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Come Shine
May. 16, 2009, 07:30 PM
We got stuck in the rain today waiting for an hour for 1 person to finish the class. There were only 7 in the entire division so could have been finished and home in the time it took for one person to come and ride.

There was no announcement about holding the ring. We just figured that the judge was taking a while to pin. D'oh.

Then when the rider finally was finished in the other ring - she proceeded to TACK UP and WARM UP her other horse.

The horse show manager's perspective was that it was a horse show so waiting should be expected. But an hour in the rain? Perhaps it wasn't a big deal for their riders since they could stand in the barn, but for the rest of us, it was a mite unpleasant.

What is the best way to handle ring conflicts? Do horse show managers ever say enough is enough and send the rounds through? What about riders with many horses? How do you handle it?

Petstorejunkie
May. 16, 2009, 07:50 PM
All the shows i've been to you have 2 minutes to get your butt in the arena, otherwise they move on. you may get bumped to the last on the list but if the last rider goes and you are still mia, you are sh*t outa luck.

was this some mom and pop schooling show or something?

kellyb
May. 16, 2009, 07:56 PM
Well as a rider there are not many ways for you to handle it other than just voicing your concerns.

At the shows I've been to, if you're not at the gate within a reasonable amount of time when being called, they move on.

theroanypony
May. 16, 2009, 08:03 PM
At our last local show we waited a good hour for short stirrup to finish. We too thought the judge was taking her time to pin, but then at the end of the hour waiting, a kid shows up. She hadn't done any of her trips because she was waiting for her trainer to come watch. I can understand, somewhat. But then she goes in and does one trip, comes out and waits around for five minutes before going back in. We actually timed her 4-6 minutes in between each trip! With four trips, that's a massive amount of wasted time on one kid. Plus, we too were waiting in the rain. The only thing the ring guys/announcers could do was just keep yelling at the trainer. I think if you're going to have ring conflicts, the best thing is to try to be the FIRST one in the ring, rather than thinking you can come back at the end.

Come Shine
May. 16, 2009, 08:06 PM
This was a rated show.

I know we have talked about the 2 minute rule (or reasonable wait time) in our area before but it has never come to be because people are concerned that riders would boycott the show. For those who have the rule in place, what happens when the rider finds out they have missed their turn? Do people get the message and get in line, or does attendance at the shows suffer?

Hunter Mom
May. 16, 2009, 08:39 PM
The last rated show we did, they were trying to avoid this problem. They told trainers at the beginning their riders had to be posted by a specific time, and they would not hold it.

IMO - Just because they have riders in more than one ring, doesn't mean they're more important than I am. I appreciate the show management that won't let them hold it open for long times. I have been the rider at the "other ring" and have gone without my trainer there, even, because I think it is rude.

Valeureux
May. 16, 2009, 09:26 PM
I've has similar experiences.
At a bigger show i went to last summer, my equitation flat class was help up for 45 minutes by a girl riding with a BNT that was ALWAYS at this show, and so we waited. My horse went nuts not doing anything for that long and we didn't place.
That wasn't a good day at our barn :no:

juniormom
May. 16, 2009, 09:40 PM
I can understand waiting for a trainer, but not for an eq on the flat. I have seen them wait a few minutes, but not for a long time for a flat. I guess that is what happens when you have a trainer that is spread very thinly between the rings. Unfortunately for the individual riders with one horse and or a trainer that isn't there with many horses, we play second fiddle compared with the farms that bring a lot of horses. That is when it is nice if you are at a farm that is large enough to have an asst. trainer, etc. It also makes a difference if it is a younger child just beginning to show or an older adult that may have confidence issues, etc. Some trainers will get really mad at the clients if they go and they aren't there. I know the dressage shows have more "exact" times to go and that is nice. I like it when the orders of go are posted the day before or early in the morning and the orders are enforced, unless you want to go early. It seems that if more shows enforced this, the trainers could figure out which groups they wanted to go when and put them in appropriately. We are like you in that going first helps to prevent a lot of "standing around." Sometimes it is hard to hear announcements in the barn as well. I think it is up to the riders and their farms to know what is going on at the rings, but that isn't always the case either. The thing that makes me the maddest about waiting is when you have someone just talking with someone else and holding up the rings. At some of the larger shows, there are some individuals that habitually hold up the rings. The shows want them to come as they are a good source of revenue, so they don't say anything to them. It also seems like someone should be helping the child or whoever has a lot of horses there get them warmed up for the class, so that the rider is able to jump some schooling jumps and go in. The other option for that is to spread their entries out during the class if it is a large class. Sometimes that isn't possible due to trainer conflicts either. It seems like there could be a good "middle ground."

Against all Odds
May. 16, 2009, 11:26 PM
the ingate is key!!

If you have a knowledgable ingate person they should be able to handle most conflicts and sort things out. putting up the order of go long before the class starts is key, if people aren't responsible enough to look ahead then that's they're fault and they should be skipped over, any conflicts should be declared at the start not half way through the class. Also I find the biggest thing is just keep the ring moving. it doesn't matter if you don't have your horses go in in the perfect order you put up, just get a horse in the ring.

IsolaBella09
May. 16, 2009, 11:29 PM
the ingate is key!!

If you have a knowledgable ingate person they should be able to handle most conflicts and sort things out. putting up the order of go long before the class starts is key, if people aren't responsible enough to look ahead then that's they're fault and they should be skipped over, any conflicts should be declared at the start not half way through the class. Also I find the biggest thing is just keep the ring moving. it doesn't matter if you don't have your horses go in in the perfect order you put up, just get a horse in the ring.

Ditto this. A great ingate person is key to getting horses in the ring and the classes moving. Next time, talk to the ingate person or the secretary.

Go Fish
May. 17, 2009, 01:34 AM
When you have multiple rings and riders/trainers having multiple conflicts, sometimes you just have to wait. I don't know where you draw the line...most of the delays are legitimate, in my opinion.

Levi's owner
May. 17, 2009, 08:52 AM
Ditto this. A great ingate person is key to getting horses in the ring and the classes moving. Next time, talk to the ingate person or the secretary.

I would talk to the manager or the steward. Sometimes the in gate starter is only following what management has told them to do.

enjoytheride
May. 17, 2009, 09:45 AM
Explain why the delay is legitimate, especially a delay that long. Why can't someone go in without their trainer?

mep0726
May. 17, 2009, 09:49 AM
Explain why the delay is legitimate, especially a delay that long. Why can't someone go in without their trainer?

If riders are paying their trainer for coaching at the show, they are going to want their trainer to be there to watch their rounds. That way they can discuss afterwards what went wrong, what went right, etc. However, for the hack or an eq. on the flat, I think most people would be perfectly fine going in without their trainer. :yes:

Come Shine
May. 17, 2009, 10:43 AM
I understand delays and ring conflicts and paying the trainer to watch your rounds. However, my hope always is that the show is doing their BEST to keep the show running and MINIMIZE these types of delays.

When the show manager, rather than apologize about her student being the cause of the hour delay in the rain, basically peeved - well, what do you expect, it's a horse show - that was aggravating.

ETA: Thanks for listening and for reminding me this is a general problem all over. Sigh - my rantiness is over now. It is a beautiful day outside and yesterday is over with no ill effects. Plus my tack is all now super clean because I had to get all the mud off it. :) Have a great week-end everyone!!

Trixie
May. 17, 2009, 11:11 AM
If riders are paying their trainer for coaching at the show, they are going to want their trainer to be there to watch their rounds. That way they can discuss afterwards what went wrong, what went right, etc. However, for the hack or an eq. on the flat, I think most people would be perfectly fine going in without their trainer

Frankly, that's the trainer's problem, not the horse show's problem.

The horse show shouldn't make everyone else wait around so that X competitor can discuss their round and have a learning experience. That's completely entitled behavior, but yes, it happens all the time. However, in the case of all but the smallest schooling shows - it's a competition not a lesson.

I try to attend shows where I know the gate person is relatively efficient. As it is, nothing makes for a longer day than most hunter shows, even if I am enjoying myself. And yes, if the ring was held up for an hour for one competitor, I'd absolutely complain.

PNWjumper
May. 17, 2009, 11:31 AM
At the first show of the season this year we had to wait an hour for one person to go in the first of two 4' jumper classes. So we all did our rounds and then had to sit around (we kept hearing "10 minutes, 10 minutes") waiting for her to go before they could reset the course for the second class.

She was riding a horse in a hunter class in one of the other rings. THIRTY MINUTES after we saw her walk her horse back to the barn she sauntered up on her jumper. She then proceeded to do a full dressage warmup (a good twenty minutes of lateral work, trot poles, and lots of circles), followed by another ten minutes of jumping. She had a kid helping her who looked really embarrassed to be stuck in the middle of it all.

On the one hand I had to admire the fact that she was so unperturbed by the angry glances (and words) from the fifteen riders and their trainers waiting for her that she was able to do what she felt her horse needed before going into the ring. On the other, it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever watched. The back gate guy put down his foot after that and said if you were more than 5 minutes late to the ring (with the exception, of course, of legitimate conflicts) you were out of the class. It was ridiculous that we all had to warm our horses up a second time because of ONE PERSON. :mad:

It just makes me hugely appreciate the shows that put the schedule up at the back gate and stick to it!

I guess at least we were inside and not in the rain :lol:

superpony123
May. 17, 2009, 12:43 PM
I have been to several different shows of various levels that have handled it differently. At garden state, on sunday it was raining, and there were several children's ponies (lrgs) that werent at the ring when they shouldve been. I don't know if they made it in time or not, but they announced it several times on the PA and said if these ponies arent here by X time we're moving on.

At a local finals show, the outdoor ring was held up for an hour or so because there was a conflict with the indoor ring. What bugged me is right off the bat once there was five or so minutes of the ring being held up, they announced to PLEASE MAKE THE OUTDOOR RING YOUR PRIORITY. EVEN IF THE INDOOR IS HELD UP, IT WILL STILL FINISH HOURS BEFORE THE OUTDOOR. PLEASE ALL TRAINERS MAKE THE OUTDOOR RING THE PRIORITY. .. so clearly some rude trainer with a kid in the indoor held up the outdoor ring for an hour, even after all these announcements. *eyes roll* the nerve! At the same show, some horses and ponies just werent at the ingate when they shouldve been, even with the indoor ring finished up. Steward announced that if they didnt get another pony in the ring in two minutes, she's closing the gate and moving to the next division.

My trainer is very good about handling these things. He makes sure that he never holds up a ring. If someone's got a course walk, they obviously have to be priority, because if you miss the walk then you miss the walk. Then someone else might have a hack. Then if I already hacked, and ive just got jumping classes, i'll come after the others, because this is obviously going to be the situation of a very large show, and he will make sure he puts me at a spot in the line up where I can make it to the ring when i'm supposed to.

Ghazzu
May. 17, 2009, 01:52 PM
If riders are paying their trainer for coaching at the show, they are going to want their trainer to be there to watch their rounds. That way they can discuss afterwards what went wrong, what went right, etc. However, for the hack or an eq. on the flat, I think most people would be perfectly fine going in without their trainer. :yes:


That should be the *trainer's* problem, not every other competitor in the class.

If the trainer is spread that thin, they should be pulling in enough $$ to hire help. Otherwiae, they ought to bring only as many horses and riders as they can handle single-handedly.

lcw579
May. 17, 2009, 02:27 PM
Explain why the delay is legitimate, especially a delay that long. Why can't someone go in without their trainer?


If riders are paying their trainer for coaching at the show, they are going to want their trainer to be there to watch their rounds. That way they can discuss afterwards what went wrong, what went right, etc. However, for the hack or an eq. on the flat, I think most people would be perfectly fine going in without their trainer. :yes:


Can someone explain why you feel the need for all the hand holding and why everyone else isn't up at the office having a b**h fest everytime a class is held up for one of these prima donnas who is afraid to go in the ring without someone watching? This would drive me insane!

When we were kids we were sometimes just dumped off at the show and picked up at the end of the day by our trainer. Granted this was in the dark ages but I guess his reasoning was if you were ready to show you were ready to get yourself around the course. Certainly taught us all to be independent thinkers. I can't remember anyone tolerating behavior like this back then.

