Lacking Dressage Basics In Jumping (Longer Rant)

[309016]

Please see other post "What is an FEI Cardholder".....because I think I may have been lied to based on what everyone here is saying. Thanks

[jse]

I'm with you. I truly think that people who jump need a few dressage lessons. Doesn't mean they have to go in depth but I think it should be required that if a horse doesn't have it's basic dressage then it shouldn't be jumping. Or visa versa if the rider can't get that basic dressage then they need not be jumping their horses....

[TheOrangeOne]

Man, I wanted to help this FEI dressage person who I know who lunged in too short vienna reins and kept her horse BTV the whole time but I figured I might not really know what is going on so I shut my mouth and went on about my way. It must be representative of good dressage though, since she rides with someone who does the GP. Right? ;)

ETA: I guess what irritates me is that dressage riders think they have a corner on the market of good flatwork. Just because it's being done as a means to something else doesn't mean it can't be done correctly. My hunter does tempi changes.

[yellowbritches]

I guess what irritates me is that dressage riders think they have a corner on the market of good flatwork. Just because it's being done as a means to something else doesn't mean it can't be done correctly. My hunter does tempi changes.
The funniest story I ever heard along these lines was of an ammie dressage rider going on a big trip to somewhere in FL during the winter circuit. It was somewhere where EVERYONE goes (Wellington, maybe). On her first day there, she was walking through the show grounds toward a couple of schooling rings. In one ring were people doing BEAUTIFUL dressage work...half pass, flying changes, you name it. Ahh, yes! she thought. The dressage ring. In the other ring were people with hollow, tense horses. Oh, they must be hunters and jumpers, she thought. She had it backwards. When she got closer, she realized the beautiful flatwork was being done by a bunch of jumper riders. The not so great flatwork were the dressage riders. :lol::lol::lol:

Good training is good training is good training. Bad training is bad training is bad training.

OP, I hope you aren't blaming the new trainer on the bad flatwork. If he's new, he may not have had enough time to get these kids whipped into shape. He might be just as baffled and frustrated with the bad riding as you are. However, don't think that h/j riders are ALL bad on the flat and that all dressage riders are great, soft compassionate riders...I just got back from a dressage show and was not terribly impressed with some of the riding I saw. I realized later, after watching one pair warm up in a very ungodly way, that the rider was the TRAINER. There are phenomanal riders in every discipline, and there are horrible riders in every discipline.

[grandprixjump]

One of the best ways for a jumper rider to improve their flat work, would be to do what I did, be a working student for a REAL FEI dressage rider. I was able to ride horses that went to the Olympics, horses on the way to the Olympics, and at different levels of training.
I think the reason most people frown at Dressage, is they think it's boring, and admittedly it kind of is, till you get to 4th level or so. But doing Canter Pirouettes,Tempi's, etc. shows you where it all comes from and what even the basics can do for a lot of horses.

[Heinz 57]

So I try to get them to do "ouside-rein to inside-leg" simple enough, then I say half-halt and they respond "whats that"?!? How can they not know what a half-halt is and do jumpers. I ask them to do an inside bend they all do it incorrectly, because they have all been taught an inside bend is the same thing and ouside-rein to inside-leg. I say put more weight on your inside seatbone, so they collapse at the waist.

Not to pick, but....

First off, I hope you mean "inside leg to outside rein", and you just typed that backwards. Or you were referring to some other aid. I can't think of an instance where you would ride a horse from the rein to the leg, at least not if you were attempting to ride "correctly".

Second, most schools of thought in dressage will NEVER tell you to weight either seatbone more than the other - that would make you, and your horse, crooked.

Third, I guarantee you they know what half halts are...but not necessarily by that name. Most anyone who has ever jumped, or had to figure out a distance, knows how to rate and balance a horse.

