Funky canter--swaps behind, odd movement--long with videos

[jen-s]

My BO bought a mare, Willow, in March that supposedly had been eventing Novice despite having time off last summer/early fall and just getting back into consistent work this winter.. However, since we got her home, the mare has seemed NQR, especially in the canter. She was fine at the time of purchase, but since she's been unbalanced, especially to the right, and has really struggled to figure out where to put her body and her feet. My BO is currently riding with an eventing trainer (who has ridden the mare a number of times) and a LBNT who does dressage only and has also ridden the mare a time or two. Things seemed to be getting better as Willow was building strength and bonding with Susan, but lately, she's started swapping off her lead behind. Mostly going to the right, but sometimes to the left as well. The vet has checked her over and things seem to be fine, but it looks to me that Willow's hind end movement is wonky. It's especially evident if she's cantering away from you.

So, dear COTHers, please take a look at these videos and offer any advice. I'm sorry that the quality isn't better, but I was videoing from the back of a horse during a lesson when the flies were out. :no: The last video is probably the best for seeing what is going on.

TIA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmZVHrzgxig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6iRQTq8meo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftAWXEXvAnA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKfaaIxzqu8

[farmgirl88]

we have a rescue mare who cross-canters all the time. we dont know why and we dont care because she's a companion and she hangs out. but she cannot canter normally. for the most part she has never limped, just lost her ability to canter properly

COuld it be that this mare has too much contact on her face? From the videos, shes too collected. Let her go and have some freedom and see what she does. Could also be the footing. i have had many of a horse i have ridden that swapped out due to hard footing

[SBT]

Screams "back-sore" to me! Have you had a saddle fitter out? How about a chiropractor? My horse only ever does that short, hoppy, swapping-out canter when his back hurts. :(

[Posting Trot]

It's hard to see much of what is going on from the videos. The horse is clearly resisting picking up the canter, although in the final video the rider (with some coaching from someone on the ground) does seem to get her into the canter pretty well.

If the horse was going well, and then suddenly started acting weird about the canter, then I'd guess a physical problem. If the horse has always had this problem since her owner got her, then it could either be physical pain or else she's just not strong enough yet to really carry herself.

The horse is sticking her nose up in the air and going around inverted. Again this could be a response to pain somewhere or it could just be that she needs more strength through her back and training to use the correct muscles.

How does she canter in the field (no tack, no rider)? How does she canter on a lunge-line without tack? With tack? If she looks better without the rider, then the rider may be doing two things that are inhibiting the horse: gripping too strongly with the legs, and (perhaps unconsciously) pulling back with the reins and driving her legs forward (bracing herself) as the horse moves forward into canter.

I'm sure others will chime in as well.

Good luck.

[twofatponies]

COuld it be that this mare has too much contact on her face? From the videos, shes too collected. Let her go and have some freedom and see what she does.

I'd try testing this aspect too - it strikes me that she drops back into the trot, or half trots, or changes leads possibly because she's being held back a little too much, and second-guessing the rider - i.e. "I'm going, wait, does she want me to stop? wait, no I'll go". Some horses are more sensitive to that information than others. Maybe try some cantering with a draping rein, just resting hands on her neck, staying in a half seat, all the way around the arena, and see if she can get some rhythm and balance coming through that way. if that works, then do cantering like that a few laps around regularly, in both directions, to help build her up, then work on a slower more controlled canter when she's got more confidence and coordination.

If she still hesitates and swaps in that context, then look at the saddle fit.

[joiedevie99]

Could be back sore or SI sore to me- but it seems more like rider to me. The horse is barely moving in the trot- not coming through- so I certainly wouldn't be sitting the trot yet. Sitting, holding, and collecting all require more muscle development and throughness than I see here. Go out in a big field, post the trot and stay in jumping position in the canter. Just have fun and canter gallop some laps around.

[TB or not TB?]

Check out RH stifle. Looked like she was having trouble articulating it.

[goeslikestink]

My BO bought a mare, Willow, in March that supposedly had been eventing Novice despite having time off last summer/early fall and just getting back into consistent work this winter.. However, since we got her home, the mare has seemed NQR, especially in the canter. She was fine at the time of purchase, but since she's been unbalanced, especially to the right, and has really struggled to figure out where to put her body and her feet. My BO is currently riding with an eventing trainer (who has ridden the mare a number of times) and a LBNT who does dressage only and has also ridden the mare a time or two. Things seemed to be getting better as Willow was building strength and bonding with Susan, but lately, she's started swapping off her lead behind. Mostly going to the right, but sometimes to the left as well. The vet has checked her over and things seem to be fine, but it looks to me that Willow's hind end movement is wonky. It's especially evident if she's cantering away from you.