Years ago I also used to work at a local show series and we certainly didn't hold up the show for anyone, LBNT or not. I also can't recall anyone ever asking me to hold the gate so they could watch someone in another ring and then come up to mine.

Threads like this make me so glad my daughter made the switch to eventing. Having a time and sticking to it is lovely. :yes:

Hunter Mom
May. 17, 2009, 04:14 PM
That should be the *trainer's* problem, not every other competitor in the class.

If the trainer is spread that thin, they should be pulling in enough $$ to hire help. Otherwiae, they ought to bring only as many horses and riders as they can handle single-handedly.

AMEN!

Greg
May. 17, 2009, 04:28 PM
Conflicts happen... Do you really expect a junior to walk in and do a 3'6 course or even school herself over fences? Or a 12 year old on a large green pony? Or an older adult that goes into a brain fog/hysteria after the first fence? When each horse ultimately costs an exhibitor thousands of dollars? I sure as heck am waiting for my trainer! At the rated shows many people are trying to get to Indoors, and every class counts.

Many venues have ALOT of rings going - and many of them are spread out over a large distance. Often the very same people that spaz out over a ring delay, are the ones who spaz out when trainer X slips his rider in ahead them in the interest of NOT holding up another ring!

Who exactly do you expect to jump in train the rider when a trainer hits a conflict? The groom?

If a trainer holds up a ring because he's having lunch or chatting on the phone - thats one thing. Most trainers have a plan and reason for making a certain ring/rider a time priority over another one. If a butterfly flaps it's wings in China, that plan can go awry pretty quickly, it's noones fault, it's a horse show.

Madeline
May. 17, 2009, 04:47 PM
Conflicts happen... Do you really expect a junior to walk in and do a 3'6 course or even school herself over fences? Or a 12 year old on a large green pony? Or an older adult that goes into a brain fog/hysteria after the first fence? When each horse ultimately costs an exhibitor thousands of dollars? I sure as heck am waiting for my trainer! At the rated shows many people are trying to get to Indoors, and every class counts.

Rated show? Trying to get to indoors? You bet they should be able to go into the ring without a trainer hovering. If you're that paranoid about getting your money's worth from the trainer, get a video camera, but don't hold up the whole show.


Most trainers have a plan and reason for making a certain ring/rider a time priority over another one. If a butterfly flaps it's wings in China, that plan can go awry pretty quickly, it's noones fault, it's a horse show.

That should be "all trainers have a plan," shouldn't it? Look at this in the context of the real world. Say you're at a swim meet. Your race is called, you aren't there. You're SOL. Ditto ski racing. Your number is called and you have 1 minute to start. Late? Tough. Late for your 4:30 plane? Too bad.

The nicest I can see being would be to close any class where the gate was open for 5 minutes. I bet that the trainers and riders would all learn to cope in a really big hurry if this rule was enforced AND there were no returned entry fees for missed classes.

Greg
May. 17, 2009, 05:17 PM
If you want to discuss reality - I know a lot of trainers would REALLY freak out at a student that walked in and showed without discussing it with them.

Seriously, how many of you would actually walk in and do your trip without your trainer? at a rated horse show? and then how many would do it twice??? ;0)

(plus, who's gonna set the jumps?)

Granted, most people shooting for Indoors are perfectly capable of making it safely around a show course, however, at the better shows, it's about doing it flawlessly. The oxer here, versus the vertical there, or a placement pole, or a rub right before you go in - can be the difference between first and fifth.

I don't love waiting. I HATE holding a ring up if my trainer is somewhere else. I have 2 trainers at my farm, and conflicts STILL happen - rarely, but they do, No way in hell I'm showing without them.

If a horse show is going to have a multi-ring show, then people need to expect conflicts, or they are going to be VERY frustrated. The horse show management expect them, they obviously try to keep things flowing, but you can't have a large show, without having the conflicts. Without teleportation or one of those Harry Potter time stopper thingies, it's an impossible dream!

I think a between ring shuttle service for the trainers is a good idea. Not all trainers have a golf cart, and even then, sometimes they get commandeered! Also, maybe the shuttle will serve to help hurry things along...

Come Shine
May. 17, 2009, 05:32 PM
Another 'olden days' reference here. Many years ago at the shows, one away, on deck, and you're in was all you heard at the gate. You got on seven away and were at the gate when your number was called as being one away. Multi-ring shows. I don't recall anyone ever holding up a gate.

Personally, I think a lot of this comes down to the sense of entitlement that is becoming so pervasive. "I" deserve to have my trainer there, "I" want to go to Indoors, so everyone else is sol. What about the poor sod who has to wait with their horse while you hold up the ring? Perhaps they would have won a better ribbon if they hadn't stood around all day waiting for you.

Yikes - maybe my rant wasn't quite as over as I thought. :)

lcw579
May. 17, 2009, 06:01 PM
Rated show? Trying to get to indoors? You bet they should be able to go into the ring without a trainer hovering. If you're that paranoid about getting your money's worth from the trainer, get a video camera, but don't hold up the whole show.



Amen to that!

Come Shine - I think you are right on the money with the sense of entitlement. I never thought I would become one of those yearning for the good old days and yet here I am ...

Extreme Chaos
May. 17, 2009, 06:35 PM
If you want to discuss reality - I know a lot of trainers would REALLY freak out at a student that walked in and showed without discussing it with them.

Seriously, how many of you would actually walk in and do your trip without your trainer? at a rated horse show? and then how many would do it twice??? ;0)



I've done it, it was either that or get locked out of the class.:yes:
Sometimes you have to put on your big girl panties and just do it!;)

mvp
May. 17, 2009, 07:08 PM
Figure your potential conflicts early. Sign up in the order where you think your trip work for you and your entourage. Be nice to the gate person and try to rearrange a bit if you can see, say 7 or 8 out that your plan won't work.

Worse comes to worse, Man Up and go... by yourself... can you believe it?

Man up to your trainer his/her wrath is the hang up.

I can't believe gate holds are allowed.

I know... such a hard-a$$!

But really, if you plan and communicate and be nice, these things don't have to happen or be an issue.

Trixie
May. 17, 2009, 07:19 PM
Conflicts happen... Do you really expect a junior to walk in and do a 3'6 course or even school herself over fences? Or a 12 year old on a large green pony? Or an older adult that goes into a brain fog/hysteria after the first fence? When each horse ultimately costs an exhibitor thousands of dollars? I sure as heck am waiting for my trainer! At the rated shows many people are trying to get to Indoors, and every class counts.

If you can't jump around your course without waiting for your trainer, you need to make sure that your trainer will be there. That's a problem that is between YOU and TRAINER - not an issue for everyone else at the horse show.


Who exactly do you expect to jump in train the rider when a trainer hits a conflict? The groom?

Why exactly are they so unprepared that they can't jump a course by themselves or work it out ahead of time?


If you want to discuss reality - I know a lot of trainers would REALLY freak out at a student that walked in and showed without discussing it with them.

The rider is paying the trainer to be present. If the trainer can't be present, they're the one not holding up their end of the bargain, not the rider. And if it's that important to them, they can get their butt down to the ring on time. Personally, I'd never employ a trainer that would "freak out" at me for doing what I'm there to do.


Seriously, how many of you would actually walk in and do your trip without your trainer? at a rated horse show? and then how many would do it twice??? ;0)

Yep. Been there, done it, a zillion times over. I PREFER having trainer present, but I've done it a thousand times without, and have no problem continuing to do it without.


(plus, who's gonna set the jumps?)

Most riders have someone else on the ground besides trainer. If they don't, they need to plan ahead and ask someone else for help. Or get off and do it themselves if the schooling ring isn't slammed. Often, other trainers are perfectly helpful in letting you jump "their" jump if you just ask nicely.


Granted, most people shooting for Indoors are perfectly capable of making it safely around a show course, however, at the better shows, it's about doing it flawlessly. The oxer here, versus the vertical there, or a placement pole, or a rub right before you go in - can be the difference between first and fifth.

Again. It's a competition based on your skills and those of your horse. If you don't have the skills to do it on your own or haven't planned appropriately to have your trainer present, that's your problem, not the problem of the other competitors. I don't really care WHAT your competitive goals are.


If a horse show is going to have a multi-ring show, then people need to expect conflicts, or they are going to be VERY frustrated.

You're right. It's VERY frustrating to be sitting there all day because one person can't manage to get it together.

Ghazzu
May. 17, 2009, 07:21 PM
Granted, most people shooting for Indoors are perfectly capable of making it safely around a show course, however, at the better shows, it's about doing it flawlessly. The oxer here, versus the vertical there, or a placement pole, or a rub right before you go in - can be the difference between first and fifth.



And exactly *how* does the trainer's presence at the gate prevent a chip or a rub?

Tollriffic
May. 17, 2009, 08:40 PM
I think Greg was referring more to the warm-up that prepares the horse for the round. A hard rub in the warm-up ring can prevent a rub in the ring with many horses. Setting different placement poles can influence their stride in preparation for a specific fence or line. The trainer can develop a warm-up routine that will lead to success in the ring.

pooh
May. 17, 2009, 09:47 PM
Since I switched from hunters to eventing and dressage I can't beleive the difference in how things run. First and foremost -- I go to most of my shows / events by myself - put horse on trailer, school , show , back on trailer by myself -- and with my trainers blessings!! She stated that she knows she has done a good job preparing me if I can confidently go to a show on my own ( and I am on a greenie doing low level stuff, and a self described chicken!)
And in dressage / events you aren't allowed ANY coaching while in the ring or on the cross country course - so once you are done schooling and enter that ring - you are on your own.
As for rings being held up-- I sat through many shows waitng for x rider to get done in one ring to come to the ring I was in, or rider B can't go in umtil their trainer arrives. I think the in gates need to be stricter about the 2 minute rule - give a warning, then close the class. If trainers are that spread - they need to re think their plan, if a competitor is locked out of a class- same thing - maybe they need to re think their plan - enter different classes or if necessary drop a class.

Trixie
May. 17, 2009, 10:07 PM
I think Greg was referring more to the warm-up that prepares the horse for the round. A hard rub in the warm-up ring can prevent a rub in the ring with many horses. Setting different placement poles can influence their stride in preparation for a specific fence or line. The trainer can develop a warm-up routine that will lead to success in the ring.

Even still... how is that anyone else's problem?

Come Shine
May. 17, 2009, 10:24 PM
The trainer can develop a warm-up routine that will lead to success in the ring.

I just wish people were simply more respectful of everyone's efforts. One competitor holding up a ring impacts a lot. The butterfly effect someone above mentioned.

lonewolf
May. 17, 2009, 11:11 PM
A lot of trainers just don't care, in my opinion.

I understand that conflicts arise. However, at the big shows I attended (in California), things almost always ran on time. The classes had posted orders in the main jumper ring, and the classes in every other ring had posted start and ending times. Trainers were responsible for looking at the schedule AHEAD of time and planning how to fit it all in. They were supposed to sign in first thing in the morning. If they hadn't signed in, and the class was ending without them showing up it was assumed they weren't coming. It can almost always be done with some planning. Trainers just need to look at the schedule and plan to have some students go first, others last, have horses at the ring for them, etc. If a conflict arose at those shows, the gate people were understanding as long as the trainer told the gate person AHEAD OF TIME. They were then allowed to move up or down, or have the class wait a few minutes (not an hour; that's ridiculous). There is absolutely no reason why this can't happen, and a well-organized trainer should still be able to help all the students who need it.

I personally think that if a conflict hasn't been cleared ahead of time with the gate person, there should be a ten minute call and the class should be closed. End of story.

norcalammie
May. 17, 2009, 11:20 PM
I remember a show once where they were waiting for a BNT and waiting for the trainer. I had already gone early in the class, untacked my horse, changed my clothes and went up to the snack bar for a drink and here was the BNT having LUNCH. The trainer had no clue and was in no hurry. They finally scratched her from the class. She raised a stink - I am sure the client would be unhappy to hear the horse was scratched because the trainer did not get to the ring on time.

The next day guess who was at the ring with all of her mounts ready to go when the class started. Management scratched her the one day and the rest of the show she was on time or early and at the end of the show when I was checking out there was the BNT thanking management for doing what management needed to do and how she respected their decision and hoped she would not have the problem in the future. (Never did I hear of her holding up a ring again!)

