WWYD?

[altermeup]

I'm going to give as little detail as possible so I don't reveal my identity or the identity of others.

I'm a rider for an owner who has a horse in training at stable. I get paid to take lessons at stable twice a week and to ride two more times a week. I also get paid a large sum to show said horse. Sounds easy enough. Owner paid for all necessary memberships for me to be able to show horse.

Within the first week, I regretted taking the job. Trainer believes that the horses should listen to your spur, no matter how much you're pulling on their mouths. When I ride, 3 year old horse has a double twisted wire snaffle, draw reins, and large western spurs with points. Trainer tells me to pull more on the reins, if the horse is pulling, I'm not pulling hard enough. And I need to spur every other stride.

I've seen horses at this barn come from 'training' with their mouths bleeding and spur marks on their sides. And of course when they prepare for a show, they relax on the 'training' so there are no marks.

Owner is trying to sell said horse, and wants trainer to help them buy a new horse. I think the trainer will steer them away from buying a more finished horse and have them buy a project, to keep in training of course. Owner is very naive, and I'm afraid to bring up to them that trainer may just be trying to keep business in their barn. A horse in training rakes in more money than a horse just boarding.

I can't stand these training methods, but owner has already paid my memberships and everything. We've done one show and trainer showed that he's definitely stringing owner along. Trainer ignored owner and myself, and proceeded to help others that don't pay his salary. Owner is being walked all over.

I want to tell owner that I can't deal with these methods. I don't want to do this anymore, but I need the money and they've already put a ton of money into me.

Do I talk to them about the fact I'm uncomfortable with the training? Do I just keep plugging along and hope the horse sells? Or do I quit and reimburse for membership fees already paid?

Owner is really nice, and I'm sure they don't know any better. They aren't there when trainer is riding, but they know the bits, spurs, and draw reins are used. Quite honestly, the horse has been there for a very, very long time for training and can't even canter off correctly. Owner pays nearly 1k a month, horse has been there over half a year. Even I could get a horse to canter off on the correct lead in that time. Heck, in that time for that money I'd expect horse to be able to do flying changes. But horse can barely keep an even pace.

This frustrates me as a person. I don't know if it's my place to say what I think to owner.

What would you do if you were in my position?

[caradino]

I'm going to give as little detail as possible so I don't reveal my identity or the identity of others.

I'm a rider for an owner who has a horse in training at stable. I get paid to take lessons at stable twice a week and to ride two more times a week. I also get paid a large sum to show said horse. Sounds easy enough. Owner paid for all necessary memberships for me to be able to show horse.

Within the first week, I regretted taking the job. Trainer believes that the horses should listen to your spur, no matter how much you're pulling on their mouths. When I ride, 3 year old horse has a double twisted wire snaffle, draw reins, and large western spurs with points. Trainer tells me to pull more on the reins, if the horse is pulling, I'm not pulling hard enough. And I need to spur every other stride.

I've seen horses at this barn come from 'training' with their mouths bleeding and spur marks on their sides. And of course when they prepare for a show, they relax on the 'training' so there are no marks.

Owner is trying to sell said horse, and wants trainer to help them buy a new horse. I think the trainer will steer them away from buying a more finished horse and have them buy a project, to keep in training of course. Owner is very naive, and I'm afraid to bring up to them that trainer may just be trying to keep business in their barn. A horse in training rakes in more money than a horse just boarding.

I can't stand these training methods, but owner has already paid my memberships and everything. We've done one show and trainer showed that he's definitely stringing owner along. Trainer ignored owner and myself, and proceeded to help others that don't pay his salary. Owner is being walked all over.

I want to tell owner that I can't deal with these methods. I don't want to do this anymore, but I need the money and they've already put a ton of money into me.

Do I talk to them about the fact I'm uncomfortable with the training? Do I just keep plugging along and hope the horse sells? Or do I quit and reimburse for membership fees already paid?

Owner is really nice, and I'm sure they don't know any better. They aren't there when trainer is riding, but they know the bits, spurs, and draw reins are used. Quite honestly, the horse has been there for a very, very long time for training and can't even canter off correctly. Owner pays nearly 1k a month, horse has been there over half a year. Even I could get a horse to canter off on the correct lead in that time. Heck, in that time for that money I'd expect horse to be able to do flying changes. But horse can barely keep an even pace.