Nothing good is going to come of stereotyping and picking on people, especially not this way and on their 'home turf' in the H/J forum. If you want to complain about the incompetent, uindereducated amateur jumper riders and their FEI level trainers, you'll have more success elsewhere (like the dressage forum).

Open your mind. Close your mouth.

:) Just a message from your friendly, neighborhood eventer.

[Extreme Chaos]

Thank you BearCombs, I couldn't have said it better myself.:D

[CallMeGrace]

Thank you, bearcombs! And, OP, go watch a George Morris clinic one day. Whatever you may think of him and his "aura", he still teaches a mean "flatwork" lesson. ;)

[faraway46]

Ooooooo! Trainwreck! Let me get my popcorn ready! This is better than watching an action flick!!! :winkgrin:

[Chef Jade]

I as thinking. "what's an FEI Hunter/Jumper trainer?" :confused: Never heard that term, maybe the OP can enlighten me some more on the ways of hunters and jumpers? :winkgrin:

[magnolia73]

Yes, I'm fairly sure that the trainer does not advocate lead changes produced by running into a jump while slamming your horse in the mouth. I'd watch him teach before judging.

Most hunter trainers (and jumpers) have you do flat work. It is different than dressage in some cases. But really- most people don't advocate riding like a ham handed hack. Sometimes things look rough...... and not every dressage lesson is all harmony and light either. You see a lot of people *showing* in dressage bouncing, seesawing and otherwise riding poorly- the problem generally isn't in the instruction, just the execution..... they'll learn, just like the jumper girls will learn proper changes.

[Hattie]

I'm with Chef Jade - what's a FEI hunter/jumper trainer? I couldn't get past that in the post.

[Maya01]

ETA: I guess what irritates me is that dressage riders think they have a corner on the market of good flatwork. Just because it's being done as a means to something else doesn't mean it can't be done correctly. My hunter does tempi changes.

Does he do tempi changes because you ride them or you/your coach/trainer drilled them into him? :/ you see, there is a difference. But on the other hand you may be just one of those riders that do it right. I don't know because I doubt I have ever seen you ride.

It irritates me that some hunter riders think that they can ride dressage or anything that relates to dressage when they obviously can't. Don't get me wrong, some of them definitely can. IMHO I think that a good hunter horse and rider should have solid dressage basics. And dressage/eventers have to remember that it is a totally different discipline than ours and just accept that it has developed into something that it isn't supposed to be and just allow them to go on their merry way.

So to all of the fighters in here, get over it. This age old battle is getting quite old. :sigh:

[yellowbritches]

I as thinking. "what's an FEI Hunter/Jumper trainer?" :confused: Never heard that term, maybe the OP can enlighten me some more on the ways of hunters and jumpers? :winkgrin:
I am going to assume (which I know is dangerous) that because there is a lot of hype in the dressage world regarding having an "FEI level" trainer, that maybe it was just a holdover. Possibly the trainer in question has ridden in the FEI levels of show jumping???

[DieBlaueReiterin]

Man, I wanted to help this FEI dressage person who I know who lunged in too short vienna reins and kept her horse BTV the whole time but I figured I might not really know what is going on so I shut my mouth and went on about my way. It must be representative of good dressage though, since she rides with someone who does the GP. Right? ;)

ETA: I guess what irritates me is that dressage riders think they have a corner on the market of good flatwork. Just because it's being done as a means to something else doesn't mean it can't be done correctly. My hunter does tempi changes.

THANK YOU. and someone else said it too: good training is good training, bad training is bad training. I AM SO SICK TO DEATH of dressage riders saying "everyone should learn basic dressage..." GUESS WHAT basic dressage is not basic DRESSAGE it is basic RIDING. just bc you have to do it for 10 years before you can do ACTUAL dressage (2nd-3rd+) does not mean everyone else should too! jumpers/hunters/dressage/xc/whatever, the basics are all the same, following the training scale and then making the final touches to get what you want your final outcome to be, your specialty, whatever. UGH it makes me frustrated to no end when dressage riders preach the holy grail that EVERYONE should know basic dressage. no, EVERYONE should know basic good RIDING.