Sometimes management has to take a step and usually it works out in everyone's favor as everyone is treated equally and the rules are there to be enforced.

nlk
May. 17, 2009, 11:33 PM
The bad part is this isn't even someone who was waiting for their trainer. She just mismanaged her time. (or did not care.)

If you have two class in different rings on different horses you post fist in one ring and last in the other. Simple. You go up to the guys at the in gate tell them you have to be a ring 2 in x trips you need to go here now. usually they say ok let this trainer finish these trips and then you go. Not that hard.

If you have two horses bring the other down to the ring, tie your number around his neck have someone hold him and when you get down swap saddles and mount!

I agree that the BNT who hold up the ring drive me nuts. Last year at a pony show a trainer was in the barn, her rider was in a division that had 5 riders in it 3 trips each....she waited till they called her from the barn (first division of the day too) to bring the kid down and warm-up...there goes a half hour....

As for the trainers who bring so many riders they can't keep up well I agree you make enough to have an assistant. I can take 10 riders and do it my self and not hold up a ring more then 5 mins (which happened once) I post myself and my riders in such a way that there is always time and I am always at the ring. If I have a personal horse I am riding, I would forgo my own class if it held the rings or prevented me from being with my clients. I also encourage independence though...I tell my students you have to start your warm up at this time, they are responsible for being groomed, tacked, dressed, and walk trot canter by the time I get to the ring. they jump some walk and then go to the ring....I have never had a client complain and it allows me to be everywhere at once.

heartinrye
May. 18, 2009, 06:38 AM
I once was at a rated show where they held the jumper ring (in August!) for over an hour! No one had gone clean yet so a j/o for the 4-faulters was most likely going to happen. But they had to let the last person go.
15 minutes after everyone was done, she pulled in with the trailer, unloaded horse then went to show office.
Spent about 15 minutes in there, then proceeded to take her sweet time tacking up and schooling.
She goes into the ring jumps 2 JUMPS then excuses herself. WHAT?!?! We waited 1:15 minutes in the south florida hot sun in August for you to arrive LATE to the show, and then jump 2 jumps and EXCUSE YOURSELF?
Bah, I still get aggravated about it.

copper1
May. 18, 2009, 07:46 AM
Conflicts happen and I have appreciated the gate being held for me at times but you can bet I busted my butt getting there as quickly as possible! I was at a show recently that was having some conflict problems so they had opened the cards and kept a horse in the ring at all times. Announcements were being made that if you were ready, to come jump what ever class. Horses kept coming and towards the end, they were still missing one horse that needed to do two trips. Kept calling the number to no response. Finally someone notices that this horse and his rider are standing under a tree, untacked, just chatting away with friends!
Another show, with one ring, rider would NOT go in the ring without her trainer to watch-older rider who has been riding and showing forever! Trainer was standing at the trailer talking to his friends!

Jsalem
May. 18, 2009, 07:53 AM
Really good horse shows have excellent gate staff that avoid many conflicts. They are proactive; they know the trainers by sight; they know who is fast, who is flexible. Really good trainers are efficient and very skilled at being where they need to be. Those trainers are good business people who are smart enough to hire assistants to get the job done. Really good clients are on time and efficient in their warmup. They don't require too much coddling from their trainers. There you go folks- maybe it's time for an upgrade.

je.suis
May. 18, 2009, 08:07 AM
Many, many years ago I was at a big show doing the hunters. My trainer had other clients so I placed myself at the end of the order as I knew I'd have to wait. When the last rider completed the course I waited briefly and decided I wasn't going to hold things up in the ring. I went in, rode my course, was delighted I had no major problems, was thanked by the ingate guy and other riders. When my trainer came back to the ring about 10 min. after I had completed, the manure flew. How could you go in without my being here? Why didn't you wait? Blah blah blah. I admitted I had no learning disabilities and by this time was capable of riding a course with no one watching and no applause from my trainer. I did the right thing and wish trainers would consider how long a show day is for riders and grooms. If I don't know how to ride by the time I get to that level, I shouldn't have been there at all!

Fly_High
May. 18, 2009, 08:22 AM
I can say that I was the cause of about 20 minutes of hold up at a schooling show this weekend. We happened to have two disciplines going on one day, Western and Draft. I just started western and they took me to this as my first show. I also ride a Draft horse for a client of my trainers in the Open Eq and Hunters. We spoke to the show manager as soon as we realized that my divisions were going to conveniently end up at the same time (a division was scratched from draft moving it along faster than planned and there were millions of jr western moving it slower than planned). The judge and competitors in draft said they didn't mind taking a break to wait, which I appreciated but did not require. If they had gone on without me, I would have missed my Eq but made the hunter and would have understood. I appreciated peoples patience in my endeavors to be a well rounded rider. I literally had my english clothes under the western outfit, leapt off the western horse, yanked off the western clothes, slapped on my gloves and jumped on my already tacked and waiting draft horse. Everyone was telling me to take my time but I didn't want to hold anyone up any longer since they had been so friendly about it. I really believe there is a time and place for waiting. Weather conditions must be taken into account and the number of competitors. In my case there was a small number of competitors, they knew the issue and were able to take a break accordingly. I have been to shows where you stand around for an hour waiting for one person who is then inconsiderate and rude to those that have waited for them and been frustrated. If it had been raining, I would not have asked them to wait for me because you can't load and unload the drafts tacked so easily. haha

supershorty628
May. 18, 2009, 08:34 AM
I think conflicts have gotten to be more common as the shows have added more rings. Look at HITS Saugerties: there are, what, 7 rings going at any one time? Maybe more. Even for a trainer with the appropriate help, that can be really difficult to manage, especially if the trainer has clients at all different levels (not necessarily tons of them, but a huge spread). What if that trainer has, at one show, a bunch of kids doing the pre-children's hunters for the first time at an A show (please don't take this and run back to the "little divisions shouldn't be at A shows" thing), and that trainer also has a junior jumper, doing the highs for the first time? Who takes priority there?

I've been pretty fortunate because my mom is a professional, so if for some reason my trainer cannot make it to my ring in time, I can still warm up, make a plan, and go in (there have been classes where my trainer got to the ring to see me winning the class, haha!), but if you're pretty new to a division, I can understand wanting to wait for the trainer.

SED
May. 18, 2009, 08:40 AM
I am very cynical about this. I fully believe that ANY trainer can work around long delays if he/she wants to. Will there be an open ring once in awhile? Yes. Will it be 20, 30, 40 minutes? It should NEVER be.

It doesn't take much for a trainer to ask one of the barn crew (including otherwise bored parents) to periodically check how the rings are running. But some of the trainers (sometimes out of disorganization and sometimes out of arrogance) seem to decide that, just because at 8 am it was predicted that the Older Children's would go befoe the Jr/Adult Jumpers, they never, never have to check the schedules again. They can just operate in that fashion and show up very late.

I am proud that my trainer's barn almost never holds up a ring, even with minimal staff. She stays flexible, and keeps in touch with the gate people by asking her riders and/or their parents to periodically check and keep her informed.

It can be done, I assure you. Those who claim it can't just disregard the rights of others.

bumknees
May. 18, 2009, 09:12 AM
If you want to discuss reality - I know a lot of trainers would REALLY freak out at a student that walked in and showed without discussing it with them.

Why? the rider should know how to figure out a course by the time they hit show level.

Seriously, how many of you would actually walk in and do your trip without your trainer? at a rated horse show? and then how many would do it twice??? ;0)

I have many times granted that was a while ago heck I went to horse shows on my own when trainer had a conflict with her own show schedule.

(plus, who's gonna set the jumps?)

Granted, most people shooting for Indoors are perfectly capable of making it safely around a show course, however, at the better shows, it's about doing it flawlessly. The oxer here, versus the vertical there, or a placement pole, or a rub right before you go in - can be the difference between first and fifth.

And the trainer standing by the gate would prevent this how? They are not some majikal eneity that can lift the horse up just a titch higher by thinking/screaming it...

I don't love waiting. I HATE holding a ring up if my trainer is somewhere else. I have 2 trainers at my farm, and conflicts STILL happen - rarely, but they do, No way in hell I'm showing without them.

Why? Is your trainer riding your horse or are you?

If a horse show is going to have a multi-ring show, then people need to expect conflicts, or they are going to be VERY frustrated. The horse show management expect them, they obviously try to keep things flowing, but you can't have a large show, without having the conflicts. Without teleportation or one of those Harry Potter time stopper thingies, it's an impossible dream!

True but conflicts shoudnt prevent the rider from going...

I think a between ring shuttle service for the trainers is a good idea. Not all trainers have a golf cart, and even then, sometimes they get commandeered! Also, maybe the shuttle will serve to help hurry things along...

And add yet more $$$ to entry fees..

People can ride their horses without their trainers attached to their hip or at least they used to be able to.. Even when I paid all day training fee's I didnt expect or demand my trainer be there every second I was in the saddle.

Jsalem
May. 18, 2009, 09:20 AM
I don't expect that my clients are paying my training fees at a show to watch every moment that they are in the saddle. They are paying my to coach them. That means we might discuss the preparation for their classes- lunge, hack in the am, hand walk? They are paying me to warm them up for their class. Set appropriate jumps, remind, correct, get their head right. Watch the round and go over it- what was good, what was not- get in their head again. If they opt to go without me- I really can't do my job.

I'll say it again- good show management, good gate staff, good trainers, good clients all make for a smooth schedule with few holds. I wouldn't patronize shows that tolerate inconsiderate behavior.

Moesha
May. 18, 2009, 12:14 PM
Conflicts happen... Do you really expect a junior to walk in and do a 3'6 course or even school herself over fences? Or a 12 year old on a large green pony? Or an older adult that goes into a brain fog/hysteria after the first fence? When each horse ultimately costs an exhibitor thousands of dollars? I sure as heck am waiting for my trainer! At the rated shows many people are trying to get to Indoors, and every class counts.

Many venues have ALOT of rings going - and many of them are spread out over a large distance. Often the very same people that spaz out over a ring delay, are the ones who spaz out when trainer X slips his rider in ahead them in the interest of NOT holding up another ring!

Who exactly do you expect to jump in train the rider when a trainer hits a conflict? The groom?

If a trainer holds up a ring because he's having lunch or chatting on the phone - thats one thing. Most trainers have a plan and reason for making a certain ring/rider a time priority over another one. If a butterfly flaps it's wings in China, that plan can go awry pretty quickly, it's noones fault, it's a horse show.

Thank You :)

Moesha
May. 18, 2009, 12:29 PM
Nobody, well normal people anyway, want to cause delays or drama and frankly things happen, sure a trainer not paying attention or a rider who is simply not prepared are irritating, but I see the majority of trainers and riders trying everything possible to keep conflicts down, and the delays as short as they can be...sure there are bad apples in the bunch but honestly some of the comments being made are just as entitled...."why should I wait for a 12 year old on a green pony to get a proper warm up and school before going in the ring?"

That's just as entitled to me...and I am sorrry but when you spend a few thousand a week ( per horse) showing, you are not going to wing it....like Trixie said this is a competition you are there to compete and win...of course you are going to put your best foor forward or at least try to.

It can be annoying and down right maddening to wait but most shows do a great job the ingates keep up with each other, the trainers try to work it out as best as possilbe...no one want to get short changed or feel they are pushed aside and their experience/show is not what is could have been/should be because of spoiled selfish people.....but some of the things being thrown out on this thread are not options either...my trainer and trainers before have always worked so hard to keep things coordinated as best as possible and it is not an easy task with horses all over the place at 8 ring circus shows..but I am certainly not going to run into the ring or finish my prep properly and put my horse in any jepoardy by not at least trying to be prepared, but I will make sure my horse if flatted and warmed up even a few small fences so we are ready to go, if I am holding up a ring...I'll do whatever I can maybe my trainer and I are late because someone else held up a ring earlier...it can all be a domino effect with multiple rings...so people should be considerate and work together for a good experience for all of us...but you never know if your trainer was the cause of a hold up that caused the hold up you are upset over....

Come Shine
May. 18, 2009, 02:10 PM
Lol. Maybe we need a separate ring for people who want to wait for their trainer and ride whenever is convenient for them, and not be confined to when it is their turn. Oh, wait a minute, that would be the schooling day. :)

meupatdoes
May. 18, 2009, 06:13 PM
There are seriously people here who think that their two minute trip is more important than x number of other people's 60+ minutes?

