The Mantra of the BUA - spinoff from Flat Feet

[irishcas]

Hi All:

I didn't want to derail the OP's thread any further than it's already gone.

I was reading the usual bunk being spouted by BTR, who has drunk and is swimming in the koolaid :) I'd like to discuss some of the tenets of the BUA. I was a former BUAite so feel like I have an understanding. I like to think I was never as rabid as BTR but who knows. Maybe this will help people understand where it comes from (although her cult like behavior always takes it to a new limit) and how to combat it.

Here is what I was taught in the beginning of my barefoot adventures.

1. All horses can go barefoot.
2. All horses can/could have perfect feet if they just got the right diet/right trim
3. Genetics have nothing to do with it
4. You have to toughen up your horses feet by walking/riding over rocks
5. You have to toughen up your horses feet by riding in boots/pads
6. Concavity is the end all be all of hoof health
7. Shoes are evil
8. Nails are evil, nails cause infections in the foot.
9. Boots are the alternative to shoes.

So here is my interpretation of the above list.

#1, Well yeah it can be true. Some horses can go barefoot over all terrain and some can go barefoot doing any job. But the majority need some kind of protection to get thru the day. Some are not sound no matter what and as long as you don't mind a horse short striding or gimping the pasture than you can get the that statement to fit.

#2 Hmmm absolutely not true, what is "The Perfect Hoof" anyway. Feet differ based on breed, terrain, environment... A species specific diet is important, but nothing trumps exercise and movement. Most people should be on the up and up on diet these days, thanks to the work of Katy Watts, Dr. Kellon and those like her.

#3 Genetics absolutely play a role. I used to spout this little gem to owners all the time, then about 5/6 years ago I went to a farm. Woman had a Stallion/Mare that she bred 4 times, 3 of the sons were still on the farm all of varying ages. Sire/Dam were in their 20's and the sons ranged down from there. They all had the same feet, all had the same crooked front foot. Soles looked exactly the same, two had the same soundness issues, one was fine over all terrain. Hmmmm that got me thinking. Since then I've seen many sister, brother mother/son, mother/daughter and father combos to show me that absolutely "Hullllooo, just like humans" genetics play a huge role in foot health.

#4 This is absolutely and completely utter BS. Yes keeping your horse in sand or pea gravel helps the feet. But not all horses, no matter what you do some horses feet are not going to be sound without protection. Forcing your horse to walk over gravel barefoot is cruel. One idiot on another list I'm on talked about a Forced March thru the desert in the beginning it was so hard on his horse, the horse gimped and limped but gosh darnnit they persevered. I wish I could get my hands on that As*hat! But I digress.

#5 This is also BS, yes you can get healthier feet using boots/pads, if the horse can do so. Boots/Pads allow the foot to function in a more healthy manner which can create a thicker sole/healthier DC. But that is if the boots are the right option for the horse. Also Boots create a toe extension in almost all horses. I'm finding more and more that many boots create muscle soreness. Something I never recognized before. Boots aren't the magic cure either!

#6 No it ain't :) Some horses have really thick soles without ever having concavity. Another posted correctly pointed out that the sole mirrors the coffin bone. Not all coffin bones are alike, just like our feet, they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

#7 Bull dooky - A rim shoe is not conducive to most horses hoof health, but a good shoeing package can make all the difference in the world. Along with a good trim.

#8 Bull crappy - Complete and utter BS

#9 Yes in some cases boots can be an alternative, but not always. Boots are a total PITA for almost all horses. The 2 biggest designers of boots BOTH live in Arizona. Both used Arabs/Endurance horses are the models for the feet and used Arabs/Endurance riders for testing purposes. The boots suck for many horses.

I live in New York, wet wet wet. I've tried every boot on the market and I'm done with them. I'll help my clients fit the boots but I will no longer stock or sell them. I don't know what the answer is :( What do the people do who have no competent hoofcare pro's in their area? They like bare, their horses only need protection for riding, don't necessarily need shoes. If they did, who do they get to put them on? Frustrating. Boots suck thats all I know.

Anyway, those are some thoughts based on BTR's and everyones response to her. I don't think there is anyway to get her to SHUT UP, but I guess we could collectively ignore her. But that is hard to do :) I couldn't do it with the Strasserite Troll that used to post here all the time, it wasn't in me to let her run rampant giving out crappy advice.

