cutoff for ribbons or for the classic round.

[J. Turner]

I think they have to give a score in the WIHS Eq.

[IslandGirl]

The total number of entries was broken up into two sections of 66 or so. I was there as a spectator and I know one of the kids that got a "6." She's an excellent, naturally talented rider with limited financial means, and is riding a VERY green horse, but one with a lot of potential. Riding Big Eq is her dream, and she pursues it to the fullest extent possible. She doesn't work regularly with a trainer, and in large part has gotten where she is by herself (and more power to her for it). Sure, she would greatly benefit from riding with a pro regularly, as would her horse. But it can't and doesn't always work that way. That doesn't mean she doesn't belong in the same ring with the wealthy kids that ride 6 horses a day with a BNT (not that anyone has implied that).

I don't believe her round deserved a "6." She had a refusal/runout but, other than that, her round wasn't horrible. Added strides here and there and a couple of bobbles at a fence or two. It wasn't great, but it wasn't scary, either. There definitely were better, more deserving rides in the class, but the "6" was a horrendous insult in my opinion. This kid has placed quite well in very good company at other shows, but she doesn't ride with a BNT, nor is her name, or her horse's name, well known.

She's doing what she can in the pursuit of her dream, and doing it pretty darn well for someone with limited means. How many other people out there would ride a green horse in the WIHS (and the Maclay and the USEF/Pessoa Medal) at Devon for all the world to see, just to get the experience for herself and her horse, with an eye toward the future when she and her horse both will be better? Not many, I venture. There were some other really good kids with some really bad trips as well. I take my hat off to those kids who had the guts to go to Devon, knowing that it was unlikely they'd ever see a ribbon.

[Come Shine]

... but the "6" was a horrendous insult in my opinion.

I don't understand how a score could be considered an insult. My suggestion would be to sit down with a video of her round and go through what went wrong to see how 'little' mistakes can add up.

This kid has placed quite well in very good company at other shows, but she doesn't ride with a BNT, nor is her name, or her horse's name, well known.

None of that matters when you are judging the round in front of you.

[Heineken]

I wonder, though, if her money would have been better spent on some lessons rather than spending so much on the trip to Devon? Unless it's her last Jr. year...?

[MHM]

The judges don't get the kid's biography handed to them when they walk in the ring. They aren't told which kids were born with the silver spurs on the baby booties and which kids slave away at McDonalds or braid all night to cover the entries.

The judges just judge the round in the ring. If it deserves a low score, so be it. It's not an insult, it's a part of competition.

[pwynnnorman]

OK. Thanks for edifying me.

I guess the only thing I can add to this is...

OUCH! ;)

[silver2]

Eh, when you have numerical scoring this stuff happens. Any dressage rider or eventer can tell you about the time their horse threw a fit in the dressage ring and they got a string of zeros. It's humiliating at the time but you'll be able to look back and laugh. Eventually. When enough years have gone by ;)

At least in dressage the judges comments can make up for a terrible score "horse would probably be a nice mover if she stopped trying to run away" being my personal favorite. A friend got "Horse appears to be afraid of footing" which had us LOL'ing for a while. (He was, it was black rubber and it smelled funny).

[momof3]

I understand all the reasons for getting a "6", but would it hurt anyone to just announce 'score below cutoff' Maybe some riders 'have no business being there' according to others, but if they are donating (haha) their fees to the Bryn Mawr hospital, would it really hurt anyone just to announce 'below cutoff'?? For some kids the 'dream' is just to go to Devon, or go to Medal finals, etc. They know that they will never ribbon or be able to compete against the really BNT kids or the kids with a million(millions?) dollar string of horses, but geez, are they really putting anyone out? Yes, so the judges have to maybe sit through what, 10 or so extra kids @ 2 minutes each?

[Midge]

momof3, this is a competition, not the namby pamby 'everyone gets a blue ribbon so no one loses their self esteem' crap that goes on today. If they want to show at Devon and they enter a class with open scoring, then they are going to get scored. If it's all about keeping ones self esteem, then go enter the best of the worst class at the schooling show.

And if you go before there IS a cut off, you can't BE below the cut off.

[mroades]

Midge...you and I agree on something!! look the sky is falling...lol

[iridehorses]

rails & stops. some friends of mine had a rail in a junior classic, and a very decent course but scored in the mid 40s. also, a friend of mines horse had to rails in the derby and had a 25 & 30. the rails kill you...

[MHM]

The announcer may have said "below the cutoff" in some cases, but the riders did receive a score, which showed up on the scoreboard and in the results.

I know for sure that happened more than once in the pony ring.

[IslandGirl]

Heineken: Perhaps the money she spent at Devon would have been more wisely spent on some lessons. BUT, she's hoping she'll go back in years to come (I believe she has three more junior years) AND be able to be competitive. She wanted the experience for herself and her horse, and the "Devon feeling and experience" just can't be reproduced anywhere in order to practice. The hope is that when she IS able to be competitive, the nerves for her and her horse won't be as bad.

