The Epic Saddle Search is OVER! Three cheers for Devoucoux! Update pg. 2

[Renn/aissance]

I won't bore you with how long I have been looking for a saddle that truly fits my horse. For awhile I had an Antares that suited him well, but after he developed a topline, it sat low on his wither and pinched pretty much everywhere. Vet/chiropractor and Antares fitter both said that he would do better with a wide tree. We got a wide tree. It did not fit. They tried to fix it, I ultimately decided to cut my losses and start from square 1. This is square 1. Wither tracing coming tomorrow.

I am looking for critique on saddle fitting (and my own perceptions of how things fit) as well as suggestions. I have ridden in two of these saddles extensively and have made comments on how they affect his back.

So here is the culprit, Tipperary. He is a 14-year-old Irish Sport Horse standing 15.2 1/2. This is his average year-round weight (he might be a little rounder come summer) and muscle development. It varies a little throughout the year but remains fairly constant.

Conformation: http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01533Custom.jpg

Lateral view of back, left side:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01492Custom.jpg

Lateral view of back, right side:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01496Custom-1.jpg

Shoulder and wither, left side, front view:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01494Custom.jpg

Shoulder and wither, right side, front view:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01497Custom.jpg

Shoulder and wither, left side, back view:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01493Custom.jpg

Shoulder and wither, right side, back view:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01498Custom.jpg

View from behind:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01495Custom.jpg
You can see that he is a little high on the right hip; this is normal for him, and it's a skeletal issue rather than a muscular one.

Today I tried on four different saddles.

Smith Worthington Beaufort Lux
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01501Custom.jpg
Sits pretty level, but closer to the wither than I would like. The panel kind of scoots up under the flap and bridges slightly on both sides. Also: good grief, could that panel be stuffed any more?

Left shoulder:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01500Custom.jpg

Right shoulder:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01505Custom.jpg

Left 3/4 view from the back:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01502Custom.jpg
The saddle sits on top of him, not around him.

Right 3/4 view from the back:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01503Custom.jpg

Back view:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01504Custom.jpg
You can really see what I mean when I say it sits on him, not around him.

Underneath:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01539Custom.jpg
...and here you see WHY it sits on top of him and not around. Look at all that padding around the outside edge of the panel, and the lack of panel in the trapezius area. This saddle is 100% ploof in the panel.

Smith Worthington Agilite
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01510Custom.jpg
This gives him a lot more wither clearance, but again, Jesus Mary and Joseph, could they have fluffed up those panels any more?

Left shoulder:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01509Custom.jpg

Left 3/4 view from behind:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01508Custom.jpg

Right shoulder:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01505Custom.jpg

Right 3/4 view from behind:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01506Custom.jpg
Again, it kind of just sits on top of him. Lots of padding in the panels, but how much good is that doing the horse when the panels don't really connect to his back except in a few places?

Back:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01507Custom.jpg

Underneath:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01540Custom.jpg
Like the Beaufort Lux, this has a lot of padding on the outside edge.

Antares
This is the Antares that is going back to the factory. I provide it for comparison; some parts of it work.

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01516Custom.jpg
This flap is more representative of what I need, as a rider. I have long legs. I will provide those measurements when I dig out my tape measure. This saddle sits around him, not just on him.

Right shoulder:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01511Custom.jpg
WAY too tight on Tip's gigantic shoulder. Sits on his wither when it slides back. (Everything slides back on Tip, at least a little, and breastplates don't help. Look at the way he's built, you'll see why.)

Right 3/4 view from behind:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01512Custom.jpg
I really like the way the panels sit on his back here.

Left shoulder:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01514Custom.jpg
You can really see here why I don't like the fit of this saddle; it contacts the shoulder really only at one point, and it is TIGHT.

Left 3/4 view from behind:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01515Custom.jpg

Back:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01513Custom.jpg
These panels suit his back MUCH better than either of the SW saddles. Also: wide gullet, which helps, I think, but is also the reason that it sits on his wither when my weight is in it.

When I rode in this saddle, the results were what you would expect. It slid back, sat on his wither, impaired the swing of his shoulder, hurt his back, and when the chiropractor saw him, his withers and shoulder were both out and ouchy.

Underneath:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01538Custom.jpg
I love that the panel scoops down and fills in the hollows of the trapezius.

Butet

I threw this on him for kicks and giggles two days ago. When I first got Tip, I had a Butet which (judging by the serial number) came out of the factory identical to this saddle. It didn't fit him then, and actually it didn't fit me either; I needed a more forward flap. (I will need either a 2.5 or, if I remember correctly, a 3 will also work.)

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01519Custom.jpg

Right shoulder:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01520Custom.jpg
Good fit through the shoulder; it makes contact all the way around and doesn't pinch. Tip LOVES the way this saddle fits his shoulder.

Right 3/4 view from behind:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01521Custom.jpg
Not as great here. It verges on bridging and could make more contact with his back on the inside edge of the panel.

However, I don't think it actually bridges.; it's hard to tell here, but when I ran my hand under the saddle, I felt even contact.
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01522Custom.jpg

Left shoulder:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01525Custom.jpg
There's a tiny gap in contact at the very top of the panel, by the pommel. I don't know whether this is Tip's asymmetry or the panel's, but I suspect Tip's.

Left 3/4 view from behind:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01524Custom.jpg

Back view:
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/DSC01523Custom.jpg
You can see what I mean by wanting more contact on the inside of the panels, towards the gullet. Still a better fit than the SWs, in my opinion.

When I sit down in this saddle, my weight pushes the saddle closer to his wither (about 2 fingers' width of gap) so when I rode in it, I rode with a compacted wool wither cut-out pad. This didn't impair the fit around the shoulder but kept it off his wither and spine. After four days (two flatwork, one trail ride, one horse show) his back is comfortable. Take a look at this page and tell me if you think that the "B" panel option would work for him to give him a little more lift through the wither and spine, or if any of the other panel options (or combination) would work: http://www.allthebestusedsaddles.com/butet-saddle-sizing.aspx

So... that's it. What have I missed here? What suggestions would you make on companies that can make a saddle to fit (keeping in mind that Tad Coffin and Black Country don't work and there is not a County on earth that fits my horse)? Those of you with Smith Worthingtons, can the company make these saddles fit Tip? Do you think that a Butet with a different panel option to lift it off the wither would be a viable option? Or fill in the blanks. This is square one for me.

[jn4jenny]

You won't like this answer because of the expense, but your sob story (and the pictures) suggest that an Amerigo Vesuvio would work for you.