Just thought I'd post the list above and my thoughts on it. Should make for some interesting conversations :)

Have Fun

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[matryoshka]

What happens to change one's mind is experience, trying everything to help a horse that just needs more than a trim and boots can provide, and admitting to failure. I was lucky enough to see this before I ever became a trimmer, and so never joined the ranks of the "barefoot or bust" crowd. I don't like the label "BUA," so I don't use it.

And I have to say, I learned the tenets in your above post from reading here at COTH. Other than that, I've only run into one or two rabid trimmers who foamed at the mouth at the mention of shoes and nails. In this case, "rabid" is in the ear of the listener, BTW, not in the mind of the speaker. It depends on your perspective.

Glad you've come around. And FWIW, you've sounded a bit foam-at-the-mouth to me in the past. Again, my ear.

[marta]

i agree it's the experience but also a presence of an open mind and independent thinking.

i was introduced to kim early on in my barefoot journey and i'm forever grateful that she never ceased to ask questions and re-evaluate her beliefs and opinions. while i never took my mare on a forced march in the desert as the poster kim referred to did, i did, some years ago, try to force my mare to walk on a gravel driveway b/c i was told it would toughen up her feet. i could kick myself for doing that now. thankfully the mare had more brains than i and insisted that the edge of the driveway was the only place she would walk on ;)

[Daydream Believer]

I've mainly learned from two well known trimmers and that "mantra" above is not what I was taught. Perhaps some believe that but I don't and never have. I also find the use of the term BUA highly offensive. I think this post is going to do nothing but start a major catfight and be completely 100% unproductive.

Why do you care if BTR shuts up or not? All this bickering is way more offensive to me than one person posting her ideas..right or wrong. You all just need to move on.

[LMH]

I have never been taught that mantra either-quite the opposite on most of those points.

[irishcas]

I've mainly learned from two well known trimmers and that "mantra" above is not what I was taught. Perhaps some believe that but I don't and never have. I also find the use of the term BUA highly offensive. I think this post is going to do nothing but start a major catfight and be completely 100% unproductive.

Why do you care if BTR shuts up or not? All this bickering is way more offensive to me than one person posting her ideas..right or wrong. You all just need to move on.

Sharon:

I know who one of your teachers was, my good friend Paige Poss. Who I talk to sometimes way too much every day :D It was Paige who started the phrase "All horses can go barefoot, all owners cannot" She told it to Jamie Jackson and he took it as his own and there it went. So believe me I know her mind as well as my own. We were BUA, we just wouldn't always admit it outloud. We swore we would never put shoes on horses feet, we would say publicly that shoes weren't bad, but our attitude and actions were different.

Nails were bad for horses feet, look at all the craptastic feed that were shod, that we took bare and returned to health. You too. It just took us time and learning to realize we were pointing our fingers at the wrong thing. So I feel fully justified and qualified to recognize BUA-ista's.

Paige was good about thinking diet diet diet wasn't always the answer, but that was more cuz she is a lazy git and couldn't be bothered with muzzles and supplements (I say this with utter love). I bought into that for awhile, always trying to figure out how to fix Finn.

It took us awhile to re organize our thinking but we are/have, thanks to the third part of our coven, the ever level headed, recluse Ruth Hamilton. We've come full circle, I have a great book that I turned Ruth on to, she's ahead of me in reading it. She found a quote last week that rang true. Something like "All learning is circular, you can't truly understand what you've learned til you come back to the beginning" We've come back to shoes, but with all the knowledge we have built upon to get there. It makes us exceptional hoofcare providers, as does our willingness to explore and try everything we can to be better. We have never stopped learning and having the magical number of 3 makes it all the more powerful :D

Anyway back to the topic, BUA is an ugly term, I used to hate it too, it made me uncomfortable and it made me angry. Now I realize where those feelings came from. You may not be BUA, you seem "normal", ha as normal as horsewoman can be eh? :)

BTR and others I know are BUA, it's all or nothing and part of the BUA thinking is that they have the answer to everything. BTR doesn't have to shut up, it's just wishful thinking. I wish she'd take my advice (something I didn't do years ago) and be quiet and learn before she gives out such absolutist advice.

This thread is not about a catfight, it's about debunking myth and hype.

Maty, no kidding I sounded fanatical, I just said I did, didn't I? I'm not here pointing fingers completely, I'm also saying I was wrong and I changed. Kinda the point of the whole thread. DUH! :lol: A way to explain where certain people, like BTR are coming from. I'm trying to help her, sorta.


Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[irishcas]

I have never been taught that mantra either-quite the opposite on most of those points.

Marjorie Smith
Strasser
Martha O

Said the first few,

Pete says he can fix just about any horse with boots/pads, Pea Gravel, Diet

I don't know all of what KC teaches, he used to be a farrier so maybe he is more careful. I do know of a KC Lapierre trimmer here in Orange County, NY. He insisted that all his clients put gravel down and make their horses walk on it to "toughen" up their feet. Also have heard KC speak and he suggests that owners walk their horses on pavement 20 minutes a day to fix horses feet. Maybe he has changed that? I'd like to know if he still shoes certain horses?

There are many teachers and you may not want to admit it but all of those points were out there in the barefoot world, from some part or another. Doesn't mean I used all of them, but I do know they exist.

Come on this info is the mantra of the barefoot movement, some for certain camps some for all.

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[JHUshoer20]

Kimmy,
Excellent points you bring up.

The one annoying obsessed with diet individual you mention has already been kicked off several websites as I understand it. Have some patience:winkgrin:

Next phase of learning is the cornucopia of different effects that can be accomplished with shoe design. Of the hundreds of different styles, weights, designs etc there is tons to learn.

Unfortunately on sites like this one we can never get that far because it always inevitably digresses to whether or not they should or should not be shod. It doesn't take a genius to see that this stifles any type of learning and I kinda wish the mods would think about it a bit too.

Having said that you can see where I'm going right? Being stuck on natural BS, or plastic shoes, or any other type or style of shoeing or horseshoe to the exclusion of everything else is every bit as closed minded and self limiting as being a BUA:yes:
George

[grayarabpony]

Kim, actually I wish that you and marta and sketcher would shut up. You guys sound like you're still in jr. high school.

No, I don't agree with everything BTR has to say. But she does have some very good points. I think that makes people more angry than anything else. :lol:

[luvmywalkers]

...
I live in New York, wet wet wet. I've tried every boot on the market and I'm done with them. I'll help my clients fit the boots but I will no longer stock or sell them. I don't know what the answer is :( What do the people do who have no competent hoofcare pro's in their area? They like bare, their horses only need protection for riding, don't necessarily need shoes. If they did, who do they get to put them on? Frustrating. Boots suck thats all I know.
...


Kim, I was forced into finding a solution for 2 of my horses recovering from founder. I found boots to be extremely helpful, even while living in mud just about half of the time, and on concrete the other half. The boots I used had drain slots in them, didn't need specialized fitting and were very easy to put on. They allowed my horses to be turned out in the pastures and move around to their hearts content.

Boots have a place in hoofcare.

[FlashGordon]

I live in New York, wet wet wet. I've tried every boot on the market and I'm done with them. I'll help my clients fit the boots but I will no longer stock or sell them. I don't know what the answer is :( What do the people do who have no competent hoofcare pro's in their area? They like bare, their horses only need protection for riding, don't necessarily need shoes. If they did, who do they get to put them on? Frustrating. Boots suck thats all I know.



Yes, I belong to that group.... "Eh" about boots, not sure yet about going to shoes, but horsey needs something if we are going to ride now that the ground is getting harder and the area we have to ride is bumpy and uneven. I haven't yet tried casting, I am mildly afraid to apply it being a "lay person" myself.

Also ridiculously short on good hoof care pros in our area. Some of you guys should move to WNY, you'd make a bundle.... ;)

[Rick Burten]

I was a former BUAite so feel like I have an understanding.
Vait(sic) a minute, Vait(sic) a minute. Does this mean that you are again a BUAtista? :eek: :D

[Rick Burten]

Boots have a place in hoofcare.
I agree. And so do shoes(in all their iterations), barefoot, and various combinations thereof. As the farriers hereabouts have been saying from the git-go, "It Depends".....:)

[LMH]

Marjorie Smith
Strasser
Martha O

Said the first few,

Pete says he can fix just about any horse with boots/pads, Pea Gravel, Diet

I don't know all of what KC teaches, he used to be a farrier so maybe he is more careful. I do know of a KC Lapierre trimmer here in Orange County, NY. He insisted that all his clients put gravel down and make their horses walk on it to "toughen" up their feet. Also have heard KC speak and he suggests that owners walk their horses on pavement 20 minutes a day to fix horses feet. Maybe he has changed that? I'd like to know if he still shoes certain horses?