So, dear COTHers, please take a look at these videos and offer any advice. I'm sorry that the quality isn't better, but I was videoing from the back of a horse during a lesson when the flies were out. :no: The last video is probably the best for seeing what is going on.

TIA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmZVHrzgxig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6iRQTq8meo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftAWXEXvAnA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKfaaIxzqu8


thats becuase she socking her in the mouth and not asking her to canter
little tip shes no more a trianer than a an average joe bloggs rider and the whip also gives that one away as it on the worng side
ditch her and find someone else before she ruins your horse
she rides like a sack of spuds

[pony89]

My mare has issues at times holding her right lead behind through the corners. It used to be a real problem. My trainer had me pretty much drop the reins at the canter. Amazingly enough, her problems were mostly my fault:uhoh: Isn't that how it usually goes!!:lol: I was snatching at one rein or the other and yanking her off balance through the corners.

It is still something we have to work on. The vet didn't see any issues that cause it. I notice that the more regularly I ride her and work her evenly on both sides, the more I make sure she is nice and supple in both directions, and the more I really make her work at the walk and trot, the better she is.

I found myself making her canter less on her right lead because she struggled, while I would canter extensively to the left. I made myself start cantering twice as often to the right, and amazingly :eek: it has helped tremendously! Surprise, surprise! I really think it is a strength and balance issue for my mare, and I wasn't helping her to cultivate her ability to canter on that lead. At this point, she'll maybe drop it once in a ride, usually when she is fatigued. It used to feel like I was riding an egg beater!

I'm no lameness expert, though, so I won't try to comment on your video, other than to say try cantering her on a totally loose rein. Hold the front of your saddle if you have to in order to ensure that you don't touch her mouth at all. Also, try not to shift your weight dramatically. If she holds the lead, it's the rider :D

[jen-s]

Thanks for the replies. All good ideas and all things that we've discussed in some fashion. The rider is the owner, not the trainer, but the mare has swapped off behind with at least one of the trainers if not both. They are working on getting her to stretch out and relax, but this mare has developed some very bad habits from prior to being at our barn so this is coming along very slowly. Some of those were disclosed during the sale, some not so much.

Yes, the sitting trot was more shuffling than sitting, but there was method behind this to see if going into the canter from a more "sedate" trot would help with the balance in the transitions. I'm sorry that I wasn't closer to the ring so that you could hear what our trainer was saying but my plan was to be far enough away to get a decent video as I can't adjust my zoom once the filming has started (crap camera!). Believe me, we've tried (and are trying) anything that we can think of to see if this helps.

No, a saddle fitter has not seen this horse, but the saddle fit has been checked by both trainers and wasn't thought to be the cause. I haven't seen the horse being lunged, so I can't speak for what happens then, but I'll watch tomorrow and find out. The idea of chiro came up in our last lesson, as did massage and bringing the vet back out. Susan is a caring, dedicated owner and she will certainly pursue those. I will say that I've palpated her back (again this morning) as has Susan and our trainer with no negative or concerning responses from Willow, but again, I'm not a professional and am the first to admit it.

We had a new trimmer out this morning (the mare is barefoot and Susan had a natural trim guy take a peak) and his assessment was that she is dragging her right hind toe and he also recommended chiro/bodywork/vet, so that seems to be a good place to start.

Again, thanks for all of the responses. Willow is one of the sweetest girls I've ever met and on days that she's "on," OMG is she stunning! (Not that we would love her less if she was fugly!) Please feel free to ask any questions and offer any advice. Owner isn't a COTHer, but I will be forwarding her this thread to read. I absolutely love how valuable a resource this is and am very grateful for all advice rendered. Susan will be as well.

[tpup]

Well I am not a canter expert, but it looks like the horse is confused - the rider doesn't seem decisive about wanting her to canter, and then seems to hold her back from cantering so she goes back to trot. The trot is also not a good, moving trot which I think she should have before asking for the canter. I was also always taught to ask for canter in the same place each time to start (pick a corner of the ring and ask there) to set the horse up for success and aid in teaching.

I also think something is up with the right hind and it could be hocks. My horse would not take a right canter lead at all. He also cross cantered. Long story short, he had terribly arthritic hocks now much better with injections, a good supplement and Previcox. He started taking the right lead immediately after the first set of injections.

Sometimes when I have canter trouble, I take off the bit and ride in a halter or hackamore and voila! Horsey is much more relaxed and canters better. It would be interesting to see what the horse would do with the reins tied - try a "passenger lesson" in ring. Just get her to canter and let her go where she wants. She seems to be pulling which isn't helping. Good luck and pretty mare!

[brummelhorsefarm]

We have a green mare that has a similar problem. She isn't quite sure where to place her feet yet and swaps in and out of leads.

