Unethical & irresponsible BO

[Iropeum]

Since ya'll gave me some good advice on how to deal with a gal at my barn, I figure I'd like to get some more opinions and see if I am making a big deal out of nothing. I need some "horsepeople" input cause I love my husband, but hes not horsey and doesn't understand. lol!



Anyway. I found some things out from another boarder there about some incidents that went on betweeen their horses. Horses turned out together, kick, bite, etc. But if one horse got seriously beat up by another or got caught in the fence, etc. Shouldn't the owners of the animal be notified? Even if there are not MAJOR marks on the horse that would be obvious to the eye?


A HUGE incident that happened between 3 horses there has not been made know to the owner of the "victim" horse, the horse should have been seen by a vet to make sure everything was ok,
Its got me extremely irritated that the BO is not telling her what happened. My thought is that she doesn't want to "lose"the income.

I do not expect to be told about every sneeze or fart my horses make, but I damn well expect to be told if anything major happens. Thinking back, there were a few mysterious things in and around my horses stall. I am now wondering what happened!


sigh...... looks like I may need to think about moving after all, or am I making a stink???? I just feel that if something happens that I won't notice she won't tell me. I thouroughly examine my horses almost daily anyway, but still. :confused:

[ChocoMare]

Follow your gut.... tis time to move on. I know I would be outta there in short order.

If they'll lie about this incident (and hiding the truth is lying), then what else are they "withholding?" And putting horses at risk that don't belong to you despite an owner's request? Nope, homey don't play dat.

[mjrtango93]

Unless you have a really good reason to stay......I would go! And quickly!!!

[BuddyRoo]

You may want to consider that the folks you're talking about (including BO or a friend of the BO) could put two and two together here and you might find yourself in a bad situation with a homeless horse.

I'd maybe edit the post and make something equally major up to pose the question.

Personally, to me that's a huge red flag. Horses beat each other up. Accidents happen. Shit happens. Whatever. But to me, the owner should've been notified. Period. At least give the owner a chance to have some say in whether or not the horses get medical attention. I'd be ticked.

[Iropeum]

You may want to consider that the folks you're talking about (including BO or a friend of the BO) could put two and two together here and you might find yourself in a bad situation with a homeless horse.

I'd maybe edit the post and make something equally major up to pose the question.

Personally, to me that's a huge red flag. Horses beat each other up. Accidents happen. Shit happens. Whatever. But to me, the owner should've been notified. Period. At least give the owner a chance to have some say in whether or not the horses get medical attention. I'd be ticked.

I know what you are saying, but Its extremely doubtful BO or the friends she hangs with would be on a site like this:) HIGHLY unlikely. But you are right.... I'll take your advice

[Nes]

Urg! It drives me crazy when BOs won't own up to things that happen on their property!

I know owners get upset when accidents happen & some won't understand, but the vast majority are mature enough that when you come out and tell them what really happened they are going to deal with it just fine. It's especially bad when the horse doesn't get the proper medical treatment because "no one knows" now the injury/illness started.

Working at a barn a couple years ago one of the ladies owned a gorigous 3 year old filly who is going to be a grand prix jumper for sure. Anyway her little mare cleared a 6" fence with 2" deep 5" across mud in front of it. No one knows how, just that the horse ended up on the other side of the fence. I have been dieing to tell her!!!

Actually I routinely got in trouble for telling owners things like: your horse kicked her stall door and got her hoof stuck so watch to see she's not a little soar! Or, your horse was kicked by horse x in the paddock today, make sure there is no swelling when you're done riding.

Facts of life with horses, accidents happen! OWN UP!

[mvp]

It sounds like you BO is a minimalist-- minimal leading, minimal communication, minimal work for the money, willing to piss off the boarder with the minimum bill.

If that's you, just know that this will continue and sooner or later your horse's number will come up. Then you have no one to blame but yourself since you were "warned" but this incident. You can't blame or change a BO with this business plan. It seems to 'work' for the most part. That it doesn't work for you might be beside the BO's point.

Is there, in fact, another barn you'd like to check out? If so, quietly do that. Make arrangements, give your 30 days and leave on decent terms. I might tell the filly's owner what you were told about what happened. The young horse seems a sitting duck to me.

[Woodland]

How long have you been there?

Has the standard of care and handling changed or is it as it has always been since you arrived?

How do you know she has not told the filly's owner? Has she asked you or Lisa to not talk about it?

The gate and hook to the stall you rent for your horse is smashed, is your horse OK? What do you think happened to that?

What condition are the horses in? Has that changed? Do they seem unhappy or unhealthy?