There are many teachers and you may not want to admit it but all of those points were out there in the barefoot world, from some part or another. Doesn't mean I used all of them, but I do know they exist.

Come on this info is the mantra of the barefoot movement, some for certain camps some for all.

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member


I don't know why a DAEP would have a horse walking on pea gravel. When I attended KC's workshops, he did not promote pea gravel. I don't know if he does now.

yes KC suggested asphalt walks as a part of a conditioning program BUT KC also was very precise on when that would be safe and when it was not. He NEVER suggested doing anything beyond what the health of the hoof could handle in order to make it healthier.

KC also never pushed the shoes are the devil. He was clear to say that there were cases when it was just wrong to force bare on a horse-if structure was so far gone or the owners demands exceeded the health of the hoof, that shoes were a better option. Forced exercise on an unhealthy hoof was cruel AND that some founders were so far gone it is wrong to try to save them all.

I don't know if he personally shoes horses (I doubt he has the time) but was never opposed to putting a shoe on a horse for need (think reiners, for traction, etc).

What he did emphasize was shoeless is better if possible and his focus was ALWAYS on restoring hoof health and structure-it really was not about the shoe but about hoof health.

SO I do believe i was correct in my statement. I was never taught all of those things-maybe it was said in secret but *I* was never taught those things.

For the record I do think many horses suffer from lack of hoof health-I DO think the lack of structure is something that should be addressed first (just like a weak tendon or lack of muscling).

I do feel a horse that is unsound bare is unsound (maybe weak is a better word) even if a shoe is added...adding a shoe can make the horse more comfortable for a given job BUT weak structures are weak structures.

It is no different than tendonitis flaring in my elbow-it is weak. I can were a brace to get through a workout and feel ok BUT the underlying tendon is still weak.

Am I evil for bracing it? no. Could I cause more problems? Maybe. Did I just personally do it and it worked out for me? Yes.

I look at things differently perhaps because of how I am with my body and fitness and awareness of strengths and things like that-I see it from a different place.

The trouble *I* have is owners or farriers or trimmers that do NOT understand healthy form. That explain away skinny frogs and flare as something that is normal-it is not.

Get the hooves healthy and carry on.

AND I also am darn sure that more horses out there could perform bare than do simply because I observe unhealthy hooves covered by shoes.

Does this mean all can? Heavens no -not any more than all horses can be fixed or healed with any kind of diet, training program, bit, bridle, saddle or shoe or boot.

Some poor suckers are just weak and need to sit on the bench.

BUT for the rest of them-they just suffer from the same thing that most Americans suffer-lack of correct athletic training and fitness, poor diet, sitting around flipping channels and not moving.

That alone would improve most horses problems (and humans).

I just no longer see this as religion-rather common sense.

If a horse is fat, feed him less.

If he is weak build his muscles

If has energy, don't feed him candy and work him harder

If he has a weakness anywhere, including hooves, focus on improving that body part not covering up the issue.

I do that for my animals and myself.

[luvmywalkers]

I agree. And so do shoes(in all their iterations), barefoot, and various combinations thereof. As the farriers hereabouts have been saying from the git-go, "It Depends".....:)

Couldn't agree more.

[LMH]

OH and for the record I hate all boots. If I had to ride in boots all the time my horses would be retired or shod.

I will use them for a medical situation or a once in a blue moon Dawson Forest gravel from hell trail ride but NEVER daily.

Hate them. Always have.

[webmistress32]

I really depise the use of the term BUA.

find something else, please.

[Rick Burten]

I also find the use of the term BUA highly offensive. Its meant to be so. Along with disparaging, disrespectful, derisive. contemptuous, degrading, and insulting. Not to mention, accurate.......

[Rick Burten]

It is no different than tendonitis flaring in my elbow-it is weak. I can were a brace to get through a workout and feel ok BUT the underlying tendon is still weak.
It Depends. :) Not all itis' is due to a 'weakness' per se. Not all structural failures are do to weakness per se. :)

[Rick Burten]

I really depise the use of the term BUA.
<shrug>
find something else, please.
Why? Since accuracy counts, why be imprecise?

[BornToRide]

I've mainly learned from two well known trimmers and that "mantra" above is not what I was taught. Perhaps some believe that but I don't and never have. I also find the use of the term BUA highly offensive. I think this post is going to do nothing but start a major catfight and be completely 100% unproductive.