[Dune]

I as thinking. "what's an FEI Hunter/Jumper trainer?" :confused: Never heard that term, maybe the OP can enlighten me some more on the ways of hunters and jumpers? :winkgrin:

I'm with Chef Jade - what's a FEI hunter/jumper trainer? I couldn't get past that in the post.

My question too. :confused:

[309016]

Not to pick, but....

First off, I hope you mean "inside leg to outside rein", and you just typed that backwards. Or you were referring to some other aid. I can't think of an instance where you would ride a horse from the rein to the leg, at least not if you were attempting to ride "correctly".

Second, most schools of thought in dressage will NEVER tell you to weight either seatbone more than the other - that would make you, and your horse, crooked.

Third, I guarantee you they know what half halts are...but not necessarily by that name. Most anyone who has ever jumped, or had to figure out a distance, knows how to rate and balance a horse.

Nothing good is going to come of stereotyping and picking on people, especially not this way and on their 'home turf' in the H/J forum. If you want to complain about the incompetent, uindereducated amateur jumper riders and their FEI level trainers, you'll have more success elsewhere (like the dressage forum).

Open your mind. Close your mouth.

:) Just a message from your friendly, neighborhood eventer.

Yes I did mean Inside Leg to Outside Rein I am sorry about that and I am willing to take full fault for it. However, please dont tell me to stay with the dressage forum for my rant when you obviously came over here from the Eventing Forum and read my post. I wanted opinion from jumpers not dressage people, because of course I know that most dressage people would agree with me. I like getting opinions from people that actually jump, even if it does start a train wreck.

And I am sorry if you have never been taught to ride independent through your seat bones by being able to shift weight left, right, and center. You obvioulsy have no idea on the matter, so I am not even going to get into it.

And yes this FEI trainer does ride his horses HARD! I have seen him on more than one horse. He beats the crap out of them and has intro level dressage work, at best, on HIS GRAND PRIX HORSE that he cant get to jump 3'9 because he is running it into the fence. And all of his students watch him ride and try to "copy" what he does. They have been with the trainer for months, and they came over to our place.

Also, sweetheart, I was a hunter for 5 years so I would be the last one to pick on the H/J world :). I am just saying, overall, that I wish some trainers, not all, and the person who said GM [well obviously I know what the hell he is doing], would stress Dressage work in their training program.

Have a great day!

[309016]

I mean he is an FEI Card holder, and competes in FEI competitions :)

[magnolia73]

HIS GRAND PRIX HORSE that he cant get to jump 3'9 because he is running it into the fence. And all of his students watch him ride and try to "copy" what he does. They have been with the trainer for months, and they came over to our place.


If he can't jump 3'9, he can't do a Grand Prix nor is he likely competing internationally. In general, at the most basic of HJ shows, people showing over fences higher than say, 2'3 can in general get a decent change.

It sounds like you share a barn with a bad trainer. PERIOD. That's it. You know, there are those in each and every discipline- anyone can hang a shingle. But there are good ones out there. My local hunter trainer has me use my seat like you described. We regularly use lateral work and leg yields to set up organized, tidy lead changes. We use flat work to make my horse into a rateable horse over fences. I use stretching circles to work my horse's back. She picked up all these skills somewhere- oh- from the HJ trainers she learned from.

I've scribed for some dressage tests in the past- a lot of pretty bad riding- and you know- some people are still learning and just not very good yet. Some people have bad trainers. That tense, hollow horse with the rider with bad hands.... err? where's the dressage basics there???? Well, not there yet- riding and training horses is tough- hopefully with good instruction it will come along.

Truth be told, a lot of people do jump in an out of control fashion, a lot of dressage is done via crank and yank and spur and a lot of "trainers" inflate credentials. It's not the goal of the discipline to have poor riding....Most good trainers very much appreciate what basic dressage does for their horses and riders.

[Midge]

So to all of the fighters in here, get over it. This age old battle is getting quite old. :sigh:


Oh, we all agree! But when someone comes and posts something like this...



Does he do tempi changes because you ride them or you/your coach/trainer drilled them into him? :/ you see, there is a difference. But on the other hand you may be just one of those riders that do it right. I don't know because I doubt I have ever seen you ride.

It irritates me that some hunter riders think that they can ride dressage or anything that relates to dressage when they obviously can't.

it feels just a bit inflammatory. And this...

it is a totally different discipline than ours and just accept that it has developed into something that it isn't supposed to be and just allow them to go on their merry way

Can certainly be said about dressage and eventing as well.

This business of eventers/dressage riders coming the the H/J forum to complain about some horrific action of some random H/J trainer, as if we are the only discipline to have bad riders or bad trainers or questionable competitions or poor horsemanship.

I posted this several years ago in yet another 'eventers are great, hunters suck' thread started by Mary In Area 1. I think it bears repeating.



Originally posted by Erin:
Of course it does. Which is why, after the same point had been made in regard to generalizing about h/j riders umpteen times in this thread, I'm rather disappointed to see that the same courtesy wasn't extended to eventers.

Erin, I am struggling with something here. It has never occurred to me to go to the eventing board and post things like, 'Why would you ever do a sport where horses dying on course is a concern?' 'Why would you do a sport where you can fall off and still win?' And after watching at Pinehurst a couple weeks ago, 'Why are you so adamantly against the crest release and counting strides when some of your horses so obviously needed and desperately wished you had these skills?'

I don't do it because just about every horse person I know in every discipline has the important things in common. We love our horses. We love our sport. We love competing. The best moments are not in the show ring. The best moments occur when our individual horses do 'that cute thing'. We are all filled with hope when a new horse comes to the barn. We are all filled with sorrow (or occasionally, 'Good Riddance!' ) when one goes on to a new home. We have all been angry, hurt and frustrated by our horse's inabilities (AND OUR OWN!) and awed, humbled and blessed by their abilities.

It's what bonds us together as horse people. I watched dressage tests for the Pam Ams this morning and saw one rider miss a lead change. Oh, how my heart went out to him! I bet he hates that elusive Lead Change Fairy just as much as I do!

Almost every rider in every discipline is trying to forge a bond that makes the sum greater than the parts, whether one is a backyard eventer, a DQ, a hunter princess or a cowgirl on a peanut roller. We all pick up the reins with hope and expectation, no matter how crappy or disappointed we were with our last experience in the tack.

[Eventer13]

Sounds just like a bad trainer to me. But I think it would be pretty hard for any jumper to get to GP with only "intro level" dressage skills. I'd say most GP horses could do a decent 4th level test- maybe not with the submission and relaxation seen in the dressage horses, but they can do the movements while coming through their back, with correct bend, etc. and they most certainly know how to shorten and lengthen while remaining engaged.

Its not that hard to "get around" a 3'6"-3'9" jumper course on a talented horse. For that matter, its not hard to get around a training level event, or to yank and kick your way through a 1st/2nd level dressage test. Doesn't mean that the ride you will produce is anywhere near the ideal.

[englishivy]

I don't do it because just about every horse person I know in every discipline has the important things in common. We love our horses. We love our sport. We love competing. The best moments are not in the show ring. The best moments occur when our individual horses do 'that cute thing'. We are all filled with hope when a new horse comes to the barn. We are all filled with sorrow (or occasionally, 'Good Riddance!' ) when one goes on to a new home. We have all been angry, hurt and frustrated by our horse's inabilities (AND OUR OWN!) and awed, humbled and blessed by their abilities.
....
Almost every rider in every discipline is trying to forge a bond that makes the sum greater than the parts, whether one is a backyard eventer, a DQ, a hunter princess or a cowgirl on a peanut roller. We all pick up the reins with hope and expectation, no matter how crappy or disappointed we were with our last experience in the tack.

I agree 100%!!

And to throw my opinion out there...

I have a student that prior to joining my program was an Eventer, although she primarily did CT due to lack of xc availability in our area. She rode her entire riding career with CT & dressage trainers (no BNTs, mind you, but people whose clients' showed and they themselves competed regularly with success); she competed through Beginner Novice.

When she joined my program, she was a MESS. No balance, no connections, very uneducated hands, seat, legs, you name it. Bless her heart, she was a disaster...couldn't even do ground poles without the horse being choatic. :no: When reviewing all her old dressage test from her former competions, it should be no surprise the comments were all the same: no connection, inverted, no hind-end engagement, behind the bit, avoiding the bit, etc....seems like all those dressage lessons were really paying off :rolleyes: So we spent months just doing w/t work and reviewing fundamental riding basics (note that I said riding basics not dressage).

Fast forward to less than one year ridng with me, a h/j trainer *gasp*, and not only does she understand what her test comments mean, but even better, she knows how to fix the problems. :eek: And I by no means would call myself a dressage trainer.

Point being: I believe the basics needed to ride properly in ANY discipline or style of riding are all the same. And it's fair to say that every discipline has talented instructors as well as those that leave MUCH to be desired. Sounds like these girls are getting little of the former, and too much of the latter.

If you think you have better information to pass along, do so by being a good role model of horsemanship and riding. Certainly give advice when it is sought, and provide opportunities to educate through your example. Perhaps some of it will rub off on them, or at least give them enough insight to seek a new trainer.

[findeight]

If anybody here thinks that just because somebody calls themselves a trainer or has somehow gotten around a GP course at some level they are automatically given a bye in the trainer qualification department and assumed experts????

Or that anybody on a Hunter for years and under training means they actually know what they are doing????

NOT.

Sucky riders at any level. Even those that call themselves trainers.

And I still am waiting for the explanation of the FEI Hunter/Jumper trainer phrase. There is no FEI trainer card and they don't do Hunters. Don't forget a great number of GPs these days are NOT FEI sanctioned anyway. The term GP is just about meaningless anymore and no longer means anything over 4'6" at some shows.

As usual on these things, OP saw some bad riding and a sucky trainer and made the assumption all the rest are the same.

The absolute best schooling round I ever saw was some guy unknown to me schooling what I thought was a Hunter in the home ring. One could assume all Hunters were that good-and be wrong. It was a multiple Olympian on a ***horse.

The absolute worst thing I ever saw in the schooling ring was at a mixed Dressage and H/J show at Wellington when they used to run together at WEF. In the Dressage warm up ring top hat, tails and all. Worst display of bad horsemanship and absolutely rotten sportsmanship in my loooong memory.

There are bad riders, bad trainers and anybody can call themselves a trainer. Anybody can ride around a GP course as well if they got the money and guts for it-they don't have to be good...and some really are not.

[TheOrangeOne]

Does he do tempi changes because you ride them or you/your coach/trainer drilled them into him? :/ you see, there is a difference. But on the other hand you may be just one of those riders that do it right. I don't know because I doubt I have ever seen you ride.

It irritates me that some hunter riders think that they can ride dressage or anything that relates to dressage when they obviously can't. Don't get me wrong, some of them definitely can. IMHO I think that a good hunter horse and rider should have solid dressage basics. And dressage/eventers have to remember that it is a totally different discipline than ours and just accept that it has developed into something that it isn't supposed to be and just allow them to go on their merry way.

So to all of the fighters in here, get over it. This age old battle is getting quite old. :sigh:


Um, Excuse Me? :eek: Yes, I definitely had my trainer drill TEMPI CHANGES into my hunter, since it's a useful skill that won't knock you out of the ribbons or anything. </sarcasm> I was riding in the field one day, doing a little work with lightening up his changes, and decided to try some tempis with him just to see if we were communicating well enough that we could do it. They are completely useless for a hunter. I'm honestly shocked that you would question someone's riding ability who you have never met before.