This frustrates me as a person. I don't know if it's my place to say what I think to owner.

What would you do if you were in my position?

quit.

[arabhorse2]

If you stay, you're condoning the abuse.

That's all it boils down to, plain and simple. Everything else is just background noise.

[CatOnLap]

would it be different if you weren't getting paid?
Don't let money tie you to a situation that you do not feel good about.
Ever , anywhere in life.

You could try talking tactfully to the owner before you leave, saying, you aren't able to ride in the way the trainer wants you to because it isn't your style, and if they wanted you to train/ride/show in your own way with a trainer you liked, you would stay on...

[Giddy-up]

Seeing as you are being paid & this now makes you a professional as well--is this the reputation YOU want for yourself??

If you feel guilty about the money they paid for memberships--pay them back for the parts of the membership that apply to you exclusively although keep in mind the horse would have needed a membership regardless who was riding if they wanted to show.

Politely tell them you have tried working with Trainer X, you simply don't agree with their training choices & you will no longer be riding the horse. Did you sign a contract stating you had to ride for them? And don't further explain WHY you don't like Trainer X's methods--you will only look like the bad guy bad mouthing another professional. They are drinking the Kool-Aid & no matter what they are told they won't see it until they want to.

[kellyb]

I would speak to the owner directly and let them know what is going on. Tell them you won't stay if you must continue to ride under that trainer. Don't make it personal, just state the facts about how the horse is being trained. Then the owner has two options - keep you and fire trainer, or you quit and they keep paying trainer.

[ReSomething]

Run away. Leave, quit. Honestly I don't know whether I would be totally honest to owner about why I am going, because your OP sounds so damning and the horse world is so small. I would sever all connection with the barn though - why lesson from this "trainer" now that you have made these conclusions?

[Alagirl]

Is the money worth to feel crummy when you look in the mirror?

If I were you (easier said than done) I'd have a sit down with the owner, tell him/her the reasons you like to hold on to the job and the reason(s) you are forced to quit. Offering to pay some money back is also a nice gesture.

I know many folks don't want to, but I prefer to get things straight. yes, sometimes I get hurt and it takes me a bit to se the truth in what was said, but usually I get over it.

[RedTahoe]

Take pictures of horse with any "training" wounds on it.




Quit.



The End.

[ReSomething]

Whoa. Just re-read the post. You are a RIDER for an OWNER, who pays you to take lessons, ride the horse and show the horse? Sit the owner down and explain why you are leaving this excellent position. Have some suggestions ready for different trainers that the owner might prefer, with references. You may have to sever the relationship with the owner anyway.

What a position to be in. Good luck.

[theoldgreymare]

Trainer believes that the horses should listen to your spur, no matter how much you're pulling on their mouths. When I ride, 3 year old horse has a double twisted wire snaffle, draw reins, and large western spurs with points. Trainer tells me to pull more on the reins, if the horse is pulling, I'm not pulling hard enough. And I need to spur every other stride.

I've seen horses at this barn come from 'training' with their mouths bleeding and spur marks on their sides. And of course when they prepare for a show, they relax on the 'training' so there are no marks.



Trainer is an asshat and not someone a person with a conscience (which you obviously have) should want to associate with. Tell client you think "trainer's" methods constitute abuse (or that you disagree with training methods if you are worried about burning bridges) and you no longer can deal with him/her in good conscience. Perhaps once the owner is made aware of what is really going on, they will move the horse and keep you on as rider/trainer. If owner decides to stay with "trainer", they also fall into the asshat catagory and deserve each other.

[BuddyRoo]

Sticky situation as you say you need the money but you know what you're doing is wrong. It's a moral dilemma. Only it really isn't. You know what you SHOULD do, you're just afraid to do it.

Character. Reputation. These are things you're putting on the line.

Abuse. This is what, by doing nothing, you are condoning.

If you allow the latter to continue you tarnish the previous two.

