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Savoy 8
May. 20, 2009, 11:25 PM
Ok I am having some problems with the USEF, I was fined and suspended a while ago for having signed my name in the wrong spot. They fined me $1,000 I really couldn't afford to pay that so I didn't show for a while and paid it when I could. Now I am at risk of being suspended again.

I declared my pro status a while ago so I could show some horses for some friends of mine I was told this is what I needed to do. They eventually moved and since I was no longer showing their horses I wanted to reinstate my AM status (keep in mind this was about 3 years ago), so I sent in a letter stating what I wanted. Just a few months ago I get a e-mailed letter from the USEF stating that if I want to reinstate my AM status I need to send them $50, so I wrote back saying that I requested this 3 years ago and thought it was already taken care of. Well I guess not because today I get a letter stating that I need to pay them $750 by June 19th, plus $200 for every show I attended and showed as a AM and I need to give back all ribbons, trophies, and monies won! Well I don't show myself anymore, but I have a pony out on lease that is still showing. I can't afford this! My dad can't afford to help, my mom just lost her job, and I am a waitress and a full time student. I have no idea what to do, I need this pony to keep showing so he can get a show record and I can sell him.

Anybody have any advice?

Serah
May. 20, 2009, 11:28 PM
You should call them and speak with someone... I haven't had any issues of this magnitude, but anytime I have had a problem with something they have been very pleasant to work with...

Savoy 8
May. 20, 2009, 11:38 PM
I have, they say I need to send in a letter with evidence for the hearing if I choose not to pay by June 19th.

Angel Undercover
May. 20, 2009, 11:39 PM
Speak to a lawyer.

brightwhitestockings
May. 20, 2009, 11:41 PM
the USEF takes FOREVER so i definitely agree with calling and getting a hold of someone.
When i transfered ownership of my last horse, and sent them the bill of sale, transfer applications, etc., it took them 5 months to get back to me and tell me they wouldn't accept it because the bill of sale was signed by the trainer instead of the owner (which was trainer's mom.) Okay, so i got the bill of sale signed by the original owner, and sent it back to the USEF. took them another 4 months to get back to me; by then i had sold the damn horse!
Good luck with your situation, it sounds yucky. :no:

Jaegermonster
May. 20, 2009, 11:52 PM
And then they wonder why horses keep getting reinvented with new names and ID's instead of getting transferred. Good Lord.

SaddleFitterVA
May. 21, 2009, 12:01 AM
The $50 is due when you send in the form to reinstate your ami status.

Until you are fully reinstated, you must keep showing as a pro, until you receive your letter.

In addition to the $50, you'll need 2 members, in good standing, to send in notarized letters that you are indeed an amateur per the USEF rules.

Personally, I don't show recognized when times are tight. But, you still must adhere to the rules when you DO return to recognized shows.

Savoy 8
May. 21, 2009, 12:53 AM
I completely understand... But I didn't know what I was suppose to do, I called them, they told me I need to send in a letter. So thats what I did, I didn't know that all this other stuff needed to be done. If I had known I believe I would have done it, instead of suffering the consequences of what will happen now. I never heard back from anyone for 3 years! So I thought I was a AM.
I don't care about points, I don't even care to be a member. I just want to show. I feel like to them 750 - 1000 dollars is pocket change, but to me it's a lot of money! I get fined a $1000 dollars for signing in the wrong place, doesn't that seem steap to some people. I see the same people showing at the USEF shows that have been suspended for sedating horses (have been suspended more then once and still do it) and they are still showing!

grandprixjump
May. 21, 2009, 01:53 AM
Like 99.9% of the rest of us, YOUR A NOBODY...

If you was bringing 15 personal horses to every big show. They would have been calling you 15 minutes after receiving your paperwork to get it corrected and done right.

If your a big name rider you can even GET AWAY with thanking your sponsors while showing as an ammy... And yes this recently happened, all they did was tell her to give up her status, while if it had been suzie q with one horse in the child adult jumpers at a "c" rated show, they would have FINED her $4000 and suspended her for 3.5 years for that offense...

AffirmedHope
May. 21, 2009, 01:57 AM
I thought that person in question got away with keeping their status because the sponsors were sponsoring the "owner" not the rider themselves.

Addison
May. 21, 2009, 08:10 AM
When you are a member of such an organization, it is important and your responsibilty to know and adhere to their rules.

You must be a member of the USEF to compete in rated shows whether you want to accrue points or not.

I suggest you compose a very simple yet detailed letter explaining your situation and send it to the USEF.


Where and what did you sign in the wrong spot that caused you to be suspended and fined $1000.00? That sounds like a very harsh penalty.

Jumpingfool
May. 21, 2009, 08:33 AM
I have, they say I need to send in a letter with evidence for the hearing if I choose not to pay by June 19th.

Well then you should do this.

The best thing you can do it read the rule book as it applies to your situation and go from there. Since the reinstatement rule says 'at least' one year and not 'after one year', you should have stayed on top of the situation.

No member gets a large fine and suspended for simply signing their name in the wrong place. There is more to that part of your story, too.

S A McKee
May. 21, 2009, 08:34 AM
$1000 does sound like a lot for signing in the wrong place.
From your posts regarding Ammie status I'm wondering if you were suspended for an Ammie rule violation ( showing as an Ammie when actually a Pro) rather than a wrong signature.
I know they can be excessive but I suspect there is more to the story. There is a $750 penalty for non payment if you ignore requests to pay. And if you are suspended there are fines for continuing to show or a horse/pony belonging to you showing while the owner is suspended.

phoenix mom
May. 21, 2009, 08:45 AM
Call and get the name of the person you are talking to. Have that person walk you through each step and if you are transfered to someone get their name. Deal with 1 person that way you have a contact and they will feel more responsible. I just did a transfer and name change with the help of Melissa and it was all done with papers in hand in 1 month, she couldn't have been nicer.

englishivy
May. 21, 2009, 09:16 AM
I completely understand... But I didn't know what I was suppose to do, I called them, they told me I need to send in a letter. So thats what I did, I didn't know that all this other stuff needed to be done. If I had known I believe I would have done it, instead of suffering the consequences of what will happen now. I never heard back from anyone for 3 years! So I thought I was a AM.
I don't care about points, I don't even care to be a member. I just want to show. I feel like to them 750 - 1000 dollars is pocket change, but to me it's a lot of money!

I've not had to deal with USEF in this capacity, but I think your best course of action is to write the letter (to cover your rear as you sort this out) and also call them immediately. Explain your situation, although understand that "ignornace of the law" is no excuse...you didn't read the rules or follow up on your change of status, and ultimately, it was your responsibility. As stated:

GR1307 Amateur Certification.
1. Every person who has reached his/her 18th birthday and competes in classes for
amateurs under Federation rules must possess current amateur certification issued by the
Federation. This certification must be available for inspection...

So they can argue that every amatuer (including you in your new capacity) has to have a current amateur certification. You never got your certification, so why didn't you follow up?


GR1308 Professional Status.
1. A person who engages in the activities described in GR1306 is considered a
professional for all competitions conducted under Federation rules.
2. A professional continues to be such until he/she has received amateur status by a vote
of the Hearing Committee. Any professional who wishes to be re-classified as an amateur
on the grounds that he/she has not engaged in the activities which made him/her a
professional within the last 12 months must notify the Federation in writing.
a. Such person shall submit to the Hearing Committee an amateur reclassification
request which is supported by:
(1) a notarized letter signed by him or her outlining the horse related activities
(using specific dates) which made said person a professional and outlining the
activities performed within the 12 month period (or longer) since professional
activities have ceased,
(2) two or more notarized letters from any Senior active Federation members
stating the relationship with the applicant and outlining the applicant’s activities for
the one year period preceding such written notification advising and testifying that
the applicant has not engaged in any activities which would make him/her a
professional as outlined in GR1306 during that time period,
(3) A processing fee of $50,
(4) a signed amateur certification located on USEF Membership application.
The burden of proof of proving amateur status is on the applicant. The Hearing
Committee may call for and/or consider any and all further evidence and facts which it
deems pertinent. The decision of the Hearing Committee on the reclassification request
shall be final.
b. Any changes of status from professional to amateur, or vice versa, shall be
published in equestrian.

They are going to say that the protocol to return to an ammy was never really instigated by you since you didn't submitt all the necessary information or the fee.

This sucks, I know, especially since USEF rules can be hard to understand at times. But these are rather clear, which makes your case more difficult to argue. :(

Remember that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar, so you want to be honest and resmorseful when you talk to them. If you don't really care about your points, ribbons, etc, you should comprimise and let those go. Maybe agree for you not to show even though your leased out pony can still show and accrue points? See what you can work out.

You may not have done any of this intentially or with the purpose of cheating the system, but the truth is, you did show as an ammy without fully changing your status. In the grand scheme of life, this is not that big of a deal...but it sure is a great life lesson in following up and accountability.

Good luck.

TSWJB
May. 21, 2009, 09:27 AM
I have to say i was talking with my trainer and she was talking about the fines that are imposed by the USEF and she said there is nothing you can do. you have to adhere to the rules and pay the fines. she runs horseshows and someone had been showing an animal without a measurement card. but they had been doing it for years prior. so she never checked. and she got hit with fines that were approx what you have been fined. she made no money from those shows. worked all day to pay fines and then some. she did contact a lawyer and there was nothing he could do. you need to contact the USEF and do what they say. maybe they would let you do a payment plan. but i dont think they will let you out of the fines. i would definitely be nice and remorseful and maybe they will cut you a break. but dont count on it.
i know show managers that were fined and suspended in my opinion unfairly. very unfairly. and they had to pay big bucks for something that happened to them due to an exhibitors fault. but they had to take the punishment. i did think it was highly unfair.