Speak to them about the close contact jumping (this is the saddle that I have):
http://www.amerigosaddles.ch/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=40

but you'll probably end up in the Vesuvio. The Vesuvio was MADE for horses like yours--not only high withered but long withered, big shouldered, very curvy topline, tendency for saddle to slide forward or back due to the curvy topline "pushing" it when the horse is in motion. My good friend has a wide load horse like yours with a big (and fat) wither, and she tried all the expensive brands--Antares, Devoucoux, Tad Coffin, Prestige, Butet, you name it she tried it. The horse has now had his Vesuvio for almost 2 years.
http://www.amerigosaddles.ch/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=33

If you want a first-hand report on the Vesuvio, that's the saddle that ended RunForIt's hellish saddle search for Rasta. She had many of the same issues. I believe she owns a Vesuvio in XW.

For reference, here is my horse's back. He goes in an Amerigo Close Contact, which is Amerigo's more standard model. He wasn't curvy enough or long-withered enough for a Vesuvio. That croup-high conformation with the big shoulder in front was a bear to fit, but we've had the Amerigo now for almost a year and it still fits him (even after he muscled up--miracle of miracles! We just took out the Mattes pad from underneath when he got his topline in).
http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w197/jn4jenny/?action=view&current=IMG_4973.jpg

If you wanted to go foam, Prestige probably has something for you. But I am a wool-flocking kind of gal, so I stay away from Prestige.

PS--the Butet and the Antares both looks okay (not amazing but acceptable), but unless they're planning to modify the front of the tree to increase the height of the pommel arch, I don't like the wither clearance you're getting. If that's what you're getting without a girth and without a rider's weight, you'll have none left when you get on the horse!

[mvp]

Renn,

Wow. No one can say you haven't tried.

Your horse has a slightly tougher version of what mine does-- tall wither with some hollows beside it and a wide rib-cage that isn't going anywhere.

What makes him a bit tougher than mine might be the shortness and extremeness of the curve from his withers to the lowest point in his back and then back up and out as where the saddle meets his barrel, say 1/2 back of its total length. does that make sense? Compare to jn4jenny's horse where something similar happens but the whole back and these dimensions are longer.

This saddling your horse is not an academic problem, but a practical one that should be actually solved, pronto, right?

So the practical questions. What do you want and how much do you want to spend? All things being equal would you like a Butet or Anteres? Are you willing to go as high as 4 grand?

Looking at the saddles you have. If you read the disaster of a post "Compendium of Measurements" in RARs thread, it may help to measure these in the saddle you have before you for future reference.

The panels of your first saddle (hind view, name plate, wide gullet) fit him better than any of the others. The gullet looks a little wide and that's cool unless the saddle wants to roll from side to side and then the wide gullet many be a problam.

In front: Next time you take pics, if might help to show the entire length of the panel. For my horse (wither hollows but wide shoulder) a saddle won't parallel his body all the way down. According to County, if the tree points (judged by the leading edge of the panels and sweat flap, IMO) can be within 10 degrees of the back's angle here and it's cool. You have probably gotten closer and that's good.

Big question: How close does you horse want his saddle to fit around the withers? In other words, does he want the panels to meet his back within, say, a vertical 1.5" down from the bony part or does he want 3"-- meaning lots of height and space?

I bring this up because mine (16 years) wants lots of space-- more than a good-fitting County was designed to offer. I suspect that older horses want more space because that means the panels are resting on the trapezius' muscle body, not the harder tendon that links muscle to bone around the withers. It may be that as horses age and their withers seem to get taller, that border between collagen and muscle moves "down" and closer "up" to the withers means a you are encountering collagen there.

One good test for mine is walking down hill. In a roomy "Cathedral Effect" kind of saddle, he'll walk down hill more freely in front than in a close-fitting saddle. Using the same test, I know that he doesn't mind if a softly flocked wool panels is tighter around his trapezius muscle body (and shoulder and lats) than around his all-important withers.

So ask you horse if he will compromise here, or if he doesn't mind a saddle that really hugs his withers (assuming the pommel will never actually tough his withers when you are in it.)

Mid-saddle. You discovered S-W's strangeness. They do flock the bejesus out of their panels, and make them quite the little loggy sausages. I don't know why. Yes, these saddles tend to sit on a horse and not around them. If I give up and have them make a saddle for me (could happen), this will be something we would absolutely have to modify first.

The angle of the Agilite panels in back aren't bad, but I with they flared our more below the cantle. I also wish they weren't so flat and hard looking. That lack of a curve (front to back) on this saddle and certainly on the very flat Beaufort Lux won't work for yours.

I'd ride once in the Agilite and see what you horse thinks.

I'd also feel around under the Agilite and the Beaufort Lux for educational purposes. My bet is that the Beaufort Lux's pommel is too close to your horse's withers, but will bridge from the stirrup bars back to the back edge of the sweat flap. If that's true, then you might know that you need a tree with more curve, front to back. French might work.

Amerigo has a reputation for fitting this general kind of conformation. Someone's sending me one and I'll let you know what I think for my beast.

It's nice to see that Butet is (finally) figuring out that people need to saddle older WBs with your horse's conformation. I like the B-panel design, though it may not be extreme enough for your horse. They (Bevals) do do demos, so I'd have them send me one.

I don't think a Tad Coffin would work-- they are remarkably flat. Not sure why a Black Country would not... except that it's tough in practice to find a dealer that will stock enough demo options to tell you much before you order. Did you go through all this? Black Country does have many trees to choose from, more than Trumbull Mountain represents. Finally, I'm trying to see if a County Conquest (slightly deeper seat) will be a tree that pleases me and Horsebody. If so, perhaps we can have a modified one built for us.

Hope this helps. Ask questions if it doesn't.

P.S. How much is that Agilite and is it conventional- and pretty-looking enough for the hunter ring in your opinion?

[JB]

I absolutely agree you need to try an Amerigo/Vega wide tree in this horse. My TB mare has a deceptively wide shoulder, tall *and long* withers, and no wither muscle, with well-sprung ribs, as well as a curvy back. I was very surprised how well a *wide* Vega Jump fit her shoulders, followed her back, and didn't impinge at all on her withers. I SO wish now I'd taken a picture of that :(

Ditch the Butet for this horse :no:

The first saddle, as mvp mentioned, is by far the best fit in terms of the rear panels sitting on his back. So, that's one aspect down - you NEED that flat fit. The panel can still be gusseted, but it MUST be flat like that. All the others are too angled, even if by just a little.

I don't think you're going to have a terribly difficult time here, actually. You need a curvy panel, something with a slight cutback pommel (or at least not one of those "Snoopy on the doghouse" pommels where it looks like it's curving around to have a look down), rear panels that are *flat* (not flat stuff-wise, but flat shape-wise), AND, because I think these withers are not ones that need filling just riiiiiight at the withers, I would make sure the saddle is a little extra wide and use a lift-front pad.

[Renn/aissance]

JN4Jenny, I will PM RunForIt about her saddle search and also contact Amerigo. Thanks--it does look like it could have been designed with my horse in mind. Nothing on Amerigo's website about this, but do you know if they are able to add custom options, as I am going to need a different flap than that?