Were I in your shoes, I'd know that I planned to stop riding the horse under the current circumstances, so I'd not be fearful of getting "fired" by owner. As such, I'd go to the owner and say something to the effect of:

"Owner...this is really awkward for me. I like your horse, this is a great opportunity for me financially and professionally, and I like you. That said, I have some serious concerns about the practices of this trainer. I feel like the things I'm being told to do are abusive to the horse. I would be happy to talk to you in more detail about those things and even help find another trainer and stay on with you if you want. But under these circumstances, I can't ride for you anymore. I just can't participate in the abuse. You have a nice little horse here...I don't want to be party to ruining it."

[altermeup]

Thank you for all of your input.

As a person, I need the money. But I can't sit quiet while I watch a perfectly good horse be ruined. If I had the money the owner was asking, I'd buy the horse.

I'm going to sit down and type what I will say to owner, read it, then give them a call. This is a dream job, minus the trainer. I'll give the owner suggestions of trainers that I know personally aren't abusive.

[mrsbradbury]

Welcome to the world.;)

You are a professional, talk to the owner of the horse who apparently adores you for giving you this opportunity. You owe it to the horse and the owner to be ethical and honest; you have accepted their money, and they have trusted you with the horse.

You need to pull up your britches, tell the owner EXACTLY what is going on, let them know that the horse(s), need to be relocated to a new facility. Seek out someone you trust to help you with the horse, or go it alone and move on.

They will either follow your lead (I suspect they will, or the person who is giving you the lessons would be riding the horse.); or tell you to take a hike. Then you start looking for a new job.

Good luck, and hang in there (emotionally, not with the training).

[lalahartma1]

I would speak to the owner directly and let them know what is going on. Tell them you won't stay if you must continue to ride under that trainer. Don't make it personal, just state the facts about how the horse is being trained. Then the owner has two options - keep you and fire trainer, or you quit and they keep paying trainer.


Yes. It seems pretty simple.

[<3OTTB]

quit, from your description that is abuse. you are the one riding it.

[lcw579]

Thank you for all of your input.

As a person, I need the money. But I can't sit quiet while I watch a perfectly good horse be ruined. If I had the money the owner was asking, I'd buy the horse.

I'm going to sit down and type what I will say to owner, read it, then give them a call. This is a dream job, minus the trainer. I'll give the owner suggestions of trainers that I know personally aren't abusive.


OP sounds like you are making a good, if difficult, decision. Hopefully the owner will listen to you and will do right by the horse. In a perfect world you will even retain the ride!

Let us know how it all turns out. Good luck!

[gloriginger]

When I ride, 3 year old horse has a double twisted wire snaffle, draw reins, and large western spurs with points. Trainer tells me to pull more on the reins, if the horse is pulling, I'm not pulling hard enough. And I need to spur every other stride.

What would you do if you were in my position?


I can't get past the above paragraph.
This horse will be broken down by age 6. How sad.

WWID- I would have let when I saw this get up. Wouldn't have put a foot in the stirrup.

[shelly]

Email the OP to the owner, you stated your concerns eloquently.

[mvp]

Since you are now a pro, can you talk to the trainer, pro to pro?

My script would be pretty direct and blunt, so you might lose the ride. But you seem ready to lose the ride if you speak to the owner anyway. This might be a different option.

I think it goes like this, perhaps mid-lesson: "Wait a sec. This isn't working. I can't do this anymore. If we can't figure out a better way for this horse, I'm done."

If you want to be more tactful and have a better way, ask the guy to give you 30 days alone with this horse as your project. He may think you are trying to steal his client.

Either way, you should not continue riding/showing this horse as you are. You can let the owner know that you are leaving and why. The $ they spent on your showing and membership fees so far are money lost. You don't need to say, so but "too bad." They could have chosen a better training program and, unfortunately, many of us lose money in order to learn.

If anyone asks your advice-- owner or trainer-- or wants to hear what you have to say. If not, it's not your deal. You just have to live with yourself every day, not with their opinion of you. But it's tough to leave a horse in a situation you know is bad. As others have said, welcome to being a pro.