The world can wait, everyone else should have their day revolve around you getting your hand held, (because you're worth it)?

Well for all of those "thousands" of dollars y'all are spending wouldn't it be grand if you had knew how to ride worth the hill of beans to warm up your own horse and then go do eight jumps one behind the other.

Even if my horse or I did suddenly have a melt down and I felt I could not enter the ring without my trainer's help, I would call it a day and NOT ENTER THE RING. Oh well, not our day. That is a far superior option than making everyone wait until my horse and I have been duly and professionally coddled and pulled our act together.

I would be way, WAY, WAY to embarrassed to slink in past everyone else after making them wait an hour for me and would rather tell the steward I was scratching and head back to the trailer to get my horse ready for the ride home. If there was an issue with my trainer being AWOL when s/he shouldn't have been that would get duly discussed back at the truck.

Jumper221
May. 18, 2009, 07:12 PM
I think conflicts have gotten to be more common as the shows have added more rings. Look at HITS Saugerties: there are, what, 7 rings going at any one time? Maybe more. Even for a trainer with the appropriate help, that can be really difficult to manage, especially if the trainer has clients at all different levels (not necessarily tons of them, but a huge spread). What if that trainer has, at one show, a bunch of kids doing the pre-children's hunters for the first time at an A show (please don't take this and run back to the "little divisions shouldn't be at A shows" thing), and that trainer also has a junior jumper, doing the highs for the first time? Who takes priority there?


WEF has 14 rings now, divided between 2 properties, and I very rarely saw ring holds this winter. It can be done with a good ingate staff, and good communication and organization between everyone involved. Every morning we would look at the schedule, make a tentative plan for the day, and keep in constant communication about who needed to be where and moving a few places in the order here and there to make it work. For your example, if you see the conflict coming, you can either move your pre-childrens rider up or down in the order so you make the Jr. walk and get your kid 1st in the order there. Maybe not ideal, but there is absolutely no excuse for a ring to be open more than a few minutes.

The ring holds at Saugerties is one of the reasons I hate showing there.

Acertainsmile
May. 18, 2009, 07:31 PM
I packed up my horse and left a show last year because of a ridiculous hold on a ring. Almost an hour, no thanks... but first I went into the show office and demanded (and got) a refund.

Granted it was only a schooling show with 3 rings, but jeesh... oh, and it was raining too!

Ajierene
May. 18, 2009, 08:26 PM
Back in my hunter days, the one time...ONE TIME my trainer helped me out at a show, she told me my course wrong, leaving off the last two jumps and disqualifying me from the class. Needless to say, she was upset by her mistake and I was ROYALLY upset - not for the money or anything, but because I am a perfectionist and missing two jumps is inexusable to me.

This dependence on trainers astounds me....

sansibar
May. 18, 2009, 09:52 PM
I showed against a girl who had to show 5 horses, so instead of mixing her up in the order to give her time, they threw he in right at the end the barn had like 4 riders there because they needed joggers so you would think logically one of them could have warmed up the horses, nope gets on one does her round jumps off untacks goes to the next horse warms it up for 30 minutes-an hour etc. I was so upset that day, I was on a green horse who doesnt exactly stand still at these shows so it was quite annoying waiting there all day for this girl. I clearly expressed myself to the show manager but did they care..nope.

Hopeful Hunter
May. 18, 2009, 10:16 PM
You know...even though I'm a notorious nervous wreck at horse shows, I have gone in alone.

Now, it wasn't rated, no, but the shows mattered to me. I went in alone because:

a. My trainers - yes, more than one has done this!, warmed me up in the morning, we reviewed how my horse was going, how I was doing, and got things as smooth as could be.

b. We reviewed the course and choreographed it. We looked at the lines, at the striding, at possible distractions. Sometimes we planned it down to where I'd breathe; sometimes I'd offer my idea of how to ride it and we'd just fine tune that.

c. We watched some rounds, reviewed again, and I was always left feeling I could do it. Now, someone was designated to hold my hand and play "adult child's show mom" I admit, but that may have been another rider, or someone else from the barn.

d. We always reviewed after, and my trainer got info from others who saw the round.

And if it's a hack, I EXPECT not to have a trainer there! The riders who are doing o/f courses get priority.

If I can do it, I really think anyone can. The big barns can surely designate SOMEONE to tape rounds if the trainer isn't there; someone can be a designated asst trainer and/or groom, too.

As to dealing with multiple horses, on some days my incredibly kind friend Courtney has shown up to 4 horses in a division, sometimes including mine. We have two people holding the horses and ready with their tack; we put them in the order of go to allow for the ones that need warm up and the ones that can pretty much march in, and we try to move it along. Sometimes I may hack one of them for her, and if so, we switch tack as quickly as we can and just get on with it. I honestly don't think is all the years I've shown with her she's ever held up a ring more than 10 minutes even under those circumstances.

Now, a good gatekeeper can help! We do have a local trainer who is notorious for holding rings. But the good gatekeepers will ask the judge to run an open card with another class or do something to prevent an empty ring.

If I was paying the kind of money a rated show charges, I would expect an enforced gate call time. I just think it's respectful of the majority to do so, and last I checked, the majority brings in more money than one person!

Coppers mom
May. 18, 2009, 10:57 PM
Greg- If you can't at least start your warm up without your trainer, then you aren't competent enough to show at the level. Your trainer can't (shouldn't) coach you in the ring, what you going to do when you're out there by yourself if you need them holding your hand like that in the warm up? (you collectively, not personally). If a junior can't warm up her horse, she shouldn't be jumping that big. If a 12 year old can't ride the green pony, she shouldn't be showing him.

I remember I was at an AA show doing the 15-17 eq, and all but 5 of us scratched. I was all by my lonesome, but the 4 other girls had the same trainer. Well, I did my two rounds, and proceeded to wait 40 minutes. The judge finally had enough, and pinned the two over fences classes, and started calling for the flat class. One girl came, but the other 3 were so sure that they'd just keep waiting that they finished warming up over fences. Boy were they ticked when they finally showed up and realized that the flat class was just finishing with only 2 people! This type of thing shouldn't happen. If you can't even warm up on the flat and pop over a few cross rails, you shouldn't be there.

Moesha
May. 19, 2009, 10:00 AM
I don't think anyone is arguing about delays that are simply outrageous and uncalled for, and if you have problems with delays take it up with the management of the show...make a point to say something....but delays are going to happen..and honestly if you want to go in the ring and show without a trainer have at it....but if the show management recognizes a delay and accepts that at the ingate than that is something you have to accept as well...a trainer eating a cheeseburger....not so much, a trainer with a hunter doing back to back trips in Ring 5 whith priority over a jumper in Ring 2 something you have to deal with...it takes a lot to prep a horse just right..some need a simple canter around once and two fences, others need certain prep work that someone can't do on their own...without a trainer on the ground setting up certain fences, etc....

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 10:17 AM
I don't think anyone is arguing about delays that are simply outrageous and uncalled for, and if you have problems with delays take it up with the management of the show...make a point to say something....but delays are going to happen..and honestly if you want to go in the ring and show without a trainer have at it....but if the show management recognizes a delay and accepts that at the ingate than that is something you have to accept as well...a trainer eating a cheeseburger....not so much, a trainer with a hunter doing back to back trips in Ring 5 whith priority over a jumper in Ring 2 something you have to deal with...it takes a lot to prep a horse just right..some need a simple canter around once and two fences, others need certain prep work that someone can't do on their own...without a trainer on the ground setting up certain fences, etc....

What I don't get is why EVERYONE ELSE has to wait.

If for whatever reason the schedule doesn't work out for you that day, then don't show.

Nobody gets to call American Airlines on the way to the airport and say, "Well, what do you want me to do, my kid was running a fever and the nanny was late and there was a hold up with picking up the dry cleaning and now there is an accident on the interstate and none of this is my fault that I just can't get there on time could you please hold the flight for me? Thanks." The option there is to miss your flight and take the next one, not expect the rest of the plane to delay their day for you.

If a horse requires special preparation then it requires special planning on the part of his connections to get to the ring. It should not involve special waiting on everyone else's part.

For the record, while I am fine with doing it myself in a pinch, my trainer usually DOES warm me up before my horse and I step into the ring. I have no problem if people want their trainer to help them put their best foot forward. That is the usual plan for me too, but if it doesn't work out that way for us it is not the rest of the horse shows obligation to humor us.

If for some reason there was a conflict between rings or my trainer was otherwise unavailable, I would either
1.) warm up myself and handle it (any person on the ground can set rails, btw. they don't have to be a trainer to understand "up two and wider")

OR if my horse and I were having a special needs day

2.) scratch rather than holding up the whole show.

I am missing the logic where one person's scheduling conflict becomes EVERYBODY'S scheduling conflict.

Moesha
May. 19, 2009, 10:37 AM
What I don't get is why EVERYONE ELSE has to wait.

If for whatever reason the schedule doesn't work out for you that day, then don't show.

Nobody gets to call American Airlines on the way to the airport and say, "Well, what do you want me to do, my kid was running a fever and the nanny was late and there was a hold up with picking up the dry cleaning and now there is an accident on the interstate and none of this is my fault that I just can't get there on time could you please hold the flight for me? Thanks." The option there is to miss your flight and take the next one, not expect the rest of the plane to delay their day for you.

If a horse requires special preparation then it requires special planning on the part of his connections to get to the ring. It should not involve special waiting on everyone else's part.

For the record, while I am fine with doing it myself in a pinch, my trainer usually DOES warm me up before my horse and I step into the ring. I have no problem if people want their trainer to help them put their best foot forward. That is the usual plan for me too, but if it doesn't work out that way for us it is not the rest of the horse shows obligation to humor us.

If for some reason there was a conflict between rings or my trainer was otherwise unavailable, I would either
1.) warm up myself and handle it (any person on the ground can set rails, btw. they don't have to be a trainer to understand "up two and wider")

OR if my horse and I were having a special needs day

2.) scratch rather than holding up the whole show.

I am missing the logic where one person's scheduling conflict becomes EVERYBODY'S scheduling conflict.


Because people can't wait 20 minutes for someone at a Horse Show? You are honestly suggesting any horse that is late to the ingate should scratch? That is pretty unrealisitc... Sure it is easy if you do local shows where classes are $15 to tell someone to scratch and parade around with a holier than thou attitude..but when your classic is $350 for one class, I'm going to want a little more than yelling at someone "up one more and wider"...because I have an amaterur card and work 60+ hours a week...so forgive me If for some reason, since I have never really done so, hold up the ring for 15 minutes to finish my school with my trainer who was delayed....because of some hold up in another ring earlier...

Alterrain
May. 19, 2009, 10:44 AM
IMO - Just because they have riders in more than one ring, doesn't mean they're more important than I am.

Sure it does.

A lot of the big junior riders, in my area at least, have three or four JR jumpers, two JR hunters in each group, and an EQ horse. If it's sunday, and the classic is going in the GP ring, and the JR hunters are going, and the WIHS hunter phase medal class all at the same time, forget it! This happened to my every single sunday at thermal. (my adult eq went after the WIHS medal.) There were three riders in particular that would do ALL their jumpers (plus jump offs!) then ALL the hunters (plus jogs!) THEN make their way over to do EQ! after getting water from the VIP. It was at least an hour of empty ring. But show management WILL hold the rings for them, because those three juniors had thirty horses between them!! = $$$$


Sorry, but they are more important than us. :) Put the horse back in the stall/ trailer, and go get some lunch. You're going to be here a while.

Hunter Mom
May. 19, 2009, 10:45 AM
I just have a hard time believing that, especially with large classes/divisions where they have hte cards open for sometimes hours, that there wasn't any better way than to have your horse go last. WAAAAYYYY last. Thankfully, the last few shows we've gone to, the management has been good about keeping things going and making the trainers figure out how to get people through instead of making others wait on the trainers.

Moesha
May. 19, 2009, 10:55 AM
I just have a hard time believing that, especially with large classes/divisions where they have hte cards open for sometimes hours, that there wasn't any better way than to have your horse go last. WAAAAYYYY last. Thankfully, the last few shows we've gone to, the management has been good about keeping things going and making the trainers figure out how to get people through instead of making others wait on the trainers.