What makes him a bit tougher than mine might be the shortness and extremeness of the curve from his withers to the lowest point in his back and then back up and out as where the saddle meets his barrel, say 1/2 back of its total length. does that make sense? Compare to jn4jenny's horse where something similar happens but the whole back and these dimensions are longer.

You mean the bit where he has the shoulder and ribcage of an Irish Draught but the overall length of a Shetland Pony? Yeah, that's been a problem. ;) That's why everything slides back on him. I use an Eco-Gold no-slip pad and the girth on the back two billets to combat this, but the saddle is then in the unenviable position of having to fit the horse adjusted properly and then also fit half-decently when it's slid back, because most saddles slide back during the course of a jump course.

So the practical questions. What do you want and how much do you want to spend? All things being equal would you like a Butet or Anteres? Are you willing to go as high as 4 grand?

I am a sucker for a French saddle and, having looked at the typical panel design of the Antares, Devoucoux, etc. they are suited for him. I think that the tree on a typical French saddle, with more curve on it, is also better suited to his back. That said, I grew up in a Crosby PDN and wouldn't mind going back to that if they made a model that was long enough for my leg. (Let's cut to the chase here, they don't.) I don't want to go up to 4 grand, but if I have to, I have to.

Big question: How close does you horse want his saddle to fit around the withers? In other words, does he want the panels to meet his back within, say, a vertical 1.5" down from the bony part or does he want 3"-- meaning lots of height and space?

He wants space around the withers, but hates to have his shoulder pinched. And that is why there is not a County on earth that fits this horse. (Or me, come to think of it; I've ridden in 10 or 20 of them, different models, and they ALL pitch me forward and throw my leg back.)

I'd also feel around under the Agilite and the Beaufort Lux for educational purposes. My bet is that the Beaufort Lux's pommel is too close to your horse's withers, but will bridge from the stirrup bars back to the back edge of the sweat flap. If that's true, then you might know that you need a tree with more curve, front to back.

Your bet on the Beaufort Lux is most probably correct; it's going to sit down on his wither as soon as I put my weight in it. I'm 5'7" and 150 pounds here, by the way.

With regards to Black Country--I despise the things. Again, never sat in one that I liked (Quantum and one other model--blanking on the name) and that put me in a good place.

How much is that Agilite and is it conventional- and pretty-looking enough for the hunter ring in your opinion?

I want to say it's $3300-3600 and it'll be fine once you oil it up. The SW Trainer is another matter, but I also hate buffalo leather, so. ;)

Ditch the Butet for this horse :no:

What specific aspects of the saddle are making you say that?

I'm going to run the local saddlery gauntlet today and see if one of them either has Amerigos in stock (I don't think so, other than the Vega) or can order them. How similar is the Vega fit to the others--can I get a general picture off of that?

[JB]

What specific aspects of the saddle are making you say that?
2 things - rear panels are not flat enough for him, and the front panels come way up almost to the top of his wither. There is zero room for any muscle development.

I'm going to run the local saddlery gauntlet today and see if one of them either has Amerigos in stock (I don't think so, other than the Vega) or can order them. How similar is the Vega fit to the others--can I get a general picture off of that?
I thought the Vega was modeled just like the Amerigo
http://www.gallopssaddlery.com/images/92672f97100f2ccbeea1a156abd0f95.jpg

[mvp]

Farmhouse Tack has a wide selection of saddles you might like. They are also very nice to deal with, as is, perhaps required of all Southerners, and seem to have access to all kinds of Amerigos.

I found the Quantum to put me in a slight toilet seat and you might like if you were jumping the big ones. Won't work for my ambitions unless we build something custom. Is that your problem or is it that everything pitches you forward?

It may help you, as it did in my short chick case, to ride in a bunch that work and don't work for you and start figuring out what about a saddle puts you "right" or "wrong." The shape and length of the flap matter. The horizontal distance between the stirrup bar and the front of the flap ahead of the knee pocket make a huge difference IME. The thickness and position of any knee roles (pencil style which follow the whole leading edge of the sweatflap versus a smaller thigh roll that's very high up under your thigh or lower) also make a difference in a 3-D way (coming out off the surface of your horse's shoulder to create a more or less deep groove for your leg and barrier in front of your thigh).

I also think the flat, non-integrated panel of a Pessoa or PdN versus an integrated and thick panel on any County or BC make a difference for rider balance, too. This was why I asked the basic question about whether you want a French version of a deeply padded saddle or these British renditions of the same. If you want less, you will almost invariably be more happy with the Continental rather than Anglo version.

You might also look into Frank Baines stuff. The quality of his leather and craftsman ship is suppose to be top (according to some pros), and the wither tracing guide on his website makes me think the company takes pains with fitting.

Last, have you looked into good custom people? Think David Stackhouse and Richard Castelow. Beautiful saddles, all the coin you would expect from someone who will measure you and your horse and start just about from scratch. Wayne Rasmussen, aka The Country Saddler, also makes a very traditional-looking line called Legacy saddles. He has a website. He also was introducing a covered saddle with wither gussets for WBs. Those will be like an Innovation or Anteres in their look, depth and intention. I'm not sure just how sophisticated he is about fitting. I haven't called yet, but Kay Hastilow in lower PA has a good reputation as a saddler. She traffics in BCs, but also has her own line. They may be a little coarse-looking for your tastes, but I don't know much about the range of what she has or does. Are you averse to a CWD? Their ustomer service and attempts to fit horses are rumored to be good. They guarantee fit, I believe. If I had 4K to spend and was not in the sticks and thought a French tree would work for my beast, I'd have them come out for a look-see at my horse. Your horse's back, budget and taste might make it worth while to call them.

[jn4jenny]

Renn, regarding Amerigo flaps: They have the usual cadre of basic flap options: long flap, short flap, forward flap. Both RFI and I were surprised at how accommodating the standard flap is--I am very long through the hip and thigh and used to ride in a Bates long flap (and then later a BC Quantum long flap), but the regular Amerigo flap has done me just fine.

I thought the Vega was modeled just like the Amerigo
http://www.gallopssaddlery.com/images/92672f97100f2ccbeea1a156abd0f95.jpg

The Vega is a great saddle, but it's not "just like" an Amerigo. Basically what they did is they took the Amerigo CC (built for curvy high-withered TB's) and the Amerigo DJ (built for warmblood-type backs), and built a Vega saddle that was sort of generically between those two models. So it fits a lot of horses, but if you've got anything extreme--super high wither, super curvy back, super anything--chances are that the Vega won't work.