[Lori]

Ugh, I feel for you. Situations like this are exactly why I chose not to go pro. :(

Back in the 80's, I rode for a lady doing the local QH circuit. She kept a 2yo stallion stalled 24/7 (who was understandably a dangerous maniac when you passed the filty stall) and even tried to breed it back to it's dam, the mare I rode.
I think I rode for a couple weeks before the first show we were going to.
She had a palomino gelding that she was training western pleasure and I was to ride the appendix mare in the HUS classes. The night before the show, she tied the geldings head down in the pasture with a head contraption to make him sore. The day of the show, she got all over me for not doing the same with the mare, took both horses to the show while leaving the UNWEANED filly at home TIED. The mare was nervous, anxious and upset the whole day at the show. Lucily, the foal did not kill herself while we were away.
I quit the next day. I just dropped off the schooling bridle and said nothing.
It left such a sour tasted in my mouth that I just lost heart in working horses and ponies for others.

[pines4equines]

Could you seek out another stable where the training is what you'd like? Research the trainer, their techniques and then have a sit down with new trainer and tell them what is going on. Ask if they would be amenable to you being there in the same capacity as previous trainer.

Then when you have an alternate solution available, have a sit down with owners, tell them the problem...honestly without rage and tears. Say I found a new trainer that we can take your horse, train the horse ethically and humanely. Say you will go with horse to the new place in the same capacity as old place.

IF they say yes, then take everything, horse and go. If they say no, then you've done your best. Then you'll have to quit, go to new trainers and try to pick up other clients.

[Giddy-up]

Then you'll have to quit, go to new trainers and try to pick up other clients.

:confused: So after OP finds a new trainer to take her & possibly the horse in, she is supposed to then try to lure away that trainer's clients??

[Extreme Chaos]

Since you are now a pro, can you talk to the trainer, pro to pro?

My script would be pretty direct and blunt, so you might lose the ride. But you seem ready to lose the ride if you speak to the owner anyway. This might be a different option.

I think it goes like this, perhaps mid-lesson: "Wait a sec. This isn't working. I can't do this anymore. If we can't figure out a better way for this horse, I'm done."

If you want to be more tactful and have a better way, ask the guy to give you 30 days alone with this horse as your project. He may think you are trying to steal his client.

Either way, you should not continue riding/showing this horse as you are. You can let the owner know that you are leaving and why. The $ they spent on your showing and membership fees so far are money lost. You don't need to say, so but "too bad." They could have chosen a better training program and, unfortunately, many of us lose money in order to learn.

If anyone asks your advice-- owner or trainer-- or wants to hear what you have to say. If not, it's not your deal. You just have to live with yourself every day, not with their opinion of you. But it's tough to leave a horse in a situation you know is bad. As others have said, welcome to being a pro.

I agree, talk to the trainer in the most tactful way possible.
If you are on the verge of quiting, you have nothing to lose.

[HiddenStars826]

I'm sorry you've been put into this position. I was at a reining show this past weekend, and while watching some of the warmups (that weren't in the warmup ring) I had to shake my head. Someone walked by me at one point and stopped a short distance away and I heard her ask her groom to check her horse quickly and make sure he had no blood on his side from her spur. I spent a few years in that world training but never competing, and I realize now that while I'll admit that some of the methods we used weren't pretty at least I didn't have to ask someone to check my horse for blood and I can honestly say that my horses had nothing more than a simple snaffle or curb and never wore a set of draw reins. I learned from my time training and I do look back and wish I knew then what I know now.

The deal sounds great, until the trainer is involved. As much as you don't want to confront the owner of the horse because you need the deal financially, I agree that you need to have a discussion with them. As much as you feel the owner is gonna just go with the trainer, you owe it to all of you to try. If you honestly think the trainer is taking advantage (sounds like it), then the owner, no matter how naive, needs to be told. To put it bluntly, you work for the OWNER. The owner pays you and I'd assume trusts you (to put that much into you) and I'm sure has asked your opinion about the horse at one time or another. If you do it right, there is a tactful way to discuss what is going on and give your opinions.