Hunter/JumperMom
May. 21, 2009, 09:41 AM
so this was three years ago it started, are you a life member? If not, when you renew, what does your card say? Ammy or pro?

MIKES MCS
May. 21, 2009, 09:44 AM
"You must be a member of the USEF to compete in rated shows whether you want to accrue points or not".

No you don't , you just have to pay the non member fee.

Kinsella
May. 21, 2009, 10:39 AM
Or, transfer the pony to someone else (parent, relative), pay their annual membership fee and get the pony the miles and get it sold. That way at least he can keep showing and doing while you get the rest of it sorted out (or not LOL!!). And don't take that as me saying don't take care of the issue - but I am sure having the pony sold will help with paying the fines if they make you pay, which they likely will do...

Savoy 8
May. 21, 2009, 11:06 AM
Yes, they did fine me $1,000 for signing in the wrong spot, I filled my info out for non member, paid the non member fee. Got the horse a number with the USEF. Then I signed saying I was a member when I wasn't. You would think they would see that after filling out all the paperwork for a non-member to be a non member, they might see it as a legitamate mistake signing that I was a member. I wrote a letter explaining the following and telling them that I had no intentions of trying to show as a member when I wasn't, I wasn't even showing in classes where you can get points. Next I get a letter in the mail stating my evidence and letter did nothing to prove my point and I would be expected to pay the fine of $1,000.

In all honesty I will probably just transfer ownership over to someone and then pay the member fee for that, instead of having to pay all this other crap. I am not going to risk another fine like this just so I can show. I love showing have been doing so since I was 5, but it's not worth it to me. I do MAYBE one show a year as it is, and I am in college waiting tables I don't have the money to pay these people just because they are mad at me for making a mistake. I will gladly give back everything they want or pay them for the ribbons I won, because I don't really care about them. But I am not going to pay $750, while people who are doing things much worse (intentionally) then I am and getting to walk!

TSWJB
May. 21, 2009, 11:31 AM
But what about in the future, maybe 10 years from now and you have a nice horse you want to show?
i would definitely try to resolve this matter. maybe payment plan??? they are really tough when it comes to the rules. i had no idea until i was chatting with my trainer how tough they are on silly little mistakes.

Rosie
May. 21, 2009, 11:33 AM
Sorry for all your troubles but frankly, I can understand why the USEF is fining you.
As I understand it, you have been showing as an ammie while technically a pro, (It's not USEF's job to instruct you in the rules and follow up to make sure you understand them) AND have been showing as a "member" when you were not. (maybe an honest mistake, maybe not)
Now, you are admitting on a public BB that you intend to "go around the rules" in order to achieve what you want.....the ability to show your pony. While claiming that you think it's ok, because other people do (in your opinion) worse things and don't get caught/fined.

There's a ton of disgruntled people on these boards who complain that the USEF does nothing to enforce the ammie/pro rules. When they do - other people complain.

IF you are truly caught up in a situation where you are "innocent" - then do your best to prove your innocence - I have never found the USEF to be difficult to work with or unwilling to listen to reason.

Savoy 8
May. 21, 2009, 11:38 AM
I am not concerned about the future right now, only getting my pony sold or leased. I guess I will get to that hurdle when it comes. I will write a letter, and I will try my best to explain what happend. I don't think it will do any good, but I will try.

A payment plan is out of the question, I am working to pay for my horses, and my other bills, but still run short every month. The USEF fine is the last thing I am concerned about.

gasrgoose
May. 21, 2009, 12:24 PM
There are always two sides to a story and I would love to hear the USEF version of the $1000 fine. It will/would probably be different than what we are hearing. The tone of the OP recent posts suggest to me that he/she have a general disregard for doing things the "right" way.

To say "I really couldn't afford to pay" sounds to me like you really just didn't want to pay. And now the USEF is very suspicious of your every move. As a member who follows the rules and pays what is due, I hope they continue to be a thorn in your side until you pay up what you owe. If you don't like it don't be a member and don't show.

seeuatx
May. 21, 2009, 12:43 PM
Nice to know that 1k is chump change to some... God forbid they sent me that bill, there goes rent, student loan, and car insurance for that month. Notice where she is a full-time student waiting tables... not likely to have several K laying around to pay the USEF. I don't think she sounds like a person who willfully disregards the rules, but rather that some issues are vague and the USEF is not very good at adding any sort of clarity (but that's what you get when you only pay your reps. $10/hr) I know when I look at an entry for a USEF show it all looks like ancient greek and I spend about a week just trying to figure out what all I need and where all I need to sign.

At least from the story OP is telling it was a mis-understanding of the process of reinstating Ammy status. She did as she was told by a rep of the USEF, now they back track. It's why I don't believe anything USEF tells me right now.

Maybe, just maybe the USEF needs put some consideration into whether they want to, or even can, handle the number of grass roots people that equestrian sports holds. They want to be the big umbrella and encompass all, but they only want to deal with the upper echelon.

I always forget why I hate showing... between this thread and the one on trainer conflict, now I remember :rolleyes:

Portia
May. 21, 2009, 01:19 PM
I understand it is frustrating, but the USEF has more than 80,000 members to deal with and they can't just accept "I'm sorry" or "it was a mistake" just on your word alone, or everyone would do give that excuse and no one would follow the rules. Like any large organization, the USEF has procedures it has to follow to enforce its rules. That's not just because they are insensitive or want to be hard assed -- it's because that's what their rules require, and the law requires that they adhere to their own rules and procedures. Otherwise they can be subject to liability the next time someone does something and complains that the procedures haven't been followed in other cases, so it is unfair to them. While it may sound strange, adhering to the established rules and procedures is a matter of fairness for everyone.

But do not let it stand, do nothing, and think you'll deal with it later. You will be suspended, and your name will be on the suspension list, until you address the problem. It will only be worse if you let it go now and then try to come back to the sport 10 years from now, because by then the fines will have increased, the evidence will be lost, and there will be no way to prove your case or be reinstated short of paying the entire amount due without question. The only way ignoring it works is if you are absolutely sure you will never again want to show a horse or own a horse that will show in recognized competition in the United States or anywhere else in the world -- because other federations won't let you show when you're suspended by your home federation.

Keep working with the USEF. It is important to demonstrate that you are interested in resolving the problem, that it was inadvertant, and that you want to work things out and make things right. Read the rules, read the documents carefully to determine what they say you need to do, listen carefully to what the staff says you need to do, and do it.

xabbracadabra
May. 21, 2009, 01:23 PM
Ok I am having some problems with the USEF, I was fined and suspended a while ago for having signed my name in the wrong spot. They fined me $1,000 I really couldn't afford to pay that so I didn't show for a while and paid it when I could. Now I am at risk of being suspended again.

I declared my pro status a while ago so I could show some horses for some friends of mine I was told this is what I needed to do. They eventually moved and since I was no longer showing their horses I wanted to reinstate my AM status (keep in mind this was about 3 years ago), so I sent in a letter stating what I wanted. Just a few months ago I get a e-mailed letter from the USEF stating that if I want to reinstate my AM status I need to send them $50, so I wrote back saying that I requested this 3 years ago and thought it was already taken care of. Well I guess not because today I get a letter stating that I need to pay them $750 by June 19th, plus $200 for every show I attended and showed as a AM and I need to give back all ribbons, trophies, and monies won! Well I don't show myself anymore, but I have a pony out on lease that is still showing. I can't afford this! My dad can't afford to help, my mom just lost her job, and I am a waitress and a full time student. I have no idea what to do, I need this pony to keep showing so he can get a show record and I can sell him.

Anybody have any advice?


Call me a bitch but I have to say I think this is all your own fault. Why did you need to declare pro status to show someone elses horse? People who lease horses and show don't declare pro status. As long as you were not charging them you had no need to go pro. And why would you even want to go pro if you were not making a buisness out of what you were doing. It is not hard to go online to the USEF rule book and look up all the things you needed to know before making a decision

Release First
May. 21, 2009, 01:26 PM
so this was three years ago it started, are you a life member? If not, when you renew, what does your card say? Ammy or pro?

Cards don't say "Pro" they just say amateur if that applies.

Hunter Mom
May. 21, 2009, 01:28 PM
As long as you were not charging them you had no need to go pro. And why would you even want to go pro if you were not making a buisness out of what you were doing.

No, if she wasn't getting $$ to show the horses, she would've remained an ammy. However, even if she wasn't making it a business - just getting a little on the side - she was not an ammy any more and tried to do the right thing at the time instead of showing as a shamateur.

Lucassb
May. 21, 2009, 01:30 PM
I am not concerned about the future right now, only getting my pony sold or leased. I guess I will get to that hurdle when it comes. I will write a letter, and I will try my best to explain what happend. I don't think it will do any good, but I will try.

A payment plan is out of the question, I am working to pay for my horses, and my other bills, but still run short every month. The USEF fine is the last thing I am concerned about.

You may want to consider that if you are suspended, any horses (ponies) owned by you cannot be shown, and I believe there is a specific rule which prevents sales or leases being executed to circumvent that process. So you may have to settle up with the USEF if you want to continue to compete the pony - or sell it to a buyer who wishes to compete it.

grandprixjump
May. 21, 2009, 01:34 PM
I understand it is frustrating, but the USEF has more than 80,000 members to deal with and they can't just accept "I'm sorry" or "it was a mistake" just on your word alone, or everyone would do give that excuse and no one would follow the rules. Like any large organization, the USEF has procedures it has to follow to enforce its rules. That's not just because they are insensitive or want to be hard assed -- it's because that's what their rules require, and the law requires that they adhere to their own rules and procedures. Otherwise they can be subject to liability the next time someone does something and complains that the procedures haven't been followed in other cases, so it is unfair to them. While it may sound strange, adhering to the established rules and procedures is a matter of fairness for everyone.