Renn, if you can get a Vega to fit your horse, it is a damn sight cheaper than getting an Amerigo and is a very nice saddle for the price. The leather quality is good, and other than having a synthetic tree, it's going to ride pretty much exactly like an Amerigo. Trust me, my pocketbook wishes that a Vega had worked for my horse! The trouble with Vega is that it only comes in rounded seat sizes (16", 17", and 18", no half sizes between that) and I believe they only go up to a wide tree. An Amerigo wide is what I'd call a "True wide", though, so unless you area dealing with a really wide load, it could still work for you. Here's a front shot of my friend's XW Vesuvio that I took ages ago for RunForIt--it looks thin in the picture, but try to imagine it without all that padding between the gullet points, and you'll see how wide it really is:
http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w197/jn4jenny/?action=view&current=5.jpg

I'll say this about Amerigo--I was not a fan of their customer service. My local rep tried to sell me the WRONG saddle. She was adamant about it, so I called the next nearest rep (two states away), who was downright snide with me on the phone when I asked why the price they were quoting me on the phone was different than the price on their web site. Amerigo made it right by sending out the national brand manager to fit my horse, and she was great, so all's well that ends well. My friend also waited 14 weeks for her Vesuvio, but RFI reported that she didn't have to wait nearly that long, more like 4-6 weeks? I can't quite remember. I would go through it all over again to get my saddle, which I love. I won't claim that it's THE saddle that everyone should ride in because I believe we all have different horses and we all have different butts, but let's just say I'd rather sell my beloved Brenderup trailer than part with my Amerigo. That is love.

If you decide to go Amerigo, there are ways to save cash. Sort of. You can PM me about it and I can give you a list of tack shops that tend to have used or demo ones in stock. The Vesuvio is VERY hard to find used, but you can find DJ's and CC's fairly easily.

If you had $5000 to burn, I'd tell you to call Stackhouse and be done with it. :) But Amerigo is, in my opinion, one of the next best things.

[lotje5lotje]

www.wowsaddles.com

These saddles are really fantastic!!

[JB]

The Vega is a great saddle, but it's not "just like" an Amerigo. Basically what they did is they took the Amerigo CC (built for curvy high-withered TB's) and the Amerigo DJ (built for warmblood-type backs), and built a Vega saddle that was sort of generically between those two models. So it fits a lot of horses, but if you've got anything extreme--super high wither, super curvy back, super anything--chances are that the Vega won't work.


Thanks - I have limited experience with the Vega, just the one that sat on my high-withered OTTB mare.

If it helps anyone, here's the horse the wide Vega Jump fit very well
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/1/0/9/8/2/p1010007.jpg
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/1/0/9/8/2/CatnipConfo052807-smaller.jpg

she's not a large horse - cob-size halters on her there. Note that her withers are not insubstantial :)

[mvp]

JB-- pretty mare. Looking at her confo and your experience with riding and saddling her: Do you think her center of gravity is a bit low and forward? I'm not accusing her of being down hill or anything.

I mean "is it more forward than her long wither allows you to saddle." Mine, with a low set neck like this and a long wither makes all saddles sit "too far back." But "too far back" means with respect to his natural center of gravity. Theoretically, that would be around my knee. In practice-- between his build and the position of my saddle, that's probably below and ahead of my knee, even when he's using his little skeleton the best he can in a dressage frame. The horse is light in front and feels level to ride. When he's riled up and trying, he feels decently up hill.

Just asking as I think horse physics and conformation matter for the kind of position we should ask a saddle to help us achieve on top.

[RM1908]

I swear My horse is built just like yours
My older Nelson Pessoa fits him better than any other saddle I have tried on
I have tried
Calibre, Delgrange, stubben
I also have a Albion K2 saddle that fits him but it's an all purpose and I hate the position it puts me in

Your horse is very handsome : )
hope you find something that will work for both of you

[JB]

JB-- pretty mare. Looking at her confo and your experience with riding and saddling her: Do you think her center of gravity is a bit low and forward? I'm not accusing her of being down hill or anything.

I mean "is it more forward than her long wither allows you to saddle." Mine, with a low set neck like this and a long wither makes all saddles sit "too far back." But "too far back" means with respect to his natural center of gravity. Theoretically, that would be around my knee. In practice-- between his build and the position of my saddle, that's probably below and ahead of my knee, even when he's using his little skeleton the best he can in a dressage frame. The horse is light in front and feels level to ride. When he's riled up and trying, he feels decently up hill.

Just asking as I think horse physics and conformation matter for the kind of position we should ask a saddle to help us achieve on top.
grrrr, had a detailed post typed out and Firefox crapped out on me *sigh*

Short answer - yes, saddle sits back farther than ideal, but thankfully she does not nave a very forward girth groove so have not had an issue of that trying to pull the saddle forward. She has limited off-track riding in her, with the last being 2 years ago :o She's going again now though :) I had only gotten w/t with her then, and there was nothing downhill-feeling about it, even when she trotted nose-to-dirt (literally!!). I had videos of that on putfile, but that seems to have gone *poof* :mad: so I need to find another place to upload a few videos. If you want to PM me your e-mail addy I could e-mail one to you, if you can take a large file.

[mvp]

JB-- no need to piss off anyone's computers with a video. I'll bet she doesn't feel or move down hill at all. Her wither is higher than her croup and she has a nice hind end.

Is she a "push ride"? If so, does she make you want to drop your knee lower or kick your lower leg out behind you? Mine makes me want 3 more inches of thigh to make it all work. I wish I could accommodate him. Like yours, the girth place for my horse is well-back of the H/J ideal. You can legitimately put your arm between the girth and his elbow when he has put the saddle where he wants it.

Renn, this matters for you because your horse's withers and dip behind them will do the same thing. It's probably painful for him to have shoved the tree points back into this "down hill space" (downhill front to back). The way the widens and raises again quickly after that probably makes it tough to find exactly the right panel shape and depth beneath your stirrup bars and painful for him (as well as a cantle-high saddle) when your horse puts the tree points too far back.

You especially might benefit from the detailed wither tracing method on the Frank Baines website. See JB's thread. "The Mother of all Wither Tracings." The Frankster would have you make those vertical wither-tracing lines every four inches from the points of the tree on back. Your horse might want that kind of precision. Then you can find a saddler who takes all that seriously, too.

I called Hastilow Competition USA today. You might not like their saddles, but they do seem to know about fitting horses. I'll let you know how I progress with them.

[JB]

JB-- no need to piss off anyone's computers with a video. I'll bet she doesn't feel or move down hill at all. Her wither is higher than her croup and she has a nice hind end.
LOL!

Is she a "push ride"? If so, does she make you want to drop your knee lower or kick your lower leg out behind you? Mine makes me want 3 more inches of thigh to make it all work. I wish I could accommodate him. Like yours, the girth place for my horse is well-back of the H/J ideal. You can legitimately put your arm between the girth and his elbow when he has put the saddle where he wants it.
Not a push ride at all! Well, let me quantify that - if all you want is to get going, not push *at all* - not physically at least. However, we have not progressed to any sort of "ride up into contact", so I have no idea if that will make her a little more of a push ride or not. Knowing her, I suspect it might, at first, but not for long. I think I can easily put a loosely held hand between her elbow and girth, so probably like an arm. It's *really* back there.