The mare gets confused easily about what her job is at the canter, so I found that putting a confident and competent rider on her is key. She does well when she is slightly bent to the inside to keep her on the same lead. Once she establishes a rhythmic and correct canter, she is congratulated and we begin working on something else.

Hope this helps! :)

[FairWeather]

I'm seeing LH Stifle, but only watched the last video.
I'd work at the trot up hills and over cavaletti, or in tall grass to strengthen the rear end for a few weeks and see what I had after that.

What breed is it? Looks gaited to me actually.

[slc2]

I hate to but it really needs to be said.

The rider has a strangle hold on the horse's head, with a very short rein creating a stiff, upright neck and head carriage and a very slow, shuffling gait, with the rider constantly hitting the horse in the mouth and trying to make it go slower, and slower, and slower, while telling it to 'canter'. The horse is incorrectly bent and the head carriage causes the horse's back to be dropped and the horse to be crooked, so she cannot pick up her lead behind and canter. At one point the horse actually crow hops, the rider is saying to canter and at the same time, restricting her head and neck so much she can't move forward.

I don't see anything but a confused, restricted horse in a tiny riding area, with a rider who will not allow her to go forward and is constantly 'riding the brakes', and expects her to canter when she is so crooked, so slow, so stiff and so restricted, she couldn't possibly canter.

Every time the rider goes by the open gate, the horse almost goes out the gate. The rider can't control or steer the horse around the riding area. Shut the gate and teach the rider to steer and to use her legs and reins.

In the last video, the rider finally allows the horse to move a tiny bit, and she picks up the canter lead and holds it every single time, and she holds the lead til the rider knocks her off it. I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with this horse physically.

My suggestion would be to get the rider a different instructor, get the rider and horse out of the tiny ring into a large ring with a closed gate (not a field, and no jumping til she can control the horse and steer better), and not allow the rider to hold the reins so short and tight, and let the horse get into a more comfortable posture. She needs to ride the horse forward, and stop being so hard with the hands. The horse needs to be in a rounder posture with a more relaxed loose and lowered forward neck, and she needs to be straighter.

Get a trainer to ride the horse for a little while and let her go forward, put the rider on a longe line and take the reins away from her and teach her to sit the horse, or get her to GO FORWARD, and lengthen the reins. Put her in a larger riding area with a closed gate, and work on steering and letting the horse move forward. Such a nice horse.

[Carol Ames]

I did not see the problem you described:no:; but, would gt a massage therapist and vet. chiro :yes:out to look at her Often the sacroiliac / pelvis can be rotated slightly; When ridden forward into the halt does she leave one hind leg behind before squaring up?

[jen-s]

Thanks again for all of the great advice. If you will, please keep things positive and constructive. This mare is not the easiest ride and you're only seeing a small glimpse of her. She and her owner and their trainers are working on low and long (sometimes we all have moments that we oops and backslide), but that is definitely not this mare's natural carriage. She remains inverted even in the field. A better quality video showing more of the complete ride would certainly give a more comprehensive idea of what we're up against, but she is slowly coming around.

I have had the same thoughts as some of you and posted this on COTH to see if by chance anyone out there concurred with me or if I was totally off-base. Personal gratification aside, I don't want to feel like I need to edit this thread before I can send it to the owner. Can we please just come together and help without the snark?

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to read and offer advice. I promise that it will be shared with the owner/rider and trainers and as the mare (and her owner) improves, I'll update everyone.

[Petstorejunkie]

I would suspect that the mare has weak stifles or a weak SI/loin area that is being exacerbated by the confusing equitation. If she is traveling inverted out in the pasture then we really should look at some conformation shots of the mare to see if there is a reason for it.
SLC's advice is spot on. Unfortunately if the owner is not willing to entertain the thought that she may be contributing to the problem, then neither has any hope of resolution.
A horse cannot canter balanced if it cannot walk or trot balanced.

[nightsong]

ALWAYS check for physical problems FIRST. I'd say BACK. It's dropped, obviously. Rider doesn't seem skilled enough to be allowed to canter. Needs independent hands, strong seat, balance, CONFIDENCE, etc. etc. etc.

[slc2]

Actually, OP, this horse looks like an angel, in an open field it canters around like a little angel as soon as it is given the slightest freedom in the neck for a second. The poor animal is trying SO hard to do what it is asked that it's a damned shame, to be honest. If it is 'hot' or 'difficult' it's because of the way it's being ridden because this sort of riding makes a horse VERY sore in the back! I saw the poor thing crow hop, she's so confused and frustrated! It isn't allowed to MOVE! A horse with a little bit of length to its back can't move or balance if it isn't allowed some freedom to move forward!

For those who said the back is incorrectly dropped, that is because of the riding. In the field when allowed to move the slightest bit forward the back comes up and the horse canters on united. She is trying SO hard to tell you!