[Iropeum]

Urg! It drives me crazy when BOs won't own up to things that happen on their property!

I know owners get upset when accidents happen & some won't understand, but the vast majority are mature enough that when you come out and tell them what really happened they are going to deal with it just fine. It's especially bad when the horse doesn't get the proper medical treatment because "no one knows" now the injury/illness started.

Working at a barn a couple years ago one of the ladies owned a gorigous 3 year old filly who is going to be a grand prix jumper for sure. Anyway her little mare cleared a 6" fence with 2" deep 5" across mud in front of it. No one knows how, just that the horse ended up on the other side of the fence. I have been dieing to tell her!!!

Actually I routinely got in trouble for telling owners things like: your horse kicked her stall door and got her hoof stuck so watch to see she's not a little soar! Or, your horse was kicked by horse x in the paddock today, make sure there is no swelling when you're done riding.

Facts of life with horses, accidents happen! OWN UP!

Its very irritating to me. I would think that MOST horse owners understand that even if you put a horse in a rubber room, somthing can and will happen! lol! But at least give the owner a chance to get the horse seen by the vet to make sure. Keeping it from the owners is wrong in my book. Whats even more irritating is that this incident was to be kept from me. why? I have a couple theories.

[shakeytails]

I think the filly's owner should have been told about the incident. I would want to know if it were my baby, but chances are I wouldn't have called the vet. But, the incident is really none of your business.

As far as not leading individual horses in, well, that's how they do it there. You said it was basically a private farm, so the owner is going to do things her way. I worked on a farm once that let the whole herd in and out at once (on a concrete floor), it was quick and easy and never had any injuries. It may seem lazy to you but you're not doing the work every day.

I have a private farm. I do things my way. If I had boarders, I would still do things my way. For example I leave halters on for turnout. Sorry, but I'm not going to take your horse's halter off just because you want me to. Get cheap leather or breakaway halters like I have if you're that concerned- or simply find a new barn. If you're unhappy with the situation, it's probably better to find new accomodations rather than complain about stuff that isn't going to change.

[Ibex]

I moved my youngster from a situation like that. Things like the trainer and I wondering why she was NQR, and the BO commenting... "oh yeah, she kind of skidded in the aisle and did the splits during turnout last week"... :eek:

Turnout buddies constantly being swapped around so a lot of horse - politics etc.

[itsnotme2]

Whats even more irritating is that this incident was to be kept from me. why? I have a couple theories.

Why is/was it any of your business anyway? Why does it irritate you that you weren't told about someone else's horse getting hurt? It really doesn't have anything to do with you.

[Iropeum]

How long have you been there?

Has the standard of care and handling changed or is it as it has always been since you arrived?

How do you know she has not told the filly's owner? Has she asked you or Lisa to not talk about it?

The gate and hook to the stall you rent for your horse is smashed, is your horse OK? What do you think happened to that?

What condition are the horses in? Has that changed? Do they seem unhappy or unhealthy?

Lets see
I have been there for about 5 months
It appears the standard of care is good. meaning horses are feed, watered (although I am a stickler and like to clean my buckets weekly) I wouldnt say its outstanding care, but basics are covered. Stalls aren't cleaned regularly, I just do my own now. not how I would keep my place, but you know.

I know she wasn't told about the incident because I was sitting there when she asked about the gash on the back. They blew off the question. Later on, the owner was told a different story, downplayed extremely. I heard the conversation. and yes, lisa was told not to discuss it with me or anyone. lisa doesnt want to lose her spot in the barn either.

Horses seem happy, some appear a little underweight and not at peak condition, but nothing majorly wrong with any of them.

[Jsalem]

You need to stay out of the Barn Owner's business. What IS your business is the care and condition of your personal horse. If you don't feel comfortable at the barn, then you need to leave. You will quickly find yourself persona non grata at any barn in the area if you make trouble like it sounds like you want to. It is not your business to report "incidents" to the other owners- especially things that you "just heard about".

As for ME and my business- my owners pay me to take care of their horses. It is sometimes necessary to switch turnout groups and make day to day decisions about whether to turn out in the weather, etc. Things happen with these animals. Certainly, if there is an injury, I notify the owner. But I don't bother my owners with unneccesary details. They trust my judgement. If they don't, they go somewhere else.

If you don't trust the folks that are taking care of horse, you need to leave. But other than that, you need to MYOB.

[Iropeum]

Why is/was it any of your business anyway? Why does it irritate you that you weren't told about someone else's horse getting hurt? It really doesn't have anything to do with you.