Renn, this matters for you because your horse's withers and dip behind them will do the same thing. It's probably painful for him to have shoved the tree points back into this "down hill space" (downhill front to back). The way the widens and raises again quickly after that probably makes it tough to find exactly the right panel shape and depth beneath your stirrup bars and painful for him (as well as a cantle-high saddle) when your horse puts the tree points too far back.
Yep, where those tree points end can be a really, really big deal, even if they are the right angle. One of the Balance saddles has really short points, which can work well for horses who widen quickly in that area.

[Renn/aissance]

You especially might benefit from the detailed wither tracing method on the Frank Baines website. See JB's thread. "The Mother of all Wither Tracings." The Frankster would have you make those vertical wither-tracing lines every four inches from the points of the tree on back. Your horse might want that kind of precision. Then you can find a saddler who takes all that seriously, too.

That's my plan. I got my flexi ruler today, and tomorrow we're going to play Measure the Pony.

JB, I'm going to put in a few phone calls and see if I can get a demo Vega. I remember trying some sort of Amerigo on him years ago (Insane Saddle Search #1) but don't recall what model it was. Your mare seems built to a bigger scale than mine, with more in the wither department certainly, but it seems the saddle will want to sit in around the same place on her back as it wants to sit on Tip's (farther back than would be thought ideal.)

I found the Quantum to put me in a slight toilet seat and you might like if you were jumping the big ones. Won't work for my ambitions unless we build something custom. Is that your problem or is it that everything pitches you forward?

Things tend to pitch me forward and push my lower leg back, or they put my knee on top of the forward edge of the flap with no support. In order to make that work I need the "toilet seat" you mentioned, which Tip hates and I hate too. I don't jump anything bigger than the 3'6", so I don't need my stirrups hitched up to my eyeballs, but I do need a good three to five holes' worth of possible stirrup adjustment in a saddle (flatwork, jumping, cross-country work.) I found both County and Black Country to fit me similarly.

What I need in a flap is either a long, forward flap or just a long flap with the stirrup bar set well back to give my thigh somewhere to go. I like to have a small knee block up high (helps me find a compromise if a saddle flap is not quite perfect, because it gives my leg somewhere to stay) and a little thigh block low on the flap doesn't hurt either, for the same reason.

I prefer a traditional panel (like the PdN or an Hermes) rather than integrated, by FAR. I grew up in a PdN and I like to feel what my horse is doing. The trouble I think I will have with SW saddles is getting less padding all around, because I feel like I'm sitting five feet above all the action.

I am holding Stackhouse and Castelow at the very back of my mind as last resorts because of their cost. If I have to go there, I have to go there, but I am hoping not to.

I am loving the looks of the Vesuvio saddle, especially that it has four billets (I am thinking second and fourth billet for my horse would be ideal to hold the saddle where it needs to be.) I've got a phone call in to try a Vega model and with luck that will work; if not, I'll start looking around at the Vesuvio.

[Renn/aissance]

I'm going to take all the pictures I took, as well as a wither tracing, to the local saddlery tomorrow and consult with the owner as to whether SW can make me something like what I want (without the 6 month *gulp* wait of a custom saddle). In the meantime, I threw together an extremely clumsy Photoshop manip of a bunch of different saddles to create an approximation of what might be the "perfect saddle" based on what I liked about saddle fit, and what I thought I would need. Keep in mind that this IS clumsy, just an exercise in throwing things together (and in some places, creating saddle parts.)

Do you guys think that this hypothetical saddle, if it actually existed, is a decent fit? (i.e., if it were an actual saddle on the actual horse, would it be likely to work?) What about its fit can I improve?

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss65/2tipperary/Saddle%20and%20Saddle%20Fitting/Perfectsaddlecopy.jpg

(I told you this thread was for armchair saddlers... now we've got an armchair photoshopper in the mix.)

[mvp]

Nice photoshopping! Your requests are clear and reasonable to me.

Yes, this will help your *real* saddler, the one to whom you will pay *real* money to make your a *real* saddle. I don't think you want too much in terms of the features you want.

But you will probably need to in include real dimensions. You say the "Compendium of Measurements" post from Risk-Averse Rider's "Bridging...." thread right?

The toughest one to get express is the angle of the panels at the back as where you'd like them to parallel your horse's back. That should be taken care of by the farthest back line in your wither tracing. I think Pessoa saddles--with panels that flare out to the sides from the cantle section are the right design, and more extreme than other saddles have. If/when I get mine built, I'm going to talk about getting this feature included.

Your 3/4 pommel shots should also include the whole length of the panel from top to bottom. The ones you have now are just a tad too close up. I think this matters because your horse might widen down lower than your current pics include.

Someone more knowledgeable might be able to infer enough info from the shot you have but I kept finding myself wanting some anatomical landmarks or scaling (a clumsy way of putting it). You might want to do this because you want a long forward flap on a relatively small and curvy horse. On my own beast (more estreme variation from slightly-shark finned withers to wide-a$$ shoulder), pics show good fit up top and 3/4 of the way down, like your pics, but more/tighter contact below that. The farther forward the flap, the more this will happen.

With the pictured saddle (someone's Butet, right?) what do you feel when you run your hand down the front edge of the panel?

What I am discovering is that my horse might need a slightly wider tree and trapezius panels to accommodate his low-width at the shoulders, but narrower dimensions at the top of his back. The option freaks me out a bit from an engineering/materials science perspective. Am I sure that I want to put a too-wide tree on this horse and expect wool to do the work of holding the saddle up off his withers? But I bring this up so that when you have people ship you the expensive box-o'-demos anyway, you ask them to throw in a slightly wider tree if you want to try.

The soft wool paneling near the lower half of your thigh and knee-- well blow the points of the tree-- will allow his scapula and muscle (deltoids?) to slide underneath it. There are ways to flock saddles so that there is even less wool here-- an aftermarket modification. (Ask Curt at S-W how he flocked my Bates Caprilli back in the day. It's there now so he can check it out.) But you need to ask your horse what he thinks of that kind of design. Mine uses forward flaps and densely-flocked panels as an excuse to shove the whole saddle backward.

Let us know when you find the saddler who will work well with you. People ready to try hard, learn a lot and fork out want to know!

[Renn/aissance]

I rode in the Smith Worthington Agilite today. It's a nice saddle and I didn't feel quite so elevated above the horse's back as I thought I would. It could be made to fit Tip, I think. Unfortunately, the seat puts me in a really bad position where I'm forced forward. I can hold my leg in place, so it's not as bad as a County, but it's just the way the seat is. So that's out. MVP, was that one of the SW saddles you were looking at?

I did have a minor breakthrough though, or I may have in any case. I rode in my trainer's Devoucoux Biarritz yesterday. It wasn't a perfect fit for him (I think he needs a slightly wider gullet and flatter panels in the back, but I suspect that can be fixed) but it freed up his wither, shoulder, and back, and he was very comfortable in it. It had a good shape, I loved where it put me. And better news, there are a few other people at my barn who are looking at these saddles, so we're going to try to get together and get the rep out for all of us.