And no, I see no physical issue - nothing - all rider induced. Poor horse. Horses as always, they try so hard to tell us what is wrong, they try so hard before they get frustrated and start acting out.

It IS positive and constructive to say it because if something doesn't change the situation is going to get worse, first they stop even trying and then they start trying to get out of the ring and balking and rearing. A horse cannot canter when he is held in like this, it is impossible, though the walk and the trot have the exact same problems.

I speak up for the horse's sake - and unfortunately, truthfully, if you have the heart to listen. We all have to learn this one day and for some it is a much more bitter pill to swallow. "It can't be my riding" can be a very, very bad thing with horses.

Don't look at the horse for the rider's mistakes! Don't look for a 'condition' when it is one's own riding!

[Lieslot]

Videos are a bit difficult to see well & really say much, I lean towards what others said, weak stifles. But then again I'm hot on this subject right now, having a problem with that on my own horse, so maybe I'm jumping to conclusions too quick.

I certainly would give this horse freedom again in front, take it out of the ring, work in field or on long straight line hacks, so it can find its own balance before I'd restrict it more in front.
If she's held to tight and forced upfront then she can't work her hindend correctly and may cause her to feel tight & sore in ndend and back.
How about just lots of really forward trot (tons of leg) and just ride her off the buckle and see if that at least gets her to relax before you pick up the front again. Just a thought.
Obviously if the mare is difficult to ride, it may be very easy on all of us to say do this, do that, as we don't have her under us.

[Saidapal]

I'm with goeslikestink and slc2 on this one. Get off the poor horses face and let her move. Take her into a nice field and let her roll. She's trying her hardest and is being horribly restricted, which will make her sore, which will start a vicious circle. If your current trainer is too afraid to let her go, find someone who will. She's looks pretty darned sweet so I doubt if she'll run off, but if she does, oh, well. I bet she won't go far. She'll probably run out just for the sheer joy of being able to.

This appears to be the common problem of collecting in the front instead of pushing through and containing the energy. I don't see either a working trot or a working canter from this mare. I see horribly restricted.

Give the horse a pat and a treat from me.

[PicturePerfectPonies]

If physical symptoms are ruled out...

The rider could be shifting her weight as well. My friends mare used to do the exact same thing if the rider shifted their weight incorrectly even the tiniest bit. My trainer would put kids up on her to teach them to sit centered and balanced. And im not talking shifting to the inside asking for a lead change weight shift. I'm talking maybe their right side is stronger than the left so going through corners they over compensate. From the ground you couldn't even see the riders shift weight but if Gypsy swapped behind you knew they had. My horse would do the same but swap the front as well (ive seen him do one tempis with a very unbalanced rider).

[AppendixQHLover]

My horse does that also sometimes. There are two reasons he does it. One he needs his chiro adjustment done and Two: I am in his way and knocking him off-balance.

I get my guy chiro'd every few months. We are also going to start massage therapy. (I am not telling hubby about the massages he will get)

[spurgirl]

I'm in agreement that this mare is too restricted by the rider...It looks like she is being told to go-and then slow!, at the same time. Is this person a fearful/timid rider? I would like to see a totally relaxed, experienced rider on this mare ask for a nice little canter. She looks like a really sweet horse, and a bit of a confused one, too...Not trying to be snarky about the rider, many of us have been there too ( not 100% confident...) Good luck with her, she is a very attractive mare.

[Perfect Pony]

I'm in agreement with others on two points:

1) rider needs to give mare more freedom in the face - I had a very hot mare that I was constantly trying to "hold back" and once I learned to control her speed with my seat, we had so much fun together.

2) I don't think any of us could say for sure, but it really screams stifle issues and possible meniscus tear. I'd get some films and an ultrasound of both stifles and rule out any physical issues.

I agree 100%. Always give the horse the benefit of the doubt.

I am absolutely sick that I did not listen more to my gut and the little voice inside much sooner than I did with my mare. She too had issues cantering (however no where near as bad as this horse). I had her checked by many vets who proclaimed her sound, unbalanced, not fit enough, etc. I was also told she was not lame so they could not do a lameness evaluation on her. She just slightly drug the right hind, and was resistant about cantering.

Fast forward to a month ago where after a year of fitness and dressage training she still just was not where I thought she should be, and was resistant where it was not in her nature to be. I took her to a clinic and went through all the testing they recommended and insisted on full hind end xrays even though they were not indicated (they thought we should try blistering the stifle to see if it helped). Sure enough, she had an OCD lesion in her right stifle and was in surgery the next day! The vets were shocked, I felt relieved and am kicking myself today for not insisting on rads long ago.

I KNEW something was bothering my wonderful mare. This mare looks bothered by more than the rider.

[AnotherRound]

I agree with everyone about the sore issues with the horse. There are back issues and stifle issues. Why? A vet can diagnose, then you can speculate.

However, your riding is exacerbating whatever she is struggling with.

Your saddle is way up on her neck. She can't get her front end out in front of her with you up there.

You are hanging on her mouth like a trapeze. Let her go. Let her head drop down, down down. What's that all about? Most the time in those videos, you were telling her not to move out into a long low canter, you were hauling on her. Get off her mouth, give her her head and get a saddle and crupper if needed to get back onto her back. If she has back and stifle problems, you will not be doing her a service. This mare isn't sound to ride, and you aren't able to ride her.

[goeslikestink]

I agree with everyone about the sore issues with the horse. There are back issues and stifle issues. Why? A vet can diagnose, then you can speculate.

However, your riding is exacerbating whatever she is struggling with.

Your saddle is way up on her neck. She can't get her front end out in front of her with you up there.

You are hanging on her mouth like a trapeze. Let her go. Let her head drop down, down down. What's that all about? Most the time in those videos, you were telling her not to move out into a long low canter, you were hauling on her. Get off her mouth, give her her head and get a saddle and crupper if needed to get back onto her back. If she has back and stifle problems, you will not be doing her a service. This mare isn't sound to ride, and you aren't able to ride her.

agree funny how this mare was alright in the beginning the rider is making this mare sore as she not balanced so other mussles are being abused that shouldnt be
this horse in question will be either a git to ride later or in terriable pain ;later as if she keeps riding her the way she is then the horse will end up having permenant damage such a shame for a nice looking horse thats obviously trying to understand what the rider asking
but the rider isnt sending a clear direct signal so horse is confused and horse gets the blame

its all rider error -------- period

and what makes me laugh is you say she having lessons with an eventing trianer etc
mate they would have nipped that one in the bud in the 1st lesson if they were decent and anyone that cant perform the baisic of a half halt stride or teach it isnt worth p the pot

tell your bo to give her up to someone that will treat this nice little horse with respect

[pines4equines]

I'm inclined to think a pain issue.

I've seen plenty of rotten riders on school horses hanging on their mouths, bouncing around and the horse is able to maintain a canter lead. Again, I would have the horse checked out. A previous poster mentioned stifles. I would e-mail my vet these YouTube videos and then schedule a visit. Maybe a follow up with a chiro as well.

[Marli]

OP-

I don't believe that anyone is setting out to offend. I also realize that the videos are only short 'windows' to try to determine why this mare is so unsettled, her problems with a canter. I watched the videos too and all I will say, in my opinion, is that this horse and this rider are not a match- at least not at this time. Someone else wrote something to the effect that this rider is compounding the problem for the mare, and I agree. Appears to hold a death grip on the mares mouth, looks like total confusion for the mare as to exactly what the rider is asking her to do, too much restricted freedom of movement. It's like the mare is asked to go forward but then as she does she's held back on her mouth. At least that's the impression I'm getting while viewing the videos. Not meaning to hurt the riders feelings at all but this mare should be ridden by someone with experience, that can let her move more freely and signals clear decisive cues to her. You wrote that she was fine at the time of purchase- but this problem initiated after the sale (ie; different rider). With continued riding like this it's very possible that she is going to end up being sore somewhere (if she already isn't/which is very possible due to this combination and the time she's already ridden her under saddle).

I'd give her some time off- and seek someone else with experience on her back next time she's taken out to be ridden. JMHO. Please understand, comments are not meant to offend but you asked for a critque of possible problems/what others opinions are of watching the movement (and rider).

[Catalina]

I have been having the exact same problem with my horse. He came to me with the propensity to swap behind (and he came from an Advanced level eventer). He is very bridle lame, has more upward impulsion then forward, is quite crooked at the canter, especially to the right and inverts and locks his jaw. I actually just posted on the Eventing board about fixing the crooked canter and got a ton of good advice.

What kind of bit is the rider using? Put the mildest one possible in to encourage the horse to reach for it.

Just yesterday, I decided to change things up with my guy after another discouraging ride that was more battle then enjoyment. I gave him a different bit (full cheek French-link), no flash, loooooose draw reins to discourage inverting and I really worked on riding straight. We cantered several circles and laps around the ring with no swapping :D. And he stretched down into the contact and moved forward at the same time.

[Catalina]

Also, get a chiro out- they really do help.

[grayarabpony]

Horse looks very very unhappy with the rider. I'd check for saddle fit and soreness.

[pony89]

OP, if you end up pointing the OP at this thread, I hope you will tell her not to be discouraged at the recommendations to change her riding.