Its not my business, you are right, but I was told about it, then was told I cannot let the victims owner know. Thats what irritated me. I honestly wish I wasn't in the know. Now I am involved, and have to think what if it was my animal?

[ybiaw]

You need to stay out of the Barn Owner's business. What IS your business is the care and condition of your personal horse. If you don't feel comfortable at the barn, then you need to leave. You will quickly find yourself persona non grata at any barn in the area if you make trouble like it sounds like you want to. It is not your business to report "incidents" to the other owners- especially things that you "just heard about".

As for ME and my business- my owners pay me to take care of their horses. It is sometimes necessary to switch turnout groups and make day to day decisions about whether to turn out in the weather, etc. Things happen with these animals. Certainly, if there is an injury, I notify the owner. But I don't bother my owners with unneccesary details. They trust my judgement. If they don't, they go somewhere else.

If you don't trust the folks that are taking care of horse, you need to leave. But other than that, you need to MYOB.

A+ :yes:

[Iropeum]

You need to stay out of the Barn Owner's business. What IS your business is the care and condition of your personal horse. If you don't feel comfortable at the barn, then you need to leave. You will quickly find yourself persona non grata at any barn in the area if you make trouble like it sounds like you want to. It is not your business to report "incidents" to the other owners- especially things that you "just heard about".

As for ME and my business- my owners pay me to take care of their horses. It is sometimes necessary to switch turnout groups and make day to day decisions about whether to turn out in the weather, etc. Things happen with these animals. Certainly, if there is an injury, I notify the owner. But I don't bother my owners with unneccesary details. They trust my judgement. If they don't, they go somewhere else.

If you don't trust the folks that are taking care of horse, you need to leave. But other than that, you need to MYOB.

I do not want to start trouble. I just think its highly irresponsible of the BO not to inform her boarders of incidents like this. I am looking for somewhere else to go with my guys pronto. Beleive me, I try to keep to myself as much as possible and stay under the radar. But I rely on the BO to take care of my animals for me and keep me in the know of what happens with them. I pay her for that. Shes not doing me any favors. With this particular incident, it should have been made known what happened. Not downplayed as it was, now the whole barn knows what happened, even the neighbors who saw what was going on, everyone, EXCEPT the horses owner. I am not saying anything to anyone out there, not my place to do so.

[Iropeum]

I think the filly's owner should have been told about the incident. I would want to know if it were my baby, but chances are I wouldn't have called the vet. But, the incident is really none of your business.

As far as not leading individual horses in, well, that's how they do it there. You said it was basically a private farm, so the owner is going to do things her way. I worked on a farm once that let the whole herd in and out at once (on a concrete floor), it was quick and easy and never had any injuries. It may seem lazy to you but you're not doing the work every day.

I have a private farm. I do things my way. If I had boarders, I would still do things my way. For example I leave halters on for turnout. Sorry, but I'm not going to take your horse's halter off just because you want me to. Get cheap leather or breakaway halters like I have if you're that concerned- or simply find a new barn. If you're unhappy with the situation, it's probably better to find new accomodations rather than complain about stuff that isn't going to change.

I agree. I know its impossible to please everyone. I don't like it, I will leave.

[Jsalem]

A "HUGE" incident happened that left no marks on the horses. One would assume that the staff inspected the horses and found no injuries. According to you, the vet should have been called anyway? Perhaps these owners would prefer not to call the vet unless there was an injury. That's really what the BM is for. Not your call.

You need to find a barn with the kind of care that you want. I'm sure you can find a place that will call the vet for you anytime there is a "HUGE" incident with your horse. Good decision to leave it alone at your current barn.

[Iropeum]

A "HUGE" incident happened that left no marks on the horses. One would assume that the staff inspected the horses and found no injuries. According to you, the vet should have been called anyway? Perhaps these owners would prefer not to call the vet unless there was an injury. That's really what the BM is for. Not your call.

You need to find a barn with the kind of care that you want. I'm sure you can find a place that will call the vet for you anytime there is a "HUGE" incident with your horse. Good decision to leave it alone at your current barn.

No need to get sarcastic here. I am not going to disclose the incident again for obvious reasons. You are just going to have to take my word for it that it was a very BIG deal what happened, external damage was minimal a few marks that the owner picked up on, I was more concerned with internal damage that could have been done.:) I suppose in the end it not my business, my point is, is that if something happens to one of my horses, lets say choke, getting cast, getting hung up on something, I want to know about it, even if there aren't any marks or blood and guts, I still have the RIGHT to know and IMO its the BOs responsibilty to tell me, if she didnt tell this owner about what happened, I do not feel she would tell me either.

