WAS Devon: Three-ring bits on ponies -- now, no shoes up front?

[pwynnnorman]

Is anyone else noticing even more drawreins and three-ring bits being used in the warm up ring--on ponies? If so, why the three ring (the drawreins I understand and feel have been around a long time). I'm anticipating that the three-ring is being used to lower the head, but it's odd because I've always used it--and known it to be used--to raise not lower because of the gag action.

So what's up with that?

Next! Hey, I also hear there seem to be a lot more ponies shod behind but not up front. I'm told that's to get the lead change easier. 'Zat true?

[blueskye]

A little tongue in cheek here... but could it be all those schmanzy Europonies brought their schmanzy eurotack over the pond with them? If those ponies pull as badly as some of their larger cousins, I'd probably like the three ring advantage for schooling purposes too. On a more serious note while I admit that I haven't been to a hunter show in a few years now, but my guess is that with the influence of the more upright going european ponies in the ring, everyone is now aiming for a more "collected" look, hence soem people will be schooling that frame with the draw reins, others with a lifter bit, and others with lots and lots of intelligent flatwork.

Or do you mean that you saw the combination of a three ring bit AND draw reins on the same ponies? I can't quite get my head around what that would achieve other than a confused and cheesed off pony.

[Lexus]

My daughters pony as a 5 year old would go in a very inverted frame. We had her in a basic D. When they jumped the pony would get strong and take over. We switched her to a happy mouth 2 ring and her entire way of going has changed. She moves much more forward instead of up and down and her top line has changed, muscling along the top instead of underneath her neck. All this with just a very soft contact and good consistent training with a pro. It took about 9 months to start seeing the difference. I love the bit on this pony but it didn't work as well on two others I tried it on - just depends on your horse or pony.

[HuntrJumpr]

Lexus - does your dd's pony show hunters? If so, what type of bit will she be showing in? I am just curious what these ponies wear going into the ring - I have always heard to school in a lighter, but similar style bit, to what you'll be putting on as your "fancy clothes" in the ring.

[Lexus]

Yes, she does show hunters. She's currently doing the regular and green medium ponies and pony medal. We either use a slow twist or a pelham in the ring and only in the ring. The pelham helped my daughter learn to get her lead change. The pony tended to land a little quick and at first my daughter needed soemthing extra to get her back for the change but they've moved past that now.

[mvp]

Good luck with all the hardware. Hope the kids ride, no *train* well enough to make the complicated equipment a good, short-term fix rather than the source of a bigger problem.

Perhaps the advent of jumper ponies had fueled the change? I'm not sure you could buy a 4" or 4.5" three ring bit back in pre-pony jumpers era.

[vxf111]

Devon warmup always strikes me as gaget central in ALL the junior/pony divisions. I suspect the prep for Devon is a but out of the ordinary from other shows where there's more room/grass/lunging/warmup classes etc. Every year, that first day during set up, I gaze out and feel like I am looking at a sea of draw reins and side reins.

[pwynnnorman]

I get the drawreins, though (and, no, it wasn't three-ring AND drawrein simultaneously). It's tough for little kids who just aren't real rider-riders (most of them) to put a less-than-natural pony into the right shape. Most kids need crutches and I see nothing wrong with that. Drawreins on ponies who are schooled in them soften the jaw and lower the topline, almost like some humans would stretch or do other gymnastics to get their bodies in shape for what's to come. Once soft and supple, it's easier for the kid in the ring to keep that shape.

But three-ring bits add leverage on the mouth and pressure at the poll simultaneously. They are popular among jumpers and eventers because that action usually RAISES the head while also achieving flexion. I suppose if the reins are applied and then released, the action on the mouth is minimized, so you just get the downward push of the poll action without the leverage action...but that's a much tricker application than drawreins.

Granted, drawreins can cause a "framed" pony or one that ducks behind the bit. Hmmmm...I'm talking myself through this now! OK, on the first ring, I suppose in SOME ponies, the slighter poll pressure might lower the head without flexing the jaw excessively. Hmmmm....

[ExJumper]

I was following until it was suggested that the 3-rings and the draw reins were being used for the same purpose. We all know why draw reins are used, but it was my understanding that the 3-ring is used to lift, not lower, the head. You can create a false frame with a 3-ring, but it's a up-and-in frame, not a lowered frame.

I use a 3-ring a few days a week on my massive lazy ISH. He has a naughty habit of rooting a bit when he starts to get tired, and the 3-ring lets my puny self pull him up out of it when he gets too low in front.

[Tha Ridge]

I think vxf hit the nail on the head. Like indoors, Devon doesn't lend itself to a "normal" warmup in a lot of ways.

Considering that, and the high stakes of showing there, a lot of trainers aren't going to take too many chances and would rather have too much in the warmup than too little. I know I would.

[lauriep]

I don't think it is the locale. I saw the same thing at WEF. IMO, it is the usually true reason: get 'em in the ring quick. I know of VERY few pony riders who understand, and are steady enough and have educated enough hands, to be using these tools on ponies. Can we say shortcut?

[pwynnnorman]

Couldn't be anything but a short cut, I'd think. But that's not what I'm hoping to figure out. Say, did anyone happen to see what ring the reins vs cheekpieces were usually attached to?

Exjumper, we're on the same page. For some reason, the right word didn't come to mind when I was posting before. I would have been clearer had I argued that three-ring bits are usually considered "elevator" bits. OK? That's why I'm curious/confused/intrigued by their use on so many ponies. I could see a few pullers/luggers needing to get set back and up by them, but a lot of ponies? That's what I don't get, unless I'm missing something!

[ponymom64]

We have used drawreins on our ponies to help them understand moving from the back to the front and to help them develop a topline. We have used three bits on ponies that are heavy or lean on the bit to help lighten them. We would never use both at the same time because they are used for schooling different things.

Honestly, I see these tools frequently when watching the schooling ring at almost any show, not just Devon.....

[mroades]

At the USHJA Trainers Symposium, Patricia Griffith said that almost all of her ponies go in 2 or 3 rings at home....I am just sayin.....

[DancingQueen]

Well, although I'm not personally a big fan of the three ring I do realize that it has it's place on occation.

In my experience the three ring is good for breaks and not much else. It will give you some leverage and some pressure on the poll that could perhaps on a hardy little guy result in a lower head carriage.

In my experience with the bit I have come to believe that this bit is good for a short quick fix (yeah, sometimes we need just that). It is similar to a pelham with a loose chain, it gives some leverage but as the pelham is fixed it applies pressure to the lower jaw and then lifts (when the chain is loose).
The three ring will since it moves loosely mostly apply pressure up (and IMO requires more feel from the rider) towards the corners of the mouth.

I don't like this bit beacause in most horses it will encourage a slightly higher head carriege and a bit of an unlock of the jaw where you will end up with your horse behind the hand. The movement of the bit will often in my experience make the horse jump a little flat if he is at all sensitive to the hand.

If you have a horse that is strong the bit could be useful as a schooling tool to enforce breaks.

I don't think that the three ring is conducive to low head carriage at all, rather the opposite. You will have to have a very controlled and soft hand in conjunction with a strong leg to encourage a horse to drop his head in this bit. The idea perhaps if applied correctly would be similar to that of a chambon, but only with a well educated hand to back it up. I don't think tis is the best bit jump a horse in, I would choose a gag for similar effect but less severity.
The concept (and perhaps even the physics) is the same but the sharpness of metal to metal in the three ring makes it numb and unresponsive most of the time.

Again, on a strong lockjawed horse this bit may have a purpose but it is IMO best left to educated hands or up on the wall in the tackroom.

If a smaller rider has a break issue I get the ease of the one rein but I think a gag would be better if needed for flat work and I would rather see them in a pelham if they are jumping.

[DancingQueen]

BTW
I have myself ridden and showed horses in a three ring and I have found the modification of attaching a spur or flashstrap to the top rings emulating the chain of the pelham to be a great one!
It still differs from a pelham in that the mouth piece is allowed a bit of movement but you achive more stability in the three ring with a leather "chain" and you will also displace a bit of the pressure and allow for a better contact with the hand.

A few strong horses of mine has jumped pretty well in this bit this way when breaks was needed but one rein was preferred.
In the case of a jumper needing this on course I would suggest trying a double bridle or hackamore combination bit. The two reins will imo always work a little better with two bits.