Your WRONG about this, they do CHANGE the rules according to who you are. If one person gets in trouble like stated by OP, being a nobody, they burn them, while someone who is VERY RICH, says something to the effect of thanking their sponsors after a GP, gets their Ammy status taken away, with NO FINE OR SUSPENSION. WHERE IS THAT FAIR TO THE GRASSROOTS MEMBERS?

xabbracadabra
May. 21, 2009, 01:35 PM
No, if she wasn't getting $$ to show the horses, she would've remained an ammy. However, even if she wasn't making it a business - just getting a little on the side - she was not an ammy any more and tried to do the right thing at the time instead of showing as a shamateur.

Isn't there also a rule though that says you can recieve gifts as long as they are under a certain amount of money?

Giddy-up
May. 21, 2009, 01:41 PM
In all honesty I will probably just transfer ownership over to someone and then pay the member fee for that, instead of having to pay all this other crap.

I can't remember, but are you currently suspended from USEF or was just fined? If you are suspended, so are any horses listed in your name as owner. I would imagine USEF isn't going to allow a transfer of ownership so the pony can keep showing (otherwise people would be suspended all over & their horses still showing with "new" owners so what's the punishment).

And if you ARE in fact suspended & no transfer of ownership can take place until that is cleared up, that could also hinder in the sale of your pony. I personally wouldn't buy a horse/pony that I couldn't transfer the ownership on & be able to show.

Will USEF still consider you suspended until you pay the fine as that was part of your "punishment"?

I am sorry, but this is a mess you are going to have clean up. Whether you do it now or later is for you to decide.

LovesHorses
May. 21, 2009, 01:47 PM
What is more disturbing to me is that someone who doesn't even bother to learn than rules can become a professional!!

Giddy-up
May. 21, 2009, 01:51 PM
What is more disturbing to me is that someone who doesn't even bother to learn than rules can become a professional!!

Well that's no shocker. All you have to do is start accepting/charging $$$ for teaching or riding & wah-lah...you are a professional. There is no competency level to become one. Go to any show & you'll always find some wanna-be hanging out their shingle that doesn't have a clue & their equally clueless clients following them around. :no:

LovesHorses
May. 21, 2009, 01:54 PM
Those types are all over California, well I guess anywhere. I can't feel bad for anyone who doesn't take the time to read the rulebook.

Seal Harbor
May. 21, 2009, 03:12 PM
Suspended persons can sell their horses that are also suspended. No where in the rules does it say you can not. What you can not do is have someone else show the horse for your benefit. Once the ownership transfers the horse is no longer suspended.

c. SUSPENSION for any period of the horse or horses, owned by him or her, or shown
in any name or for his, her, or their credit or reputation, whether such interest was held
at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter. The Executive Committee or
the Hearing Committee may at a later date remove the suspension of said horse or
horses if it is demonstrated to their satisfaction that a sale or transfer thereof was made
by such person, partnership, or corporation in such as to be a bona fide transaction and
not with the intention of relieving the suspended owner of penalty. See GR138.

GR138 Owned by Him or Her.
1. For purposes of applying suspension only, the phrase “owned by him or her” with
regard to a horse shall include any individual who is one of the following: an owner, a partial
owner, a lessor (pursuant to GR703.1c, a lessee may apply for the release from suspension
of a leased horse), a lessee, a holder of a partnership interest in a horse, or an owner of
shares in a corporation, limited liability company, syndicate or any similar entity which owns
or leases a horse either directly or indirectly, in whole or in part, and spouses or domestic
partners of such persons. See GR703.1c, GR1301.4a, GR1302.2c, GR1309.2b, and
GR913.1.
2. This rule is not applicable in determining ownership for any other purposes in the rules.

The USEF rules are available for EVERYONE to read, not just members. www.usef.org .

Giddy-up
May. 21, 2009, 03:25 PM
Suspended persons can sell their horses that are also suspended. No where in the rules does it say you can not. What you can not do is have someone else show the horse for your benefit. Once the ownership transfers the horse is no longer suspended.

c. SUSPENSION for any period of the horse or horses, owned by him or her, or shown
in any name or for his, her, or their credit or reputation, whether such interest was held
at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter. The Executive Committee or
the Hearing Committee may at a later date remove the suspension of said horse or
horses if it is demonstrated to their satisfaction that a sale or transfer thereof was made
by such person, partnership, or corporation in such as to be a bona fide transaction and
not with the intention of relieving the suspended owner of penalty. See GR138.

I didn't mean to imply she couldn't sell the pony at all. I just meant she may not be able to give the new owners a transfer of ownership thru USEF & the pony wouldn't be able to show at USEF shows.

So if the OP puts the pony in her parent's name that is probably not going to fly by USEF standards?

Lucassb
May. 21, 2009, 03:45 PM
Suspended persons can sell their horses that are also suspended. No where in the rules does it say you can not. What you can not do is have someone else show the horse for your benefit. Once the ownership transfers the horse is no longer suspended.

c. SUSPENSION for any period of the horse or horses, owned by him or her, or shown in any name or for his, her, or their credit or reputation, whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter. The Executive Committee or the Hearing Committee may at a later date remove the suspension of said horse or horses if it is demonstrated to their satisfaction that a sale or transfer thereof was made by such person, partnership, or corporation in such as to be a bona fide transaction and not with the intention of relieving the suspended owner of penalty. See GR138.




In all honesty I will probably just transfer ownership over to someone and then pay the member fee for that, instead of having to pay all this other crap. I am not going to risk another fine like this just so I can show. I love showing have been doing so since I was 5, but it's not worth it to me. I do MAYBE one show a year as it is, and I am in college waiting tables I don't have the money to pay these people just because they are mad at me for making a mistake. I will gladly give back everything they want or pay them for the ribbons I won, because I don't really care about them. But I am not going to pay $750, while people who are doing things much worse (intentionally) then I am and getting to walk!


And herein lies the problem.

The OP has stated above that they have no intention of paying the fine and they have now broadcast to the whole world via this BB that they intend to "just transfer ownership over to someone and pay the member fee" instead of paying the fine they've incurred. And I am willing to bet that the hearing committee could very easily decide that those statements constitute "an intention of relieving the suspended owner of penalty."

DMK
May. 21, 2009, 03:47 PM
I admit, I'm surprised if you showed in ammy restricted classes over the last 3 years and no show manager caught it? They are supposed to check your ammy status, and if you didn't correctly request ammy status, one would think your card didn't say you were an ammy, right?

So either a lot of staff at shows weren't checking stuff too well or maybe you didn't show in any classes that were restricted to ammies? I think from a USEF perspective, that would strictly be A/A or A/O. I'm not sure they would have jurisdiction over things like pre-adult since those are unrecognized classes and defined by the show. If you were only showing in unrated or unrestricted classes, then maybe you can make the case that even though you thought you were an ammy, you now know you are still a pro, and the outcome was the same - you could have entered those classes as a pro or an ammy. Maybe get a no harm/no foul (entirely dependent on their good graces) and start your ammy petition all over again, only properly this time... ;)

Seal Harbor
May. 21, 2009, 03:52 PM
I was replying to the post that said they couldn't sell or transfer ownership via a sale (real one) to anyone else.

The other is why the damn rules get more and more convoluted all the time. People pulling crap like that, trying to circumvent the spirit of the rules. Look at the 14 or so subsections they added because people (who were caught, eventually) worked for Paul Valliere, for his benefit.

Seal Harbor
May. 21, 2009, 03:54 PM
I didn't mean to imply she couldn't sell the pony at all. I just meant she may not be able to give the new owners a transfer of ownership thru USEF & the pony wouldn't be able to show at USEF shows.

So if the OP puts the pony in her parent's name that is probably not going to fly by USEF standards?

She can transfer the ownership of the pony via a legitimate sale through the USEF. That would be the only way to get the pony un-suspended, unless and until the suspension is served and the fines are paid.

She can not transfer it to a family member and have it be off the suspension list.

Savoy 8
May. 21, 2009, 04:00 PM
I don't understand why some of you think I am choosing not to pay this penalty, and am just holding on to the $750 I have just sitting around. It's not that I don't want to pay it that I CAN'T!!!!!:mad:

I barely make that a month! not to mention coming up with it by June 19th. If they want suspend me for this fine by me, but thats not going to make money magically appear that I don't have. Yes I am sorry about what happend but unless someone has a time machine I can't do anything about it now, all I can do is try to tell them what happend and hope they don't fine me a ton of money I don't have. Yes, it was a mistake and yes I should have been more knowledgable of the rules. I don't have any desire to be a member, I am happy showing as a non member. And since I really only do maybe one USEF rated show a year I really don't think I am going to loose sleep at night from missing out on this.

I will sell the pony before the hearing if I have to.

vxf111
May. 21, 2009, 04:05 PM
I think you needed to call USEF a L-O-N-G time ago and try to work through these issues when they were small, manageable issues and not one giant clusterf*ck like it is now. You're in a tough spot now, without getting an attorney involved-- you're unlikely to get any leniency from the USEF and I am guessing you can't afford an attorney. I don't know what to suggest except maybe consider it a life lesson in dealing with things as they come up and not letting them fester and complicate.