[Lori B]

Jsalem, I have no idea what you are thinking.

If any of the incident(s) told to the OP happened, and were not passed along to the owner as a simple courtesy, I would have to expect as an owner that the same failure to communicate with owners was a matter of policy and practice for the barn owner. And I would be gone.

The OP is simply saying, "If it was my horse, I'd want to know if horsey was involved in this big tussle with other horses, if for no other reason than to check horsey over myself to confirm that a vet call is not needed." This isn't busybody, it's wanting to have enough information to be a responsible owner.

Trusting your barn management to inform you of any potential injury is a cornerstone of being able to board someplace. Do I check my horse over pretty thoroughly every time I'm at the barn? Yes, but it helps me sleep at night knowing that I don't have to wonder too much about what I don't hear about.

Good grief, Jsalem.

[Jsalem]

Without knowing the incident, it's hard to say whether I agree with you or not. I think your thread title was pretty strong- unethical & irresponsible. Maybe, maybe not. But without you being there, I think you need to cool the judgment.

Here is something that happened to a student of mine: she was boarding at a boarding barn that happened to be near my home. I was driving down the road (pretty busy road) one day and see several horses, including the student's horse, galloping down the blacktop away from the barn. I actually caught my student's horse and led it (with my belt) back home. The BM led the others. The BM didn't say anything to my student. I did, because I thought it was my business as the trainer. I recommeded that she move the horse because I thought there was a pretty serious safety issue.

So I understand your concern, I just caution you to be careful.

[BuddyRoo]

JSalem--as a BO/trainer yourself, I'm sure you do a great job and have good judgment. I have boarded with someone who I trusted implicitly. No matter WHAT happened (or whether or not she remembered to tell me) I had complete confidence that it would be handled just as I'd want.

Unfortunately, not all BO's or barn staff have such experience, attention to detail, and good judgment.

Example: I once boarded somewhere where I was typically the only one around on weekends. For whatever reason, BO allowed one lady to drop her two kids off--one did chores, the other just goofed off. One day, I was in the barn working with my horses when I heard a commotion. Went outside and youngest kid had taken a mare and young foal out of their paddock and was chasing the foal around with a rope. Foal ran into something and was bleeding pretty badly. As the only adult there, I called the owners AND talked to kid's parents...handled the situation, etc. BO was pissed that I called the owners. Well seriously. What the hell was I supposed to do? LEt this little filly with a huge gash just bleed out and keep my mouth shut?

Some people just cannot or will not do the right thing and cannot be trusted to have good judgment. Many folks board at places with less than stellar care because they're making the best of the situation...on wait lists...new to the area and don't know better...whatever. But they're not all terrific.

In the OP, it was pretty evident to me that BO was trying to "hide" the problem which may well could've set up a situation where one of the horses had major internal injuries. (OP is modified now) Why is it the OP's business? Because if she sees others being treated that way, it's probably just a matter of time until the same happens to her.

I'd get out too...

And for those BO's who ARE on top of things and DO have good judgment--thank you. It sure is nice to not have to worry.

[Iropeum]

Yikes, seeing horses running down the roadway would be a very large incident! So, did the BM let the other owners know what happened as well?
Even though there was no obvious signs of trauma to the horses?
What happened at this farm is comparable, if not more extreme.


I wasn't there and honestly I am glad I wasn't. The owner of the aggresor told me what happened. She was seeking advice on what to do.

[mvp]

The fate of the filly is not the OP's business.

But really, a month old baby mangled by a full size horse?

That's no match. I think the BO, filly and owner got very lucky this time.

I couldn't imagine leaving over this (in part) and not explaining my concern to the person who owned the baby and is ultimately responsible for her well being.

[Iropeum]

Huge Kudos go out to the good BM/BOs out there. I know they exist.

I had a great one, am leaning getting back to her. It'll be worth the extra cost. First night my horse was at her farm he stupidly ran thru the fence in the pasture and cut himself up. Bleeding to death? Not even close. Just had some marks and some swelling. She called me at 11:30p.m. to tell me what happend and I was so thankful she did. I didnt go out till morning and she had her vet there seeing other horses, look at the cuts to make sure everything was ok. which it was.

[Extreme Chaos]

Why is/was it any of your business anyway? Why does it irritate you that you weren't told about someone else's horse getting hurt? It really doesn't have anything to do with you.

Because, if it's happening to other people, it has probably happened to OP (she just doesn't know it yet).
I always keep an eye out as to how the other horses are treated in a barn. If it's happening to one horse, you can bet it's happening to the other horses.
I was at one barn where the BO tried to hide a colic from the owner. BO treated the horse herself and never told the owner. I left shortly after!:eek:
So Yes, it is the OP's business.