It can be a little painful to really evaluate yourself, but if you take the opportunity to improve your riding, the rewards can be huge! You will be happier, the horse will be happier, and every horse you ride after this will be better off for the work you put into improving yourself. It is hard to be told that something is your fault (believe me, I've been there!) But it is actually the thing that you have the most power to change!

I think it is possible that there is something wrong with the horse. Certainly, there are schoolhorses that put up with beginners banging around on their back and yanking on their mouths and can hold a correct lead. Of course, there is a difference between a 50 lb beginner, and a 120+lb adult, and their influence on a horse's balance, plus a more advanced rider is doing more to consciously influence the horse - maybe correctly, and maybe not.

Even so, the best way to tell if there is something wrong is to ride the horse without interfering with her, and teach her to use herself correctly and in a balanced fashion. Until you have that, you can't really evaluate the horse correctly. If I flop around and yank at my 13.2 pony, I can knock her right off her lead, and it's not because she's lame. It's because I'm riding like a sack of potatoes!

I have a feeling that there is something a little wonky that causes my mare to have to work harder to hold that right lead. But she appears to be 100% sound, she's not asked to work excessively hard, isn't asked to compete or jump, and when ridden regularly and correctly, doesn't have a problem. It just doesn't seem to be something worth thousands of dollars in diagnostics and a lengthly recovery, when it seems to be prevented totally when I make sure she's in shape and don't yank at her while I'm riding.

If this mare were mine, the first and easiest thing I would do would be to try the loose rein test, sitting up very straight and balanced, just so I had the information on what happened if I did that. I probably would have the vet out, just because it's a new issue. If the vet didn't find something obvious, I'd focus on my riding next, maybe giving her a week off and then having a good trainer ride her exclusively for a couple weeks after that, just to see, then using that information to really work hard at my own riding. If still no success, I'd talk to my vet about more extensive diagnostics at that time

[sdlbredfan]

I agree on all of the observations with regard to saddle is too far forward, horse not muscled up enough for rider to sit the trot and rider needs to get out of the saddle into half seat and get out of this sweet horse's face and allow her to go forward. Ideally, find a large field where she can go forward for awhile without needing to turn, and let her have her head.

If you look carefully at the Willow as she walks, you will see that the right hind leg, particularly in stifle area, does not appear to move as fluidly or as far in range of motion as the left. If Willow does have some trouble with right hind, I would expect her to have even more trouble cantering on the left lead, does she?

[Denzel]

I definitely agree doing a full work-up on hind legs, I have heard of quite a number of OCD cases where the only symptoms were inability to carry a certain canter lead behind.

[Paragon]

I don't have an eye for lameness, but I caught myself trying not to call out "Forward! Forward! Forward!" as I watched. Off the face, moving forward would help an awful lot, from what I saw.

[BelladonnaLily]

I can't really tell what is going on with the mare (truthfully I only watched 2 videos) because it looks like the rider is so in her face she can't really do anything. I'd give her her head and let her go forward before I tried evaluating her canter. Also, at the trot she looks uncomfortable...I'd post the trot until both rider and horse are more balanced and going forward. She looks painful.

So, I'd probably put a pro on board that can let the mare use herself properly before trying to figure things out.

[gloriginger]

The thing about horses like this, the more you tug on their face, the more excited and inverted they get. Its hard to tell by the video, but it really looks like the saddle is too small for this rider, which would cause pain for the horse.

Also, she is sitting on her pelvis, and way to stiff in her upper body which is going to cause the horse to be stressed.

I wouldn't doubt that this horse's pelvis is out of whack. She should have a chiro look at the horse.

Honestly I don't think she should be cantering the horse at this time. With a high, inverted head, quick choppy steps, what kind of canter did she expect? As someone else stated, the quality of the trot determines the quality of the canter. She should work on bending, flexion, spiral circles, leg yields, and building a nice even trot.

I also wuld encourage this rider to change her saddle, it is too small and it is pitching her forward, making her off balance and tense.

[Ambrey]

It seems like you could tell whether it was the rider, or just having a rider, based on whether she does it on the longe line as well.

And the longe line is also a good place to start teaching her to reach down and lengthen her steps without the weight of a rider to deal with.

(signed, owner of a formerly inverted and choppy hony)

[Perfect Pony]

I definitely agree doing a full work-up on hind legs, I have heard of quite a number of OCD cases where the only symptoms were inability to carry a certain canter lead behind.

Yep, now that I am living it, I hear about more and more similar cases. Makes me all the more frustrated with vets!