I have a wither tracing of my horse if anyone would like to see it (once I figure out how to scan the bloody thing. It's big!)

[mvp]

So glad you found a type of saddle built for your type of horse!

You should know that Devoucoux has a reputation for really bad customer service, but if you can get a rep out to your barn and "rough him up" a little before you buy, it might work.

Your horse-- curvy front to back--might be a good candidate for a french tree. Those bananas do that. But I have found that wide ones roll front to back. They need more flocking and longer (vertical-dimension) panels in the section between the points of the tree and the waist of the panels than most frenchies think to include. I'd definitely get wool rather than foam.

I think I mentioned the test for rolling. Put your hand beneath one of the panels near the cantle and post. If the back of the saddle lifts off your horses back you are absolutely screwed. It's a painful problem for horses. A rolling saddle usually produces those discretely-bordered dry spots right underneath your weight.

Your horse's conformation means that you might want to make the kind of wither tracing found on the Hastilow Competition Saddles website. That one asks for a line at the points of the tree (the standard 2 fingers behind the scapula), but more important-- another line 4" behind that and then a third perhaps 10" back from that first line. I did this but was a little confused by their instructions. The point is that your horse's back really changes in this crucially-weight bearing and "front" section. You need to map his conformation there with more precision that would the Smith Worthington system allow. So 7" behind the first line doesn't hold enough information about your horse's back.

I put vertical lines of masking tape on my horse. I made the tracing but also took the required pics-- especially the one looking from his croup forward-- with the tape in place. I'm hoping that those really visible lines will help my saddlers see the curves of his back really well.

I did not see the Agilite, but I do think it's a pretty-enough saddle for what the show peeps like us would want. I'm glad the tall/hard panels didn't feel bad in practice. I may end up having them build me a modified version of one of these, but they do start out pretty expensive if your quoted price was right. I'm not sure why S W flocks their panels so hard. I don't know if you can buy one and then ask Curt at Hartford to take out enough wool to reduce the density of the panels. I'll ask when I speak with them next.

By the way, the Amerigo I tried didn't work for mine but might suit your horse. I don't know which model-- perhaps their very blond-looking Close Contact. I think those are built on a British tree, but one that has some banana curve to it. If you can find the right demo, it may be worth having one shipped. A couple of caveats-- Italians can't seem to tan leather without putting a painted-on layer on top which wears in a fugly way. I think they are changing their leather but raising the price on new ones to around $4 k. If this is so, then one can do better in terms of aesthetics for the same money. They are also flocked pretty hard, though not quite as full as the S Ws. If the saddle fits, great; if not, the wool "logs" up there won't help.

Hope this helps!

[Renn/aissance]

You should know that Devoucoux has a reputation for really bad customer service, but if you can get a rep out to your barn and "rough him up" a little before you buy, it might work.


That's why I had stayed away from this company before. My trainer, though, has worked with Devoucoux for several years, and she says she has never had a problem. Even better, I will hopefully be able to find one used (in fact, if my local saddler can rip the panels off of one that needs the panels replaced and give me wool panels that he custom fits to Tip, I'm golden.) I didn't notice any problem with rolling in the Devoucoux, and I also didn't see any dry pressure marks under the pad. So that is encouraging.

I think the wither tracing I took is similar to the Hastilow one. I have 1" behind the scapula, 4" behind the scapula, 4" behind line 2, and then 4" behind line 3. Total of 4 different tracings of width (and then the requisite one showing the curve of his spine) with a total of 13" back from the scapula covered. Is that similar enough to what you're talking about?

I will be picking up an Amerigo Vega to try tomorrow. I think it was the DJ model that I tried on him before that didn't work, but that was a whole different body shape ago, and with it being built for a mix of curvy TB and wide WB shape it might work. Or it might not. I'll keep you posted.

[JB]

It's really much more beneficial to have the forward-most tracing 2" behind the scapula. Not only are you looking to make sure it's not sitting ON the shoulder blade, but you're wanting to make sure that as the legs extend forward, that the rear-moving scapula is not going to hit the front panels of the saddle.

The BEST thing is to have someone pull a front leg forward (several times if you need to see better) and see just how far back the shoulder blade moves as the leg comes forward. You don't want the front panels to be any more forward than that rear-most position. Some horses don't mind, some mind a LOT.

[mvp]

Beware the wide Amerigo. It may roll.

They are flocked pretty hard-- closer to the S W feel than the County or Black Country panel. I happened to speak with them today and asked why. The idea is that they are made that way because they expect a saddler to modify them to fit the horse exactly. It works better to take wool out than to put it in as that avoids the danger of producing lumps.

Back to Amerigo fit. The one I had looked pretty good, except for a couple of visible symptoms. Because of the hard panels, it fit my horse around the shoulder but not the withers. Ample Cathedral Effect, I tried to rationalize.

It also felt good around the panels everywhere else. That diagonal measurement related to the trapezius/wither hollows section was a decent 6".

But the too wide and hard flocked everywhere meant that it rolled when I posted.

If there were a saddler near me-- the real surgical kind-- I suppose I could have him or her take some wool out from the lower part of the panels in front of my knee and under the seat to create a flatter surface. But the saddle didn't fit me or the horse well enough to buy.

The search continues. May the Devoucoux or Amerigo end it for you!

[NCSaddleFitter]

It's really much more beneficial to have the forward-most tracing 2" behind the scapula. Not only are you looking to make sure it's not sitting ON the shoulder blade, but you're wanting to make sure that as the legs extend forward, that the rear-moving scapula is not going to hit the front panels of the saddle.

The BEST thing is to have someone pull a front leg forward (several times if you need to see better) and see just how far back the shoulder blade moves as the leg comes forward. You don't want the front panels to be any more forward than that rear-most position. Some horses don't mind, some mind a LOT.

The measurement for Amerigo and Vega saddles is taken just behind the scapula, not further back like other companies.

It gets tough because there really is no stipulation for "wide" or "medium" in their measurements... it's all by centimeters (gleamed from math done on the wither tracing) and that width will change with different models. I hate to say this, but the company isn't making the process any easier for fitters either... When I first learned to fit Amerigos, a medium was 26.5cm. Now I'm hearing 26. You wouldn't think that makes too big of a deal, but it can.

Another fitter told me a few years back that she always fits Amerigo saddles a tree size narrower than the horse truly measures. I've come to agree her in most cases.

"The idea is that they are made that way because they expect a saddler to modify them to fit the horse exactly. It works better to take wool out than to put it in as that avoids the danger of producing lumps."

In ref to the hard panels... AMEN. For a little while there whoever they had on the bench in Italy was really cramming them full. I've got several in our shop that I need to drop the panels on and soften up. It's got nothing to do with them wanting a fitter to take flocking out, but more to do with holes in quality control. These are not saddles that are easy to work on (compared to say, a County with stitched-down panels and easy to access flocking holes). They can be a bit cumbersome and to do a really nice job, you've got to drop the panels, do the work and them lace it back up. They also don't lay the flocking down in nice layers, but rather in little synthetic "flocking balls" if you will, which can make creating a very soft, uniform bearing surface hard to achieve. The less mucking about in an Amerigo or Vega panel, the better!