[Equibrit]

A GOOD horseperson would not let the situation arise.

[MsM]

When I moved my horse to my current boarding barn I made it very clear to the BO/BM that I wanted to be told of any issues beyond routine scrapes. She has been great about honoring that.
At the first bard where he was boarded I had a very bad experience. Through a series of poor judgements and actions, my horse gained acess to a bag of grain overnight. When he was found the next day, the clueless BO asked an equally clueless boarder what to do :rolleyes: They decided that he looked okay and they turned the horse with a grain overload out on pasture and did not call me :mad: I did not find out until I arrived that afternoon and happened to see a note left for the barn help! My horse developed endotoxemia and was extremely ill for eight days. This likely could have been prevented if I had been called and the vet had been out earlier to tube with oil and charcoal.
So being informed of any "incidents" has become a big issue for me!

[Jsalem]

Yikes, seeing horses running down the roadway would be a very large incident! So, did the BM let the other owners know what happened as well?
Even though there was no obvious signs of trauma to the horses?

I only spoke with my student because I felt that it was my business. The others, not my business.

I guess if I had an owner that wanted to be informed of "every incident" I would honor that. I don't think my owners want to be bothered unless I feel that it's significant. I really couldn't do my job if every owner in my program needed to be that involved. I couldn't get anything else done.

The question in this case is how significant this issue was. Our OP is only hearing hearsay. I still think she should MHOB, but move if she doesn't feel comfortable with the care.

[Parker_Rider]

Get out now. You never know when it will escalate and a horse will be put in his stall with blood all over his leg and no one will tell the owner and he'll be stiff/arthritic/injured for life because the owner won't see the horse until the next day to call the vet. That happened to my friend's gelding at one place and it had happened after little incidents like you said. If they're careless about little things now (a young filly out with a big horse? who does that?!), they will be careless about big things later.

ETA: trust your gut. there's a reason that those dopamine neurons are sending you fearful/mistrust signals...
("How We Decide" jonah lehrer.. reasons why intuition works :) from the book club director.)

[fivehorses]

Jsalem, I am mostly concerned that you change turn outs, and in my opinion that is setting up an accident waiting to happen.

I think you came down harshly on the op. She has been put in a tough position knowing something about someone else's horse.

I agree there are some barn owners and managers who are great, and there are others who are horrible.
I have been in both scenarios. Last horse I sent out to training, was in a fantastic place where I was totally comfortable. Before that, the horror stories I could tell.

[Jsalem]

If it's horrible, she needs to get out. No need to burn bridges or cause trouble.

Turnouts are changed everytime a new horse comes into the barn. That happens frequently in a barn like mine when you have clients outgrowing ponies, buying second horses, etc. It also happens when a group inexplicably goes sour. I had a pony come up with a big leg and we weren't sure why. After a couple of weeks of layup, then individual turnout, we put her back in her regular turnout. An "incident" occurred. She's now on individual turnout for good.

[BadReputation]

This sort of incident happened to me. The BO's horse beat the living daylights out of my little mare for no apparent reason and my mare was pretty badly injured. However, I got a call from the BO as she was cold hosing my horses leg and having someone call the vet which is exactly how is should be. If the same horses keep having issues with each other more than just the regular playing they should be separated so it doesn't escalate to a major injury and the BO should be on top of that along with keeping the owner informed of anything going on with their horse. I would leave asap if I were you.

[TikiSoo]

When I moved my horse to my current boarding barn I made it very clear to the BO/BM that I wanted to be told of any issues beyond routine scrapes.

And that's the issue....some people want to know while other boarders couldn't care less.

When I moved into my current barn I asked them to contact me whenever my horse was injured and might need a vet. If minor, I'd see the problem (I visit every other day) and treat it myself. If for any reason they couldn't reach me, I trust their judgement and gave permission for them to call the vet if needed.

Yesterday I pulled a hard stalk of hay from my horse's pasturemate's chest. This "spear" had punctured his skin on it's way in, and pierced it's way out, looking like a modern "barbell" piercing. I removed it & cleaned the area because I know the horse's owner has nothing to do with the horse but mail a check in every month. Some owners just don't care about injuries or incidents.

If a fence broke and my horse got loose, I wouldn't expect my BO to tell me. S**t happens. As long as my horse is ok, that's all I care about.

My BO know their boarders well enough to judge the situation and know when to call and when not to bother. And it's up to the boarder to clarify that.