[rabicon]

I'm in the group of rider error. The rider is holding on to her face for dear life and looks terrified up there (even though the probably wouldn't admit it). It looks like the horse is totally confused about what to do. If she picks up contact she needs to drive the horse forward. It looks like the rider is picking up contact with no release and just hanging. No driving seat, no driving leg, just holding on to her face. The rider also needs to not lean so forward (I have this problem in the canter;)). I would say the horse came from a rider that knew what she was doing, no offense, and is now with someone that doesn't know how to ride her and the horse is lost. The horse is scrambling for what to do, hence she's counter cantering because she's not sure if she is suppose to canter or trot and is waiting behind to pick it up and taking off with the front legs first. Give her a loose rein and canter in the field. See what she does. It is very possible that she is sore now because of the riding she has been getting also. The rider doesn't need to sit the trot either right now. I would love to have this horse. Much an angel and is trying so hard to figure out whats being asked of her.


Also the comment about school horses being yanked and pounded on can canter correctly. Well yes it happens but those are certain types of horses not all. My horse started bucking people off and spooking to scare people and kids off before I bought him. Now he is an angel for me that can somewhat (I'm not perfect by no means) right him correctly. He is the sweetest most willing horse I've ridden but he got sick of the pounding and yanking. Some horses are just not horses that are push button and know that they are suppose to canter around a ring correctly just because a rider kicked or kissed. This horse reminds me of mine alot. If I lean forward anymore in the trot or walk (like this rider) he will go to the next gait. Why? Because he gets confused and is trying to figure out what I want. Not being bad but just confused. Same with this horse. Its just confused.

OP I'd tell your BO to find another trainer if the trainer does not see whats going on. And if the rider reads this please don't be discouraged. I've put many of critiques up and have been blasted for things. But they have all made me better in the long run.

[Extreme Chaos]

Horse looks tense and nervous during the canter, he flips his head up and inverts.
It may be a physical issue, but the rider is hanging on his face. I think the horse is reacting to the rider and her inability, to let him move forward.:cool:
I have a horse who will do the same thing. If you try to restrict him from going forward, he'll pat the ground and swap behind.

[lightlee]

The horse looks lame to me - it is subtle but the horse is off. Even though the rider is not helping the horse I don't think the rider is making the horse move unequally in the back end. The horse needs a lameness exam in my opinion.

[magnolia73]

Maybe a little bit of both- the riding is pretty restrictive. Even if there is an issue with the stifle, that horse is not looking happy with the rider's hands. I used to ride my horse with too much brake on. She hated it. Soften those hands, let her forward. Have a vet out to look at the hind end.

Even if it is a stifle or hock, treatment is probably not going to yield a happy, nice round cantering horse until the riding changes.

[HappyTalk]

Can this mare canter on the lunge?

[Lauruffian]

I recommend getting the vet out for a lameness exam to rule out pain issues. If it's not, then you can look at rider error.

I say this also because I'm seeing in her a lot of what I've been seeing in my 21yro Arab. Resistance to the upward, a desire to race into it rather than rock back for a proper upward, cantering hollowed out with head up once the canter finally takes place, and "funky" moving behind. With my girl, it turns out (*sniff*) she has arthritis in her hocks and several of the lower joints (pastern, fetlock, coffin). Time to slow down and let her be a walk-trot-trail horse.

My mare would canter on the lunge--didn't have the pressure of my weight, or being held in frame--but studying her carefully I could still eventually see something was off. The chiro adjusted her first, and when that didn't take, the vet came out. He confirmed my suspicions, unfortunately.

I recommend you rule out a lameness issue, then have her teeth and saddle fit checked, then see if it's a rider issue.

[Kenike]

I haven't read all of the responses, but will comment to what I think:

The rider is impeding. That's obvious. What we here in cyberland don't know is the why. So, since she's working with a trainer and I'm trusting the trainer is aware of what the rider is feeling (since OP commented horse is doing this with everyone), I will comment no further on that.

I do see something with the stifle. I'd suggest having it checked. Maybe the pelvis, too. Those problems can be sneaky and cause this very issue (pelvis, esp). So I'd be getting those checked out, even x-rayed, to be sure.

I wish you all luck with her. She's a cutie!

[Jealoushe]

I have to agree with the fact that the rider is causing this.

This is a very typical way of going for a horse who is anxious when they have too much contact, my horse is the same. If someone who grabbed his face rode him he would canter just like that.

I'm surprised so many think it's a pain issue, watch the rider, it's clear as day!

Also, several people have asked, how does the horse canter in the field and on the lunge????

The horse has been ridden for how long like this? He/she has probably developed all the wrong muscles and looks very tense. Is the rider nervous or scared of this horse?

Lots of walk, and trot stretching over the back - laying off the face is a good start.