[Kenike]

I'm not sure I like the idea of elevator bits on ponies. Sorry, but I guess the world of ponies and a great training barn (vs. show barn) has really changed me. I'll just leave it at that.
Draw reins, well...okay. But not in uneducated hands (not just ponies/kids...ANY uneducated hands!). I think everyone agrees there, though.

That said, shows like Devon (and WEF, etc) do tend to bring out some interesting things....

[pwynnnorman]

Good analysis, DQ, but lemme confirm I understand what you mean by "break". Do you mean break at the poll, as in flexion?

Kenike, I have to admit that I don't even like drawreins on ponies when it comes to safety--OR tight standing martingales. Two ugly stories...no, three.

I witnessed the horrible sommersault of a small pony once. They were doing their warm up circle when the pony stumbled. The tight martingale prevented the pony from sticking its nose out to help balance itself, so instead it just when arse over teakettle. The kid wasn't hurt, but it was awful to see.
Another time, I saw a large pony schooling a course in between classes (local show) peck on landing, scramble with its legs to keep its balance, but instead get a front leg wrapped up in the drawreins. It freaked, scrambled around half on the ground, half on its rider, before getting to its feet and racing around the ring, terrorizing everyone else. The rider broke her arm.
Lastly, I heard about (didn't actually witness it) an event rider break her nose when her horse, too, stumbled on course (and there wasn't even a jump around). It had on a three-ring bit without running martingale (there was a lot of criticism of that, after the fact). When the horse stumbled, the rider held on with the reins, causing the horse to throw its head violently into the air, apparently--whacking the rider in the face real bad.Anyway, I'm not against gagets, but I do wonder sometimes if the risks are weighed with the benefits, especially when little kids are on board. My own pony has been warmed up in drawreins--and, in fact, way back when, I had a showjumper whose rider did the same with him (and then showed him in a gag). Neither were my decision, but if I must admit that if I were the liable pro, I'm not sure I'd go there.

[ynl063w]

I don't think tis is the best bit jump a horse in, I would choose a gag for similar effect but less severity.

I'm curious about this, because I've always heard that a gag is one of the most severe bits there is. Can someone chime in on this? Also, it seems that some are implying that all ponies go with their heads up and need something to bring them down, therefore a three ring shouldn't be appropriate or necessary for any pony, but drawreins would certainly make sense. Why is it not possible that the ponies you see wearing drawreins are different than those you see in a three ring?

[pwynnnorman]

I don't think anyone is saying it's not possible (er, if I'm reading your double negative right--no criticism there, either, BTW: I tend to use the double negative, too!). One thing I'd inject, which isn't directly relevant to that particular comment, is that you can't "release" drawreins like you can a three-ring. Even if you move your hands forward, the weight of the reins continues to have an effect.

As to the severity of the gag vs. three ring, that all depends on the size and placement of the rings on each type. The bigger the gag ring, the more severe the leverage effect. For example, to move a big rock, would you choose a shorter stick or a longer stick?

With the three-ring, you have choices as to where to attach the rein(s). If you attach them to the fat ring that the mouthpiece is also attached to, you basically have a snaffle bit (depending on whether you have a three-ring design with a ring ABOVE the ring the mouthpiece is attached to or whether that ring is also what the cheekpieces are attached to--if you have the ring above for the cheekpieces to attach, then you still have mild leverage, like a Dr. Bristol, because the top ring rotates forward slightly when you pull on the mouthpiece ring).

If you attach your reins to the lowest ring of the three-piece, you basically are producing a curb effect (sans chin chain), which has considerable leverage to it.

The HUGE-ring gag, BTW, is almost unheard of these days, but it was quite popular in the 70s when Princess Ann used in on her horse (I think the horse's name was Goodwill) and, I think, won the Europeans on him (and competed at Bromont in the Montreal Olympics).

Just happens that I've had a thing for gags because I grew up with a particular picture of Princess Ann resonating in my memory. It was a strikingly composed close up of her and Goodwill, face on, her head over his head, over a jump (at Bromont).

[Bobthehorse]

I'm curious about this, because I've always heard that a gag is one of the most severe bits there is. Can someone chime in on this?

A 3 ring on the bottom ring is more severe than a gag. Its all about the length between the two fixed points. Ive been toying with a 2 ring and a regular sized loose ring gag (not the big ring polo gags), and I find the gag rides like less bit than the elevator (though both are technically gag bits, just different types).

[Bobthehorse]

I don't think it is the locale. I saw the same thing at WEF. IMO, it is the usually true reason: get 'em in the ring quick. I know of VERY few pony riders who understand, and are steady enough and have educated enough hands, to be using these tools on ponies. Can we say shortcut?

Agree. Tools can be useful on occasion, but I see so many people using them a crutch on a regular basis. How come people dont want to learn to ride anymore?

A 3 ring is a pretty intense bit, and you need some seriously soft hands to ride in them properly. Leverage bits, if used improperly, can really wreck a horse.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Good analysis, DQ, but lemme confirm I understand what you mean by "break". Do you mean break at the poll, as in flexion?


I think she meant "Brakes" not "Breaks"

[Words of Wisdom]

A three-ring with the rein on the lowest ring is going to be sharper than a gag, because unlike the sliding pressure of the gag, where, as you increase the amount of contact the pressure on the horse's poll slowly increases, when you pull on the reins attached to the bottom of a three-ring, there is a very sudden increase in the amount of poll pressure.

I've used two- and three-rings on ponies when I've needed more bit, but have not wanted to move up to something sharper. I'd personally rather save the sharper hardware for the showring. If I need a corkscrew at home, I'm likely going to want a double-twisted wire at the shows, but if I can get away with still using something with a smooth mouthpiece, like a two-ring, at home, then the corkscrew may be enough for the ring.

[pwynnnorman]

I think she meant "Brakes" not "Breaks"

Oh, cripes all mighty! Can you believe that didn't cross my mind for even one second! Geesh. Sorry, DQ. :o

Hey, WofW, a question for you: What happened to the pelham (with or without converter strap)? Do you warm up in the 3R and then switch to a pelham, or to a snaffle--maybe with a twist? What did happen to using the pelham on stronger ponies? With a loose chin chain, it has a similar effect to the 3R--and it used to be quite common. Do you think it fell out of favor with judges, maybe?

[Bobthehorse]

I have the opposite problem! My horse is spunkier at home than at a show, and I can ride a very nice xc course in a Wonder Bit, whereas at home I need to do gallop sets in a 2 ring to retain any control whatsoever.

[Kenike]

Agree. Tools can be useful on occasion, but I see so many people using them a crutch on a regular basis.

Totally agree. And I think everyone is guilty of this at least once.

[imthebest]

sorry, not really related to bits, but another new trend at devon I noticed was full seat breeches being worn by ALL the juniors this year. and Less tads and mroe Butes this year.

[Words of Wisdom]

Hey, WofW, a question for you: What happened to the pelham (with or without converter strap)? Do you warm up in the 3R and then switch to a pelham, or to a snaffle--maybe with a twist? What did happen to using the pelham on stronger ponies? With a loose chin chain, it has a similar effect to the 3R--and it used to be quite common. Do you think it fell out of favor with judges, maybe?

I don't personally care for the look of a pelham on the ponies-- I think many of them have heads that are too fine to be able to carry so much hardware. However, if it's a pony that really is going to go much better with the pressure from the curb chain, then it's certainly an option to explore, but in most cases, I've found that a well-schooled pony doesn't need it.

Unless it's really a problem animal, everything I've ridden has always warmed up in the bit they show in.

For me, the major difference between using a three-ring and a pelham is the lack of curb chain. However loose it might be, there are some horses out there that really just resent the curb pressure, and will go much better in something without it.

[faraway46]

I only pray for one thing: I hope all these kids are good enough riders to be using all these things. I am pro gadget (heck, I show jumpers in a hackmore combined with a snaffle at times), but you have to know how to use them. Any of these two (three ring or draw reins) are a nightmare if you are not soft enough with your contact and good enough with your leg...I wonder if these kids have enough experience in the saddle to notice and be aware of this...

[CenterStage123]

Just thiught I'd chime in...

I school my horse in an elevator bit, don't worry, I have very soft hands and know how to properly use the bit. I decided to use it because when my horse came he had a very strong mouth. I'm not exactly sure how to descruve it but when i would go to stop, he would curl his head under and evade the bit. The three ring has done wonders to help this. I have the cheek piece on the ring above the bit, the main rein on the ring with the bit and an additional rein on te ring directly below the bit. I only use the additional rein when I need it, so I basically use it just as a snaffle. At shows, we go in a d ring corkscrew. Also, I have found that the three ring dies acctually help put them in a frame if backed up with leg.

Hope this helps.:)

[ynl063w]

I have the cheek piece on the ring above the bit, the main rein on the ring with the bit and an additional rein on te ring directly below the bit. I only use the additional rein when I need it, so I basically use it just as a snaffle.

If you have the cheek piece where you say it is, then it's not just like a snaffle, even if the rein is on the biggest ring. I rarely (if ever) see anyone use the lowest ring on an elevator (usually the second ring) for the reins, so that's why I was thinking the elevator isn't as harsh as a gag. But those who mentioned the size of the ring with regards to the gag made a good point too. Most gags I've seen have larger rings than your average elevator.

[DancingQueen]

Yes, I was posting late night, watching tv and english is not my first language so brakes turned into breaks unnoticed.
Thanks for the clarification on my behalf. I'm guessing that particular one doesn't need any further input at the moment.

I was also going to comment further on my preference towards the gag over the three ring. Somebody talked a little about the physics about it and the ring size of the gag so I will not get into that.

There's also something about the floating side peice throug the gag that I prefer the feel of as opposed to the sliding metal in the three ring.
It could be that the physics of how the bit functions are almost the same but there't just something about a natural material that changes things for me.

A while back it was popular back home to use clip on reins instead of the traditional leather and buckle we use but those reins (although very practical) killed the feel ever so slightly for me.
I believe in leather! *laughing*

The three ring was always referred to as "the Pessoa bit" when it first became popular at home since he was the one who made it popular back then. I tink both of the pessoas are great horsemen and the bit obviously filled a purpose for one or mre of their horses at the time.

In the end of the day, if it works it's a good thing, I'm not a hater but to me has a small market when it works better on a specific kind of horse then the options and IMO there's more often then not bits that works better.

It's a simple enough bit to use but it requires quite a lot of feel with most horses.

[pwynnnorman]

I keep writing "Dr. Bristol" when I've meant "Baucher." Sorry--"B's" confuse me.

[kookicat]

'But Mom, they look soooooo cool and all of my friends use them!!' :lol:

Or at least, that tends to be the case over here.

[pwynnnorman]

Next! Hey, I also hear there seem to be a lot more ponies shod behind but not up front. I'm told that's to get the lead change easier. 'Zat true?

[Bobthehorse]

For me, the major difference between using a three-ring and a pelham is the lack of curb chain. However loose it might be, there are some horses out there that really just resent the curb pressure, and will go much better in something without it.

But the bits do opposite things. The 3 ring elevates, it is a gag bit. The pelham lowers, it is a curb bit.

[findeight]

Next! Hey, I also hear there seem to be a lot more ponies shod behind but not up front. I'm told that's to get the lead change easier. 'Zat true?

:confused: That's a new one. No shoes is felt to make a slight difference in movement for the hack-as in making a 9+ mover into a 10 (does nothing to make the not so good mover anywhere near hack quality). Many Ponies go naked behind to avoid kicking the stuffing out of pasture buddies (yes, show Ponies go out) or because they just don't need them but do in front.
But no shoes in front to help a lead change...interesting. If the kid that does this wins, we should then see all of them that way so they can get their lead changes too?

Never seen it on some very top Ponies I see frequently. Fail to see the logic.

[superpony123]

as for the shoes--seriously? is that kind of like that old trend where the big hunters would take shoes off for the hack and put them back on right after? wtf? maybe it should be obvious, but i don't see why taking the shoes off in front helps a pony get its changes.

if your pony is good enough to go to devon, it should NOT need HELP getting changes.

if a rider is good enough for devon, they should be able to RIDE their pony WELL and have that be the reason the pony can do changes, if it doesn't automatically.THEY SHOULD NOT NEED THE HELP OF SHOES/NO SHOES. (because while i'm pretty sure 90% of the ponies at devon have auto changes, i'm sure theres a few hard rides in there that when rode properly look just like the push buttons)

[findeight]

if your pony is good enough to go to devon, it should NOT need HELP getting changes.