I am sorry, I hope this doesn't sound like I am coming down on you. I don't mean to be. But I think the original infaction could have been dealt with and you wouldn't have the problem you have now. It sounds like you got set down, fined, and they put you on a payment plan-- and then you stopped being able to pay. I understand money being tight (boy do I!) but you needed to circle back with USEF *THEN* and work out a payment plan and/or some way to defer the payments. Not just ignore the situation, continue to show, and hope things didn't catch up with you. You've also ALWAYS GOT TO READ THE RULES. There's a little saying that ignorance of the law is not an excuse, USEF has the same policy about its rules.

I guess the best thing you can do now is really get your explanation together and throw yourself on the mercy of the USEF at the hearing. I wouldn't expect that to work, but I don't see what else you can do without hiring a professional to help you. I really don't. I am sorry you're in this mess.

Angel Undercover
May. 21, 2009, 04:05 PM
Would it be possible to work out some kind of payment plan? Many organizations that expect significant sums of money from people are wiling to work something out. $750 is a lot of money, and I'm sure USEF can understand not having it all to give.

I think the point that many others were trying to make was that it's all well and good to say you don't mind never showing a USEF show again right now, but who knows what the future will hold? There may come a time when the decision you make now will come back to haunt you. Better to settle it now, and then it's done and over with and you will never have to worry about it again.

Melzy
May. 21, 2009, 04:08 PM
In life, you need to take adult responsibility for your mistakes. Cheating the system, whether intentional or not, is still cheating. Hopefully; you have learned a valuable lesson. Using excuses like college student, low paying job, single parent, etc. doesn't cut it in the real world. A signature is a powerful thing and any mature adult will recognize it's benefits and consequences. Good luck in clearing your name ASAP.

xabbracadabra
May. 21, 2009, 04:14 PM
I don't understand why some of you think I am choosing not to pay this penalty, and am just holding on to the $750 I have just sitting around. It's not that I don't want to pay it that I CAN'T!!!!!:mad:

I barely make that a month! not to mention coming up with it by June 19th. If they want suspend me for this fine by me, but thats not going to make money magically appear that I don't have. Yes I am sorry about what happend but unless someone has a time machine I can't do anything about it now, all I can do is try to tell them what happend and hope they don't fine me a ton of money I don't have. Yes, it was a mistake and yes I should have been more knowledgable of the rules. I don't have any desire to be a member, I am happy showing as a non member. And since I really only do maybe one USEF rated show a year I really don't think I am going to loose sleep at night from missing out on this.

I will sell the pony before the hearing if I have to.

Then why did you even bother posting? Is your pony for sale for $100,000 and needs a pony finals record? Go put it on dreamhorse for cheap and with a local schooling show record and what is has and get it sold if money is that tight. And if you never show in rated shows why even bother spending $100+ to register for USEF anyway?

Melzy
May. 21, 2009, 04:27 PM
Another thought that just popped into my mind is the USEF show where you competed as an ammy, may get audited and fined for not having accurate records. That could come back to bite you even harder! You must pay your debts. Not having the funds to pay debts is a reason but not an excuse. Some law breakers get jail time in the real world. Work out a solution now.

Savoy 8
May. 21, 2009, 04:39 PM
Thanks for everyone's advice and help... I am going to write a letter to them, thats really the only thing I can do. I know I will have to pay if I want to show again with them, but I can't do it right now. That's what I am going to have to tell them.

Moesha
May. 21, 2009, 04:42 PM
You are getting great advice, call the USEF, talk to someone get something in writing, The USEF is a businesss and an association/organization that has to abide by rules and laws....but it is made up of people who will listen to you and may be able to help you or at least work with you and advise you....talk to them and explain the situation....maybe there was a mistake somewhere on their end as well....if you don't talk to them then the situation stays as it is June 19th comes and you are suspended. It is not going to go away and remember when you are suspended you CANNOT even be on the grounds of a recognized show.

Call them as soon as you can there are no gurantees except in what will happen if you do nothing.

SGray
May. 21, 2009, 04:42 PM
I am not concerned about the future right now, only getting my pony sold or leased. I guess I will get to that hurdle when it comes. I will write a letter, and I will try my best to explain what happend. I don't think it will do any good, but I will try.

A payment plan is out of the question, I am working to pay for my horses, and my other bills, but still run short every month. The USEF fine is the last thing I am concerned about.

so there is a pony, more than one horse and several shows over the last few years --- perhaps what you need is a budget

Savoy 8
May. 21, 2009, 04:46 PM
Sgray what do you mean by that?

Coppers mom
May. 21, 2009, 05:13 PM
I thinked it'd be absolutely lovely if people would read...

Anyways.

I don't understand the $200 per show, you give up all the ribbons, etc won, and all that. That just doesn't even make sense (though it is the USEF, and I completely understand that they come up with all kinds of stupid fines). I would call down and try to figure that out, because you really shouldn't have to pay that. Then, try to work out some kind of payment plan. Explain that you did exactly what you were told by switching over to pro, and now only want to get things fixed. Talk with them about a payment plan for the $750.

Just try to stay positive, and not whiney throughout the whole thing. I understand the USEF is a big PITA (I had a friend who sent in his membership renewel, signed an affidavit at the show that weekend saying he was a member, and got slapped with some huge fine because he sent it on Thursday and it didn't get there until the Tuesday after the show). Just make it clear that it was a misunderstanding, you read the rules, talked to people, and still got steared wrong. Hopefully, it'll work. Otherwise, just show as a non-member and pay the non-member fee. If you're only going to one show a year, it's not even worth the membership fee.

Hunter/JumperMom
May. 21, 2009, 05:21 PM
But if you owe finds, wouldn't they still consider you a member? Maybe I should read better. But I guess I'm just not getting it! Aren't they saying your a pro, so they are still considering you a member, so if you sign as a non-member, that is wrong, isn't that what started alot of it. I find it interesting that the USEF has so much power, I used to go nuts when my darling with drive the golf carts! I would explain that USEF can take away your card, etc.!! She didn't get it, luckily, she never got caught, at 13 she looked 19, and unless she was mis-behaving, no reason for anyone to question! But I should show her this to make her realize the power USEF does hold!!

S A McKee
May. 21, 2009, 05:26 PM
I thinked it'd be absolutely lovely if people would read...

Anyways.

I don't understand the $200 per show, you give up all the ribbons, etc won, and all that. That just doesn't even make sense (though it is the USEF, and I completely understand that they come up with all kinds of stupid fines). I would call down and try to figure that out, because you really shouldn't have to pay that. ..

. Otherwise, just show as a non-member and pay the non-member fee. If you're only going to one show a year, it's not even worth the membership fee.

The $200 per show is a standard fine. Makes no difference if you 'think' you should pay it or not. If everybody dealt with USEF that way nobody would ever get suspended no matter what the infraction. They make the rules, not us. If you really don't like a rule write to them and propose a change or just.don't.show.

If the OP is suspended or gets suspended again then paying the non-member fee is not a solution. If you are suspended and on the show grounds that starts another cycle of fines and suspensions. Best to resolve it now and move on.

SGray
May. 21, 2009, 05:44 PM
Sgray what do you mean by that?

excerpts from your posts in this thread:

===================================
I was fined and suspended a while ago for having signed my name in the wrong spot. They fined me $1,000 I really couldn't afford to pay that so I didn't show for a while and paid it when I could

They eventually moved and since I was no longer showing their horses I wanted to reinstate my AM status (keep in mind this was about 3 years ago),

saying that I requested this 3 years ago and thought it was already taken care of. Well I guess not because today I get a letter stating that I need to pay them $750 by June 19th, plus $200 for every show I attended and showed as a AM and I need to give back all ribbons, trophies, and monies won! Well I don't show myself anymore, but I have a pony out on lease that is still showing. I can't afford this! My dad can't afford to help, my mom just lost her job, and I am a waitress and a full time student

I just want to show. I feel like to them 750 - 1000 dollars is pocket change, but to me it's a lot of money!

I am not going to risk another fine like this just so I can show. I love showing have been doing so since I was 5, but it's not worth it to me. I do MAYBE one show a year as it is, and I am in college waiting tables I don't have the money to pay these people just because they are mad at me for making a mistake.

A payment plan is out of the question, I am working to pay for my horses, and my other bills, but still run short every month

I don't understand why some of you think I am choosing not to pay this penalty, and am just holding on to the $750 I have just sitting around. It's not that I don't want to pay it that I CAN'T!!!!!

===================================

indicate to me that for some period over three years you have been living beyond your income -- that you went to multiple recognized shows while trying to support yourself and your pony and your horses on a very limited salary

so I think stepping back and evaluating your basic living expenses versus the hobby that you so enjoy would be a good step


]you are apparently over the age of 21 (since you would not have to worry about amatuer status when you were under 18 and you said that that was over three years ago) --- often things that we took for granted that our parents provided for us when we were children are out of our financial reach when we attain adulthood, at least for a time while we are starting out


]==================================

and regarding this statement "But I didn't know what I was suppose to do"


as an adult you try to take responsibility for your actions and your life - in this case it requires reading and understanding the relevant sections of the USEF rule book such as

GR1306 Amateur Status.
1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur

for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as defined in GR101, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make him/her a professional...........

GR1307 Amateur Certification.
1. Every person who has reached his/her 18th birthday and competes in classes for amateurs under Federation rules must possess current amateur certification issued by the Federation............