OP, I understand that you used to ride hunters and "saw the light" and decided that dressage was better, cool. Enjoy it if that is what floats your boat, but please quit with coming back onto the H/J forum with rude comments like this, or that we can't groom correctly, etc etc. Also, it's easy to see who the trainer you are referring to is, so I'd suggest that you tone it down with your attacks on his ability.

[Silk]

Ok I guess this is somewhat of a rant that I need to get off of my chest.

We have this new FEI Hunter/Jumper trainer at our barn that most people work with,

Ok I will stop now!

I had an FEI hunter once....but he shot the VP one day and they took his hunting license away;)

BTW, my hunter does a piaffe...not well and not for long, but he has the connection to do it. he goes in a rubber D in the hunter ring but will go in a double bridle as well.

I think iit is so fortunate that you were there to save the day and help these poor uneducated riders.

[faraway46]

Riding is the language between horse and rider. Dressage, jumpers, hunters and eventers are just different roads in learning this language. Obviously, we are not born with this language, but some people have a better knack at learning it. "Stop", "turn" and "go" are asked in the same way, be it dressage, eventing, jumpers or hunters. When you are more proficient with this language you can ask your horse: "please, noble beast, can you turn in a very balanced way to your right?" Others, just starting to gable it, are lucky to spurt: "TURN! Somewhere! Anywhere!!" So I would guess it is not a matter of the discipline you practice but how much "horse" can you speak, regardless of what you compete in...

[`reppy]

I had an FEI hunter once....but he shot the VP one day and they took his hunting license away;)


:lol::lol::lol::lol:!!!! Thank you, I just spit my coffee all over the keyboard!

Some of the worst training I've ever seen was from a "dressage trainer". But as many others have said, bad training is bad training. My mom shows dressage (2nd and 3rd level), trains with a BN dressage trainer and whenever we go down for lessons, all of his horses are beautifully relaxed, go really well and most importantly are happy! They do well because all of his horses and students are trained properly.

I've been to rated dressage shows where I would cringe watching some of the riders in the schooling ring. I've been to low level events where I can't even watch the warm-up ring for stadium or xc because it scares me too much. I've also been to local hunter shows where watching the schooling breaks is sometimes just as scary as the events. But, bad training is bad training and its in every discipline.

Oh AND, just because someone says they're an "FEI level rider" doesn't actually mean they are. People lie about their credentials all the time!

[Jealoushe]

Erin, I am struggling with something here. It has never occurred to me to go to the eventing board and post things like, 'Why would you ever do a sport where horses dying on course is a concern?' 'Why would you do a sport where you can fall off and still win?' And after watching at Pinehurst a couple weeks ago, 'Why are you so adamantly against the crest release and counting strides when some of your horses so obviously needed and desperately wished you had these skills?'


Just wanted to clarify, you can't fall off and win. You are eliminated if you fall off in any phase.

[Coreene]

You can check on the FEI's website if someone is registered to ride in FEI classes.

[mvp]

My own rant-- skip if you want.

Don't imply that hunters don't do/need dressage.

Don't be a pro and give my horse a less correct flat school than I (the mere but educated ammy) would.

Don't ever describe a flat session in the ring as a "hack" meaning you do nothing but exercise the horse, pulling himself along, not bending, not ahead of your leg.

If I pay you to train my horse, don't put a student on my "been there, done that" horse because you don't think he really needs a correct ride, but "just needs to go or w/t/c/." If he does need that, take him on a trail ride.

Yup, trainwreck a-comin'. Too bad the original post had been edited. Perhaps I could have enjoyed someone else's rant rather than adding my own. Just feeling a little undervalued and ripped off at the moment. Thanks for listening!