Why do you care if BTR shuts up or not? All this bickering is way more offensive to me than one person posting her ideas..right or wrong. You all just need to move on.

Very much agree. Kim used to be much nicer to me when I disagreed with a Strasser trimmer on another forum. I still have that e-mail from her :winkgrin:

Besides Kim, you and others keep blissfully ignoring that on many occasions I have posted that it does not bother me if people use shoes on hooves as long as those hooves are healthy and the shoes are not used to merely cover up some pathology. I believe that using shoes on an unhealthy hoof generally delays the healing process.

[Daydream Believer]

Its meant to be so. Along with disparaging, disrespectful, derisive. contemptuous, degrading, and insulting. Not to mention, accurate.......

Do you find the name Iron Hanger or Hoof Butcher to be offensive to describe farriers? I would also. :yes: I know some farriers who deserve those titles but out of respect for those who don't, I don't use obnoxious offensive labels that paint everyone in the same light regardless of their skills, beliefs, or ethics.

I AM a trimmer and I am a pretty good one. I don't believe shoes are evil nor do I believe nails are evil. I don't believe all horses can go barefoot for the purposes we people want to use them for either. Whatever...who cares...I don't mind boots either and think they are kind of neat and I've had some cool successes using them. Each to their own...whatever!

Yes, I was told by Paige that same thing, Kim, and she and I both discussed several times that sometimes putting shoes on is the best thing for the horse. Paige is my Mentor also and I highly respect her and her experience. I have no issues with anyone who shoes their horse nor should anyone have issues with someone that does not who chooses to use boots.

I still think all this bitching over BTR and her posts is stupid. Just put her on ignore if you don't like what she has to say. It only makes those of you who attack her constantly look petty and mean.

[LMH]

DB I never thought BUA was a term for a trimmer...maybe I am slow.

*I* thought it actually kind of stemmed from the Strasser trimmers and that mentality-Barefoot Uber Alles-Barefoot Above All, at all costs, no exceptions ever, period. no debates.

It also has to do with a sense of superiority-I am better because I don't shoe. I am better than farriers. I know more than vets. I know more than anyone that does not have the same mentality as I do. Given the chance I could cure, fix, improve or make any horse anywhere sound if the silly idiots would just do what I said.

I did not think it was used for a trimmer that prefers to trim only, prefers barefoot options first and would really try avoid shoes unless as a last resort.

Did I miss that train?

[irishcas]

Vait(sic) a minute, Vait(sic) a minute. Does this mean that you are again a BUAtista? :eek: :D

HUH?? Vhat do you mean darlink?

I'm recovering har dee har har.. Thats why I'm now the first and foremost New Age Farrier (logo to follow soon).

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member and Recovering BUA

[deltawave]

The same 10-12 people are the ones who are continually arguing about this topic in terms of semantics, dogma, and philosophy. The rest of us try to see the forest for the trees, are able to see both sides, and wish like heck all the expert minds would just give the endless bickering a rest and have productive, constructive, and edifying discussions that the rest of us can learn from. :sigh:

[irishcas]

OH and for the record I hate all boots. If I had to ride in boots all the time my horses would be retired or shod.

I will use them for a medical situation or a once in a blue moon Dawson Forest gravel from hell trail ride but NEVER daily.

Hate them. Always have.

Amen sister!

And for the record, I agree with most of what you wrote. Just a correction though, the DAEP wasn't making the horses walk on Pea Gravel, it was GRAVEL big honking, hurt my human feet through shoes Gravel... sigh.

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[LMH]

Good grief....where is the common sense-I swear though the DAEP did not get that from KC!!

Or at least the KC I knew!

[irishcas]

Very much agree. Kim used to be much nicer to me when I disagreed with a Strasser trimmer on another forum. I still have that e-mail from her :winkgrin:

Besides Kim, you and others keep blissfully ignoring that on many occasions I have posted that it does not bother me if people use shoes on hooves as long as those hooves are healthy and the shoes are not used to merely cover up some pathology. I believe that using shoes on an unhealthy hoof generally delays the healing process.

I still have it too, so what. I did agree, I find that most times any of us pushing against the Strasserites all agree. Vickey has changed her tune though ;)

Anyway, you are BUA your saying shoes are okay for some and healthy BS is utter nonsense. Would you put a cast on an arm that wasn't broken? :eek:

Shoes are to help assist a horse, whether thru an unhealthy stage or to get a job done. There are horses needless shod, I think.. I don't judge people anymore (unlike the BUA). You even made the stoopid statement that riding doesn't create thin soles.. Uhhh, guess you haven't ridden a horse in Arizona for hours a day, weeks on end...

You have your own little world you live in and from there you create absolutes. You think I'm mean (oo now who is in Junior High :rolleyes:) When I'm stating facts, that there are no absolutes and when you have the ability/capability to open your steel door bolted, closed mind, you might understand this. The truth hurts honey.

You all will be singing the same tune eventually, it's just I think of it first and I'm the bad guy. Then when you all say it I'm already thinking of the next thing. Sucks to always be in front, sigh.

Good posts Rick Burten!

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member -- Also bored while waiting for the vet to get here and do her thing with all the horses. Thank god for BTR and all this BUA fun

[ddashaq]

The same 10-12 people are the ones who are continually arguing about this topic in terms of semantics, dogma, and philosophy. The rest of us try to see the forest for the trees, are able to see both sides, and wish like heck all the expert minds would just give the endless bickering a rest and have productive, constructive, and edifying discussions that the rest of us can learn from. :sigh:

Ditto that, a thousand times. I would love to learn a thing or two since it seems to me that there are some very competent professionals here on COTH. It is so tiresome to wade through the same damn argument on EVERY hoof thread.:no:

[BornToRide]

Shoes are to help assist a horse, whether thru an unhealthy stage or to get a job done. There are horses needless shod, I think.. I don't judge people anymore (unlike the BUA). You even made the stoopid statement that riding doesn't create thin soles.. Uhhh, guess you haven't ridden a horse in Arizona for hours a day, weeks on end... Listen to yourself talk! Totally unprofessional! My friend just rode her little Arab on a 25 mile endurance ride all bare - the mare did great and it never caused her soles to be thin. She got all A's from all the vet checks. If soles are affected this way by riding, then there's probably an underlying cause for it, something that makes the soles weaker, thereby causing more wear! instead of just putting shoes on, that underlying cause should be thoroughly explored and eliminated.

You have your own little world you live in and from there you create absolutes. You think I'm mean (oo now who is in Junior High :rolleyes:) When I'm stating facts, that there are no absolutes and when you have the ability/capability to open your steel door bolted, closed mind, you might understand this. The truth hurts honey. Too funny, I never made the Junior High statement but it really sounds to me like you are still in it.

[monstrpony]

The same 10-12 people are the ones who are continually arguing about this topic in terms of semantics, dogma, and philosophy. The rest of us try to see the forest for the trees, are able to see both sides, and wish like heck all the expert minds would just give the endless bickering a rest and have productive, constructive, and edifying discussions that the rest of us can learn from. :sigh:

Once again, I bow down before DW's good, plain, not-so-common, sense.

[merrygoround]

The same 10-12 people are the ones who are continually arguing about this topic in terms of semantics, dogma, and philosophy. The rest of us try to see the forest for the trees, are able to see both sides, and wish like heck all the expert minds would just give the endless bickering a rest and have productive, constructive, and edifying discussions that the rest of us can learn from. :sigh:

It tisn't in them, at all, at all. ;)

And sadly all the opinions aren't expert, though most are. ;)

[Pippigirl]

Hi All:

I was reading the usual bunk being spouted by BTR, who has drunk and is swimming in the koolaid :) I'd like to discuss some of the tenets of the BUA. I was a former BUAite so feel like I have an understanding. I like to think I was never as rabid as BTR but who knows. Maybe this will help people understand where it comes from (although her cult like behavior always takes it to a new limit) and how to combat it.

Just thought I'd post the list above and my thoughts on it. Should make for some interesting conversations :)

Have Fun

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

Hmmm...you are sprouting your own fiction, acting like a troll... You were just as rabid...still are just as rabid... Given your past behaviour...in time your beliefs in hoof care behaviour will probably change again when you experience problems with your shoeing. If that's what the AHA group is all about...sure doesn't say much for the group as a whole.

At least BTR's opinions on hoof care do not change. At least other BUA's do not flip flop in their opinions.

Your idea of an interesting conversation does not include hoof discussions...it involves bullying and rude attacking.

You were given a 'time out' on Horseshoes.com ...

[Moderator 1]

Personal commentary throughout--keep the focus on hooves and horse care, not other posters.

Mod 1