[shawneeAcres]

I have not read all the replies and looked at first and last video briefly. Here is my take on a few things that jump out, first, ANYTIME a horse has a somewhat sudden change like this mare I would want a vet to check her throughly. It can be SO many things physically, stifles, hocks, back, as well as conditions like EPM, EPSM etc. From watching the videos though, the rider does NOT have the mare going forward AT ALL and yet is trying to crank the horse into a "frame" this is counter productive and can easily cause these issues, as the mare is going very "hollow" backed and cannot bring her hind end up underneath her to balance herself, keep the lead behind etc. This rider needs a lot of basic instruction on how to ride the horse FROM THE LEG to the bit. She also needs to ride this mare "long and low" before trying to get a "frame" with her. The mare SEEMS to be a bit challenged by her conformation (from what I can tell from the videos which is quite difficutl) and so needs to learn to come down, swing her back and become more active in the hind end. In the first video I almost felt like she was some sort of a gaited horse cross, as you often seem horses that are part walking horse doing that type of trot. but again can be the way she is being ridden, or something physical. I would urge a thorough vet chekc FIRST then the rider needs instruction that shows her hold to get the mare STRETCHING down into the bit before she goes any further.

[rabicon]

The vet has already checked the horse and found nothing, correct?

Also being unbalanced etc... When I ride my horse to the right in the canter he is unbalanced and leans in or counterbends, he will also sometimes throw his head up but if my trainer rides him she has no problem with any of this.(it has gotten much better with me as I'm getting stronger and riding the canter better) Why, because she is a stronger better rider than I am and can use her leg and seat much more effectivly than I can. So long story short the rider is not strong enough to ride the horse the way it really needs to be ridden right now to keep it from falling and leaning and throwing its head up. The cross cantering is confusion for the horse because the rider is trying to hold her balance with his face. My horse will also cross canter at times if I hold onto him to much going into the canter and don't let him move out and give with my hands. Why do I do this? Because I'm trying to "keep him in frame in the transition" which I know is competely wrong but sometimes I accidently get to strong with my hands on the transition because its hard for me to sit back and ride him into it because of my muscle memory and strength. So what does he do? He doesn't really pick up the canter. He'll go to pick it up but then is restricted then he does a really weird jig and tries again and well we end up cross cantering.

[jen-s]

Thanks everyone for your help. Let me see if I can answer some of the questions that keep coming up.

Rider issues: Yes, I'm very aware that the rider is asking Willow to canter from a virtually-non-existant trot. Yes, I know the mare is inverted and the rider is making this worse. The rider is a normaly fairly confident (and yes, even soft!) lady, who has had major confidence issues since purchasing this mare. One day they will be making tremendous progress, and then they'll have a day like this and it will set everything back. Willow is definitely the sort to try to please even when she's getting conflicting directions and has been as patient as a saint.

Horse issues: As far as breeding, we have no idea what all she is. She has very unique coloring/markings and conformation. Note to self: I need to get a couple of confo shots taken. She's got super stout legs with large feathers and flat draft feet. A QHish body with muttonish withers. And a fairly delicate head with the furriest ears I've ever seen. She does seem to have something gaited in her somewhere that doesn't show itself all the time but comes out more when she is confused or off balance. She's a super striking paint with a dorsal stripe and brindling on her hocks. Her natural carriage is inverted and when we first started to encourage her to go long and low, it resulted in head tossing with every stride (yes, her teeth were floated and her bit was checked). She will stretch down at times, but she is very unsure of where to put her feet when she does this. She has overdeveloped the muscles under her neck (with virtually no topline) which makes it hard for her to stretch down, but is better when either trainer rides her. She is happiest in a dressage-sort of frame (with the trainer or with her owner on a good day), but they are still working on long and low.

Lunging: I haven't seen the mare lunged, so I hesitate to comment. In fact, part of why I haven't posted sooner is that I expected to see her go this week, but haven't due to scheduling conflicts. I'm hoping to watch her lunge this weekend. In the field during play, I can't recall seeing her on her right lead but she holds the left one ok.

Vet workup: When the mare was purchased, because she was priced cheap, the BO elected to skip the PPE. She did have the vet out almost immediately after bringing her home for spring shots, etc, but she hasn't had a full workup. Both the eventer trainer and myself have been advocating for the vet to come back out. Luckily our vet does chiro, so that is convenient. Also discussed has been massage and having a saddle fitter check things out as well. Willow is now being trimmed by a different gentleman and is moving a bit better and her feet look happier to me, but there are still the same larger issues going on.

I think that addresses the majority of the questions that keep coming up. I do have other videos/pics of Willow and need to dig through them to compare. Alas, I'm at work and can't do that now, but if anything comes up, I'll post and see what you guys think. FWIW, the eventer trainer is in the loop and on board with much of what has been said and is committed to working through the problems or finding someone who can and is very vocal about the need for a vet visit, if for nothing else than to say nothing is wrong and it's all training/riding. Thank you again for all of the help and your time to read and watch the videos. I do love our COTH family.