And that is part of being a good trainer is being organized and knowing the class counts and communicating with the ingate and keepign things running smoothly for your clients...and subsequently doing your part to help keep the show running smoothly....who wants to hold up the ring? Seriously, you think the rider who is holding up the ring is happy they are now having to school at the end knowing people are not happy about it??

All I am saying is that things happen...and no one should add stress to themselves or their horses by being upset....some delays are avoidable and are infuriating others are not and should be understood....and waiting 15-20 minutes for the class before yours is not the same as 2 hours! Of course it pisses people off....but enough holier than thou about peoples horsemanship and look at the situation objectively...

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 11:08 AM
Because people can't wait 20 minutes for someone at a Horse Show? You are honestly suggesting any horse that is late to the ingate should scratch? That is pretty unrealisitc... Sure it is easy if you do local shows where classes are $15 to tell someone to scratch and parade around with a holier than thou attitude..but when your classic is $350 for one class, I'm going to want a little more than yelling at someone "up one more and wider"...because I have an amaterur card and work 60+ hours a week...so forgive me If for some reason, since I have never really done so, hold up the ring for 15 minutes to finish my school with my trainer who was delayed....because of some hold up in another ring earlier...

TWENTY minutes?

You seriously expect the rest of the competitors (30+ people at a big show, not to mention the 30+ people in the division behind you and then everyone in the divisions after that, most of whom have grooms/family members/friends/whoever else also hanging around, not to mention the stewards and the announcers and the judge who also would like to go home eventually) to whistle a tune and obligingly humor you while you school at your leisure for TWENTY MINUTES?

All of these people are supposed to put their day on hold for as long as you feel you need (because you paid your money, which apparently you don't think anyone else did) so that you can have your experience just as optimal for yourself as you would like it to be?

And *I* am the one parading around with the holier than thou attitude??!

Good lord.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 11:13 AM
And that is part of being a good trainer is being organized and knowing the class counts and communicating with the ingate and keepign things running smoothly for your clients..

It is part of being a good SPORTSMAN too.

At some point it is the RIDER'S sportsmanly responsibility to do their part to make sure the day goes well for all of the other competitors. (One could even really go out on a limb and find out about the class counts by communicating with the ingate oneself...amazing, but true.)

It is not just, "Oh well my trainer didn't make sure things ran smoothly for me, sorry guys, guess you'll have to wait!"

Trixie
May. 19, 2009, 11:24 AM
The problem with 20 minutes is how quickly it becomes two hours, or more. If there are just five people over the course of the day with 20 minute delays, that's over an hour and a half right there.

And when you always seem to be showing in the last division of the day, those two hours are the difference between leaving at 7 and managing to be unloaded and back home and fed by 9 or 10, or leaving at 9 and not getting home from the barn until 11-12.

Makes a huge difference when it's a Sunday night and you're trying to get up at o-dark-thirty for work the next morning despite a long and physically taxing weekend.

And while I get it that it's expensive, it's the same price for all of us. Why is one person's time more valuable than anyone else's?

Madeline
May. 19, 2009, 11:50 AM
What I don't get is why EVERYONE ELSE has to wait.

If for whatever reason the schedule doesn't work out for you that day, then don't show.

...If for some reason there was a conflict between rings or my trainer was otherwise unavailable, I would either
1.) warm up myself and handle it (any person on the ground can set rails, btw. they don't have to be a trainer to understand "up two and wider")

OR if my horse and I were having a special needs day

2.) scratch rather than holding up the whole show.

I am missing the logic where one person's scheduling conflict becomes EVERYBODY'S scheduling conflict.

I'm liking the way you think.

Madeline
May. 19, 2009, 11:56 AM
Because people can't wait 20 minutes for someone at a Horse Show? You are honestly suggesting any horse that is late to the ingate should scratch? That is pretty unrealisitc... Sure it is easy if you do local shows where classes are $15 to tell someone to scratch and parade around with a holier than thou attitude..but when your classic is $350 for one class, I'm going to want a little more than yelling at someone "up one more and wider"...because I have an amaterur card and work 60+ hours a week...so forgive me If for some reason, since I have never really done so, hold up the ring for 15 minutes to finish my school with my trainer who was delayed....because of some hold up in another ring earlier...

And so then you have six people who are "entitled" to have their ill-scheduling trainer cause a 15 minute hold. There's an hour and a half. No, I'm not going to forgive you for that 15 minute hold. If you paid $350 for a classic ( or $30 for an adult hunter warm-up class),you (and your "trainer") should be able to get there on time. No excuses for selfish behavior. Even if you are an amateur who works 60 hours a week.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 12:03 PM
And so then you have six people who are "entitled" to have their ill-scheduling trainer cause a 15 minute hold. There's an hour and a half. No, I'm not going to forgive you for that 15 minute hold. If you paid $350 for a classic ( or $30 for an adult hunter warm-up class),you (and your "trainer") should be able to get there on time. No excuses for selfish behavior. Even if you are an amateur who works 60 hours a week.

Maybe if competitors knew they were going to be out the entry fees, tough titties, if they didn't get their heinies to the ring on time, they would MAKE IT THEIR BUSINESS to be proactive and take responsibility, instead of just shrugging their shoulders and expecting everyone else to make sure their day goes smoothly for them.

Somehow I don't think the same people will show up twenty minutes late for a flight -simply because they know the plane will leave without them. If their trainer was their ride to the airport and the time was getting tight bc the trainer was farting around with other customers, those same clients would probably call the trainer and say, "GET YOUR HEINIE OVER HERE I AM GOING TO MISS MY FLIGHT IF YOU DON'T," or they would make alternative arrangements to get to the airport. And quick.

bumknees
May. 19, 2009, 12:13 PM
Sure it does.

A lot of the big junior riders, in my area at least, have three or four JR jumpers, two JR hunters in each group, and an EQ horse. If it's sunday, and the classic is going in the GP ring, and the JR hunters are going, and the WIHS hunter phase medal class all at the same time, forget it! This happened to my every single sunday at thermal. (my adult eq went after the WIHS medal.) There were three riders in particular that would do ALL their jumpers (plus jump offs!) then ALL the hunters (plus jogs!) THEN make their way over to do EQ! after getting water from the VIP. It was at least an hour of empty ring. But show management WILL hold the rings for them, because those three juniors had thirty horses between them!! = $$$$


Sorry, but they are more important than us. :) Put the horse back in the stall/ trailer, and go get some lunch. You're going to be here a while.

Why are they more important than anyone else who paid their entry fee's. Is it just because they are riding 10 horse each? More power to them if they can afford that both financially and mentally/physically.. But just because they can do 10 horses each doesnt mean they are any more important than anyone else who have paid their entries at that particular show.

Moesha
May. 19, 2009, 12:27 PM
TWENTY minutes?

You seriously expect the rest of the competitors (30+ people at a big show, not to mention the 30+ people in the division behind you and then everyone in the divisions after that, most of whom have grooms/family members/friends/whoever else also hanging around, not to mention the stewards and the announcers and the judge who also would like to go home eventually) to whistle a tune and obligingly humor you while you school at your leisure for TWENTY MINUTES?

All of these people are supposed to put their day on hold for as long as you feel you need (because you paid your money, which apparently you don't think anyone else did) so that you can have your experience just as optimal for yourself as you would like it to be?

And *I* am the one parading around with the holier than thou attitude??!

Good lord.

Wow you have a serious problem...big enough chip on your shoulder? I was giving a hypothetical situation using myself as an example...not that I have ever held up a ring...but you obviously have issues....do you even attend A shows? Seriously the comments being made on this thread show some evidence of some bitter people who don't even seem to want to READ a persons entire post....no one said holding up rings is something anyone would want to do...you didn't comment on any of that did you and the fact that many hold ups are inexcusable but some are valid...valid enough for the show management to allow? And frankly people some of the comments show a lack of experience at the bigger shows...

next time someone holds up your ring for whatever reason and no matter how big a name or how much of a friend, put your money where your mouth is instead of attacking people behind a screen name for pointing out variables for situations where the ring might be held up and that going in the ring without your trainer is simply not an option for most people showing on the circuit...

Coppers mom
May. 19, 2009, 12:40 PM
I think that when the classes are smaller (like in the example of 30 horses, but with only 3 or 4 riders between them), a little waiting is to be expected. Nothing over 30 minutes, but a little delay is unavoidable. It's not that they're more important, it's just not doable, even if they have someone else warm the horse up on the flat. I usually just go get a soda and let my horse have a little breather.

However, when the class is large and there's plenty of time to space out your rides? No excuses. That's just poor management, and everyone else shouldn't have to wait around. It's as simple as not spreading yourself too thin, and having your stuff organized. I've groomed for 15 horses at a show, and everyone managed to get to their classes on time without any hold up. Everyone else can surely do that too. It's not that hard.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 12:45 PM
Wow you have a serious problem...big enough chip on your shoulder? I was giving a hypothetical situation using myself as an example...not that I have ever held up a ring...but you obviously have issues....do you even attend A shows? Seriously the comments being made on this thread show some evidence of some bitter people who don't even seem to want to READ a persons entire post....no one said holding up rings is something anyone would want to do...you didn't comment on any of that did you and the fact that many hold ups are inexcusable but some are valid...valid enough for the show management to allow? And frankly people some of the comments show a lack of experience at the bigger shows...

next time someone holds up your ring for whatever reason and no matter how big a name or how much of a friend, put your money where your mouth is instead of attacking people behind a screen name for pointing out variables for situations where the ring might be held up and that going in the ring without your trainer is simply not an option for most people showing on the circuit...

I do indeed show at rated shows.
In fact one of mine was entered at Devon for next Thursday though in the interests of full disclosure we decided to scratch. Count on him being there for next year though.

Amazingly I am an amateur who works a city job too, and I can still get multiple horses schooled under the eye of my trainer and then to the ring ON TIME, doing my own mucking, grooming, braiding, tacking, putting away, getting the next horse and starting all over again, and if we are showing out of the truck making sure everyone is offered water throughout the day.

If other people can't get to the ring within 20 minutes of the person before them because their trainer isn't making stuff go smoothly for them, I have difficulty sympathizing.

SED
May. 19, 2009, 12:52 PM
Moesha, I have been to lots of A shows over many years. And I AM bitter. I am bitter at the willingness of people to be so selfish -- just because there are no consequences. I firmly believe that if people were given a small but reasonable amount of time to get their horses in the ring or they were required to scratch, those horses would magically appear. And would perform just fine. And we would all get to go home at a decent hour.

If other disciplines can do it, so can we in the H/J world. We just choose not to.

People are attacking you not in a personal way, but because your statement appeared to imply that it is "no big deal" to hold up a ring for 20 minutes, where the vast majority of us here believe it is a VERY big deal. I think, unintentionally, the tone of your post was exactly what 3 pages of posters have been complaining about.

Keep in mind the cumulative effect of each person thinking that 10, 15, 20 mnutes is "no big deal".

The inability for people to keep on time is why my husband and my parents almost never got to see my daughter ride. Its why we can't build a good spectator base for our sport. I was originally told that one of the big advantages of A and AA shows is that they keep people on time and enforce schedules. I have found that to be completely not true, much to my disappointment.

Moesha
May. 19, 2009, 12:55 PM
I do indeed show at rated shows.
In fact one of mine was entered at Devon for next Thursday though in the interests of full disclosure we decided to scratch. Count on him being there for next year though.

Amazingly I am an amateur who works a city job too, and I can still get multiple horses schooled under the eye of my trainer and then to the ring ON TIME, doing my own mucking, grooming, braiding, tacking, putting away, getting the next horse and starting all over again, and if we are showing out of the truck making sure everyone is offered water throughout the day.

If other people can't get to the ring within 20 minutes of the person before them because their trainer isn't making stuff go smoothly for them, I have difficulty sympathizing.

Thats awesome, honestly it is, hats off to you for doing all of that and being so accomplished...but still you know the culture of the show world and that some people are not as experienced and not as independent as others...and some hold ups are going to happen....I am happy that I haven't really have to deal with them, mainly doing the jumpers we show in our class and go back to the barn if the results are 4 hours hours later fine...my horse is bathed, grazed wrapped, fed and away for the night....I just think I would hope, not matter how pissed off or inconveinent to me, I would take a breath and maybe try to see why the ring is held up...you just never know when you might need that kindess or understanding from someone back.....

and I still say if it is so bothersome say something to management, fill out the USEF show evaluation form , or say something to the offending trainer/rider.... here it is preaching to the choir in many ways....none of us want to hold up the ring or have to wait hours....