In a perfect world, that would be true but...some of the kids need help and maybe the kid just bought the already qualified Pony and cannot find those famous push buttons yet.

But I really can't see no front shoes being much of a help with that one.

[pwynnnorman]

Yeah, I can understand doing it for movement. I don't know why my friend felt it was for the lead change--she got that, herself, from the trainer she was talking to.

Now, granted, in a totally different world, I do know that that's what some trainers of five-gaited horses do to get the rack, apparently: they remove the fronts and sent them, quite fast, downhill--I think the recommendation (in the book I was reading) was "barefoot up front, down a hill, and ideally toward the barn. So something funky must go on, other than give you flatter, reachier knee (in hunters) when you remove the fronts but not the backs.

I'm just not sure what.

[Dune]

I don't understand the barefoot in front, shod behind theory in helping the lead change, makes NO sense to me. :no: The bit/gadget issue, well, that's the reason my very fancy large Welsh still has me on her back instead of a kid. :winkgrin: I guess I'm not a good enough "trainer" to get her to let a kid really ride her, that or she's too darn smart to know the difference. :lol:

[ponymom64]

Many ponies have hooves hard enough not to be shod in front but do need the extra support behind that hind shoes offer. Having that support can help them stay sound longer and can make the changes easier if the pony needs that support.

[pwynnnorman]

Many ponies have hooves hard enough not to be shod in front but do need the extra support behind that hind shoes offer. Having that support can help them stay sound longer and can make the changes easier if the pony needs that support.

I'm not following you. Support for what? Bad feet? Long pasterns? Less-than-ideal hocks? Land-and-twist footfall action? Trailers on the heels to improve something about movement?

I'm trying to think why, other than bad footing, a hind foot would need to be supported, especially given how hunter ponies don't exactly push from behind or carry a lot of weight behind like, say, a dressage horse would. Now, my jumper needed shoes behind--and also studs, depending on the footing--to jump well because he liked to have a secure grip on take off (otherwise, he'd just kind of pour himself over, not fire off the ground). But that's exactly the opposite, again, of a PH. But maybe that's what you mean, only for different reasons? Are you saying some ponies come off the ground better with shoes on behind (as well as whatever soundness issues you implied before)?

But, then, why so many (well, at least according to one person's perspective)?

[Montanas_Girl]

Well, my guy isn't a pony (barely, at just over 15 hands), but he wears shoes behind and is barefoot in front. He has some arthritic changes in his hocks and, for whatever reason, goes better in hind shoes. He has great hooves and has never needed shoes up front.

I'm not going to touch the elevator bit debate, but I wanted to add something to the spin-off discussion of that from the first page. Someone commented that an elevator seemed counterintuitive on a hunter because it lifts and flexes the head, creating a "frame" that isn't ideal in the hunter ring. I ride my horse with a more vertical neck and collected frame both at home and in the schooling ring than I would want in the show ring. Then, when I lengthen the reins and ask him to go forward, he is softer and more willing to stretch forward and down into my hand, creating the classical hunter outline. Perhaps that is the idea of some of these riders/trainers as well?

[findeight]

Cannot imagine which trainer told friend that it helped a lead change. Kind of out there.

Was it that trainers Pony that was bare in front? Or was that trainer speculating on why one they were looking at was sporting hardware in back only?

I suppose there may be legit reasons for it but influencing the change? That's a reach.

Besides, if it worked they would all be doing it and I see leading zone and HOTY Ponies past, present and future passing thru the barn I board at all the time, including one that won major big time at WEF and every show since and a few that have hit the leader board at Devon. None shod in back only for a better change. Like I said, if it worked, they'd all be shod in back only.

[SaturdayNightLive]

I'm trying to think why, other than bad footing, a hind foot would need to be supported, especially given how hunter ponies don't exactly push from behind or carry a lot of weight behind like, say, a dressage horse would.

That's not true. Of course a properly ridden hunter is rocked back over their hind end and engaged properly. They may carry a longer frame, but they are still pushing from behind.