GR1308 Professional Status.
2.A professional continues to be such until he/she has received amateur status by a vote of the Hearing Committee. Any professional who wishes to be re-classified as an amateur on the grounds that he/she has not engaged in the activities which made him/her a professional within the last 12 months must notify the Federation in writing.
a. Such person shall submit to the Hearing Committee an amateur reclassification request which is supported by:
(1) a notarized letter signed by him or her outlining the horse related activities (using specific dates) which made said person a professional and outlining the activities performed within the 12 month period (or longer) since professional activities have ceased,
(2) two or more notarized letters from any Senior active Federation members stating the relationship with the applicant and outlining the applicant’s activities for the one year period preceding such written notification advising and testifying that the applicant has not engaged in any activities which would make him/her a professional as outlined in GR1306 during that time period,
(3) A processing fee of $50,
(4) a signed amateur certification located on USEF Membership application The burden of proof of proving amateur status is on the applicant. The Hearing Committee may call for and/or consider any and all further evidence and facts which it deems pertinent. The decision of the Hearing Committee on the reclassification request shall be final.
===================================

the responsibilities of adulthood are often difficult - we all understand that - but they are our responsibilities

at this point - read the rules, understand where you went wrong - communicate with the USEF that you are now clear on them and try to work with them to settle up the fines, etc so that you can return to enjoying your horses

Coppers mom
May. 21, 2009, 05:46 PM
The $200 per show is a standard fine. Makes no difference if you 'think' you should pay it or not.

I meant that I didn't think they'd actually have something so ridiculous, and that it was probably a misunderstanding.

(honest question) How is that a standard fine? Why would they keep fining you once you've paid the initial "You screwed up big time" fine? It just seems redundant. :confused:

Seal Harbor
May. 21, 2009, 05:49 PM
But if you owe finds, wouldn't they still consider you a member? Maybe I should read better. But I guess I'm just not getting it! Aren't they saying your a pro, so they are still considering you a member, so if you sign as a non-member, that is wrong, isn't that what started alot of it. I find it interesting that the USEF has so much power, I used to go nuts when my darling with drive the golf carts! I would explain that USEF can take away your card, etc.!! She didn't get it, luckily, she never got caught, at 13 she looked 19, and unless she was mis-behaving, no reason for anyone to question! But I should show her this to make her realize the power USEF does hold!!

When your 13 year old hops out of the golf cart she is driving to get on a horse for a 14 and under eq class and the steward sees it there is going to be hell to pay. No one without a valid driver's license is supposed to be driving golf carts around a horse show. Get her a bicycle.

Why would you find it "interesting" that the USEF has so much power? The only place the USEF has power is at horse shows sanctioned by the USEF. If you want to show at those shows you must abide by the USEF rules. It is our National Governing body (FEI).

You violate the rules the USEF gets to smack you around. Every single person who shows at a USEF sanctioned show signs a statement on the entry blank that says they understand that the competition is 1) dangerous and you can't sue the USEF or the competition if some thing happens to you or your horse, 2) that you are willingly signing and will abide by the Rules and Bylaws of the USEF and that you will accept the final decision of the Hearing Committee.... that is in EVERY USEF prize list and signing the entry blank says you agree to it.

Every sport has some kind of governing body, rules, and By-laws, if you want to play you must agree to abide by the rules. It doesn't mean you have to but when you get caught not abiding by the rules the USEF has the right to discipline the violator.

Hunter/JumperMom
May. 21, 2009, 05:55 PM
your right, and that was a bad example, but needless to say that wouldn't have been the situation, because she would have been riding her horse to the class and back to the tent. And riding her bicycle most of the time.

But my point is KIDS don't realize the power USEF has, as any governing body of any sport.

S A McKee
May. 21, 2009, 07:26 PM
I meant that I didn't think they'd actually have something so ridiculous, and that it was probably a misunderstanding.

(honest question) How is that a standard fine? Why would they keep fining you once you've paid the initial "You screwed up big time" fine? It just seems redundant. :confused:

Perhaps a visit to the rule book is in order for you.
There are lists of offenses and fines for those offenses contained in the rules.
As examples: "FORFEITURE of trophies, ribbons, prize money, and/or sweepstakes won in connection with the offense committed, which will be redistributed accordingly and payment of a fee of $200 to the competition in question. Federation points may be nullified and redistributed at the discretion of the Hearing Committee"
"On receipt of such notice, the Federation will notify said person, of his or her indebtedness to the competition as well as the imposition of a processing fee in the amount of $50 payable to the Federation. If the person fails to make settlement with the competition and/or the Federation within two weeks of the notice from the Federation, he or she will be fined the additional sum of $750 payable to the Federation and he or she and any horses owned by him or her and any horses and/or persons for which the non-negotiable sums have been paid will automatically be barred from taking any part whatsoever in any competition Licensed or endorsed by the Federation until settlement is made both of indebtedness to the competition and to the Federation. If the indebtedness to the competition is paid within two weeks of the notice from the Federation and only the $50 processing fee is not paid to the Federation within that timeframe, the Federation will assess a $250 fine and the suspensions as referenced above will remain until the debt to the Federation is paid in full. Publication of said suspension will appear in equestrian.."

If you violate a rule and get suspended and then you either a)continue to show while suspended or b) continue to do the same behavior that got your a$$ fined in the first place, then yes, you get more fines.

Portia
May. 21, 2009, 07:50 PM
I meant that I didn't think they'd actually have something so ridiculous, and that it was probably a misunderstanding.

(honest question) How is that a standard fine? Why would they keep fining you once you've paid the initial "You screwed up big time" fine? It just seems redundant. :confused:
It can certainly be confusing, but most of the answers really are in the rules -- somewhere. ;)

It's a standard fine in that it is set out in the rules and is the fine the USEF imposes everyone who improperly shows as an amateur. (See GR703.g). Each show is a new and separate violation of the rules. Having that fine for each show/violation is a deterent to people doing the same thing over and over again. For some people a single $200 fine would not be nearly enough to keep them from showing ever week and hoping they don't get caught.

Let's remember this thread the next time someone complains that the USEF isn't doing enough to stop "shamateurs" from showing in amateur classes.

Savoy 8
May. 21, 2009, 09:23 PM
Well 3 years ago I was in a better position then I am in now! as a lot of people are right now. Second I have shown MAYBE one rated show a year! And I am capable of saving for that and making it happen. Plus the last 2 shows I have shown in was a friends horse, and they paid for him to show so it was no expense for me!

Please don't lecture me about budgeting when you have absolutely no idea about me or how I manage my money! Just because I can't afford to pay a extra $750 does not mean I need to learn how to budget. Thats just ignorant

Angel Undercover
May. 21, 2009, 10:30 PM
I think one of the general points being made is that you are an adult and you are responsible for your actions. If you were pulled over for speeding and fined $200, you couldn't say "gee sorry, I can't afford to pay that" and just ignore it.

You made a mistake, and now you have to pay for it. Life isn't fair, sometimes it really sucks, but you need to own up to your mistake and rectify it. Many people have offered suggestions on ways you may be able to do this: see if you can arrange a payment plan, or maybe you may even have to take out a small line of credit or use a credit card and then slowly pay that off.

Addison
May. 21, 2009, 10:59 PM
MIKES MCS Of course you are correct. You do not have to be a member to show in a rated show. The non member fee must be paid at each rated competition by the non member.

Melzy
May. 21, 2009, 11:20 PM
........I find it interesting that the USEF has so much power, I used to go nuts when my darling with drive the golf carts! I would explain that USEF can take away your card, etc.!! She didn't get it, luckily, she never got caught, at 13 she looked 19, and unless she was mis-behaving, no reason for anyone to question! But I should show her this to make her realize the power USEF does hold!!

H/JMom, don't you realize that you are teaching your 13 yr old child to be dishonest by driving? Don't you realize the consequences to you and/or your trainer? The kid doesn't have to get it, YOU DO! Where is your power as her parent?

silver2
May. 22, 2009, 01:05 AM
I still want to know what your membership card says regarding your status. If it says you are an amateur then you're in a much better position.

RockinHorse
May. 22, 2009, 06:48 AM
H/JMom, don't you realize that you are teaching your 13 yr old child to be dishonest by driving? Don't you realize the consequences to you and/or your trainer? The kid doesn't have to get it, YOU DO! Where is your power as her parent?

Thank you!

Hunter/JumperMom
May. 22, 2009, 07:45 AM
H/JMom, don't you realize that you are teaching your 13 yr old child to be dishonest by driving? Don't you realize the consequences to you and/or your trainer? The kid doesn't have to get it, YOU DO! Where is your power as her parent?

I said at 13 she looked 19,not she is 13 or was she driving a cart at 13? as I said, BAD EXAMPLE!

She is almost 17 and perfectly legal. And please do not question my parenting. You don't know me and I don't know you.

cyberbay
May. 22, 2009, 08:05 AM
I used to work at the USEF. It's a well-meaning institution, with a terrible problem with reality. There are 2 realities: the one of those setting the rules (committee members), and the one of those enforcing them (office). And the twain shall never meet. And the result is forever a bunch of unintended consequences.

Like, the paperwork that keeps layering on. And the time lags in completing said paperwork from the Lexington end of things and the apparent inconsistencies. You should have seen the baskets and baskets of mail and paper that swamped most of the department cubicles. It was unbelievable.

Most of the members are harmless and try to abide; if they 'break' a rule, it's usually minor and with (mostly) innocent intentions. But, most of the rules are set for those who are lawbreakers, by nature, by intent, by powerlessness and/or a low-grade panic, and every loophole has to be closed on them. Those are for whom the rules are made, and yet they are played out equally on the honest ones, who make honest mistakes. IMO, maybe big trainers get a lot of attention, but it's really the show managers who run the industry, and the USEF.

Also, I would say, as a sociological comment, that USEF members are not the best business people and don't do so great at reading their mail or realizing a deadline is looming.

(No that you're asking, but if in your shoes, show unrecognized until you sell your pony.)