I'd approach them very non-confrontationally. Don't come at them like you are looking to bash their choices or the trainer. I'd ask them what they want accomplished with this horse. What do they expect you to accomplish with the horse (why are you riding/showing him), what are their goals for him? I'd then agree that the goals sound good, however you feel that there are some issues that will prevent you from accomplishing those goals, or you aren't comfortable with the methods used to accomplish them. Tell them that you personally feel that the horse is not as far in his training as he should be at this point (can't get leads), and then suggest perhaps a different solution to that problem (if this is done instead then maybe it will help, but trainer will only do it this way), horse is having issues with the bit and cannot understand the concept of setting his head while moving (which is what it sounds like the trainer is trying to do), but perhaps if we take a step back and work him with a milder bit or no spurs it will work better, etc etc. Present your problems, and be ready with a solution for them. Then state that you appreciate the opportunity you've been given with the horse, and really would like to continue, but that you feel it is not helping and instead ruining the horse to keep going with these particular methods of training. Tell owner that you'd gladly continue on working with horse and them (I'm assuming you would?) if only there was a way to either have the horse with a different trainer ("because I disagree with this one's philosophies") or with just you as a trainer. Offer to help them search for a new trainer if they'd like (since you would be the one riding with the trainer).
Don't get frustrated or mad during the conversation, even if the owner doesn't agree with you. Just stay calm and professional, and make it known that you truly are trying to work for the horse's best interests as well as the owner's. If they say no, they want to continue working with the current trainer, then at that point I would thank them for the opportunity they gave you but that it just isn't going to work out for you, and you wish them the best of luck in the future with that horse and their new one. And perhaps offer that if anything changes and they leave the current trainer and would still like your help in the future, that you'd be open to the possibility.

Some people are more open to suggestion than you'd think, especially when you approach them with their and their horse's best interests in mind.

[altermeup]

I talked to the owner via phone.

I said that I'm enjoying riding horse, and that he has a ton of potential. But I don't agree with the training horse is recieving from trainer. When in lessons, I was asked to do things I didn't agree with.

Owner said this is the last month horse will be in training with this trainer, then horse will be boarded at this barn with me and only me riding. And that during this last month, trainer will only be doing ground work with horse while I do the rest. When May is over, trainer will not be touching horse, nor will trainers workers except to clean the stall and feed.

Thank you all for your input, owner had no idea and they trust me as a friend and rider. Owner is very sweet, just led the wrong way because of the well known trainer.

[Alagirl]

I talked to the owner via phone.

I said that I'm enjoying riding horse, and that he has a ton of potential. But I don't agree with the training horse is recieving from trainer. When in lessons, I was asked to do things I didn't agree with.

Owner said this is the last month horse will be in training with this trainer, then horse will be boarded at this barn with me and only me riding. And that during this last month, trainer will only be doing ground work with horse while I do the rest. When May is over, trainer will not be touching horse, nor will trainers workers except to clean the stall and feed.

Thank you all for your input, owner had no idea and they trust me as a friend and rider. Owner is very sweet, just led the wrong way because of the well known trainer.


Sounds, good. (just mind your Ps and Qs around the trainer! I bet those last 2 weeks will be so much fun there!)

[pines4equines]

Quote: Originally Posted by pines4equines View Post
Then you'll have to quit, go to new trainers and try to pick up other clients.

GiddyUp said: "So after OP finds a new trainer to take her & possibly the horse in, she is supposed to then try to lure away that trainer's clients??"

No, no...When at the new trainers, pick up other clients that you can ride that you can bring to trainers. Or possibly assist trainer in show rides not stealing additional clients unless clients from old trainer are too looking to leave as well.

[Go Fish]

Thank you for all of your input.

As a person, I need the money. But I can't sit quiet while I watch a perfectly good horse be ruined. If I had the money the owner was asking, I'd buy the horse.

I'm going to sit down and type what I will say to owner, read it, then give them a call. This is a dream job, minus the trainer. I'll give the owner suggestions of trainers that I know personally aren't abusive.

Can you ride this horse when the trainer isn't around?

[altermeup]

Situation changed. Owner talked to trainer and owner likes how horse is going.. so I quit.

Owner said she'll give a great reference if I put them down. Now I'm jobless, but I stood for what I believe. Owner is an asshat for believeing winning is more important than proper training.

[BuddyRoo]

I'm really sorry. I would not respond any further...give owner some time. Maybe you have planted a seed here and owner will wise up sooner rather than later.

If doing the right thing were easy, everyone would do it. But on the upside, you stood for what you believed and YOU won't be perpetuating what sounds to me like some shady at best, abusive at worst, techniques.

You did what you could. Horses first.

Thank you for trying. <--the horse snagged my brain waves for a moment and insisted that I say that.

[twofatponies]

Situation changed. Owner talked to trainer and owner likes how horse is going.. so I quit.

Owner said she'll give a great reference if I put them down. Now I'm jobless, but I stood for what I believe. Owner is an asshat for believeing winning is more important than proper training.

I think you did the right thing. Don't badmouth the owner or the old trainer, or you'll just give yourself a bad name. If someone asks you for an opinion about either, and it's a person counting on your honest advice (not just a gossip session), you can say you didn't agree with his methods or how his horses were turning out, etc. but it's often a small world in a given discipline. You'll be more respected in the long run for being true to yourself but also gracious and pleasant.

I'm glad you had the courage to talk to the owner honestly! Fingers crossed for a better job to come your way soon.

[Gunnar]

Situation changed. Owner talked to trainer and owner likes how horse is going.. so I quit.

Owner said she'll give a great reference if I put them down. Now I'm jobless, but I stood for what I believe. Owner is an asshat for believeing winning is more important than proper training.
Sorry! Thanks for being there for the horse! :sadsmile:

[Alagirl]

Situation changed. Owner talked to trainer and owner likes how horse is going.. so I quit.

Owner said she'll give a great reference if I put them down. Now I'm jobless, but I stood for what I believe. Owner is an asshat for believeing winning is more important than proper training.

Oh crap! :no:

But that is integrity: Honor that bites us in the butt!
I hope, that in the long run you will come out on top! Sure blows though.

[altermeup]

Owner is a great person, I just wish they'd think about the horse instead of winning. I'm sticking to cleaning stalls and just exercising horses, no more showing.

[RedMare01]

Good for you for sticking up for what you believe in; but why isn't/wasn't the trainer the one showing the horse? For that kind of money, she should be the one showing...the owner shouldn't have to pay someone else. I hope the owner gets a clue sooner rather than later, especially for the horse :(.

Caitlin

[altermeup]

Trainer would have to show in pro, I could show in open. Something like that, or trainer was showing their own horse.

[mvp]

Do what you know is right in the saddle and with people.

Give these owners time. It sounds like they don't know enough to make a decision on their own and really want some hand holding. Whoever does that best/last seems to win the round. They did flip flop quickly, no?

It sucks for the horse (the pawn in this game), but you have done what pros do: Did what you knew to do for the horse. gave them you opinion and let them choose. I think you did plant a seed. When the horse stops performing for the rougher trainer, perhaps they will be back.

Sorry you lost so much while saving your integrity.

[ellebeaux]

Do you feel like you did the right thing? From what you've written, I think you did. Other opportunities will turn up and I think this will turn out to be a good thing.

Money's money, but having the courage to be true to yourself is priceless!

[je.suis]

What a perfect time to educate the owner. Does the owner sit in on training ? Is there another barn where you could take the owner to watch a real training session? Let the owner see that drawing blood is not the accepted method of horse training, unless you want a scared,nasty animal. The ball is in your court and you have an opportunity to help the owner, the horse and yourself. Let's see what road you choose.

[Camstock]

You did a brave thing.

The old trainer is a dinosaur. Abuse always outs itself. Karma is ubiquitous and unavoidable.

I know all showing seems bad right now, but when you have an established reputation, which will happen more quickly than you think if you continue to make choices in the horse's best interest, the clients and horses will come. Take that green horse and showstring owner that will show up next week, and do it right. People will notice and bigger things will follow. The trick is to enjoy the journey and listen to internal validation cues. Hear the still small voice. External validation follows. When people start sending you horses, you can advocate for the horses in your program everyday, show that kindness is the way, and, not coincidently, do very well at shows. It isn't showing that sucks. It is being in a position to have to follow the directions from a$$hats that sucks. Work to get in the position of decision-making for the horses so that you can be a positive example to that kid on the rail 5 years from now, watching and wishing she was you.