Come Shine
May. 19, 2009, 12:56 PM
Sorry, but they are more important than us. :) Put the horse back in the stall/ trailer, and go get some lunch. You're going to be here a while.

O-kay. That's honest. Not great but honest, I guess. :)

But at least let me know that it's going to be an hour so I have another option besides staying beside the ring so I don't miss MY turn because they sure as heck won't be holding the ring for me.

Greg
May. 19, 2009, 02:25 PM
Wow you have a serious problem...big enough chip on your shoulder? I was giving a hypothetical situation using myself as an example...not that I have ever held up a ring...but you obviously have issues....do you even attend A shows? Seriously the comments being made on this thread show some evidence of some bitter people who don't even seem to want to READ a persons entire post....no one said holding up rings is something anyone would want to do...you didn't comment on any of that did you and the fact that many hold ups are inexcusable but some are valid...valid enough for the show management to allow? And frankly people some of the comments show a lack of experience at the bigger shows...

next time someone holds up your ring for whatever reason and no matter how big a name or how much of a friend, put your money where your mouth is instead of attacking people behind a screen name for pointing out variables for situations where the ring might be held up and that going in the ring without your trainer is simply not an option for most people showing on the circuit...
Thanks Moesha, they were killin' me!

I do not personally know a single trainer that enjoys delays. I appreciate all the references to AIRPORT schedules - but - a horse show is NOT an airport, and it is not that simple. Furthermore - if you still insist on running with the Airport comparison - sometimes planes are late too!

I appreciate the annoyance of people who have to wait. I also have to say again that most people do not create a delay out of disregard or poor planning even. Delays cannot be forseen by all. Someone may fall, or the judge has to pee, or something creates the snowball, and the original 5 minute delay grows, especialy if a trainer is at one end of the complex. Leaving one ring and sprinting half a mile to another ring to fit in a school over there is not always an option.

I agree with Moesha that it seems like the majority of the people voicing an angry opinion on this thread, do not show competitively or regularly on the Rated level. MEUPATDOES, thats wonderful that you qualified for Devon. May I ask in what division?

One last point before I bow out of this spirited debate. What if I chose to go in the ring without my trainer, and I crash? If my trainer is not there - A) who has my info handy? phone numbers, drug allergies, pre-existing conditions. B.) Who's going to take my horse?

I go to shows alone. My trainer is the only person with my info. The office may have my phone numbers, but they certainly don't know that I am on
beta blockers, or that morphine will kill me, or any of those pertinent details.

I'm an adult, should a junior go in the ring without an adult present?

I certainly never meant for my comments to set off such a vitrolic response. My apologies if I offended anyone. My main point was to clarify that it is not out of disrespect for others that I choose to wait for my trainer should a conflict arise.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 03:00 PM
I do not personally know a single trainer that enjoys delays. I appreciate all the references to AIRPORT schedules - but - a horse show is NOT an airport, and it is not that simple. Furthermore - if you still insist on running with the Airport comparison - sometimes planes are late too!

Do you not understand the difference between the fact that no plane is going to wait for one passenger who couldn't get their act together like everyone else, and the fact that all the passengers have to wait if there is a storm and the plane is delayed?

One of those is an extenuating circumstance.
The other one of those is one person making everyone else wait for them because they can't get with the program.



MEUPATDOES, thats wonderful that you qualified for Devon. May I ask in what division?
What, you want my acceptance letter now?
Young hunters U/S.
I was not aware that common courtesy was a division specific thing, but whatever.



One last point before I bow out of this spirited debate. What if I chose to go in the ring without my trainer, and I crash? If my trainer is not there - A) who has my info handy? phone numbers, drug allergies, pre-existing conditions. B.) Who's going to take my horse?

I go to shows alone. My trainer is the only person with my info. The office may have my phone numbers, but they certainly don't know that I am on
beta blockers, or that morphine will kill me, or any of those pertinent details.

Do you never drive your car anywhere without your trainer present?
WHAT IF YOU GOT INTO AN ACCIDENT ON THE HIGHWAY?

Meanwhile, if you are really concerned, bring along a piece of paper with your info on it, tuck it into your pocket, and hand it to the steward before going in if you really want to cover all of your bases.

Since you have to deal with your allergies even when your trainer is not around, I'm sure you can figure out how to handle your medical situation without making the world revolve around you at a horse show as well.

Trixie
May. 19, 2009, 03:03 PM
I agree with Moesha that it seems like the majority of the people voicing an angry opinion on this thread, do not show competitively or regularly on the Rated level. MEUPATDOES, thats wonderful that you qualified for Devon. May I ask in what division?

Other horse sports manage to run events on a time schedule, regardless of the “level” of competition. I grew up showing mostly at “A” shows, and I’m well aware of the fact that it’s done ALL.THE.TIME - however, just because it happens consistently doesn’t mean it isn’t disruptive.


One last point before I bow out of this spirited debate. What if I chose to go in the ring without my trainer, and I crash? If my trainer is not there - A) who has my info handy? phone numbers, drug allergies, pre-existing conditions. B.) Who's going to take my horse?

I go to shows alone. My trainer is the only person with my info. The office may have my phone numbers, but they certainly don't know that I am on beta blockers, or that morphine will kill me, or any of those pertinent details.

Many folks bring their own ground crew, a friend, a significant other.

If one is so concerned about having “info” handy, one can easily type it onto a card and give it to show management or the gate person, or keep it on one’s person. Who’s to say you won’t get trampled walking alone across the show grounds? Or hit by a car walking down the sidewalk? Do what my grandmother does and wear a medic alert bracelet, since apparently your trainer isn’t at your side at all times, if she’s busy across the showgrounds.


Since you have to deal with your allergies even when your trainer is not around, I'm sure you can figure out how to handle your medical situation without making the world revolve around you at a horse show as well.

:yes:

Greg
May. 19, 2009, 03:48 PM
I still intend to bow out of the topic, but I want to address a response to MEUPATDOES, as she seems offended at my question regarding her division at Devon.

My inquery stemmed more from your assumption that you would automatically qualify for next years show. Most people who qualify for Devon fight for points, and wait with bated breath for the list to go up. The difficulty in regards to qualifying has a relation to my stance on the issue at hand. Every show matters when you are trying to qualify. If you were a participant at Devon in the A/Os, or First Years etc... then I would have to reflect more deeply on your point of view on the whole delay topic. I am sorry if you object to my question. Good Luck with your young hunter.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 03:55 PM
I still intend to bow out of the topic, but I want to address a response to MEUPATDOES, as she seems offended at my question regarding her division at Devon.

My inquery stemmed more from your assumption that you would automatically qualify for next years show. Most people who qualify for Devon fight for points, and wait with bated breath for the list to go up. The difficulty in regards to qualifying has a relation to my stance on the issue at hand. Every show matters when you are trying to qualify. If you were a participant at Devon in the A/Os, or First Years etc... then I would have to reflect more deeply on your point of view on the whole delay topic. I am sorry if you object to my question. Good Luck with your young hunter.

I don't understand why the fact that somebody is or is not trying to qualify for something (and it is not like I have never ridden for points in my life) has anything to do with whether the whole rest of the show should wait for them to do it...?

Suddenly when the 3yo is all growed up and doing the A/Os everyone can wait while I get me my points?

I would view this as further incentive to get to the ring on time and not have the class end without me, not justification for the whole rest of the show waiting for me to be good and ready.

Trixie
May. 19, 2009, 04:02 PM
If you were a participant at Devon in the A/Os, or First Years etc... then I would have to reflect more deeply on your point of view on the whole delay topic.

Are you saying you take more stock in someone's basic perspective of manners after they've provided you with references?

I still don't understand why we're waiting around for someone else to get their bearings when everyone else is apparently ready and organized, just because it's more personally important to them because they're trying to qualify for indoors/devon/whatever.

If it's that important to them, they're probably more likely to be on time.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 04:11 PM
Are you saying you take more stock in someone's basic perspective of manners after they've provided you with references?

I still don't understand why we're waiting around for someone else to get their bearings when everyone else is apparently ready and organized, just because it's more personally important to them because they're trying to qualify for indoors/devon/whatever.

If it's that important to them, they're probably more likely to be on time.

If I understand it correctly, the premise is, "I am trying to qualify so it is really important to me to have the best trip possible so that I can get my points so if I have to wait for my trainer then everyone does too, because I am trying to qualify here and I don't want to set foot in the ring until I am good and ready and professionally prepped, after all it's hard and expensive to qualify so everyone should wait while I get all the help and take all the time to school I desire."

The converse premise, as I understand it, is that if you aren't trying to qualify a poor performance wouldn't matter as much to you, and thus point-chasers are more justified than a non-point chaser would be to make the whole show wait for them while they school.

A non-point chaser in any particular year/division/region should understand how important each point is to the point-chaser and therefore should be willing to wait for the point-chaser's trainer along with the point-chaser and everyone else.

The point-chasers points are important to the point-chaser, and therefore the show's sun, earth and moon should revolve around the point-chaser getting them points.

Ghazzu
May. 19, 2009, 04:19 PM
It's as simple as not spreading yourself too thin, and having your stuff organized.

'Nuff said.

2bayboys
May. 19, 2009, 04:33 PM
I regularly go to local shows by myself, no trainer, no ground person, no mommy, etc. I get myself and Baby Horse schooled and in the ring, and I almost always volunteer to go first. That way I get my trips out of the way and I don't mind at all going to sit in the shade until it's time to go hack. Baby Horse is very straightforward and easy to get to the ring, especially at the local shows where he can jump one or two little fences and go on in.

At a rated show, however, it would be very difficult for me to get prepped appropriately with Older Horse without assistance from trainer. O.H. needs a very specific prep to be able to have a good trip in the ring, and at rated shows I need a trainer to get me that dedicated jump in the schooling area and set up the poles (pull out ground line, raise right side of jump only, set jump for the height I'm showing, etc). Without trainer in the schooling ring, it can be very hard just to get a jump AT ALL.

I understand the multiple rings and the difficulty some trainers have with making sure all of their clients are properly prepared. But I'm going to be there all day anyway, so what is the big deal?

Groom to Priceless
May. 19, 2009, 04:44 PM
Really good horse shows have excellent gate staff that avoid many conflicts. They are proactive; they know the trainers by sight; they know who is fast, who is flexible. Really good trainers are efficient and very skilled at being where they need to be. Those trainers are good business people who are smart enough to hire assistants to get the job done. Really good clients are on time and efficient in their warmup. They don't require too much coddling from their trainers. There you go folks- maybe it's time for an upgrade.


Ummm . . .I was sort of thinking along these same lines. Conflicts happen. It's the nature of the business. But in our little world, Mr. Wise Trainer always seems to have called the gate staff in advance to work out any conflicts between rings. Most often the staff knows where he is in these cases (which other ring) and the two rings and Mr. Wise Trainer have worked out the timing with little or no empty ring issues. I won't be foolish enough to say that the ring NEVER waits for Mr. WT, but when it does the wait is minimal. There are many classes that DD is sent to the ring to warm up her pony on her own (gasp) and when Mr. WT or his assistant arrive she is ready to jump a few jumps and go in . . .

I must say, liberal use of cell phones and radios does make the world run pretty smoothly for Mr. WT. I would think that as long as he is communication with the gate everyone's schedule is happy.

On the flip side, we got a giggle at the show this past weekend when the announcer for DD's ring was paging her by name throughout the showgrounds. . . " DD Please come to the ring with your Medium Pony. We are waiting for you . . . " Uhh . . .last we checked we were signed up for the large pony classes! Before Miss Assistant Trainer could get on the phone and correct the mistake the entire show grounds heard: "Never mind DD, we will see you with the larges!!"

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 04:45 PM
I regularly go to local shows by myself, no trainer, no ground person, no mommy, etc. I get myself and Baby Horse schooled and in the ring, and I almost always volunteer to go first. That way I get my trips out of the way and I don't mind at all going to sit in the shade until it's time to go hack. Baby Horse is very straightforward and easy to get to the ring, especially at the local shows where he can jump one or two little fences and go on in.