[mvp]

NC SaddleFitter-- can you clue the American ammies among us in about trees measured in cm?

Where are these Euro-saddlers measuring? Between the bottoms of the tree's points---- deep inside the saddle?

My decently-wide horse was pronounced a 34 cm in a Prestige tree. This was from wither tracings. That's about 13"!

As far as I can tell, that bears no relationship the appreciable measurement so many of us use-- distance between the "dots" at the front of the panels. My horse here would like a 5" or 5.5".

See what I mean?

I know there is no standard for qualitative sizes, but how do we translate between inches and cm.s when the tree-makers seem to be measuring different dimensions?

[yellowbritches]

I have nothing useful to add other than "AHHH!!! Tip!!!" He looks great!! :D:yes:

And wondering how he managed to survive with us. Maybe he's getting crotchety in his middle age. ;):lol:

[JB]

mvp, I'm certainly not NCSaddleFitter :lol: but from what I know, the width measurement used by the saddlers is done on the raw tree, at/near the end of the points.

So, that's why narrow/medium/wide are not really comparable between brands, or even makes, because it matters how long the points are, how much stuffing is put between them, etc.

[mvp]

Thanks JB. I thought I was SOL for the reasons you mentioned.

A little rant. People (read: saddle builders, pushers and their cartel) I'm not having one more saddle shipped to me for a trial (or even a bad one where you can't ride in the thing) until y'all can give me some measurements.

There's no point in spending $70 to figure out how to translate between even measuring systems. I can convert inches to cm.. I can't measure the distance between the points of the tree at the bottom. I also can't tell you how one of these relates to the "dot-to-dot" measurement. But the real problem is that neither can the retailers.

I should feel better... but I don't. Still bitter. F-It I'm going to a horse show.

[JB]

I know, it makes it very, very difficult.

Sometimes the best you can do is have a private seller measure between the dots. At least that way if they say 6", that's pretty wide, and 3" is pretty freakin' narrow, no matter if they both say they're a medium tree.

But try to get that information from a bigger tack shop and forget it.

And even beyond that, that tells you nothing about the angle of the front of the tree.

And beyond THAT, trying to get a picture of the rear view is, well, forget it. I have only been able to find the few I have via begging people I discover have one, or finding one for sale on photobucket or somewhere, or SmartPak, believe it or not, actually has multiple good views, including from the rear, of several saddles.

[Bearhunter]

My horse has a huge shoulder and prominent withers like yours. I have been through 4 saddles (2 custom) trying to find the perfect fit. Finally, had an Amerigo made for him. We are both very happy. :)

[NCSaddleFitter]

NC SaddleFitter-- can you clue the American ammies among us in about trees measured in cm?

Where are these Euro-saddlers measuring? Between the bottoms of the tree's points---- deep inside the saddle?

Trees are measured before the saddle is assembled at a point designated by the manufacturer. It is impossible for me to give someone a tree measurement without totally stripping down the saddle and exposing the head of the saddle (and knowing exactly where to measure). Which is one reason why you will not get a satisfactory answer from a retailer. You would think the manufacturer would help the retailer in this aspect... wrong. Some companies will not allow anyone outside of the company to see a bare, stripped down tree. I guess they think revealing the design will compromise national security or something.

The "dot to dot" measurement is a bit of a joke in the saddle fitting community; it's a pretty bogus measurement. If it makes you feel better, sure, I'll give it to you, but it won't help you fit the saddle or tell me anything about your horse's saddle needs.

My decently-wide horse was pronounced a 34 cm in a Prestige tree. This was from wither tracings. That's about 13"!

As far as I can tell, that bears no relationship the appreciable measurement so many of us use-- distance between the "dots" at the front of the panels. My horse here would like a 5" or 5.5".

The way Prestige measures for their own saddles is actually a pretty good system. You do two measurements to come up with the final width determination, and even then, it's more a range than a clear-cut size. This is why 34cm does not equal 13in.

The tacks/dots bear little to no relation to the tree, it's width or its angle and arc. They are mostly decorative and can be placed anywhere on the pommel. It is for this same reason that getting an accurate seat size measurement is difficult. It's the same problem with the tack located under the skirt of the saddle; it's placement can be pretty arbitrary as well. Considering most well-made saddles are assembled by hand and you are putting your measurement system at the mercy of the man on the bench and human error. If they get the flocking wrong, do you think they place the tacks at the same point on every saddle every time?

You'd cringe if you knew how many saddles get sent to retailers with uneven panels, billets, stitching, etc. Even the very high end ones. It takes a patient, trained retailer to spot these mistakes before the saddle is "fit" to a horse. Sometimes even then things get through to the consumer. Worse yet, a lot of the rejects get bought up by wholesalers and marketed on eBay or "deal of the day" type scenarios. Guess what... final sale, buddy.

I know there is no standard for qualitative sizes, but how do we translate between inches and cm.s when the tree-makers seem to be measuring different dimensions?

You can't, and neither can I.

In the past 20 years, horses have changed, riding has changed, competition schedules have changed and so saddles have changed. Saddles have become terribly specific in their fit and purpose. New models come out all the time. Keeping up with the industry is near impossible for me, so believe me, I really feel for the consumer. My job is maddening - I've left fittings in tears because I just can't get it right either.

So what's to be done? Be patient and keep trying things. Ask questions. Request better pictures (BTW, a lot of websites charge the retailer for extra pics which is why you won't always see a bazillion angles on a retail site. That's our excuse, anyway...:))

Enough of this. I have the day off and I'm going to go ride my mare. Bareback!:cool:

[Renn/aissance]

JB, thanks for the tips on the wither tracing. I'll go back and get a tracing 2" behind the scapula and make sure that I have a good concept of how far his shoulder blade moves forward.

Another fitter told me a few years back that she always fits Amerigo saddles a tree size narrower than the horse truly measures. I've come to agree her in most cases.

That is very interesting and I will keep that in mind as I look at them. :yes: Guess it's a good thing that I got a medium tree Vega demo instead of a medium-wide.

I have nothing useful to add other than "AHHH!!! Tip!!!" He looks great!!

And wondering how he managed to survive with us. Maybe he's getting crotchety in his middle age.

He's TOTALLY changed shape in the last three years! He is working different parts (although I think he would say he likes working with his eventing parts better than, say, his "no, you have to get on the bit and come round, I SAID COME ROUND!" parts!) He's doing great, though. :)

The "dot to dot" measurement is a bit of a joke in the saddle fitting community; it's a pretty bogus measurement. If it makes you feel better, sure, I'll give it to you, but it won't help you fit the saddle or tell me anything about your horse's saddle needs.