RockinHorse
May. 22, 2009, 08:12 AM
But if you owe finds, wouldn't they still consider you a member? Maybe I should read better. But I guess I'm just not getting it! Aren't they saying your a pro, so they are still considering you a member, so if you sign as a non-member, that is wrong, isn't that what started alot of it. I find it interesting that the USEF has so much power, I used to go nuts when my darling with drive the golf carts! I would explain that USEF can take away your card, etc.!! She didn't get it, luckily, she never got caught, at 13 she looked 19, and unless she was mis-behaving, no reason for anyone to question! But I should show her this to make her realize the power USEF does hold!!


I said at 13 she looked 19,not she is 13 or was she driving a cart at 13? as I said, BAD EXAMPLE!

She is almost 17 and perfectly legal. And please do not question my parenting. You don't know me and I don't know you.

(bolding is mine) From your original post it certainly looked like you were saying she was driving a golf cart at age 13. Otherwise, why the comment about never getting caught?

fair judy
May. 22, 2009, 08:51 AM
Well 3 years ago I was in a better position then I am in now! as a lot of people are right now. Second I have shown MAYBE one rated show a year! And I am capable of saving for that and making it happen. Plus the last 2 shows I have shown in was a friends horse, and they paid for him to show so it was no expense for me!

Please don't lecture me about budgeting when you have absolutely no idea about me or how I manage my money! Just because I can't afford to pay a extra $750 does not mean I need to learn how to budget. Thats just ignorant

IGNORANT is Not reading the rule book and Doing what it says to do. the language for the A/O application is quite simple. you never received a card, so you could not have simply assumed that you had done it correctly. you got yourself into this pickle, came here for advice and are now calling people ignorant for pointing out your own glaring errors.

stop making excuses and "woman up". rules are rules.

Rosie
May. 22, 2009, 09:17 AM
Savoy 8 - you need to grow up. Seriously. The more you post, the more I'm able to understand how you got into this situation and why the USEF hasn't been "working with you" to resolve it.

"Let's remember this thread the next time someone complains that the USEF isn't doing enough to stop "shamateurs" from showing in amateur classes."
Portia, I couldn't agree more.
I can't believe the amount of complaining about the USEF doing what is SUPPOSED to do - they are the governing body of our sport! I'm sure they make mistakes. Not sure they are at fault in this "situation".

mvp
May. 22, 2009, 09:38 AM
But seriously?

The OP wants a bailout because she didn't read carefully not once but twice?

The OP is wealthy enough to want to market a pony at rated shows but can't find a grand? That might be a show and a half.

The OP is old enough to cash the sale check and write a bill of sale but can't manage the USEF book?

Sorry, maybe I'm just having a bad day, but it makes me crazy when people don't try and then whine afterwards.

Pay the fines and consider it an expensive lesson.

Jumphigh83
May. 22, 2009, 10:17 AM
I particularly enjoy the premise that cheating is only cheating IF you get caught. Thanks for that uplifting post H/J mom....And there you have WHY the rule book has to be so lumbering and verbose...to circumvent those that know and use EVERY angle they can......sad.....

SGray
May. 22, 2009, 10:24 AM
all we have to go on are your own statements



good luck at the hearing

Seal Harbor
May. 22, 2009, 10:32 AM
I still want to know what your membership card says regarding your status. If it says you are an amateur then you're in a much better position.

The OP is not a member, she paid the non member fee to show. The only thing she would have is an Amateur Card which costs $30 if you are a non member and you have to apply for one each year.

ExJumper
May. 22, 2009, 10:36 AM
I have no dog in this fight, but I've been following this thread out of curiosity and I must ask, why all the sudden hate on H/J mom?

As an amateur myself, the OPs issues seem a little more important that if a mom can wrangle a headstrong 13 year old off a golf cart when the kid's in a rush. Especially since when the rule went in place there were a lot of pre-teens used to tooling around on their own in golf carts. Kids probably didn't really think about the rule and just did what they were used to. Maybe the kid broke the rule and didn't get caught. If she doesn't do it any more and she never mowed down an octogenarian while driving, I'm willing to let the past slide.

And call me selfish, but I'm more concerned about people breaking ammy rules than I am of them breaking golf cart rules.

So rather than jump on H/J mom for what her kid may or may not have done 4 years ago, perhaps we should keep the discussion focused on the OP's problems, which appear to have been compounded by general apathy toward USEF rules.

Hunter/JumperMom
May. 22, 2009, 10:48 AM
Ex-Jumper - thanks, I too am puzzled, and going forward will just keep my mouth/fingers shut!

I wrote it in jest, but didn't come across as such. I am sorry for all those who I have offended. Didn't realize how this would be taken. The child in question is almost 17, honor student, etc., so I must have done something correct. We are far from being labeled as cheaters. As I have even contacted USEF in the past when points were awarded to her by mistake! Did I screw up when I found she used a cart to go to a far away ring to find her bridle that someone borrowed and left there? YES, I am guilty. She was 15 when this took place - yes still wrong.


But I truly don't understand beating this issue to death, my point was KIDS don't realize ramifications of their actions, and sounds like th OP is a kid, while maybe older than mine at the time, still a kid.

MyGiantPony
May. 22, 2009, 11:10 AM
Didn't the golf cart rule just go into effect last year? So your kid wasn't breaking any rules back then anyway...

S A McKee
May. 22, 2009, 11:20 AM
Didn't the golf cart rule just go into effect last year? So your kid wasn't breaking any rules back then anyway...


Not last year. Probably 2005

ExJumper
May. 22, 2009, 11:22 AM
Didn't the golf cart rule just go into effect last year? So your kid wasn't breaking any rules back then anyway...

It was a few years back, but within my recent memory, so no more than 4 years MAX.

I only remember because I had moved and was showing with a different barn and at the first big outside show everyone kept having to pull the 13 year old off the cart because she couldn't remember that she wasn't allowed to drive anymore. And I've been showing with them now for 4 years.

MyGiantPony
May. 22, 2009, 11:28 AM
It was a few years back, but within my recent memory, so no more than 4 years MAX.

I only remember because I had moved and was showing with a different barn and at the first big outside show everyone kept having to pull the 13 year old off the cart because she couldn't remember that she wasn't allowed to drive anymore. And I've been showing with them now for 4 years.

OK...i do remember it being discussed here on the board...but time flies and I have absolutely no grasp on it....:lol:

Giddy-up
May. 22, 2009, 11:30 AM
But my point is KIDS don't realize the power USEF has, as any governing body of any sport.

I don't think it's just limited to kids.

People complain USEF does nothing. Well now it's doing something. They have to start somewhere & at some point in time. Where would people like them to start then if now isn't good?

SaddleFitterVA
May. 22, 2009, 11:39 AM
As for understanding ALL the rules, that is a pretty daunting task, not that it excuses anyone from not knowing them.

I am always almost scared to go to USEF shows, even AFTER reading through the rules, because there might be something I missed, and I cannot afford any USEF fines. It would be the end of recognized showing for me. I'd have to pay it, and would probably throw in the horse-show towel. I'm definitely a nervous nellie about any D&M, even if they say they are "legal" since I would hate to be in the back of Equestrian Magazine.

But, to the original topic, I did declare myself pro a while back, and ended up NOT making the money I thought I'd make (a commission on a sale) and so I was able to return to amateur status with the $50 + letters + waiting for hearing committee to rule. Until then, had I gone to a show, it would have been open divisions only. Was it a PITA? Not that bad, I didn't have anything to really show recognized anyway, not to mention, saving the money is a better plan in the long run anyway. "oh boo, I cannot spend thousands upon thousands on horse shows this year because I don't have enough vacation time to spend weekdays there".

Now, I just make sure I read and understand all the rules for amateurs and make sure I follow them all, since there are no classes on Sat/Sun for professionals at most of the shows around here....actually, even for ami's you are expected to be a trust fund kid who has unlimited time during the week given how many divisions are run.

The rules book is long to read, but luckily, most of us only need to read a couple of sections, the general sections that apply to everyone, and then your discipline/breed section.

mvp
May. 22, 2009, 11:47 AM
The rules aren't rocket science.

I'm not sure why a kid can't know, remember or even infer that the USEF rules apply to them while at a show. I suspect "I didn't know" is a convenient excuse. Sure, make the mistake once.

I also think the D&M rules aren't rocket science. I'm show infrequently, but do make sure I understand the rules. I ask my vets for legal and (sometimes versus) therapeutic doses. Then I read the USEF section on the drug in question. If I still have a question, I call.

I also understand that they test for cirulating blood levels, derived from a urine test. This means that liver and kidney function play a part in governing what I give and when to what shows up when my gelding pees in a cup. If I have questions-- say, as my horse ages-- I get my vets to do some basic bloodwork showing at least kidney function.

Like I say, it's not rocket science. It is taking responsibility for making sure you comply with the rules. And it does involve making an effort. Sometimes I think "I didn't know" ought to read "I didn't want to try to figure out the letter or even spirit of the rule." If people did this much we perhaps wouldn't have an archane, layered always trying to belatedly close a new loop-hole kind of rule book.

Janet
May. 22, 2009, 11:55 AM
I would like some clarification.

Did the OP comptete with an amateur card?

If she entered a restricted-to-amateurs class WITHOUT an amateur card, then she deserves everything the USEF is throwing at her. (But, the show secretary(s) is/are also at fault because she/they should never have accepted the entry without an amateur card).

If she DID have an amateur card, then the USEF is at fault for issuing the amateur card when she had not been officially reinstated as an amateur, and they should not be imposing the full penalty.

MyGiantPony
May. 22, 2009, 12:04 PM
Janet - I think she said on one of her posts that she only showed in non-rated divisions. My internet is acting up, so going back through the thread to check would take me forever.