As I wrote, I was only there as a spectator, so had no input whatsoever before or after her round. But the round was recorded and I'm sure next time she comes to visit we'll go over it in detail.

[fordtraktor]

No one can recreate the Devon stage in a lesson, with course and nerves and announcer and whatnot, so I think it is perfectly reasonable to show at Devon even if you aren't competitive, but want the learning experience. Hopefully the kid sees the experience as a challenge to improve. It sounds like she does, and good for her.

There is nothing insulting about getting a bad score, either to the kid or the show. It happens to everyone at some point.

I am the first to say that show nerves have ruined more than one important eq round for me. Part of competing is learning to deal with those, and the only way to really practice is to go out there and make a fool of yourself until you stop caring.

[IslandGirl]

Thanks, fordtraktor.

[gasrgoose]

No one can recreate the Devon stage in a lesson, with course and nerves and announcer and whatnot, so I think it is perfectly reasonable to show at Devon even if you aren't competitive, but want the learning experience.

I thought you had to qualify to show at Devon, is that not the case with the Eq classes?

[fordtraktor]

Don't know, others can answer your question better, but -- qualifying and being competitive are two totally different things.

[Heineken]

The equitation at Devon is open entries, you do not have to qualify. It is often a good opportunity to see how you compare when playing with the "Big Guns" as the rider IslandGirl knows did. The classes are HUGE!

[Chef Jade]

I don't believe her round deserved a "6." She had a refusal/runout but, other than that, her round wasn't horrible. Added strides here and there and a couple of bobbles at a fence or two. It wasn't great, but it wasn't scary, either. There definitely were better, more deserving rides in the class, but the "6" was a horrendous insult in my opinion. This kid has placed quite well in very good company at other shows, but she doesn't ride with a BNT, nor is her name, or her horse's name, well known.




Assuming this was the WIHS Jumper Phase, there is a time allowed and penalty points deducted for each second over that time allowed. It is fully possible that with a refusal (and automatic 45 barring NO other mistakes) she also was over the time allowed by 39 seconds. Therfore all else being perfect (which you siad it wasn't) she would still get a 6.

Don't recall who the previous poster was that stated the judges were "mean." What a laugh! The judges are scoring it like they see it and according to the rules. They don't have personal vedettas against these riders but are doing their job at the most prestigious horse show in the country. If you don't like it, why even bother competing? You think because you show up and pay your entry fee the judges should give you a good score? If you have a bad ride you deserve a low score. Remember the judges are scoring what they see in front of them for 2 minutes, they aren't making a judgement on how well you ride in the schooling ring, at home, or on another horse who may not be so green.

[gasrgoose]

Don't know, others can answer your question better, but -- qualifying and being competitive are two totally different things.

You might be right. I tend to think if you are good enough to qualify for Devon then you should be able to compete. Isn't that the point? That's why the sign says "Where Champions meet"

But entering a show were most of the divisions required qualifying you should expect competetion that will be amazing and judging that will strict and tight. Devon is a show for champions to compare to other champions (horse & Rider). It sounds like it could be pretty tough for someone hoping to be a champion, but just isn't quite at that level yet.

If she got a 6 she and/or her horse probably didn't belong in the ring, no matter what the financial situation is of the other riders. At least that day, maybe in a year or two they will.

If the horse is really green maybe Devon isn't the best idea. We have a pony that we are going to break it's green next year. And sure it would be great if he had been every where and seen everything. But we don't take him to shows unless we feel confident HE will have a good experience. We don't want him hating horse shows, we want him to always (as much as possible) have a positive experience. I not so sure it was a positive experience for the horse if they weren't successful and the rider was upset.

That is just my opinion and I could be completly out of line.

[mroades]

Equ at Devon is open to anyone who is willing to pay to enter....no qualifying involved. Agreed, I would take the 6 and go home and work on it!

[indygirl2560]

At my last show, a girl trotted to get all her lead changes and got a horrible spot to every jump(not to mention adding strides in every line and flopping all over the place) and she got an 24 in her first round and an 18 in her second. I'm still not quite sure how she even qualified, (this was a local medal finals). Against tougher competition and in a larger class(there were only 30 in mine), I can see how some kids could manage a 6. I think it would be really embarassing for the kid if they announced it, but if you're getting a 6, something is wrong. I had a "bad" round with my pony where she missed her back lead twice and chipped one fence and we still ended up with a combined score of 76, (the winner of the class got a score of 87).

[Monarch]

I am sure getting a 1 or 6 score is very embarrassing. My opinion regarding these scores and their anouncement is, if your willing to own a 80-90 you better be prepared to own the 1-6. No matter the score it is just a blip in the time in the bigger picture of life and life goes on. The fact that it is anounced (score being good or bad) at least you know how you faired in the judges eyes for that day.
Real winners don't let failure stop them, they learn from it and move on - water under the bridge.