[CBoylen]

Next! Hey, I also hear there seem to be a lot more ponies shod behind but not up front. I'm told that's to get the lead change easier. 'Zat true?
You sure your friend didn't just see them all before the hack?
If you got good ribbons over fences and have any chance at all of getting a hack ribbon you pull the front shoes for the hack at Devon.

[ponymom64]

I'm not following you. Support for what? Bad feet? Long pasterns? Less-than-ideal hocks? Land-and-twist footfall action? Trailers on the heels to improve something about movement?

I'm trying to think why, other than bad footing, a hind foot would need to be supported, especially given how hunter ponies don't exactly push from behind or carry a lot of weight behind like, say, a dressage horse would. Now, my jumper needed shoes behind--and also studs, depending on the footing--to jump well because he liked to have a secure grip on take off (otherwise, he'd just kind of pour himself over, not fire off the ground). But that's exactly the opposite, again, of a PH. But maybe that's what you mean, only for different reasons? Are you saying some ponies come off the ground better with shoes on behind (as well as whatever soundness issues you implied before)?

But, then, why so many (well, at least according to one person's perspective)?

We had a pony who would drop off his lead in the rear - we put shoes on him and that fixed the problem, we had another who was older with auto changes and had started having a hard time catching the lead in the back, we gave him back shoes as well and that solved that problem.

I'm sure some of the ponies at Devon are older or have been showing forever - they may be hocky or arthritic and adding the shoes, in addition to other maintenance, gives them the extra foot support to continue doing their job. Similar to changing your shoes if your feet hurt.

Also, some ponies don't have the same quality hoof in the front and back.

Not to mention that 3' is a big fence for a large pony - you wouldn't ask a horse to jump 3'6" without shoes - why would you ask a pony to jump his height limit without shoes? Many of these animals show constantly, if you can help keep them comfortable - wouldn't you?

[TheOrangeOne]

I generally see hind shoes on ponies because they have good feet and don't need them on the front, and doing so would interfere with movement, but they can use the extra traction in the back so they can push off for their changes.

[pwynnnorman]

That's not true. Of course a properly ridden hunter is rocked back over their hind end and engaged properly. They may carry a longer frame, but they are still pushing from behind.

Are we still talking ponies here? I am.

findeight, good to hear the illogic of the lead change thing. I just couldn't figure it out and wondered if it was just my inability to do so!

Good question, CBoylen. I'll ask. That could be the simple answer right there.


Not to mention that 3' is a big fence for a large pony


Hardly... Or maybe "only in America." ;)

[Renn/aissance]

You sure your friend didn't just see them all before the hack?
If you got good ribbons over fences and have any chance at all of getting a hack ribbon you pull the front shoes for the hack at Devon.

Walking around on Friday, before the O/F classes, I saw a good handful of ponies with back shoes and no fronts. I was wondering about it a bit but thought perhaps the ponies were OK up front but needed support for hocks, maybe were wearing a bit of a special shoe behind, or needed the extra traction behind.

[ponymom64]

Hardly... Or maybe "only in America." ;)[/QUOTE]

It *is* a large fence when you are showing every weekend

[PonyPenny]

I have see the ponies shoes pulled in front for the hack. Seems to be to make them move better. I can't see the difference. The great movers in the pony ring are great movers with or without shoes. Hearts Desire is one of the best moving ponies, I have ever seen. The pony would probably win the hack whether shoes were worn or not. The shoes were put back on for the over fences. I have also seen this in the rated hunter classes for the horses.

[chunky munky]

I totally disagree. For years I would put a heavy steel shoe on a horse for three weeks before indoors. Then I would take it off for the hack. If done properly, it works. For the record, I was good buddies with the man that ended up being the farrier for Barbaro. In our early days (we were both in our 20's), these were the experiments we did to find better hunter movement, how to make ankles not hit and so many more i can't tell you. Yes there is a way to get a hack prize when you need it. And yes there is a way to help a lead change situation with shoeing. Bad program? No diamond shoes will help.

[Long Spot]

Hardly... Or maybe "only in America." ;)

It *is* a large fence when you are showing every weekend[/QUOTE]

:lol: Yes, Pwynn, what would little old you know about what a large pony is and isn't capable of? ;)

[3Dogs]

or those of us who showed ponies in the 60's ;)