Janet
May. 22, 2009, 12:08 PM
Janet - I think she said on one of her posts that she only showed in non-rated divisions. My internet is acting up, so going back through the thread to check would take me forever.
Doesn't matter. She still needs an amateur card to compete in an amateur division- rated or not.

Every person who has reached his/her 18th birthday and competes in classes for
amateurs under Federation rules must possess current amateur certification issued by the
Federation

MyGiantPony
May. 22, 2009, 12:09 PM
Also wanted to add...as much as I agree that part of being an adult is taking responsibilities for our mistakes, I think it sounds like SOME of the fault is with USEF. She says she filled out the non-member paperwork, paid the non-member fee, but then signed in error on the line that says she was a member...why in the world would someone pay a non member fee and fill out the affadavit if they were actually a member?

Seems like SOMEONE should have caught the discrepancy. Is it really necessary to hit someone with a huge fine for something like that?

MyGiantPony
May. 22, 2009, 12:12 PM
Doesn't matter. She still needs an amateur card to compete in an amateur division- rated or not.

Gotcha...I guess when I think of "nonrated" divisions, I think about sidesaddle, pre-greens, etc....

what divisions are non rated and for ammys only?

PineTreeFarm
May. 22, 2009, 12:15 PM
I would like some clarification.

Did the OP comptete with an amateur card?

If she entered a restricted-to-amateurs class WITHOUT an amateur card, then she deserves everything the USEF is throwing at her. (But, the show secretary(s) is/are also at fault because she/they should never have accepted the entry without an amateur card).

If she DID have an amateur card, then the USEF is at fault for issuing the amateur card when she had not been officially reinstated as an amateur, and they should not be imposing the full penalty.

I'd like to understand the sequence of events. It's possible the penalties are for unrelated violations.

The first violation is this, maybe?:
""Yes, they did fine me $1,000 for signing in the wrong spot, I filled my info out for non member, paid the non member fee. Got the horse a number with the USEF. Then I signed saying I was a member when I wasn't.""
It's not clear if that fine was paid in full or not.

The second event is a letter asking for return of trophies and pay fines.
That may be for a horse owned by the OP showing while OP was suspended or it may be for showing as an Ammy when really a Pro. Can't tell.

OP, are you going to go for a hearing?

ExJumper
May. 22, 2009, 12:29 PM
Gotcha...I guess when I think of "nonrated" divisions, I think about sidesaddle, pre-greens, etc....

what divisions are non rated and for ammys only?

Modified Adults (2'6" classes are popular, 3'3" classes also popular)
Beginner Adults
Adult Equitation

Portia
May. 22, 2009, 12:32 PM
I used to work at the USEF. It's a well-meaning institution, with a terrible problem with reality. There are 2 realities: the one of those setting the rules (committee members), and the one of those enforcing them (office). And the twain shall never meet. And the result is forever a bunch of unintended consequences.

Like, the paperwork that keeps layering on. And the time lags in completing said paperwork from the Lexington end of things and the apparent inconsistencies. You should have seen the baskets and baskets of mail and paper that swamped most of the department cubicles. It was unbelievable.

Most of the members are harmless and try to abide; if they 'break' a rule, it's usually minor and with (mostly) innocent intentions. But, most of the rules are set for those who are lawbreakers, by nature, by intent, by powerlessness and/or a low-grade panic, and every loophole has to be closed on them. Those are for whom the rules are made, and yet they are played out equally on the honest ones, who make honest mistakes. IMO, maybe big trainers get a lot of attention, but it's really the show managers who run the industry, and the USEF.

Well said and too true. :) I'm on the other side, a committee member, and the rule making process does leave something to be desired. The problem is, I can't figure out a better way to do it and still have significant input from people in each breed and discipline and with particular knowledge of issues that come up in practice.

At least when we reorganized the Rulebook we also got a rule passed that allows the staff to make non-substantive changes in the rules as adopted, like fixing typos and mistakes in references to other rules, etc. And the staff can now put the rules where they should be in the book rather than having to stick with whatever the proponent of the rule came up with, which was one of the major things that led to not being able to find the rules you were looking for.

Seal Harbor
May. 22, 2009, 12:33 PM
Gotcha...I guess when I think of "nonrated" divisions, I think about sidesaddle, pre-greens, etc....

what divisions are non rated and for ammys only?

Pre Greens are rated, so are Children's and Adults.

Non rated would be the the 2'6" divisions (not Ponies) Training hunter, Schooling hunter, low, the 47 flavors of speed bump classes.

Seal Harbor
May. 22, 2009, 12:39 PM
Also wanted to add...as much as I agree that part of being an adult is taking responsibilities for our mistakes, I think it sounds like SOME of the fault is with USEF. She says she filled out the non-member paperwork, paid the non-member fee, but then signed in error on the line that says she was a member...why in the world would someone pay a non member fee and fill out the affadavit if they were actually a member?

Seems like SOMEONE should have caught the discrepancy. Is it really necessary to hit someone with a huge fine for something like that?


There is no line on an entry that states you are a member. Three years ago she would have had to fill out an affidavit that she was a member, along with her paying the non member fee, someone should have caught that. Unless they did not happen at the same show. Then no one would have until all the stuff from all the shows was at the USEF and people started to enter data. Which then led to the discovery that the person was not a card carrying amateur as well.

Montanas_Girl
May. 22, 2009, 12:39 PM
I think a lot of this could have been avoided if the OP (supposedly a COLLEGE student, for crying out loud!) had a better grasp of the English language. I've found her posts distracting at best and illegible at worst, and I'm only a few years older than she is.

The USEF rules are NOT that difficult to understand. Neither is an entry blank. I was filling mine out on my own at 15 and have not yet made a mistake on a single one. Why would you fill out the nonmember paperwork and then sign as a member? That was mistake number one.

Mistake number two was not taking care of the first infraction when it happened. It doesn't sound like the USEF offered the OP a payment plan; rather, she just ignored the problem until she was "able" to pay the fine.

Mistake number three was not bothering to actually read the rules to be reinstated as an amatuer. Again, they're not rocket science. If she showed as an amatuer when she was not yet eligible, it was her own fault.

If her letters to the USEF have looked anything like her posts here, it's no wonder she hasn't been able to get any help reducing her fines and/or setting up a payment plan. Whoever is reading them probably cannot figure out what she is talking about or what she wants them to do!

Savoy 8
May. 22, 2009, 01:47 PM
Acutally the first fine WAS taken care of IN FULL (no payment plan).

And while I can't go into details, things are actually looking up for me with this situation. Thanks to everyone for your advice!

Janet
May. 22, 2009, 01:51 PM
Here's the link to the actual USEF fine for OP: (go down to one from Greenville, NC)
http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/HearingCommittee/October2008.PDF

It's alot more complicated than just signing on the wrong line. There was also an additional "A" competition that same year in 2007. I think, but not sure, the show company got fined for that.
I didn't see anything about Greenville. Did you mean Roanoke Rapids?

If so, there is nothing about signing on the wrong line- just about competing as an amateur while the USEF had her listed as professional.

Compared with others, the punishment seems pretty mild, just the standard fine ($750 + $250 per show) and a "censure". No suspension, and they allowed her to rapply for amateur status immediately (hearing was July 2008, allowed to re-apply for Amateur status (if qualified) "one year from June 24 2007")

ExJumper
May. 22, 2009, 01:53 PM
I didn't see anything about Greenville. Did you mean Roanoke Rapids?

Bottom of page 4. Greenville, NC.

Janet
May. 22, 2009, 02:04 PM
The Greenville reference at the bottom of page 4 is "on competition grounds while suspended". Nothing to do with either "signing in the wrong place", nor with "amateur status".

Is that the one you mean?

Savoy 8
May. 22, 2009, 02:13 PM
I was under the assumption that the suspension was over when I showed up at that show. I was wrong, I didn't unload my horses and as soon as they told me I was suspended I left. The reason I was suspended was because I signed saying I was a member when I wasn't.

Was I wrong for not checking this out? Yes... but this situation is resolved.

I didn't come on here looking for pity. I understand what I have done, though it was a mistake the USEF doesn't know that, and I don't expect them to believe me. But the facts are simple riding and showing are not something everyone can do (money wise). People have other responsiblities, and if I can't pay it, I can't pay it... Thats just the way it is, if I got a $200 speeding ticket (as someone stated earlier) I believe that would be a priority, since I rely on a car to get to work and school.

PineTreeFarm
May. 22, 2009, 02:22 PM
[quote=Savoy 8;4112894]I was under the assumption that the suspension was over when I showed up at that show. I was wrong, I didn't unload my horses and as soon as they told me I was suspended I left. The reason I was suspended was because I signed saying I was a member when I wasn't.

/quote]

Ok, still wanting to understand the timeline.
You got suspened and.or fined for the signing on wrong line thing ( which seems to involve claiming to be a member when you weren't )

Then you got a second fine for being at a show grounds while suspended.

And now you have a 3rd situation with USEF that's going on currently? This one may be for showing as an Ammie while engaged in pro activities.

Savoy 8
May. 22, 2009, 02:27 PM
No the first suspension and then showing up on the show grounds was the same fine. After I paid the fine in 2008 I was told I was in good standing with the USEF. Now the current situation has me being fined for a show in 2007 andd 2008.

PineTreeFarm
May. 22, 2009, 02:37 PM
No the first suspension and then showing up on the show grounds was the same fine. After I paid the fine in 2008 I was told I was in good standing with the USEF. Now the current situation has me being fined for a show in 2007 andd 2008.

I'm not so sure about that. The fine for being on the show grounds while suspended is a second violation. How long were you originally suspended for?

Ponymom4
May. 22, 2009, 02:44 PM
USEF may levy a fine for each individual infraction or may lump it in together with other instances. What it sounds like happened is you paid for a fine but then they later cited you for a violation that was prior to you paying the fine. Then they can do that. Remember it goes by each individual instance. It sounds like they noticed other instances of showing while suspended and decided to cite for each and every one.

When USEF suspends someone how do they send notification? If you did not receive valid notification of a suspension, then that may be an argument for mitigation.

OAK
May. 22, 2009, 05:05 PM
Savoy 8

Are you still on the suspension list. Or do you go back on it in June if you do NOT start to pay the fine.

Portia
May. 22, 2009, 05:44 PM
Acutally the first fine WAS taken care of IN FULL (no payment plan).

And while I can't go into details, things are actually looking up for me with this situation. Thanks to everyone for your advice!
Well, that's good. Hopefully you'll get it all worked out with the USEF, and will be sure to keep this experience -- and all those rules! -- in mind in the future.

As the old saying goes, "let it be a learning experience." :)

Guin
May. 22, 2009, 06:18 PM
OP, I have a lot of sympathy for you. This whole thread gives me a headache. There is NOTHING worse than fricking bureacracy, which the USEF has in spades. It sounds worse than the Registry of Motor Vehicles!

If at all possible, if you have any paperwork from any of those shows in question, and your canceled checks, make copies of everything as evidence. "I was at Show A, I presented my USEF card, they accepted my entries" etc. Clearly you were not trying to scam anyone, as a lot of these bureaucratic posters seem to think. Do you have your USEF card(s) still? Make copies of them for backup!

Good luck, and remember: the more physical evidence you have, the better your chances!

Midge
May. 22, 2009, 07:23 PM
Savoy, the following lines are all quotes from you. Do you not see the pattern here? I am working under the assumption that you haven't held a member card while attending these shows and you paid the non member fee and declared yourself an amateur. Am I correct?




I was fined and suspended a while ago for having signed my name in the wrong spot.

so I wrote back saying that I requested this 3 years ago and thought it was already taken care of. Well I guess not

I didn't know that all this other stuff needed to be done.

I don't even care to be a member. I just want to show

Then I signed saying I was a member when I wasn't

I will probably just transfer ownership over to someone and then pay the member fee for that, instead of having to pay all this other crap

I was under the assumption that the suspension was over when I showed up at that show. I was wrong,

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 22, 2009, 07:46 PM
I was in a similar situation (I think??) to the OP's original violation/fine, however, my fine was MUCH less, so I'm not sure how this resulted in a $1,000 fine?? Here's my story (kind of long, bear with me)...

I leased my horse out between 2006 and 2007 while I spent 13 months living abroad. The horse was leased to a kid in my barn whose parents are completely NON-horsey. When I left for Germany, I provided all the information regarding my USEF number (I was a member for the 2006 season, but not 2007 as I was out of the country).

Lease kid was only showing the horse in the summer/fall, as her academic schedule didn't permit florida in the winter. During the summer of '06, she showed the horse, providing my USEF number in the "owner" information.

Fast forward to spring '07, kid takes horse to Culpeper, kid's parents fill in info. on entry blank assuming I had renewed for '07. I had informed trainer that they needed to pay a non-member fee on my behalf if they wanted to show the horse that year, as I had no interest or need in renewing my membership during that year. Unfortunately, because the parents didn't consult trainer in filling out entry forms, it appeared as if I was claiming to be a member when I was, in fact, not. Actually, I hadn't been in the USA for about 7 months at this point.

A few months later, my mom gets mail from the USEF on my behalf, stating that I had filled out information at a horse show claiming membership status that I didn't have, and they were fining me $200. Two hundred. Not $1,000. Something is fishy with the original penalty of which the OP speaks. $1,000 is a bigger violation than a simple paperwork error.

***I understand there was a lot of stuff wrong with how this lease worked out- ie, trainer should have informed these individuals how to fill out entry blanks, my agent (who had power of attorney for the time of the lease, as I was not available to sign paperwork, etc) should have taken the proper procedure to register the lease in order to avoid all of this, etc., but this didn't happen, and although I could have simply informed the USEF that I hadn't even been in the US at that time, so I couldn't have fraudulently filled out an entry form, I took responsibility for the situation by paying the fine and renewing my memebership from Germany.

Janet
May. 22, 2009, 09:18 PM
FrenchFry,

I am guessing that she actually signed the affidavit (claiming that she was a member, but didn't have her card with her) rather than just putting in a number when she didn't renew.

"False Affidavit" has always generated a bigger fine. Luckily they have done away with the affidavit now, so it won't happen eny more.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 22, 2009, 09:55 PM
FrenchFry,

I am guessing that she actually signed the affidavit (claiming that she was a member, but didn't have her card with her) rather than just putting in a number when she didn't renew.

"False Affidavit" has always generated a bigger fine. Luckily they have done away with the affidavit now, so it won't happen eny more.

Okay, I can see that generating a larger fine, however, it still doesn't fit with the story: ie, she signed "one form" saying she wasn't a member, then "accidentally" signed "another" saying she was. The affidavit was clear, you had to fill in information that clearly stated you *were* a member in good standing, including your USEF number. If I recall correctly, there was a whole mess of wordage at the top of the page explaining in plain terms what you were signing.

Lucassb
May. 22, 2009, 10:15 PM
I would guess that the original fine was less - a lot less - than $1000. They add penalties if you don't respond appropriately in a timely manner. I would be willing to bet that the current $1k fine includes penalties along those lines.

Moesha
May. 28, 2009, 12:01 AM
I just happened to finally look through May's "Equestrian" magazine and in the suspensions section there is coincidentaly a case very similar to this. A woman was fined £1,500 for competing at a horse show in 2007 in amateur classes although she was recorded as a professional with the federation. In addition the fine also included the fact she had been reported "on more than one ocassion as being argumentative with federation staff." She was also required to return any prizes and prize money won in amateur classes in 2008 and she must also pay a fine of £200 to each competition she attended in 2008.

Across Sicily
May. 29, 2009, 02:33 AM
The one thing I don't get from this entire thread is HOW the heck the OP showed IN AN AMATEUR CLASS without expressly HAVING AN AMATEUR CARD.

It's stated in pretty big letters on my own personal USEF card that I'm an amateur....

How would a show secretary not catch it? Granted I am from Breedland (Morgans) and don't know how H/J competitions work particularly well (and certainly not the entries), but we have to attach all our USEF/Breed assoc cards to our original entries, sign in fifty jillion places and name the classes that are being entered. I could see a post-entry, maybe, where things aren't being cross-referenced to one another, but... this? I just do not understand.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
May. 29, 2009, 06:22 AM
I think the situation from the perspective of the USEF is viewed as follows: OP did NOT possess and amateur card, or if she did, didn't fulfill the appropriate requirements therefore, so fraudulently possessed an amateur card. When she registered for her amateur classes, she did so fraudulently because she wasn't an amateur. HOWEVER, it was not necessarily the job of the show secretary to make sure of/review the OP's qualifications to show in such classes.

Per the USEF's point of view, it is our responsibility as competitors to understand the rules of our federation and abide by those rules. It is clearly stated in the rulebook who is eligible to join as an amateur. It is also clearly stated in the rulebook how one regains their amateur status. If one *doesn't* understand the process after consulting the appropriate section of the rulebook, then it would be appropriate to call the USEF with a list of questions pertaining to the exact part of the rule they don't understand.

In the OP's case, she wanted to be reinstated as an amateur. Instead of reading the rules and going about being reinstated according to those procedures, she called the USEF and expected someone to tell her what to do. While that's not entirely inappropriate in itself, she didn't follow through with the USEF after she received no response from them regarding her status. The USEF is fining her for having not followed proper procedures that are clearly outlined in their governing documents. It was not the show secretary's job to check her amateur status against the classes for which she had registered. THAT is the job of the USEF review board, which is pursuing that process now.

Janet
May. 29, 2009, 10:21 AM
It was not the show secretary's job to check her amateur status against the classes for which she had registered. THAT is the job of the USEF review board, which is pursuing that process now.
Not so sure about that.

For instance
GR1213.4 ... If a rider or driver in amateur classes
does not possess current amateur certification, the secretary must require the individual to
complete the necessary application (see GR1307).
And

GR1309.2.a. The following credentials must be available to Competition Management and the
Federation steward/technical delegate. Competitions may, at their discretion, confirm
any of the below electronically with the Federation office:
(1) Amateur Certification.
(2) Copies of Junior Hunter and pony measurement cards.
...

Since we have seen competitions penalized for not checking measurement cards, I would deduce that they could also be penalized for not checking amateur cards.

Across Sicily
May. 31, 2009, 02:42 AM
I have heard of competitions penalized for letting amateurs show in classes where they didn't have amateur cards.

If the USEF provided her with an Amateur card after she applied for one, then it is the USEF who is at fault and not the OP, show secretary, or anyone else. If the OP entered an Amateur class at a rated show whilst not being in possession of an Amateur card and the show secretary did not catch it, then both the OP and the competition would be at fault.

Seems pretty black and white to me.

Can you actually enter a USEF rated competition as an Amateur while not possessing a USEF Amateur card? I didn't think of that one before.

Go Fish
May. 31, 2009, 03:48 AM
Can't you pay a non-member fee and amateur fee at a show? In other words, you don't have to possess a USEF membership card or USEF amateur card at a show. You just declare yourself an amateur, pay the fees, and show.

Janet
May. 31, 2009, 01:24 PM
"Amateur card" is free for USEF members, $30 for non members.

You have to sign the same statment either way.