At a rated show, however, it would be very difficult for me to get prepped appropriately with Older Horse without assistance from trainer. O.H. needs a very specific prep to be able to have a good trip in the ring, and at rated shows I need a trainer to get me that dedicated jump in the schooling area and set up the poles (pull out ground line, raise right side of jump only, set jump for the height I'm showing, etc). Without trainer in the schooling ring, it can be very hard just to get a jump AT ALL.

I understand the multiple rings and the difficulty some trainers have with making sure all of their clients are properly prepared. But I'm going to be there all day anyway, so what is the big deal?


The difference has nothing to do with how easy or difficult a horse is to prep, or how important a particular class is to a particular participant.

I too, prefer to have my trainer help me out.

If it is really important to people to have a trainer help them on a particular day, it should be really important to them to make sure both they and the trainer get there in time.

If they can't get that done for whatever reason, their fault or not, they should suck it up.

Not say, "Oh well, guess everyone ELSE has to suck it up and wait for me until the stars align in my favor."

People just aren't getting that their trip, or their points, or their schooling experience, or their nerves, or their horse's particular quirks, or their allergies for Christ's sake, shouldn't take precedence over all the other competitors in line behind them at the show.

Go Fish
May. 19, 2009, 05:00 PM
Greg and Moesha...if it helps, I'm on your side. Sheesh...all points aside, these are freakin' horseshows...not world peace. People, this is not going to end life as you know it. Rude, inconsiderate people are everywhere. I believe it's the exception at horseshows, not the rule. Buck up and get some patience...it will serve you well in life.

enjoytheride
May. 19, 2009, 05:08 PM
So what would happen if the gates closed similar to eventing, you have between 9:30am - 10:30am to ride. That's it. Don't show up at 10:40 and expect to go in.

Would people showing hunters miss left and right or would the trainer warm up system adjust?

Go Fish
May. 19, 2009, 05:11 PM
So what would happen if the gates closed similar to eventing, you have between 9:30am - 10:30am to ride. That's it. Don't show up at 10:40 and expect to go in.

Would people showing hunters miss left and right or would the trainer warm up system adjust?

You're making the assumption that trainers are doing this deliberately...I really don't think the majority of them are.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 05:18 PM
You're making the assumption that trainers are doing this deliberately...I really don't think the majority of them are.

Her post has nothing to do with whether the trainers are doing it 'deliberately'.

It has everything to do with wondering why people in the eventing discipline, as one example, can accept the fact that you have to show up on time if you want to get to play, but in the hunters people think it's ok for the whole rest of the show to wait while their trainer comes to adjust their schooling jump ground pole just right.

What do you think dressage people do when their trainer is helping someone at another ring because management couldn't accommodate everyone's ride time preferences, or someone else fell off earlier and all those ring's ride times got messed up, but their ride time in their ring is at T-2 seconds?

Coppers mom
May. 19, 2009, 05:22 PM
Go Fish- No one's saying they're doing it on purpose. But at an Event, trainers can have just as many clients, but the dressage ring and XC course can be miles away, much farther away than any of the H/J shows, or even at different locations. The point was that these trainers can manage it, so couldn't the H/J trainers manage it as well?

And seriously? The level people show at directly influences whether they get to bitch about waiting? What a ridiculous thing to say. If the podunk 4-H shows with 2 volunteers for 3 rings I went to while growing up could manage to keep classes moving, then so can a large show with enough people to run things.

eclipse
May. 19, 2009, 05:27 PM
And this is why I like showing at shows like Spruce Meadows. They have a posted order of go for every ring and will not hold the gate. If you know you are going to have a ring conflict for YOU personally (say you are showing in 2 rings, both starting at the same time & you are in 10th or so for each ring, they will move you down in the go order upon request - before the class actually starts), if there's going to be a trainer conflict, too bad, in you go!

What me & my trainer do, is I'll either walk by myself or tag along with another trainer then when I'm 10 away (they always announce the next 10 riders) I'll call my trainer on my cell phone & over she comes. If for some catastrophic reason she cannot be there (has only ever happened once) she'll send someone over to warm me up over fences & they'll report back to her how it went or she'll of organized for me to ride with another barn's trainer ahead of time!

dogchushu
May. 19, 2009, 05:52 PM
I understand conflicts and having multiple rides. I also totally understand wanting your trainer there for your round and prep. It's when people don't seem to try to minimize the delay that bothers me.

For example, if you have multiple rides, some people will bring all horses ring side and get them warmed up and ready except for the saddle and the last couple of prep fences. I don't mind waiting 5 - 10 minutes for them because they're doing the best they can. But there are others who practically start from scratch with each horse. Likewise, advanced riders (not talking short stirrup kids or newbie reriders here) really don't need trainers watching them flat. And the rider who has been warming up for 20 minutes, has their trainer with them, and still decides to take another 5 minutes of warm up with an empty ring drives me to drink!

In all honesty, it's probably a minority of participants and trainers, but (just like a screaming child) they're the ones you notice.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 06:15 PM
And this is why I like showing at shows like Spruce Meadows. They have a posted order of go for every ring and will not hold the gate. If you know you are going to have a ring conflict for YOU personally (say you are showing in 2 rings, both starting at the same time & you are in 10th or so for each ring, they will move you down in the go order upon request - before the class actually starts), if there's going to be a trainer conflict, too bad, in you go!

What me & my trainer do, is I'll either walk by myself or tag along with another trainer then when I'm 10 away (they always announce the next 10 riders) I'll call my trainer on my cell phone & over she comes. If for some catastrophic reason she cannot be there (has only ever happened once) she'll send someone over to warm me up over fences & they'll report back to her how it went or she'll of organized for me to ride with another barn's trainer ahead of time!

But what on earth would you do if you were allergic to morphine??!

Go Fish
May. 19, 2009, 06:18 PM
Her post has nothing to do with whether the trainers are doing it 'deliberately'.

It has everything to do with wondering why people in the eventing discipline, as one example, can accept the fact that you have to show up on time if you want to get to play, but in the hunters people think it's ok for the whole rest of the show to wait while their trainer comes to adjust their schooling jump ground pole just right.

What do you think dressage people do when their trainer is helping someone at another ring because management couldn't accommodate everyone's ride time preferences, or someone else fell off earlier and all those ring's ride times got messed up, but their ride time in their ring is at T-2 seconds?

Hon, I'm not going to get in a battle with you over this. I'll bet you're young...just a guess. You're that person in the grocery store line, tapping your foot, sighing heavily, rolling your eyes and muttering under your breath while the 90-year-old grandma takes two minutes to find the exact change.

I just can't get my panties in a wad over having to wait while one of my fellow HORSEMEN takes some time to ensure their horse is properly warmed up and schooled. I really and truly want everyone to do well and be safe. I'm not going to rant and rave and stew over a few inconsiderate people. I'm a grown up.

SED
May. 19, 2009, 06:24 PM
GoFish -- I agree that most trainers don't do it deliberately and out of malice. But they take the slack that's given them. That's human nature. If there is no enforcement of behavior that is inconvenient to you, or might require that you bring and pay a little extra help to keep you organized, then you won't embrace that behavior. The fact that its natural, predictable and non-malicious doesn't make it good for the sport.

Someone said earlier -- what was the big deal, we are at the show all day anyway. For many people, and families, that is the point. For their 4 rounds and a flat, they would really prefer NOT to have to be at the show grounds all day.

Go Fish
May. 19, 2009, 06:36 PM
GoFish -- I agree that most trainers don't do it deliberately and out of malice. But they take the slack that's given them. That's human nature. If there is no enforcement of behavior that is inconvenient to you, or might require that you bring and pay a little extra help to keep you organized, then you won't embrace that behavior. The fact that its natural, predictable and non-malicious doesn't make it good for the sport.

Someone said earlier -- what was the big deal, we are at the show all day anyway. For many people, and families, that is the point. For their 4 rounds and a flat, they would really prefer NOT to have to be at the show grounds all day.

I disagree...there may be a few bad apples out there, but it's been my observation that the vast majority of trainers do their best to juggle schooling, multiple rings, trainer rides, and customer rides. I've done the fire drill many times with my trainer both as an exhibitor and a helper. Just as Moesha said, sometimes the best laid plans and all...

I guess I'm more of a "water off a duck's back" sort of person. Didn't used to be, but age has a way of mellowing you out.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 06:45 PM
I disagree...there may be a few bad apples out there, but it's been my observation that the vast majority of trainers do their best to juggle schooling, multiple rings, trainer rides, and customer rides. I've done the fire drill many times with my trainer both as an exhibitor and a helper. Just as Moesha said, sometimes the best laid plans and all...

I guess I'm more of a "water off a duck's back" sort of person. Didn't used to be, but age has a way of mellowing you out.

Are you trying to say that people shouldn't be annoyed, period, or that they shouldn't act in a way that manifests their annoyance?

Because it is possible for me, at least, to be annoyed about something someone else is doing without behaving rudely myself.

I'm sure plenty of us find it very annoying when people drive 50mph in the passing lane; this does not mean that we automatically throw a tantrum, yell around in the car, flash our brights, honk and deliberately cut the other driver off.
We can be annoyed, and post in any commuting forums that might be out ther about how very annoying it is, without succumbing to road rage on the highway.

Go Fish
May. 19, 2009, 07:00 PM
Are you trying to say that people shouldn't be annoyed, period, or that they shouldn't act in a way that manifests their annoyance?

Because it is possible for me, at least, to be annoyed about something someone else is doing without behaving rudely myself.

I'm sure plenty of us find it very annoying when people drive 50mph in the passing lane; this does not mean that we automatically throw a tantrum, yell around in the car, flash our brights, honk and deliberately cut the other driver off.
We can be annoyed, and post in any commuting forums that might be out ther about how very annoying it is, without succumbing to road rage on the highway.

Have you gone to show management and voiced your concerns? I think Moesha voiced this suggestion several times and I don't think anyone claimed they did. Because if they haven't, then being annoyed doesn't hold water with me. It's kinda like people complaining about the government when they don't vote.

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 07:11 PM
Have you gone to show management and voiced your concerns? I think Moesha voiced this suggestion several times and I don't think anyone claimed they did. Because if they haven't, then being annoyed doesn't hold water with me. It's kinda like people complaining about the government when they don't vote.

As a general practice, I have no qualms about politely voicing my issues to show management when something comes up, or mentioning it as I am checking out, or whatever. I have certainly politely mentioned things to show management in the past.

Does this mean it is ok now, according to you, for me to post on COTH that people holding rings annoys me?

I have not, however, written a letter to my state senator about how annoying it is when people drive 50mph in the passing lane, so I guess it wouldn't be ok, according to you, for me to be annoyed by that. Let me just draft something quick so that it can "hold water" with you the next time someone cuts me off and I experience the emotion of annoyance as a result.

Greg
May. 19, 2009, 07:21 PM
But what on earth would you do if you were allergic to morphine??!

Sweetheart, that was not necessary. Perhaps I explained myself poorly; trying to use myself as an example. Perhaps you are trying to make me feel foolish for choosing to look at things differently?

I stand by my original principle, though... what if you crash?????? What if a junior rider, who's parents are not on the horse show grounds, and who's trainer is essentialy their guardian, sucumbs to pressure when their trainer is stuck at the Pre-green ring, walks in the ring, and crashes? The child goes to the hospital alone? The trainer is horrified? If people can't wait 10 minutes for a trainer, then they should pick up a new sport. Horse shows are usually all day affairs.

I am already chastising myself for being drawn back into a battle with people who choose to be rude about a topic of debate.

I show locally without my trainer. I show rated with my trainer. I do not attempt to qualify for Indoors anymore, but I understand and support the people who are trying. I understand people that are too timid to show without their trainer. I am a mother of 3, and show in the Adults, I usually have to get home as quickly as I can to attend a soccer game, take care of horses, or get dinner on the table. I am quite average, but I am capable of understanding that CONFLICTS happen. To some people it is more than a single day of showing (as it is for me), it is a year long, expensive, grueling DREAM for some people. I can wait for people like that! I can be impressed and supportive, and admire what they are trying to acheive. At the very least, I can be tolerant. I believe that MOST trainers DO THEIR BEST to avoid inconveniencing other people with their schedules.