I'm glad you said that, because when I was selling saddles (I have had several at this point in my life--more than anyone my age riding the number of horses that I have should have had) people would always ask me for that measurement and I'd give it to them while thinking, "And what exactly do you hope to accomplish with that?"

You'd cringe if you knew how many saddles get sent to retailers with uneven panels, billets, stitching, etc. Even the very high end ones.

I wouldn't! I've taken several on trial to sit on my horse only to call the retailer and say, "Um, the panels on this saddle are uneven. Oh yes they are. Yes I'm sure. I'll bring it back in and you'll see." And sure enough... :rolleyes:

NCSaddleFitter, thanks for weighing in. I'm perversely glad that this whole process is as much as a royal pain for you as it is for us!

The saddle update from me is that I jumped Tip in the Devoucoux today and I felt his shoulder come up over the fence, which is great. I can't tell you how long it's been since I felt him really use himself. Checked his back afterward and even when I really leaned on him and put down a lot of pressure, there was no flinching, no shifting, no moving around! I'm inclined to take that as evidence over the weird sweat marks on his back, which I think were actually caused by the different materials on my saddle pad (cotton in some areas, grip pad in others.) We might have a winner, if I can find a duplicate of the Devoucoux I've been borrowing. It gives him a ton of wither clearance and wiggle room (what I think MVP means by Cathedral Effect,) sits nicely behind his shoulder, doesn't pinch, doesn't rock, doesn't roll, doesn't slide back, doesn't shift forward, and best of all, it makes my leg look ten times better than it actually is. This must be too good to be true. Someone tell me where's the hole! :lol:

[Quinn]

Renn, that sounds fabulous! Not too good to be true but just GOOD!!!!!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[JB]

Another fitter told me a few years back that she always fits Amerigo saddles a tree size narrower than the horse truly measures. I've come to agree her in most cases.

Could you explain more about this please? :)

[Renn/aissance]

Today Tip and I had a visit from Erik, the Mid-atlantic Devoucoux rep. I found him to be extremely knowledgeable, helpful, and professional. Upon seeing Tip for the first time, he isolated the three trouble points: big shoulder, decent sized wither, short back. At that point he said, "OK, so we will probably need a thinner shoulder panel but need to build up by the wither." Already we were miles ahead from the last try. ;)

The long and short of it is that in two months I will be the proud owner of a Devoucoux that will hopefully fit both Tip and me. I am pretty confident that it will. It will have very thin (VERY thin!) panels over the shoulder so as not to interfere with range of motion, but still allowing me to put a regular saddle pad underneath (this can be a problem.) I said that my horse is very sensitive to wither contact and the saddle will be built up to provide a ton of wither and spine clearance. We'll have that nice wide gullet that I liked in the Antares but with a more built up panel so that the saddle sits evenly from front to back and doesn't roll. And for me, the flap will be nice and forward, but not forward enough to inhibit the shoulder. Is anyone else reminded a little of the composite photo I made up? :)

Now we wait--with hope! I have to say that Erik seemed very mindful of customer service and when we discussed "OK, so what happens if I get it and it doesn't fit?" he pointed out several times that you have to listen to the horse and make the saddle fit the horse, not make the horse fit the saddle. That is not the attitude I've heard from some other manufacturers and it was refreshing to hear.

(As an addendum, I also tried the Vega on Tip. It was really interesting. From pommel back, it was great. However, the panel configuration over the shoulder meant that it only touched his shoulder in one place, and there it was very tight. I could fit four fingers horizontally between shoulder and panel closer to his wither. I sat it on my sister's horse, a typical shark-fin Thoroughbred type, and it did the same on his shoulder. I just found that very interesting.)

[Renn/aissance]

It has been a full year to the day... and the epic saddle search is OVER!

I ordered a Devoucoux for Tip in late May and it was delivered the second week of July, a nearly perfect fit. I say nearly perfect because he had changed shape a bit and as the saddle started to break in, it was coming close to those withers. The rep returned to look at it and I sent the saddle back for the panels to be adjusted. Unfortunately, while this adjustment was an improvement, it was still not perfect because of the asymmetry of Tip's shoulders. It's a structural issue, not a training one, and so it wasn't going to be changing much.

Today, one of the Devoucoux master saddlers from France came to the barn to fit the saddle to Tip on the spot. It was agreed that his left shoulder needed more room and that the saddle was sitting more on the shoulder than behind it. The panels were adjusted in the tack room while Tip munched hay in his stall, and when I hopped up into the new and improved saddle, Tip moved out with a loose, relaxed back and a swingy gait, with a free left shoulder. Happy backs make happy horses and happy horses make happy riders!

I have heard a lot about Devoucoux's customer service on this board, and not all of it has been good. I found their customer service to be excellent. While I didn't love the wait time between getting the saddle and getting the saddle perfect, everyone I spoke to was friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and committed to helping me get this right. To me, the fact that they are willing to fly a master saddler into the States from France and fit the horses at their home barns speaks volumes of the company's dedication to making sure their customers receive the best product possible. I look forward to working with them again when my sister starts shopping for her own Devoucoux in December!

[mvp]

So glad you are happy-- partly because I like a happy ending to a saddle hunt, and partly because it speaks well of a the saddle company that can please you. I don't recall you being a PITA, but certainly more knowledgeable than the average bear about saddle fit. I'm really glad your effort (and Devoucoux's) paid off.

Out of curiousity: How did the imported guru adjust the saddle on the spot? Did he mess with the panels? But they're foam, right? So how?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[mvp]

So glad you are happy-- partly because I like a happy ending to a saddle hunt, and partly because it speaks well of a the saddle company that can please you. I don't recall you being a PITA, but certainly more knowledgeable than the average bear about saddle fit. I'm really glad your effort (and Devoucoux's) paid off.

Out of curiosity: How did the imported guru adjust the saddle on the spot? Did he mess with the panels? But they're foam, right? So how?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Renn/aissance]

He did mess with the panels. He had a whole kit in the car. He glued new foam to the panels and shaped it with a belt sander. It was freaking SWEET. :yes:

[TheOrangeOne]

I love my devoucoux. Took a little longer to come in than I expected, but it's the best saddle I have ever owned. It's a shame I am not facing some issues though, since I have a thing for eric and would jump at an excuse to see him more often. :lol:

[Renn/aissance]

Seriously Grace--what is it with saddle fitters and being really attractive? :lol:

[Sooster]

I am so relieved to read a positive post in regard to the Devoucoux. I ordered mine a couple weeks ago and worried a bit with all the negative stories. Our No. Cal Rep is fantastic! I can't wait for it to come in as it is my first "new" saddle. I hope my horse is happy with it also.

[TheOrangeOne]

Renn, I don't even know, but every time I see the man I leave all giddy like I'm back in the 8th grade and just talked to the captain of the football team. :rolleyes: I'm too young for him, sadly. He said so. :no: