Awful personality- Would this stop you? [Archive]

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May. 21, 2009, 12:23 AM

3horsemom

May. 21, 2009, 12:28 AM

no. i already own a horse like this and he was the best thing that ever happened for me and my daughter.

Hunter Mom

May. 21, 2009, 12:41 AM

We lease a pony mare, so no! :lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. If you know that he's got so many good things going on for him, the anti-social issues could be overlooked. You don't need a lap dog to ride an eq class.

3eme

May. 21, 2009, 12:42 AM

amastrike

May. 21, 2009, 12:50 AM

3eme

May. 21, 2009, 12:55 AM

Depends on what you want. Personally, yes, it would stop me. My horse isn't a machine or a toy to only be enjoyed from the saddle. I want a horse who is friendly and even cuddly.. at the very least, not nasty. My geldings are both cuddly guys who would like to come home with me. That said, I do ride a mare who is a complete and total bitch (and she's not good under saddle), and I enjoy her.. but I don't think I'd want her for my only horse.

If you just want a horse to show and win on, go for it.

If you are implying that from what I wrote, you are way off. Just because you can't 'cuddle' with your horse doesn't make it a machine or a toy! Some horses are just not into that, and imposing it on them would be, I don't know, a bit self-serving?

It's all about having the kind of relationship with a horse that s/he wants to have with you. My bitchy mare, in her own way, actually likes me. I can tell, because despite it all we have developed a connection. Just not a Care Bears cuddly one.

amastrike

May. 21, 2009, 01:07 AM

If you are implying that from what I wrote, you are way off. Just because you can't 'cuddle' with your horse doesn't make it a machine or a toy! Some horses are just not into that, and imposing it on them would be, I don't know, a bit self-serving?

It's all about having the kind of relationship with a horse that s/he wants to have with you. My bitchy mare, in her own way, actually likes me. I can tell, because despite it all we have developed a connection. Just not a Care Bears cuddly one.
I'm not implying anything. I said what I said. Personally, I want an all-around relationship with my horse. I do almost all of his care, schedule all his vet and farrier appointments, hold him, and so on. I love hanging out with him and cuddling with him. I don't care about doing well in shows (or even really showing at all). That's my choice and how I want to be involved with horses. What you do with your horses is your business.

As I said, I have a bitchy mare, too. I like her, and she at least tolerates me. But if I only had one horse, I would want a cuddly one. I spend too much time out of the saddle (intentionally!) to deal with an unfriendly horse.

(You did get rather upset over a remark which had nothing to do with you... are you sure you're as comfortable with your relationship with your horse as you say?)

PNWjumper

May. 21, 2009, 01:25 AM

My AO jumper mare is one of those "once in a lifetime" horses. Sometimes she's sweet and sometimes she's not. When she's working she's ALL BUSINESS and doesn't want anything to do with anyone. She's one of the only horses who's ever intentionally kicked me and tries to bite me every time I tighten her girth (my chiro, massage person, and non-traditional body work team can all attest to the fact that it's not a soreness issue). I love her even more for her personality. She sounds a little like 3eme's mare (though much less extreme) and I love her even more for it. The funny thing is that I think she's basically me in horse form. I understand every little reaction she has to everything because if I put myself in her shoes it's exactly how I would react! :lol:

My up-and-coming OTTB gelding is another one who's just kind of a general curmudgeon on the ground. He's not mean or pissy acting, he just doesn't "get" the whole "best friends" routine. It's clear that he's just putting up with you whenever you deal with him. He's polite enough to not get in trouble, but doesn't go an inch further. And yet the minute you sit on his back he turns into the most incredible amateur-proof horse with a try on him like the best TBs have. He's never met a jump he didn't want to get to the other side of, and he will practically bend himself in half trying to figure out exactly what you want him to do. I'm not sure I could handle owning him if I never rode him! :lol:

Tornado Run Farm

May. 21, 2009, 01:34 AM

I once owned a gelding like this. He was the nastiest character I had ever run across -- I seriously considered posting signs around my pasture, "Beware of Horse." People use to try to sneak in our back field to go fishing which meant they had to cross "HIS" pasture. He would chase them out or tree them! More than once I had to come to someone's rescue by escorting them out armed with my trusty whip to fend off the horse. When saddling, I had to cross tie him and stay at arm's length from his head so he wouldn't bite and watch his legs so he couldn't cow kick. (He also came from an abusive background.)

But once on his back, he was an absolute dream and would try his hardest to do everything you asked. He was one all you had to do was THINK it, and he read your mind and performed it -- the nicest, most fluid canter I have ever ridden. All my friends were scared to death of him, but I finally talked one into actually riding him. She had the biggest grin, and still says he was the most awesome single ride she had ever had.

So I guess it's just a matter of what you can personally tolerate in exchange for the "joy."

BSFKimbees

May. 21, 2009, 01:53 AM

I have to agree with "amastrike", I personally like to bond with "my horses" but...

Coming from a business point of veiw, I don't expect this 100% from my sale horses. Though, since I am a small facility, I TRY very hard to accomplish at least 90% especially since I am currently in the pony market, and ponies have to be child appropriate.

Simply put, most Ammy or youth riders expect great behavior from whatever they buy, no matter the ribbons... But, most do not have the knowledge to change bad behavior should the horse come with it. This is when a trainer needs to step in and COACH the owner, which some don't. So, the horse goes through owners until one sticks.

The "Grumpy horse" often does have a history, or simply hasn't ever had an actual "bonding" period, with a human. Feed, ride, show... Sometimes (and often) the sad life of a show horse. No bonding time, even as a young prospect...

I have turned similar grumpy horses into lap cats within 6 months, sometimes longer if they actually suffered abuse, so unless they were the "strike out at you and try to kill you" type, I wouldn't pass... Never pass if you can offer love and guidance - unless you lack the skills necessary to deal with the more extreme types. In that case, don't buy!

See, someone obviously gave him some wonderful under saddle training, that STUCK with him. Sadly, his ground work was either never established, or simply never dealt with. This causes the conflict.

Simbalism

May. 21, 2009, 02:15 AM

I guess it would depend on the horse. I actually purchased an app gelding who had been an ill handled stallion till he was about 7 yo. I got him when he was 10 after he had been thru numerous owners. He had never been abused, but had learned to get everyone's number while he was a stud. When I bought him, he had many ugly behaviors on the ground. You only opened his stall door wide enough to get his halter on, holding a crop in one hand. Once out of the stall and in cross ties you had to watch head because he would try to bite, front legs because he would strike, and hind legs because he would try to cow kick. For about the first 6 months offending body parts were often wapped with the crop for bad behavior. Then the bad behavior started diminishing. One thing we could never get past was lunging. He wouldn't go faster than a slow trot. If you tried to get him to go forward with lunge whip he would turn his butt to you and kick out. One day he even grabbed the lunge line in his mouth and turned towards me and pawed like a bull, then reared up. I got my trainer at the time to try and lunge him and she couldn't do any better with him. Her suggestion, don't lunge him...hehe. He was good when under saddle though and he stayed with me until he died at age 24. I trimmed his feet myself, I could do a body clip on him with him ground tied, give him his shots etc with no problem. He always tried to keep his tough guy persona, and didn't liked to be cuddled. He did however seem to like to be patted on his wide forehead. My current horse is a chestnut TB mare and definitely is not a sweet cuddly horse. She likes attention, scritches on her small white star and small pats on her neck right behind her head, but is not into the cuddly stuff. She is great under saddle and is willing to try most anything. So, really personality is not a deal breaker for me.

French Twist

May. 21, 2009, 02:32 AM

My mare really only liked me around when I had a carrot for her. She packed me over courses all over the northeast and at eq finals like a pro, but I do have to admit that sometimes I wish she had been more personable. She's retired now, and actually a lot nicer to be around, but I hardly see her anymore...

Meanwhile, my current pony/horse, I guess he's a hony (I should measure him!) has got the most amazing personality. He's just interested in everything and really personable. For riding, it doesn't matter much, he's as good and straightforward to ride as my mare was, but where I notice the difference is in handling him. It's honestly enjoyable just to groom him, and some days I'll ditch the riding and just groom and graze him. He'll twist his little rubber neck almost 180 degrees around just to say 'hi' to me. If I call him in the field he comes walking over. He's and oversized dog, very affectionate, and I have to admit I LOVE it, and it's added a new dimension of enjoyment to my riding.

That said, I think all you can do really is assess your own needs. If your main focus is simply to be safe and successful in the show ring, then that might take far more precedence than whether the horse is a ham on the crossties. As a chicken amateur (and proud of it!) any time I get on a jumping horse, I just want to feel safe. I leased a horse at WEF who frankly had kind of a strange offish personality on the ground, and I can't really imagine I'd have enjoyed him much beyond what he was- a really good 3' packer- if I were to own him.

I remember hearing stories about an eq horse from my area, who I was personally IN LOVE with. He was such a beautiful eq horse, but apparently nasty, nasty, nasty to be around. But does that really matter when the horse (with a competent rider) can go out and win at Devon, the Hamptons, Finals, etc.? Nope. Unless you're me... and like your horses to acknowledge you and maybe even act as though they like you!

Lastly, I'll say I think some horses are just plain cranky by nature, but I think the vast majority really respond to kindness. I've owned a few horses who arrived with really dull, anti-human personalities. But once I bonded with them over grooming, carrots and good riding experiences, they developed really interactive and positive personalities. So you never know until you give a horse lots of love!

angrychinchillas

May. 21, 2009, 03:06 AM

I'm voting "most likely, but not necessarily, a dealbreaker."

There are simply too many horses who are wonderful under saddle AND on the ground to spend my life looking over my shoulder in fear that I'm going to be kicked or bitten or otherwise injured by my horse. And life is simply too short to deal with that kind of crap, in my opinion.

As I said, this is not an absolute decree; if I thought I could rehabilitate a mean horse and give him some manners/safety for his handlers/whatever, and his under-saddle performance was spectacular, I might just go for it. But if it's ingrained and never going away, most likely my answer would be no. No, no, no. There are millions of horses in the world. There will be another one with fabulous talent and who is wonderful to ride, AND who doesn't want to injure or kill me and others.

My main consideration would actually be for my own liability; are you prepared for a lawsuit when your large, dangerous animal hurts someone? Because with a horse who regularly "goes after" people, tries to nip or bite or kick or whatever, it's not an "if" someone will eventually get hurt. It's a "when".

But secondary to that is more along the lines of what amastrike was talking about - I don't want a horse simply to win ribbons with. Horseback riding (and all its attendant non-horseback activities) is my hobby. I do it because it makes me happy, relaxes me, challenges me, and because I love the relationships I can have with horses. I really doubt I'd enjoy it so much if I had to be always on my guard when not in the saddle with a horse.

Finally, with regard to the relationship aspect of horses . . . I believe that being good company is as important in a horse as it is in a person. I don't hang out with nasty, awful people who backstab me or gossip all the time or try to hurt me, because they're not good company. I don't (usually) consider buying horses who hate being around me on the ground and/or try to injure me because they're not good company either.

szipi

May. 21, 2009, 04:38 AM

3eme

May. 21, 2009, 04:40 AM

I'm not implying anything. I said what I said. Personally, I want an all-around relationship with my horse. I do almost all of his care, schedule all his vet and farrier appointments, hold him, and so on. I love hanging out with him and cuddling with him. I don't care about doing well in shows (or even really showing at all). That's my choice and how I want to be involved with horses. What you do with your horses is your business.

As I said, I have a bitchy mare, too. I like her, and she at least tolerates me. But if I only had one horse, I would want a cuddly one. I spend too much time out of the saddle (intentionally!) to deal with an unfriendly horse.

(You did get rather upset over a remark which had nothing to do with you... are you sure you're as comfortable with your relationship with your horse as you say?)

Not upset, just tired of the old idea that if you aren't all cuddly or whatever with your horse and especially if you want to win in competition then you are using your horse as a 'machine' or 'toy'.

As for your last sentance....um, yeah.... :rolleyes:

I will say that I do appreciate someone wanting an all-around relationship with their horse. Admirable, and totally valid. I just think that there are different ways to achieve this.

3eme

May. 21, 2009, 04:46 AM

I am just wondering - why would you send this horse to be inseminated somewhere else and FORGET to tell the personnell there about the behavioral problem and about how to handle her?

A lot of times there's an underlying issure with this behavior. The problem is that a lot of times even when the cause of the behavior goes away, the horse will still keep acting the same....

Good question. We absolutely did warn them (including showing HOW to handle her), they just didn't believe us! NOW they do! :)

Sure, there could be an underlying issue, but this mare in particular was 14 when I got her. Not a whole chance that she'd change! We just learned how to work with her, and I have never gotten even the slightest injury with her.

Anyway...back to the OP's discussion...

enjoytheride

May. 21, 2009, 06:21 AM

Yes it woudl be a deal breaker for me. My gelding didn't care to be brushed although he did enjoy human company but mostly for treats. My mare LOVES to be brushed, follows you around the pasture, and will stand for hours being braided or fussed over. She has some quirks under saddle that are frustrating and I think if she were a cow on the ground I would stop riding her.

I realized having a snuggly horse I can fuss over is important to me and excellent ground manners with a nice personality will make up for some riding difficulty.

shawneeAcres

May. 21, 2009, 07:52 AM

PERsonally yes. Life is too short to put up with stuff like that. I don't care if a horse is "snuggly" but want one to tolerate me and be good on the ground. I do not think there is ANY excuse for bad ground manners. Some have come here with bad manners and nearly all of them turned around VERY quickly once they learned that wouldn't be tolerated. But if I couldn't turn the behavoir around they'd probably get shipped somewhere else. It can be dangerous for unwary people that may be in the barn and not willing to risk that.

caffeinated

May. 21, 2009, 07:56 AM

For me, it would be a deal breaker. It sounds like it could be worth it to a lot of people, but a HUGE part of horse ownership for me is the cuddling and playing on the ground part. I don't have big aspirations for showing, so personality and being a "pet" are a big part of the equation. I smile more when my horse comes trotting up to me in the field than I do when we nail a jump, anyway :) (or at least equally... heh)

That said, I probably would feel bad for the OP's horse, getting bounced around like that due to his personality, and because I'm a huge sap, might consider it just to give him "his" person, LOL

Mayaty02

May. 21, 2009, 07:58 AM

wouldn't stop me. I have actually probably never owned a "cuddly" horse and if they are great under saddle, I'd put up with the silliness. I would prefer them to be harmless though as opposed to truly dangerous. My old eq horse was the type to nip, lunge and bare his teeth but he was really a doll underneath, never would really hurt anyone. Once he got me and he was more surprised than anyone - and was very guilty about it. You didn't walk into his stall without food if you expected to catch him. He would never kick but he was a biter and could be quite intimidating. However a complete doll out of the barn.

Addison

May. 21, 2009, 07:59 AM

I had a mare like that and for years I was convinced that with good, consistant care she would get better. She was on Regumate, had great turn out, regular rides and training.

She was a different horse when she went to a show and was very brave and competitive in the 3 foot divisions.

I sold her when I decided not to show as much and therefore did not want to put up with her b*tchiness.

I would not want to deal with another one like that. There are too many other nice horses out there.

Equibrit

May. 21, 2009, 08:07 AM

ProzacPuppy

May. 21, 2009, 08:07 AM

Sometimes there is some reason that the horse has a bad attitude. Other times they are just "street rat crazy" and behave like thugs all the time.

My OTTB was difficult under saddle and around the barn. Not so much vicious as avoidant. Except with the trainer who swore up and down that this horse was a killer saying he often tried to bite, kick or go over backwards with her. She advised euthanasia saying she couldnt in good conscience sell such a vicious animal.

Did some research and found out the horse had been bounced around from barn to barn in cheap claimers. He was deathly afraid of crops and trusted no one. Once we left the trainer and moved to a trainer who loved the horses just for being horses not what they could or could not do in the arena he mellowed out. Once tried to climb into new trainer's golf cart looking for treats she always gave him.

Turned out to be the biggest marshmellow in the pack once given good and loving care.

I'd also rule out any medical problems or pain issues.

And my guy can also be a PITA to catch but it mostly is a game to him. Let's you get within a foot or two and then turns and moves just a little further away. It's only fun for a little while. And when on extended stall rest he started lunging out of his stall biting at everyone except daughter and me.

I would buy a talented horse with personality problems as long as I had reasonable reason to believe that he wouldn't act out on his threats to people and that there were no physical reasons for the sour attitude.

And if the horse were a mare I'd just suck it up, buy the talented horse and tiptoe around her when she was in a bad mood.

Treasmare2

May. 21, 2009, 08:13 AM

My orphan is clautophobic and socially stunted which results in some poor manners involving wanting things in his mouth and wanting to get the heck out of Dodge once you are leading him from his stall. He will listen and obey when told to go slowly.....he has to toss his head around and try to grab the halter nose when being haltered. No amount of "working on this" has changed his behaviour very much. He arches his neck and looks very imposing and agressive but in fact is not. He actually loves people but failed to learn respect from his mom who he had for only 7 hours. I have found opening the stall door or paddock gate wide open despite the fact that he looks like he will run out, is more helpful and calming to him...he feels less confined I think. (His mom was dying on the trailer on way to vet collage and he was loose in the box with her intinally.....with her trashing around we think he got tossed around and we had to wean him an hour into the trip). He also has to be bridled by undoing one cheek and dropping the crown on th etop of his head then putting the bit in his mouth and doing up the cheek. Just this past year we have been able to halter him by undoing the throat and leaving the crown done up but not able to do the bridle yet...maybe never.

Once the halter is on and he is out of the stall, on crossties, or whatever, he is a lovely horse. You can groom any part of him, clip, trim, bath, pull mane, anything (needs more convincing for ear trimming). He rides like silk and loves to please you. He has a huge jump and is total politeness to ride.He is a work horse in that he needs a job or needs to have people doing something with him....loves attention. He weaves in his stall, diffiuclt to halter, wants to pull the blankets off other horses on crossties.....is very proud and is big feeling in alot of ways. He is 17hh and that in itself is intimidating to many. Most people would not understand why he is the way he is but the payback in his ridability and his talent and his attitude towards work ....it is worth everything. These behaviors are not going to go away and I worry if he left someone might try to beat these things out of him...so I just keep this horse with PTSD and my heart sings everytime I sit in his saddle. Oh yes he will snuggle and loves people.....he just has many protective behaviours.

Would you tolerate this kind of behaviour from a horse in trade for what he offers in performance?

EventFan

May. 21, 2009, 08:24 AM

I think it depends on what YOU want from this horse. Also, how comfortable are you with this horse consistently misbehaving? I, personally, would not want a horse like that; but that is what I want.

There is a horse at our barn that HATES kids, dogs, most people, and only one person can ride him. But for day to day care he is all business. As long as you DON'T try to snuggle, or be lovey dovey he will be fine. He will stand in the cross-ties for grooming and walk on the lead like a gentleman; just don't try the baby-talk! lol! He also has a history of abuse and neglect....I'm sure that's a big part of his problem.

Again, it's all about what your goals/wants are.

foursocks

May. 21, 2009, 08:53 AM

Really interesting question- as others have said, it depends on what you want from the relationship. I've got a grumpy one who I absolutely adore. I think it depends on the horse, though- mine makes me laugh all the time because he has such a huge, interesting personality- and his jump is incredible. The more he learns to relax and trust people, the better he gets- although he's never going to be a cuddlebug. He only snuggles when he doesn't feel well, we have discovered. :lol:

But- he comes when I call, loves having his poll rubbed (except when he doesn't, of course), mugs for treats, and is just a character. To be very honest, though, if he didn't have the talent he does I am not sure I would have wanted to deal with his shirtiness when I first got him- he was sort of scary. Three years later, he is easy to work around 95% of the time, and as long as you keep an eye and your voice on him the other 5% is manageable.

There is another horse in my barn who would never harm a fly and is an excellent little packer, but he always makes the mean face and just doesn't have much of a personality. His early years as a champion WP horse sort of took the joy out of him, I think. I'd rather deal with my quirky boy any day than this one, simply because the WP guy is totally uninterested in people- so I guess that's the difference, for me- the personality they show. Mine is a bit of a sheep in wolf's clothing, and he's been very interesting to figure out- the other guy is just sort of boring.

TaffyTowne

May. 21, 2009, 09:27 AM

It would be a deal breaker for me...I have had both types of horses...

The horse I had before my current horse was not mean, but he literally could have cared less about me. He always acted like he was doing me a huge favor just to allow me to be in his presence. He was great to ride somedays and other days when he didnt feel like working he was a complete PITA. He did have tons of potential but we just never formed a bond that made me want to keep trying with him. I eventually decided to sell him when my mom came to visit me at school and my trainer said to her, you know for how much love your daughter gives to that horse she really deserves one that treats her better.

So I went in search of a new horse. I had planned on getting a made 3'6" hunter and ended up coming home with a VERY green 5 year old WB that had just been imported simply because of his personality. I will never forget standing there with my back to him the day I was trying horses and all of a sudden feeling something nibbling the fringe of my chaps, I turned around to the sweetest eyes in the whole world and was like I have to have him.
Now of course he was not easy to train, I spent 4 years struggling with him before I had a "made" horse but it was worth every second to me because of the bond i have with him when I am off (and on) his back. He knows the sound of my voice when I walk into the barn and immediately perks up, and when I am on him he is like my guardian angel.

I know some people don't care but I learned that I need to have an emotional bond with my horse off the ground. When I get off from having a great ride I want to be able to give my horse lots of kisses and spend lots of time pampering him, and have him enjoy second of it!

VCT

May. 21, 2009, 09:41 AM

OMG NO!

Little story....from yesterday:

So my husband goes to pick up my WB mare at the place where she is getting inseminated. She has been there for over two weeks but when hubby gets there, they tell him that she is not inseminated because she is a crazy bat-sh*t MEAN mare and they have NEVER in there entire professional history seen such a thing. Can't touch her, catch her, NOTHING without risking life and limb.

'Tis true. She's a royal pain in the butt. I have to put a helmet on just to pick her hooves. You don't just go un-announced in Miss Thing's stall UNLESS you ask her permission and have a lump of sugar (otherwise, will aim to kick you in the head..). It once took me, two grooms, and 48 hours to catch her when she was turned out (AND we had to wear helmets while doing so).

This ^^^ I would NOT deal with. Nor would I sell it on to someone else to get injured by. Nor would I breed an animal with this personality. If it's always trying to kick people in the head at the drop of a hat it's a dangerous animal. Don't much care how talented it is... there are plenty others out there who are talented.

My up-and-coming OTTB gelding is another one who's just kind of a general curmudgeon on the ground. He's not mean or pissy acting, he just doesn't "get" the whole "best friends" routine. It's clear that he's just putting up with you whenever you deal with him. He's polite enough to not get in trouble, but doesn't go an inch further. And yet the minute you sit on his back he turns into the most incredible amateur-proof horse with a try on him like the best TBs have. He's never met a jump he didn't want to get to the other side of, and he will practically bend himself in half trying to figure out exactly what you want him to do. I'm not sure I could handle owning him if I never rode him! :lol:

^^^ This I am fine with. Even a bit more grumpy is fine. But one who constantly tries to bite or kick people... No. There is a horse in my barn, a boarder, who constantly has his ears back and a grouchy face, he'll ring his tail and dance a little bit when changing his blanket particularly. But he NEVER DOES A THING. I'm okay with that.

I'm voting "most likely, but not necessarily, a dealbreaker."

There are simply too many horses who are wonderful under saddle AND on the ground to spend my life looking over my shoulder in fear that I'm going to be kicked or bitten or otherwise injured by my horse. And life is simply too short to deal with that kind of crap, in my opinion.

As I said, this is not an absolute decree; if I thought I could rehabilitate a mean horse and give him some manners/safety for his handlers/whatever, and his under-saddle performance was spectacular, I might just go for it. But if it's ingrained and never going away, most likely my answer would be no. No, no, no. There are millions of horses in the world. There will be another one with fabulous talent and who is wonderful to ride, AND who doesn't want to injure or kill me and others.

Agreed.

BoysNightOut

May. 21, 2009, 09:42 AM

A lesson horse I used to ride reminded me of this thread.

She could be nasty on the ground....would try to bite, had charged me before when trying to bring her in from outside, pinned her ears. I think after I stopped riding at this barn, I heard she had to wear a muzzle around kids. I believe she was abused when she was young.

But if she wasn't the great packer I've ever ridden, and taught me the ropes of eventing. You can put the smallest, greenest rider on her and she will take care of them. But she is also fun for older people, and taught me how to ride X-Country fences confidentaly. Te will probably be one of my favorite lessons horses I ever rode.

Here's a pic of us at my 1st recognized Event:

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/59/l_8cb2711b1637a6d147efd10aaf4eece8.jpg

So to answer the question, no, it wouldn't entirely make me turn down a horse.

MintHillFarm

May. 21, 2009, 09:46 AM

We have a "shark" at the barn too. He can be impossible, but what a trooper and a saint to ride. We have to watch our backs around him on the ground, but to ride him is to love him!

jumpingmaya

May. 21, 2009, 09:50 AM

My AO jumper mare is one of those "once in a lifetime" horses. Sometimes she's sweet and sometimes she's not. When she's working she's ALL BUSINESS and doesn't want anything to do with anyone. She's one of the only horses who's ever intentionally kicked me and tries to bite me every time I tighten her girth (my chiro, massage person, and non-traditional body work team can all attest to the fact that it's not a soreness issue). I love her even more for her personality. She sounds a little like 3eme's mare (though much less extreme) and I love her even more for it. The funny thing is that I think she's basically me in horse form. I understand every little reaction she has to everything because if I put myself in her shoes it's exactly how I would react! :lol:

I have the exact same mare.. used to be my high ammy horse... the best thing that ever hapened to me...
I had to put her down yesterday afternoon... :cry:
We thought she was collicking... vet came out since banamine wasn't working.. did everything he could, still no help. Loaded her on the trailer and took her to Surgicare... they did everything that they could... abdominal tap revieled that her splean had ruptured... only 10 years old.
She was the horse of my dreams... even though a red head hot mare... would do anything for me... but I always had to ask.. the best teacher by far and picking her up from the track 7 years ago was the best thing I ever did.
Learn as much as you can from horses like this... they are truly "once in a lifetime". Don't try to "break" them... they all come in different packages and so do we. Cherish them for what they teach you and bring you in your life...

starrysky

May. 21, 2009, 10:10 AM

Yes, this would be a dealbreaker for me. I don't necessarily need a "lap horse" to cuddle with, but I want to be able to safely handle my horse. Life is too short, so when I finally get the chance to own a horse, I want to be able to enjoy EVERY aspect of horsemanship.

00Jumper

May. 21, 2009, 10:21 AM

Probably would be a deal breaker for me. I have owned a couple horses that were not cuddly - I think 'aloof' would be the best term for one and 'distrustful' for the other (she had been abused prior to my owning her, and she actually warmed up after a year or so of, you know, little things like not being beaten :mad:) - and they were wonderful horses that I loved riding. My current horse is not overtly cuddly but she is affectionate and sweet, and I really enjoy having that connection with her - she is also an incredible riding horse.

I would not necessarily turn down a horse that is aloof or not a snuggly cuddle muffin, especially if it were a nice ride. Even with those horses you can usually get some sort of bond; it may not be the kind where the horse comes to you to get hugs and pats, but you can usually work something out. But when we're talking about a horse that bites and kicks, well, yes, that would be a deal-breaker for me. I don't care how good they are to ride, I do not want to deal with an animal I can't trust on the ground. A friend of mine owns a horse like this and while the horse is a terrific ride and tons of fun, on the ground he is mean as a snake and twice as quick to bite; I don't care what kind of ride he is, I would not want that to be my only horse and to have to put up with that day in and day out, always skirting far around the range of his teeth and hooves. :no: Just doesn't sound like fun to me.

tullio

May. 21, 2009, 10:39 AM

Not a deal breaker at all. Some of my very favorite horses have been the ears back, "who do you think you are, coming in MY stall??" types. A few of them would kick/bite if they thought you were invading their space or that they could get away with it. Over longer periods of time most of them ended up being more 'cuddly' with me anyway - they are just more specific about how they want to interact. As long as they're not literally trying to kill me and can be disciplined, lack of cuddliness is not an issue.

I think it's pretty rewarding to develop a relationship with those horses, but definitely not something everyone is interested in doing, given the likelihood of getting kicked/bitten/stomped in the meantime. :)

Laura855

May. 21, 2009, 11:02 AM

I have a mare with a difficult personality and I would have to say I would pass on this type in the future. My mare unfortunately is not sound any more to be my show hunter, but totally sound enough for flatwork and crossrails and easy stuff. She is only 12 years old, very fancy and super fun to ride. But, she has always been a PITA to groom and tack up, very dominant in her stall, tries to bite when blanketing, and will drag you around if you don't have a chain on her. Because of this I am unable to place her in a new home and she is now a pasture pet. If she was easier to deal with on the ground, she would have been very useful in a lesson program or for a beginner not ready to jump much, trail riding, etc.

I was able to deal with her fine, but I allways worried about her kicking or biting a groom at a show, or the shoer, etc. You had to pay attention to her body language and not let your guard down which a lot of people aren't willing to do. The funny thing is that she loved to be pet and loved on, just not messed with in other ways. She's a very personable mare, just has really bad ground manners that I have not been able to correct (and boy have I tried!)

The biggest thing for me is now I think about what happens if I can no longer keep this horse or I want to sell it and get something else? What happens if it doesn't stay sound? It's really hard to find a good home for a horse with a bad attitude. So I am making sure my next horse, and any after that are at least easy to be around.

BAC

May. 21, 2009, 11:08 AM

If the horse is that good under saddle I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. I was in a similar situation with a horse I used to lease, and it didn't bother me at all. Plus once he got to know and like someone, his personality improved dramatically for "his" people only LOL.

MintHillFarm

May. 21, 2009, 11:09 AM

Forgot about the one I have had for 16 yrs (amazing, he and I have been together that long)...

He bites, paws at me, confronts me with his ears pinned, and is generally contrary in everyway you can imagine. I showed him, and did very well in the A/A hunters (he was so great to ride and lovely). I then retired him with me as I frankly felt he would be very hard to place anywhere as he so grumpy, and I feel like I owed him to insure his future safely, so here he is many years later, still ruling the roost and loving it.

I think he would have either ended up at an auction or otherwise ridden till he dropped in a lesson program frankly...

Hauwse

May. 21, 2009, 11:38 AM

Since you are considering this horse, and clearly appreciate his better attributes, and what they may bring, I say yes.

The thing I think we all need to remember is that any horse, on any given day, could be the one that tries to kick you in the head, even the one you have been hugging on for the past 5 years.

My uncle George was a race trainer, and prior to becoming a trainer he was a groom, and was lucky enough to be the sole groom for Native Dancer. The reason he was the sole groom was because ND was as nasty as they come, and everybody else was afraid of him. However he managed because he never failed to respect the fact that any horse is capable of turning you to dust, and that part of being their custodians is respecting the horses wishes as well, especially when we start asking a lot from them.

In my experience I would have to say that the majority of "great" horses I have had the pleasure of knowing have been anti-social, and of those quite a few had really nasty personalities, anything from nipping to running you out of the barn if you turn on the clippers anywhere near them.

I have a stud now that is the sweetest thing in the world, but do not dare bother him when he is taking a nap or sleeping. He will give you a warning, a loud clap of the teeth, and if you fail to heed his warning he will run you out of his stall. Is he dangerous, absolutely, would I get rid of him because of it, absolutely not.

Foxtrot's

May. 21, 2009, 12:25 PM

I don't know what to make of this thread - if it was my horse I'd be doing everything to try and find out the cause for the bahavious, like asking here :) :) Never had a horse tht did not come round, except long ago a little mare that must have needed chiropractor work except that was before chiropractors were available...

Vandy

May. 21, 2009, 12:27 PM

Funny, we were just having this conversation at my barn yesterday.

OP, the horse you are describing sounds just like my Eq horse - the best horse I've ever had. Just plain nasty to deal with - bit, kicked, pinned his ears all the time. He bit through my lip (my bad, I was trying to kiss him), broke my nose, kicked more than one person, would NOT be crosstied or trimmed - his ears got done once a year before indoors with major tranqs. When I first got him, it took me 3 hours to braid him - I'd be almost finished with a braid and he'd shake, turn around to bite me, or cow-kick me. I also had to take apart the bridle to put it on him for about the first six months I had him, or he'd rear and strike out when it got near his ears. It sounds terrible, but here's the good part: he taught me more about riding than any other horse I could imagine. He qualified me for all the equitation finals, tolerated every rider error in the book, NEVER stopped or spooked, taught me how to do the bigger jumpers, never had a rail in a junior jumper class, I owe so much to this horse. Hands down the BEST horse I've ever sat on, and I wouldn't trade my experiences with him for anything.

Fast forward 20 years, and there is a temperamental mare in my barn who belongs to one of my adult amateur clients. This lady started riding late in life, and loves this mare with all her heart. The mare is tough to deal with. She kicks her (padded) stall walls constantly, ruptured a tendon kicking in the trailer, and yesterday, spooked at something during her Game Ready session and stepped on and ruined a very expensive piece of equipment. HOWEVER, she is a saint for her rider. She willingly packs her around a 4' course, jumps anything from anywhere, dabbles in Dressage, and is intrepid on the trails. So many people ask me and this mare's owner why we tolerate her behavior, but it's a no brainer to us. She's not for everyone, but I can't imagine a better match under saddle for her owner. Owner has had numerous offers to buy her, but wouldn't even consider selling. In fact, she hopes to breed her someday.

Generally the people who don't understand, IMO, are not competitive or goal-oriented. Personally, I think for a lesson horse/beginner's horse/pleasure horse, personality is the biggest part of the package. For a competitive show horse, IMO, it's a non-issue.

shmon

May. 21, 2009, 12:40 PM

Wouldn't stop me! In fact, I leased one like this. He was so mouthy and liked to throw the rack off my tack locker door, chew cross ties, reins, crops, brushes, fingers, etc. He bit me so hard one day when I went to put his lead shank on that I still have a nickel-sized scar and no feeling in that area of my hand. However, he taught me a TON and had a good work ethic under saddle.

Also, after a few months of riding him, we formed a bit of a 'working agreement' - I wouldn't unnecessarily fawn all over him, would give him treats and scritches, and treat him like the dignified master he was, and he would keep his teeth away from my body parts. He was never cuddly, but he certainly stopped pinning his ears at me and I stopped having to fear for my life when fastening his blanket straps! I do like a horse with personality, though - and that horse had a BIG one - so I'd ride another one like him in a second.

Fharoah

May. 21, 2009, 12:42 PM

I had a lovely big eq horse like this. Lovely to ride a jerk on the ground, would try to lounge at people when they walked pass, pinn his ears, had to lead in a flash for a while just so he would not take a chunck out of me. My trainner loved this horse, I sold him to a wonderful home who adores him despite his personality. He is still a jerk, and now I have a horse with a heart of gold.

Come Shine

May. 21, 2009, 12:43 PM

An awful personality would stop me from buying.

Horses are risky enough. I don't think I would want to spend money on a horse that regularly kicks hard enough to injure itself or one that I had to wear a helmet to halter or one that I had to watch my back to not get bitten. Yuck.

If it was my JOB to work with said horse, as a trainer, pro rider or groom, I would - lots of people work in difficult conditions. But, as an owner, nope, I would pass.

Ozone

May. 21, 2009, 01:01 PM

HAS NOT STOPPED ME!

Actually I got the horse of my lifetime - his attitude and all!

Little Story:
Went to look at this gelding... owner pointed to where he was in the field *thought that was odd* so I walked over to him, patted him on the neck in an instant happy horse eating grass became an ear pinned, long nose devil that went right for my leg mouth open, teeth showing! I grabbed him, rode him, loved him 8 years later still have him!

Yes, there has been times when I *thought* I was going to change his nasty ways... many O gel curry combs I have thrown at his face (I always missed tho). One day I walked in the barn to get the devil out to ride, I put him on the cross ties - he proceeds to turn around on them. I think nice this is going to be one of those days and at that moment it was like something (light bulb) maybe went off in my head and I petted him on the head and said "I am done trying to change you, I would never want someone to change me so my dear horse don't change, be you" and from that day forward we have this very special bond that know one knows about (they all think he is the bull) but I know he is a love.

End of Story!! I would do it again.. My horse always rides all business (some play in there too :) ) but he is a diva gelding and I am ok with that.

julie710

May. 21, 2009, 01:09 PM

For your situation, yes. There are plenty of packers with good dispositions out there. He seems dangerous, not worth getting hurt and then not being able to ride at all. Sounds like he needs to go to a forever home for some rehabilitation. He may come around. I have seen horses change but it takes time and consistancy and trust. You want something to ride now and not put a few years in his attitude and risk getting seriouly injured, not worth it. I knew a pony like this. Was an awesome ride but on the ground was mean and ran someone over one time and almost killed them. Then I also knew a horse that was like that from fear, put many people in the hospital, but hey, he is now a Grand Prix jumper, but took a good 2-3 years of professional training and trust building and some hospital bills, not worth it.

I'm currently riding a horse with a terrible personality. Stands on the ties with his ears back, tries to nip those who walk by. Also a PITA to "catch" in his stall and must be left with a halter on, or else he might just try to bite you. Cannot longe with a whip, he will go after you. We suspect prior abuse as an underlying cause to these problems.
The only time he wants anything to do with humans if it it has to do with food, or him getting his face rubbed after being ridden. I have known this horse on and off for years now, at multiple barns, and things have never changed.

BUT when you ride him, he is amazing. He will pack anyones sorry a** around a course and make it look decent. Jump out of any distance, get all his changes, etc. etc. He is a GREAT Eq horse. Jumps flat, easy to equtate on. Needs no longing prior to showing, get on and go. He is a happy camper when he's being ridden, but only when he is being ridden. The remainder of the time he is a bitter horse.

The reason I ask is this particular horse seems to be bounced from barn to barn solely because of his personality. If I had the funds and I was looking for an eq horse to pack me around and help me win, this would be the one. I would definitely be able to look past his personality and learn how to work around it. Plus, who knows- maybe if he got the chance to bond with one person he would become friendlier.

Would a bad attitude be enough to stop you from buying or leasing a horse like this?

veebug22

May. 21, 2009, 01:11 PM

Yes, it would stop me from buying, particularly if resale was a factor. Personality is big to me, and I think an animal that doesn't particularly like me or people and is just hauling my butt around isn't necessarily going to go the extra mile in a tricky situation. I also think it probably isn't going to be so invested in saving my butt in dangerous ones. And I've seen too many ground injuries from nasty horses. In all behavioral cases, I would probably look for physical factors first before jumping to the assumption of prior abuse, some horses will grin and bear physical issues while being ridden and mainly act out their discomfort and displeasure at their jobs or surroundings on the ground. And, some horses are just nasty from the start, even with excellent handling their whole lives.

From leasing... it probably wouldn't stop me, depending on why I'm leasing and how bad the horse was on the ground. If I'm leasing just to learn the ropes in a new division, then it probably wouldn't stop me, but I wouldn't particularly enjoy the experience either. I hate nastiness in horses. I'm not looking for love and snuggles either, but I like honesty, respectfulness, and reliability. Kindness is definitely up there for me, although not required. I think if a horse doesn't respect you or does for the wrong reasons, you aren't going to get nearly the same ride out of it as one that does.

veebug22

May. 21, 2009, 01:18 PM

One more point -- owning a horse that's nasty is a liability and can make things difficult in terms of finding a barn and staff that are willing to care for it. Not to mention that you are responsible if your horse starts biting other boarders and injuring people. Do you really want that on your head? I've worked at a couple places that had nasty school horses that were awesome to ride, but terrible on the ground. Both places eventually rid themselves of the horses after lots of attempts to contain the situation (including muzzles!), and the staff were fine with it. If a horse truly wants to hurt people, he will, whether it's a child, adult, boarder, student, staff. That's on your head when it's your horse.

FancyFree

May. 21, 2009, 01:23 PM

It would stop me. My neighbor's horse is the biggest jerk in the world. He pins his ears back at everyone, including his owner. When I go to open my gate, he tries to bite me. When I lead my horse out of the stall, he tries to bite her. I suspect he was abused at some time. But he is great under saddle. For me though, dealing with my horse outside of riding is important to me. I like to give her scratches, have my kids pet her, she's a big love bug, loves attention. I couldn't own a horse that I couldn't pet, that everyone was afraid of or called nasty names.

BLBGP

May. 21, 2009, 01:24 PM

OMG NO!

Little story....from yesterday:

So my husband goes to pick up my WB mare at the place where she is getting inseminated. She has been there for over two weeks but when hubby gets there, they tell him that she is not inseminated because she is a crazy bat-sh*t MEAN mare and they have NEVER in there entire professional history seen such a thing. Can't touch her, catch her, NOTHING without risking life and limb.

'Tis true. She's a royal pain in the butt. I have to put a helmet on just to pick her hooves. You don't just go un-announced in Miss Thing's stall UNLESS you ask her permission and have a lump of sugar (otherwise, will aim to kick you in the head..). It once took me, two grooms, and 48 hours to catch her when she was turned out (AND we had to wear helmets while doing so).

I knew all this when I bought her. The seller disclosed all of this (even *bravely* did a little demonstration involving a hoof-pick and an unannounced stall visit...impressive). This was before I got on her, and I was hesitant. We know this guy really well...he said, 'trust me', and I did...

Well let me tell you this is the BEST mare EVER to ride. She packs me around 4' like no one's business; sometimes I get the feeling that she even prefers when I make an error (like asking for that extra long spot)....must make her feel superior or something ( :D ). I retired her now, but from the first class to the last with her I was always in the ribbons, usually 1st.

You don't have to live in the stall with the horse. What is important is how it rides IMHO.

I don't understand wanting to breed a dangerous horse. If she aims for your head now, what will she do when she has a foal to protect? How are you going to care for the little one with the mare in the stall? How are you going to sell a foal who potentially has her personality? If she's only a 4' horse, chances are her baby would be aimed for the amateur market...most of which don't have the time/skills/guts/insanity to want to deal with a horse that deliberately aims to kick you in the head.

I understand that many horses aren't pets, but not wanting to be loved on and deliberately trying to kill a person are two very different things. You've figured out a way to deal with her and hopefully she has a home for life with you, but it sure seems like those genetics should stop there.

mvp

May. 21, 2009, 01:31 PM

it would not stop me from leasing.

It would stop me from buying. I write the checks, do the grooming, the riding and the training. That's a lot of time, money and risk to my body to put into a horse looking to nail me or just not be pleasant. I'll spend so much time on the ground with the horse, that I wouldn't be willing to be around a sour puss all that time.

I'd also always wonder if I was not making My Beloved happy. I don't think I want that kind of relationship. And what happens when the showing is over or put on hold during an injury. You had better like your "pet" then because you will still be writing the checks and currying him.

Fortunately, I have been able to make almost all of the horses out there either like me a little more than they might have done at the outset. Sometimes that can be good enough even if they never become your PDA partner.

Edited to add: I also might not buy the sour puss as a resale horse. If I were making GP jumpers, perhaps. I might even expect or like that hard-as-nails personality in a game, all-business competitor. But since I make "lesser horses" for lesser people, I want one potential can like. I think well-liked horses generally have an easier time in live and are better taken-care of in the long run than do the expensive pets who aren't pets at all.

3eme

May. 21, 2009, 01:39 PM

Why would you send this horse to be inseminated ?

Um, because she has already been bred and because her offspring went on to win the young horse (6yr) championships in Belgium, that's why.

3eme

May. 21, 2009, 01:43 PM

I don't understand wanting to breed a dangerous horse. If she aims for your head now, what will she do when she has a foal to protect? How are you going to care for the little one with the mare in the stall? How are you going to sell a foal who potentially has her personality? If she's only a 4' horse, chances are her baby would be aimed for the amateur market...most of which don't have the time/skills/guts/insanity to want to deal with a horse that deliberately aims to kick you in the head.

I understand that many horses aren't pets, but not wanting to be loved on and deliberately trying to kill a person are two very different things. You've figured out a way to deal with her and hopefully she has a home for life with you, but it sure seems like those genetics should stop there.

Yeah, first of all she's not just a 4' horse. She won (a lot) at a way higher level. When we purchased her, we made an agreement with the prior owner to only do smaller stuff, given her age.

She has foaled before. Her offspring are worth a lot of money, and are not like her, bitchy-wise, as far as I am told.

My hubby is an experienced breeder, so no need to worry or make unfounded assumptions...

BABYGREENTB

May. 21, 2009, 01:45 PM

I bought a horse with a similar personality. He was fantastic to ride, but NASTY on the ground. He wore a muzzle for the vet and farrier, and you better believe that if you went in his stall, you better have a halter and get in/out quickly. He did not come from an abusive situation at all (had previously had two very loving owners, in fact). Why did I put up with it? Well, look at him:

http://www.teresaramsay.com/details.php?gid=1102&sgid=&pid=49280

He ended up with a ruptured DDFT and had to be put down (which was awful), but I feel really lucky to have had the chance to own him. He was absolutely amazing to ride and taught me quite a lot. However, I do love a good cuddle with my horses, and my current mare is so sweet and wonderful, it would be hard to go back to one that didn't really want to be buddies.

That said, if the horse packed around, was fancy, and could be managed in the right situation - it probably wouldn't be a deal breaker.

ILuvmyButtercups

May. 21, 2009, 01:46 PM

:cool: This thread got my attention because I have a gelding who perplexes me to no end. He's got a checkered past ~ I have no history of ownership on him, but I suspect he was gelded late in life.

The most curious thing is he's NOT MEAN, BUT, he demonstrates all the pesky and exasperating characteristics of a stallion. Never lays his ears back, in fact he nickers when he sees me, always comes running to greet me, no matter what time of day. He's a pure joy to ride, smoother gaits you'll never feel, perfect in the hand, goes in the lightest snaffle, is so responsive to the leg and hand you need only think the directive, he's your slave.

BUT. He bites - oh, man, is he ever mouthy! Putting a halter or bridle on him is taxing. He grabs all the straps, it's a tug of war to get the tack on finally. He sneaks nips at you for his amusement, never out of meanness, but sometimes those nips can be quite painful. He stands perfectly for everything - shoeing, clipping, mane pulling. Loads into anything at all, loves to be hauled out for shows/rides. I wouldn't say he's lovey dovey.... no, his position on his people is that they are merely play things. When I try to pet and fuss over him, that's his cue to play right back at me - like he would another horse! I would NEVER let this old ham go; one, no one would want him (lame, old, cribs), and two, he and I just plain understand each other. How many horses are there out there that really LIKE their people? My guy LOVES us, the better to horseplay with! :D

danceronice

May. 21, 2009, 01:52 PM

Depends on what exactly you mean by "awful personality."

IF: it means may bite, is crabby about saddling, sometimes doesn't want to come in, may hate having the back feet picked up etc. but is great under saddle and ultimately does what I need without being TOO big a pain, that's fine. If they're doing what I want as a working horse I can put up with a little prima donna stuff on the ground (frankly would rather have them fuss there than have issues under saddle.)

IF: it means will not allow me in the stall, makes a habit of attempting to kick me or the vet or the farrier, will run AT me rather than away from me in the paddock, is a dirty biter who is AIMING to injure rather than a horse trying to make a point as they would to another horse, is dangerous (bolts, rears, attempts to spin and kick, etc) on the lead, kicks or evades when being saddled, can't be trusted in the crossties, then no. Life is too short at that point, no matter how good they are once I'm actually on their back (and if they're trying to kick me or run me down, it would take an AWFUL lot of convincing to get me on their back to find out.)

Aliascml

May. 21, 2009, 01:58 PM

Ir would stop me from buying. I wouldn't necessarily want a cuddly horse. However, I would want a horse that is tolerant, had good ground and under saddle manners. I wouldn't want to be worried that my horse was going to hurt me or someone else on purpose.

imnotclever

May. 21, 2009, 02:05 PM

Didn't stop me. The horse I adopted was full of nasty looks, threats to bite and kick.

Now three months later he is a different horse.

Sure he sometimes nickers to me with his ears pinned. Hehe. (I actually prefer this to nickering with his ears up because it just cracks me up) :rolleyes:

I have assumed that this attitude came from being a lesson horse, but I could be wrong. I should ask the people that had him as a young man.

He sure has blossomed with one on one ownership. I would actually refer to him as a snuggler at times with me, but I definitely warn people about him cause he is still a bit of a bugger in his stall and the crossties.

He is safe and dependable to ride and sure does take care of me out on trails and in the arena. I adore him and all the personality that he has. Everytime he nickers for me or nuzzles me - its that much more meaningful because it wasn't his natural personality (at least not when I first adopted him).

I know not all horses change their attitude, but maybe some of them are like mine and just needed a different scene to let their true personality shine through. My guy has been through a lot and if I were him I'd be a grouch too.

MintHillFarm

May. 21, 2009, 02:11 PM

I really think that some horses, like people, are grumpy or aren't as social as others. Is there a defining reason, maybe, but in people too it's hard as well to understand mood swings, temperment etc.

This horse of mine interacts with his turn out friend, a draft mare (bigger and heavier then the gelding) exactly the same way as he treats me; as if she were beneath him and at his beck and call. I find that very interesting...

I do remember seeing a former trainer of his many years ago. I told her that I had this horse now and really liked him. Her comment was "he will kick you in the head!" so his reputation as an unpleasant individual on the ground, was well known!

Mara

May. 21, 2009, 02:13 PM

danceronice

May. 21, 2009, 02:30 PM

A lot of what some folks are calling a bad attitude/bad personality sounds to me like downright dangerous behavior. I mean, kicking to kill? There's a line there somewhere between just plain being "not charming" or "remote" or "irritable" and being the equivalent of a human on the verge of going postal. That's a liability just waiting to happen.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. If they bite me because they don't like being bothered while eating, okay. They'd do the same to another horse. If they are stubborn about picking up a foot, fine, had that before. I'm TOTALLY fine with them not wanting me hanging off them just to be chummy. If they turn and try and double-barrel me for walking in the stall, NOT OKAY and if the behavior wasn't correctable, not only would I not buy or breed, if I owned the horse I'd seriously consider putting them down. Same goes for being unable to lead them at all safely or trying to run me down if I go in a pasture with them. There's a difference between "not a pocket pony" and "unsafe to handle on the ground."

amastrike

May. 21, 2009, 02:40 PM

Vandy

May. 21, 2009, 03:24 PM

All these stories about nasty horses are kind of depressing. If I were to see a horse so nasty on the ground, my guess would be the horse is unhappy. I can't imagine riding a horse who is so miserable.. I'd feel guilty.The funny thing is, my "nasty" horse and many of the others I've known as well as many described on this thread are HAPPIEST when they are being ridden. I don't have a picture of my horse with me on his back where his ears aren't up and his eye isn't soft...well, except that one where someone is patting him while I'm just sitting on him, in that one he looks like the devil. Believe me, I was never a good enough rider to get a horse around a 4'6" course that didn't want to do it and the horse I described was indisputably happy and enthusiastic in the show ring! I've known plenty of horses who were lovely on the ground and miserable with their under saddle jobs - that's what makes me feel depressed.

Angel Undercover

May. 21, 2009, 03:54 PM

It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Several of my favourite horses have been pretty nasty on the ground. Two were ottbs, and definitely abused. Not sure about the other mare, but it's a possibility and I think it's quite probable.

All three of these horses were happy when being ridden, and quite good at their jobs. I continued to try to bond with them despite their behaviour, and sometimes they would become a little more pleasant. The one mare (chestnut ottb, how I loff them!) got to the point where she would tolerate grooming/tacking/etc by me only, and would try to kick or bite anyone else including the BO (smart mare, she usually deserved it). The other ottb (also chestnut but a gelding, early teens) never really improved. We think he was badly abused for so long that he would just never fully trust humans again. It made me happy to try though, and give him some love and tell him he was special even if he didn't acknowledge it. Even though he seemed to ignore it, I always hoped that a little part of him felt some love. I really loved him, I'm actually getting a little teary thinking about him. :sadsmile:

CTRL ALT DELETE

May. 21, 2009, 04:50 PM

Should've made this thread a poll!

I'd like to clarify- I am not interested in buying this horse. He is just another horse on my hack list! (But, if I had the money and means to own a horse, I'd definitely consider it ;))
As I said, I have known this horse for years, and this is the 2nd barn he has been at that I happen to be riding out of. I know he has been through one, possibly two more prior to our current encounter. The reason he keeps getting moved around is because of his crabby personality...it seems that people can't deal with it for too long.

I asked this to see if personality really was make-it-or-break-it with a horse. For me personally, it is not. If a horse I get along with u/s happens to be crabby on the ground thats fine. If he happens to love the attention, thats even better.

nycjumper

May. 21, 2009, 04:57 PM

Personally - yes and for resale - yes, it's a deal breaker. I've had several that weren't dangerous but were generally aloof or uninterested. And to me, that's not fun. You spent a lot more time with your horse on the ground than in the saddle, why would I want one that is a menace or a pain to handle?

Oh & dangerous behavior like intentionally kicking at the head - repeatedly? That isn't quirky or funny or excusable in my world. That's grounds for a date with pink juice.

Peggy

May. 21, 2009, 05:02 PM

For resale, probably not (as in would not buy, or would be a deal-breaker), but maybe it it was high end enuf that it would be likely to end up in a situation where the owner didn't have to deal with it. It would be a deal-breaker for enough people so as not to be worth it.

For myself, maybe (would buy) if I felt it had a conscience. My horse Cool could be pretty nasty, but much of it was a game and if you stood your ground and yelled at him he generally stopped. Also, he was better in a climate of mutual respect; if he thought a person would let him get away with stuff he would move into attack mode. I think that some of his issues were human caused (but maybe the humans were less than nice to him b/c he deserved it). But I always worried about other people handling him--stall cleaners, grooms, vets, shoers. In the end in is easier to have one that isn't a problem.

otwist123

May. 21, 2009, 05:19 PM

For me, yes it would most likely be a deal breaker.

One of the things I love the most about my gelding is his personality. He is definitely a "lap horse". He loves being fussed with and loves attention. 90% of the time I spend with him is on the ground. I love being able to come cuddle with him in his stall when he's sleeping. If I had one of these nasty horses on the ground but amazing to ride, and just won a big class, and was on top of the world, and got off to get kicked or bitten, that would sorta ruin it for me. I also like going to the barn just to spend time with him, not always ride. I just think there are lot's of horses out there, and it's not like only the good ones to ride are the ones that are nasty on the ground. There are lot's that have both. My boy is awesome to ride, he packs me around, never stops, etc but is also a cuddle bug on the ground. It's not like you have to pick one or the other.

mew

May. 21, 2009, 05:41 PM

For me as my own personally horse yes and I own one. For resale no partially because of the increased difficulty of sale but also of liability if new owner got hurt ect.

What finally occurred to me is that some people are loners, some are lovers. Why should horses be any different? My horse for the most part has no use for other horse or people and when he does chances are he is too rough/nasty for them to want anything to do with him. He is happy watching things and likes to be able to see what's going on but try to involve him at your own risk. He puts up to a point and then he makes it very clear with hoofs or teeth he is done.

I think sometimes we try to make all horses be the happy normal well adjusted kid in kindergarten. . . but thats just not the way it is some times they just are not nor will they ever be that kid.

Thats not to say they should not have manors. Mr. Fussy and I have had several come to the light meetings, he can pin his ears all he likes but if he lifts that hoof at me it is not going to fly. That said when he starts to pin his ears I do try to listen to his objections.

fordtraktor

May. 21, 2009, 05:50 PM

Dealbreaker for me -- I do this for fun. I have had some very quirky ones, though, and love them -- it is nastiness that I don't care for. I don't need cuddly, though.

Who was it that said when horse shopping, buy one that makes you happy to see its head hanging over the stall door every day. To me, that horse doesn't come with pinned ears and bared teeth.

Ponyclubrocks

May. 21, 2009, 07:11 PM

I've had horses that were lap dogs and horses that were somewhat reserved or aloof, and then there is my current mare...when I bought her I could not walk in her stall, I had to use a whip or treats to get her to turn around and face me. She hated being groomed and or tacked up, she would try to bite me and if I tied her head up short so she couldn't bite me she would try to cow kick me. She could not be caught in a pasture without removing every last horse. But under saddle she was all business and a real dream to ride.

When I bought her she was 10 and I have no idea of her history, but I always felt that her behaviors were defensive more than offensive, so I chose to react in a very low key manner (while being very cautious!) whenever I handled her. The first time she tried to bite me, she snapped, then immediately jerked back and threw her head way up in the air, so I was certain somebody had already tried to beat the bite out of her...to no avail. I can recall how genuinely puzzled she would look when I didn't strike back at her. I would just keep grooming her and keep one hand pressed on her neck so she couldn't swing around and catch me off guard. As long as I didn't tie her head short, she didn't try to kick me. I spent hours and hours sitting outside her stall reading, drinking coffee etc. I would hang a hay bag outside her stall so if she wanted to eat she had to tolerate me. The first couple of months I had to sit six feet or so away, because she would take a bite of hay, then try to take a bite of me.:lol:

After about six months she was a completely different horse, sweet, easy to handle and I felt perfectly comfortable working around her. Plus I could call her when she was in the pasture and she would actually leave the herd to come to the gate to be brought in. The only downside I guess is that she hasn't transfered this new attitude to everyone, while she is generally more tolerant of humans, I cant just send anybody into her stall, some people she instantly hates. I plan to keep her for life.

In answer to the original question, I guess it would depend, if I felt like the horse really was offensively trying to kill me on the ground, then no I don't want to deal with that, but if it's defensive or just aloof, I can deal with it if it's a good enough horse in other ways. JMO

shawneeAcres

May. 21, 2009, 07:34 PM

A comment on the "nasty" horses. A lot of people say "Oh the horse has been a when they are nasty or act scared etc. In my experience the nasty horses are often horses that have been allowed to be "alpha" towards their handlers and many times turning the tables on them changes everything. I personally know several horses that have a nasty side (NOT in my barn) and I know they have never been "abused". I also hear the "abused" excuse for horses that are scared of things and people. I own a three year old filly, she was born on my farm, out of my stallion and a mare I used to show (who will never be sold). This filly acts as if you are going to KILL her most of the time when youa re working with her. She has never, ever been "abused" in any way or even hardly reprimanded. We have two fillies, both three year olds both born here and by my stallion, one the bay is an absolute sweetheart BUT she has a real alpha streak and the other is the filly I mentioned above. I am in the process of saddle breaking them both and the bay filly takes it in stride, the other filly is TERRIFIED (but luckily she trusts me so doesn't "lose it") of nearly everything you do with her, If she is worked daily on it, she gets more used to things, but never "over it" however, don't work with her a few days and she is back to terrified! Her dam was also the same way as a young horse and got over it. I am not questioning if the horse in this thread was abused, maybe there is fact behind that, maybe not. But so often people jump to that conclusion and often it really is not the case. actually the horses I have known that were abused were often very tolerant horses that just put up with things, probably because they had to learn to. Just an observation

DominoEffect

May. 21, 2009, 07:51 PM

Heed this warning- maybe this horse was passed around because his little attitude evolved into a bigger problem that came out when people were riding him. Horses that don't know you well will sometimes perform better for you. I'm definitely not saying it is a deal breaker- but be careful, for your own sake, it doesn't evolve into an issue on his back. Perhaps at the moment, it feels like it is solely issues on the ground - but that could certainly change! Hope it works out!

Mimi La Rue

May. 21, 2009, 08:55 PM

The horse I leased last sounds exactly like the horse you are describing. He was a totally asshole on the ground but was a joy to ride. I leased him for a few months and he was a great horse for me to build my confidence on while riding, but on the ground I was always on edge to avoid getting attacked by him. He eventually came up for sale and was priced in a price range I could afford but I didn't have any interest in purchasing him.

Twix04

May. 22, 2009, 01:37 AM

Yeah, first of all she's not just a 4' horse. She won (a lot) at a way higher level. When we purchased her, we made an agreement with the prior owner to only do smaller stuff, given her age.

She has foaled before. Her offspring are worth a lot of money, and are not like her, bitchy-wise, as far as I am told.

My hubby is an experienced breeder, so no need to worry or make unfounded assumptions...

I wouldn't breed on a nasty personality, either. JMHO

Long Spot

May. 22, 2009, 01:52 AM

Me three. I don't mind grouchy. I don't mind aloof. But I would mind having to wear a helmet for normal every day non riding activities. That's not something that I'd want to even take a chance of passing on, or own. No matter how sweet the ride.

Twix04

May. 22, 2009, 01:55 AM

Personally, I would never buy a horse with a nasty personality unless I thought they could be trained out of it and learn to respect me. I pay all the bills and care for them, so it's the least they can do to behave on the ground. After all, I only require that they work an hour a day, so I don't think I'm asking too much :lol: The "bond" is really important to me. Sure, I've dealt with horses that aren't so snuggly, but nothing pleases me more than to hear that soft nicker when I come up to their stall. It's beautiful.

I have better things to do with my life and time than spend it with a nasty horse who I have to watch my back around. That just seems plain silly to me. But I respect those of you that put your time and effort into these types of horses as they might not be so tolerated elsewhere...

I've met too many nice horses that were also fab to ride to waste my time on nasty, foul, head-kicking, teeth barring A**holes. Thanks, but no thanks. Life is too short.

goeslikestink

May. 22, 2009, 05:23 AM

I'm currently riding a horse with a terrible personality. Stands on the ties with his ears back, tries to nip those who walk by. Also a PITA to "catch" in his stall and must be left with a halter on, or else he might just try to bite you. Cannot longe with a whip, he will go after you. We suspect prior abuse as an underlying cause to these problems.

so dont have him tied in stable why bloooming restrict the horse and make him 10 times worse -

put a bar up - like as in a wooden bar nose hieght
this gives the illusion of a bigger door

put his food water and hay be it in a haynet or on the floor at the front of his stable
when you removed the bar the horse will automatically walk or take a stp backwards when he does that say back - so you can enter his space

if he doesnt go back when removing the bar which should be slotted in each end
then grab your mate the broom
turn broom up side down and tap floor when enter and say back to horse
if he still doesnt then stretch your arm out with said broom and then tap the floor and ask agian

this cretes the illussion your bigger and are alpha
at no time have you hit the horse all you done is create an illusion in his mind you are alpha and much much bigger than him

with the bar up nose hieght stops him from lunging over the door to grab and bite passer- byers - simple thing but so effective in a horses mind

from there you can have a lunge line folded in one hand loop it through a hitching point ie grooming area and then groom the horse if he moves backwards or whatever you have the lenght of line to allow him to which he will do, once hes taken a few step backwards collect him up and replace at the start of the hitch rail-- and pat and praze and say stand
move with the horse and continue to groom him

grooming is bonding and so is pick out his feet and you can do the same thing when ppicking his feeet up starting with lf lh rh rf
so he starts on an easy foot ie good and ends ona good foot ie good note

no need to for him to be tied and restricted

also take a look at his stable and see what he sees, some horses dont like to be in a bissy aprt of the yard some dont like the wind that whips round a yard some dont like the direct sunlight some dont like ther nieghbours

all simple things you can do to help im adjust to his new life

The only time he wants anything to do with humans if it it has to do with food, or him getting his face rubbed after being ridden. I have known this horse on and off for years now, at multiple barns, and things have never changed.

dont treat this type of horse -- ever hes needs confident handling and good rountine his problem is no one is understanding his needs

BUT when you ride him, he is amazing. He will pack anyones sorry a** around a course and make it look decent. Jump out of any distance, get all his changes, etc. etc. He is a GREAT Eq horse. Jumps flat, easy to equtate on. Needs no longing prior to showing, get on and go. He is a happy camper when he's being ridden, but only when he is being ridden.

this comment is unfair hes not bitter hes defensive as people stil are treating hiim with out respect being tied all the time whilse in isnt fair on the horse and also remember that the stable is his place of rest and comfort so horse shouldnt be disterbe whilse easting or when hes put away for the evening this is his time to unwind and he cant do that whilse being tied up ----The remainder of the time he is a bitter horse.

The reason I ask is this particular horse seems to be bounced from barn to barn solely because of his personality. If I had the funds and I was looking for an eq horse to pack me around and help me win, this would be the one. I would definitely be able to look past his personality and learn how to work around it. Plus, who knows- maybe if he got the chance to bond with one person he would become friendlier.

he being bounce aorund as no one gives him the time of day for him to be a horse except when they want to ride him --

Would a bad attitude be enough to stop you from buying or leasing a horse like this?

nope i get horses and ponies like this in all the time for re habing due to people pissing the horse off or being to namby pamby baby cooo coo stuff
horses dont respect people that dotn respect them and a person thats has lack of confidence . or hestitate cuases the horse to have doubts doubts and confusion are fear factors 1st is to flee the 2nd to adavde you both can be either ridden wise or on the ground by handling wise

this horse gets peoples no's easily as no one handles him properly

ProzacPuppy

May. 22, 2009, 09:17 AM

I've know horses with "bad personalities" and I've known "bad horses". The bad horses are seriously deranged and have caused a number of documented injuries to those around them.

And then there are the "bad personalities". I've know quite a few mares who were just pissed off at the world. They swished the tail and pinned the ears, even nipped a few people but they never "savaged" anyone with kicks or bites that required stitches. Even under saddle alot of them looked angry but they were competent at their job.

However, I'd much rather no going into the relationship that the horse could be a problem rather than have one of those horses that seems fine if a little aloof and one day out of the blue punts someone across the barn.

I also think that the horse's level of ability and the rider's level of ability and goals would be something to consider in the resale. If the horse is a certifiable Intl level Grand Prix jumper who can be bad tempered and I wanted to get to the World Cup I could put up with a nasty personality for the few moments we were in the arena. If the horse is for an ammy who wants to have fun and hang out and groom their horse - I would pass by a mile.

ProzacPuppy

May. 22, 2009, 09:24 AM

Buttercups - My gelding is abit like that. Not mean, loves people he knows but abit aloof with strangers. And boy does he have an absurd sense of humor. He has snapped my bra strap while I was bent over picking his front feet. He often just grabs your sleeve (never gets the flesh) and will then stand there and bat his little eyelashes at you when you turn to look at him. He thinks he's hysterical. Most folks learn to accept his quirky personality. We had a very strict and proper European trainer who would not put up with that sort of behavior from most horses but allowed my clown to hold onto him.

This horse though is a big luvbug. You could sleep in his stall with no problem as long as he didn't try to roll in the shavings.

kellyb

May. 22, 2009, 10:16 AM

I would not buy a horse with an awful personality if I knew I had to resell, but if it was a personal horse, it wouldn't bother me. I do prefer a love bug, but if he is safe and gets the job done, I can deal with a poor attitude on the ground.

JumpQH

May. 22, 2009, 11:37 AM

tikihorse2

May. 22, 2009, 10:11 PM

For myself, yes. I'm 46 and though I ride seriously now, it's also one of my great joys in life. I finally have the time and financial resources to pursue it in the way I never could before.

Both my horses are "pets", if you will. Tiki isn't a pocket pony, but he's affectionate in a dignified gentleman's way. Dancer is a love machine. Both of them have good manners--oh, you bet!--but still, the personality of both is that of a friend.

If I were younger, I might put up with crabby horses. Now, life's getting too short. I can find sweet horses to ride and hang out with! :yes:

Kim

DancingQueen

May. 22, 2009, 11:26 PM

Not at all!
My first junior jumper was like that. My parents saw him in England and bought him without me getting a chance to see him first. I went to a different place over there to train for a few months and I got together with him there.
When I first met him he would spook and stick himself to the back of his stall if someone made a big move or even walked to fast outside his stall. He bit me a few times real bad and I was very hesitant to even go in there. He was the most solid packer you've ever met though. I showed him over 5,3 and did the junior europeans on him, and he was a real pet to ride even from the beginning, but he would get tense if people were standing too close to the jumps (yeah probably poled a bit much in the past).

I was in England for 3 months and then brought him home. It was about six months later he bit me for the last time (real hard though, I might still have a scar but it was on my back so I'm not entirely sure LOL).

In time he turned into such a sweetheart. He'd come running up to the fence whinnying when I came walking home from the schoolbus. He worshipped the freaking ground I stood on. I doubt that I will ever find the same connection with a horse ever again!

I've also met horses who would not change. Mares IMO tend to hold a grudge a bit longer. LOL

Either way, if you can work around him and think you can live with him the way he is right now, then go for it. He may change his bad ways to the better but if he is just a grouchy old fart with a hightened sence of right to privacy qat least you know you'll be able to handle it and as long as he is happy enough to do his job, who cares if he's an a** and doesn't snuggle afterwards!

mortebella

May. 23, 2009, 08:23 AM

It would have to be worse than what you describe here to stop me. This horse has too many great assets, and I'm with the posters above who think this is one that could change with proper, consistent handling. He does not sound crazy, just defensive and untrusting. In the situation where it was deemed important (riding) he was given good attention in the past, and look how wonderful he is. I think with time and patience, you could have an all around gem in this one. :)

Of course, there's always the other side of the story. One of the most splendid horses of my youth (did not belong to me) was an absolutely faultless 5-ft. jumper mare - who was a complete raging demon in her stall and if you even stood outside her stall. Even walking past you had to go as fast as you could, because as soon as she saw you, she started diving towards the front. We were all scared she'd batter herself to death in there. I knew her for something like 10 years, and this behavior never changed a whit. As soon as she stepped one foot over the threshold, her entire demeanor changed. Night and day. No one ever had even the most tentative theory as to why this nutball was like this. Was she abused in her stall, somewhere along the line? Maybe, but wouldn't it be extraordinary to associate the abuse soley with the stall and not with people? She was a perfect doll everywhere but in her stall. No vice of any kind, no fear of people. :confused: So we just lived with it. And were happy every day we did. :D (I rode her with a halter, no lead rope, just the crownpiece pulled back so I could reach it, and delivered bales of hay, balanced across her withers, around the stables. That's a horse that'll ride off yer leg!) Anyway, the point is, you'll meet up with the incorrigable nut, for sure, but I don't think that's the case you're describing here.

LookinSouth

May. 23, 2009, 11:04 AM

the personality issues wouldn't stop me from leasing but it would stop me from buying even if the horse was fantastic to ride, especially if I was shopping for a my own personal riding horse to keep for years to come. Now if I leased the horse first, developed a bond ,and was able to move past the personality issues then maybe buying wouldn't be an issue.

Equino

May. 23, 2009, 11:36 AM

I'm another who won't tolerate nasty, dangerous behavior no more how great the horse rides. Bad attitudes/not so great personalities on the ground is a different story. I worked at a farm who had a hunter that had scored a 100 at CC. He was not easy to work with on the ground, but he never went after you at any given chance. That's one horse I would've taken in a heart beat!

I don't need my horses to be cuddle buddies with me. Actually, I prefer a horse with a little less personality. I have one right now with a TON of personality on the ground, playful, in your pocket, always has to get his mouth on stuff, not nasty at all, BUT if you get after him, most of the time he gets pissy, like he does not get he is not on equal footing. However, he has never bit or kicked, more like pins his ears as he retreats. BUT he is fabulous to ride, so I put up with that big personalty.

It's one thing to tolerate bad attitudes for a great horse ride, but I definitely would NOT want to breed a mare with such a nasty attitude, especially one who is dangerous, I don't care how nice to ride they are, how much they've won. What if the baby inherits her nasty attitude or picks up the same characteristics as they develop their own personality? Even if you luck out and a few don't get her personality, that's just luck, never know what the next one will be like. IMO, NOT worth the risk. Why create a bad attitude horse?

CrazyDog

May. 23, 2009, 01:08 PM

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;4109221]My AO jumper mare is one of those "once in a lifetime" horses. Sometimes she's sweet and sometimes she's not. When she's working she's ALL BUSINESS and doesn't want anything to do with anyone. She's one of the only horses who's ever intentionally kicked me and tries to bite me every time I tighten her girth (my chiro, massage person, and non-traditional body work team can all attest to the fact that it's not a soreness issue). I love her even more for her personality. She sounds a little like 3eme's mare (though much less extreme) and I love her even more for it. The funny thing is that I think she's basically me in horse form. I understand every little reaction she has to everything because if I put myself in her shoes it's exactly how I would react! :lol:

My mare is just like this. She wants to have everything on her terms and we have frequent discussions about just who is boss. Luckily, she does back down but she is always testing limits.

She has a great work ethic and when she is ridden, she is very businesslike, gets on with the job and is kindness itself...as attested by her not holding a grudge at my appalling riding today.

I like horses to have a little spark to their personality and I would miss her crabby stubbornness if she suddenly changed.

While I like my mare's softer moments, I would consider a horse like the one you describe. It sounds like he is a really genuine horse with some baggage who needs someone to understand what he is and is not comfortable with. If he is happy in his job and you want him to do to that job, great!

Joy Karr

May. 23, 2009, 02:05 PM

Try an animal communicator and find out why he is acting this way. You may be able to overcome it and improve the situation. If not, thank God for his good points and go for it.

starkissed

May. 23, 2009, 02:35 PM

I prefer 'cuddly' horse for sure. However it probably wouldnt be a deal breaker because I would try and see why he was such a crab.

My gelding is nippy at other horses and will bite them in the cross ties, but he likes being w/ me, when I groom him and such.
My mare- she is all about food and could probably care less what I'm doing. It bothers me when she has her ears back, but her personality is just on being lazy and eating.

However, if he is hard to 'catch' in the stall, thats not a personality problem, thats a respect for humans issue.

playinforkeeps8

May. 23, 2009, 06:42 PM

There was a pony like this at the barn I ride at. She was extremely nasty, evil, just an angry pony in general. She'd kick and bite anyone near her. Plus she was horrible to ride. I started riding her over the summer and after a while, she stopped biting and kicking. Sometimes all a horse needs is someone to love them. You mentioned that he's gone from barn to barn, well maybe he just needs one home and one person to ride him. Some horses are just one person horses.

kimball1

May. 24, 2009, 09:37 PM

Yes, it would. The first time I went horse shopping with my trainer I flat out said, "I don't want to look at any horses that will hate me, no matter how great they are." So there were a few horses we didn't bother to try. LOL I figure I spend a ton of time and money in the barn, and it's nice to feel appreciated. I like the little nicker of recognition and the perk of the ears when I walk down the aisle. Now if the horse is just a crank b/c he's been bounced from barn to barn as the rent a ride qualifier, and he would get over it I would probably put the time in to bring them around.

faraway46

May. 24, 2009, 10:24 PM

Hey, you must have some "Diva" in you to clear a 5ft jump! No "follow the pack" type has the nerves to go over those obstacles, you need some fire in the furnace! When these alpha type start trusting and cooperate with their rider, there is no comparison... In my 37 years of riding I've had many of the special type and not one has let me down .
On the other hand, if you are buying one as a resale project, stay away. Not everybody is fond of these traits and you need as many prospective buyers as you can!

May. 24, 2009, 11:21 PM

sounds like the poor guy hasn't found the "love of a life time" and now comes with a nasty rep that people expect him to live up to, by this point everyone basically just tries to beat him to the punch while handling him on the ground and he gives back as good as he gets, what goes around comes around. Not saying he would behave like an angel as soon as some one said "hi pretty pony" or started singing "you are my sunshine" to him, but I'm sure he can sense people come in tense and expecting trouble. The way he is under saddle is just as much a part of his personality as his ground manners, and it sounds like he just wants to do a dang good job (it ain't easy being a packer) get a pat for it and then be left the h*ll alone to decompress until the next meal, don't blame him that much. I don't need a packer, don't need a teddy bear, but bad ground manners would not keep me from buying a horse that was good under saddle.

foursocks

May. 25, 2009, 01:01 PM

Not that one should look for a horse who is a jerk on the ground, but sometimes the super-talented ones, as faraway46 says, have a bit more fire in them. My trainer told me to read about Jet Run after a particularly difficult session with my monster. From there I started reading about a lot of other horses who are top competitors but less-than-sweet on the ground.

I'm sitting here right now with a nasty bite mark on my upper arm from not paying attention to Mr Grumpypants the other day- but holy cow, can my horse jump....I have a feeling he'll be my lifetime horse- I would never have bought him as a resale.

acoustic

May. 25, 2009, 01:57 PM

I would honestly have to work with the horse quite a bit before deciding. It wouldn't turn me off completely, but I would spend some more time with the horse. My horse is a big grump ass in his stall and makes nasty faces at everyone and everything. Makes those same faces on the cross ties. Very easy to handle though, and really does love attention, this is just how he is and I wouldn't trade him for the world.

I get along with the grumps, and I feel like they have more to give in the long run. My horse would run to the ends of the earth and back again if I asked him to. I had a second horse for a few years and he was as nice as could be and cuddly and sweet, but he didn't have any heart under saddle (and life in general), and never really bonded with me. My grump loves me after all these years together and I feel that if he were as sweet and loving as my second horse had been, he wouldn't have the same strength of character.

I'd say that if you're comfortable with this horse and understand his faults, he could have more to give in many ways than all those nice horses before him. ;)