Even with a morphine allergy, I'm pretty sure my attitude towards other will help me live longer ;0):winkgrin:

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 07:29 PM
I stand by my original principle, though... what if you crash?????? What if a junior rider, who's parents are not on the horse show grounds, and who's trainer is essentialy their guardian, sucumbs to pressure when their trainer is stuck at the Pre-green ring, walks in the ring, and crashes? The child goes to the hospital alone? The trainer is horrified? If people can't wait 10 minutes for a trainer, then they should pick up a new sport. Horse shows are usually all day affairs.

How do you think the people showing at Spruce Meadows handle these concerns?
How do the riders at Spruce Meadows chase their long expensive grueling dreams?

Are you saying that you and your trainer wouldn't be able or willing to do what eclipse and her trainer do, so a show like Spruce Meadows would be out of the question for you?

Or that you could get to the ring without making everyone wait for you for whatever reason, but you just choose not to make that a priority if no one is holding forfeiting the class over your head?

Greg
May. 19, 2009, 07:37 PM
Is there an option C?:lol:
I'm saying CHILL.

Go Fish
May. 19, 2009, 07:39 PM
As a general practice, I have no qualms about politely voicing my issues to show management when something comes up, or mentioning it as I am checking out, or whatever. I have certainly politely mentioned things to show management in the past.

Does this mean it is ok now, according to you, for me to post on COTH that people holding rings annoys me?

I have not, however, written a letter to my state senator about how annoying it is when people drive 50mph in the passing lane, so I guess it wouldn't be ok, according to you, for me to be annoyed by that. Let me just draft something quick so that it can "hold water" with you the next time someone cuts me off and I experience the emotion of annoyance as a result.

Complaining on a bulletin board does nothing to solve the problem. If you solve a problem, then there is nothing to complain about. Unless, of course, complaining is fun for you...

meupatdoes
May. 19, 2009, 07:50 PM
Complaining on a bulletin board does nothing to solve the problem. If you solve a problem, then there is nothing to complain about. Unless, of course, complaining is fun for you...

And just yesterday you were posting about your pet peeves to a bulletin board (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4102467#post4102467).

Complete with angry face emoticon.

ynl063w
May. 19, 2009, 08:03 PM
Can someone who actually shows at these big multi-ring shows on a regular basis chime in and tell me how often these hour-long delays where the ring is sitting empty because the trainers and/or riders are sitting around socializing and sipping tea really happen? And when did Young Hunter Under Saddle at Devon become a class you had to qualify for?

Come Shine
May. 19, 2009, 08:41 PM
Complaining on a bulletin board does nothing to solve the problem. If you solve a problem, then there is nothing to complain about. Unless, of course, complaining is fun for you...

And herein lies the quandry. The folks that are causing the problem that people are complaining about do NOT think it is a problem.

After all, it is only 20 minutes, and you are, after all, at the horse show all day, and, really when all is said and done, compared to world peace, it really isn't that big a deal. :)

lol - my Dh just chimed in - if you showed up for work every day and said, hey 20 minutes doesn't matter, well, good luck with that.

btw - I grew up at Spruce and have never understood why other places can't run a day sheet. Heck - that was even before computers!

Coppers mom
May. 19, 2009, 09:51 PM
I stand by my original principle, though... what if you crash?????? What if a junior rider, who's parents are not on the horse show grounds, and who's trainer is essentialy their guardian, sucumbs to pressure when their trainer is stuck at the Pre-green ring, walks in the ring, and crashes? The child goes to the hospital alone?
Why don't hunters wear a medical card? Eventers do, it really doesn't detract from the appearance that much, and it could be worn under the coat if it was really considered that ugly. At an event, you have to wear a medical card anytime you're jumping, and since switching over to the H/J scene, I've just never been able to figure it out.

Coppers mom
May. 19, 2009, 09:56 PM
Can someone who actually shows at these big multi-ring shows on a regular basis chime in and tell me how often these hour-long delays where the ring is sitting empty because the trainers and/or riders are sitting around socializing and sipping tea really happen?
The hour long waits don't happen that often (at least not the divisions I show in), but it all depends on the show and area I suppose. I have noticed it a lot more at C shows than the larger shows. Once I thought the pony classes were completely done in that ring (No one had gone near it in 30 minutes) and tacked my childrens hunter up and started warming up. Thank God someone mentioned that a trainer had called and was running late with 4 kids in the trailer, and the under saddle class for the larges still had to be held! :eek:

It's usually the just a couple minutes now, 15 minutes here, 10 minutes there type of waiting that really throws the show off. I've volunteered at sooo many shows where, according to entries, the class should have started at a certain time, and that's what we told everyone, but it ended up going 2 or 3 hours later.

SED
May. 19, 2009, 10:03 PM
Well said, Come Shine.

Having agreed with you, I nonetheless think WE ALL need to elevate this discussion.

There is obviously a significant disagreement within the H/J community -- even at the highest A/AA level -- about the seriousness of this problem.

This doesn't make anyone "right" or "wrong", but we need to recognize that this disconect exists. There are people unhappy with the current way of dealing with scheduling and delays. There are obviously people who recognize it as an issue, but not one that bothers them.

Horse shows are a business, and they should be able to adapt to take into account both points of view. In other words, rather than "erring" on the side of allowing unlimited delays, or creating a system of total inflexibility, shouldn't there be a way to improve timeliness and fairness to other competitors without creating really unfair situations with conflicts? Why does it have to be one or the other?

I challenge our H/J community to do a better job at scheduling, and to challenge trainers to do a better job at adapting to scheduling, without having to go to a rigid system.

Guys and gals, we CAN do this. Let's make this a positive discussion rather than a negative one.

2bayboys
May. 20, 2009, 09:34 AM
And herein lies the quandry. The folks that are causing the problem that people are complaining about do NOT think it is a problem.


Not correct. You will not be waiting at an empty ring for me, I can assure you. But while you are gnashing your teeth about said empty ring, I will have finished my trips and will be sipping my iced tea in the shade. Or rubbing on my horse, or letting him eat grass, or whatever. Because I go to horse shows to get away from the nasty world, I do not take my stress and other issues with me.

Trixie
May. 20, 2009, 09:57 AM
And herein lies the quandry. The folks that are causing the problem that people are complaining about do NOT think it is a problem.
Not correct. You will not be waiting at an empty ring for me, I can assure you. But while you are gnashing your teeth about said empty ring, I will have finished my trips and will be sipping my iced tea in the shade.

But then you're not the one causing the problem :lol:



What if a junior rider, who's parents are not on the horse show grounds, and who's trainer is essentialy their guardian, sucumbs to pressure when their trainer is stuck at the Pre-green ring, walks in the ring, and crashes? The child goes to the hospital alone? The trainer is horrified? If people can't wait 10 minutes for a trainer, then they should pick up a new sport. Horse shows are usually all day affairs.

There are cell phones, for one thing. I’m sure it’s not that difficult to get the trainer across the grounds if there was an emergency. But in that regard – where are the parents? The show barn I used to ride with would insist that there be at least a few parents on the ground to be responsible for junior riders, because the farm’s trainers were too busy to be supervising them at all times. Further, an accident could just as easily happen outside of a ring than in the ring.


It's usually the just a couple minutes now, 15 minutes here, 10 minutes there type of waiting that really throws the show off. I've volunteered at sooo many shows where, according to entries, the class should have started at a certain time, and that's what we told everyone, but it ended up going 2 or 3 hours later.

Agreed. We've frequently called a showgrounds in the morning at a local show to see if they have an ETA for a division towards the end or middle of the day. Ring delays have often held those divisions up by hours.

I think most of us can understand that some delays happen. But we really need to do a better job of collectively stopping it from going on and on and on and on. I know I've personally seen trainers arrive at the ring and not hold up the ring for a few jumps but rather a whole long flat and over fences session. It’s disrespectful both to other competitors and to the judge.

I try to patronize shows that minimize conflict as much as possible, and let them know that they’re doing a great job.

gortmore
May. 20, 2009, 10:24 AM
Eclipse I was just about to mention Spruce Meadows as well.

My trainer makes sure if they have quite a few clients that they take extra people to set fences. I love how Spruce Meadows runs but I think the difference with them is that you are requested to go to a rider meeting at the beginning of the show and at that you are reminded that as a rider you are there to entertain the spectators. Spruce Meadows has probably the best spectator base and some of that has to be based on the fact that there are no ring holds, actually I shouldn't say no ring holds, very few and they are very short.

For those who have not been to Spruce Meadows it is huge, the rings are very spread out and some of the rings are a really long hike from the stabling area. Oh yeah and it is way more money for me to show at Spruce Meadows then to show in California or locally so you can be d*** sure that people get to the ring on time and are ready to go. I think the fear of not getting to go gets people to the ring. As for conflicts if you have one between two rings you can tell them but they decide if it is a conflict or not. It happened to me, I looked at my classes knew that I was going to be in the two rings at about the same time, was told that was not correct, guess what I was on course in one ring and they were looking for me in the other ring. I rode from ring 1, and trotted straight over to the other ring and the rider in front me of me had 4 fences to go.

Spruce also preloads the rings. So as the first rider is finishing the next rider is the ring in the designated area so that there is no wait at all for someone to get into the ring.

It runs like a well oiled machine. They also set their schedules so that riders get a chance to watch other classes.

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 11:33 AM
Basically, the way for the problem to be solved is for individual competitors to take responsibility themselves, and to take a proactive role in their own horseshowing.

This thread reminds me of a thread that was on these forums maybe a year or two ago. Somebody was complaining that the horse show office was rude to people who weren't BNTs, and thought it was ridiculous that horseshows cater so much to big trainers.
My response at the time was basically, "What do you expect? Trainers basically run adult day care at shows; most clients are totally dependent on them and just do what the trainer says, half of them wouldn't know which way to twitch if their trainer disappeared; so of course the show is going to cater to the trainers."

WELL.
Didn't a whole load of people get royally p-o'ed at me.

People lined up to explain how just because they don't groom their own horse doesn't mean they don't know how, just because their trainer helps them warm up doesn't mean they couldn't do it themselves, did I think all ammys were stupid?, and these are slick ridin' ladies work hard to get to the top of their game and -and I distinctly remember this- if all the grooms and trainers suddenly fell off the face of the earth those ammy ladies would still be able to get themselves to the ring and keep that show going.


And NOW, in THIS thread, nobody except for a very few like Jsalem is mentioning the role that the CLIENTS pay in keeping the show going.


Everyone is talking about the trainers not managing their schedules. People are failing to realize that the person everyone is actually waiting for is the RIDER, not the trainer. We are all waiting for the RIDER to go in the ring and steer the horse around some jumps for two minutes.

The general perception is that if the trainer is not standing next to the client, the client is understandably adrift at sea, what is she supposed to do about it, it's not her fault that her trainer has to do day care for somebody else at the moment, people should be patient and understand this.
In fact, the people showing at the TOP levels seem to be perceived as most in need of their trainer being present, because THEIR classes are so important (to them).

In THIS thread, people have put forth the following arguments:
It is a good trainer's job to make sure the show goes smoothly for his clients.
Nobody likes to warm up way at the end while everyone is waiting, but the rider needs her day care and it isn't her fault that her day care provider was unavoidably absent, so what else is she supposed to do?
People can't warm up without their trainer because they need a professional to set the jumps for them and make the ground rails just right and so on.
"Nobody at the A level goes in the ring without their trainer."
Meanwhile, "it is not out of disrespect for others that I choose to wait for my trainer should a conflict arise," I just need my trainer to stand there and hold my medical information for me.

Whatever happened to, "If all of the trainers and grooms fell off the face of the earth these slick ridin' ammy ladies would carry on regardless?" (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2558673&highlight=those+gals+know+exactly#post2558673)

It appears that nobody feels it would be possible to follow eclipse's example.
Either they don't think it is possible, or they just would rather not, because that would require more proactive effort on the part of the client than getting shuttled through their horseshow experience like a first grader on a field trip.

Nobody seems to feel that the CLIENTS who need to take more responsibility for their own horse show experience and be more sportsmanly and considerate to their fellow competitors, rather it is the TRAINERS who need to run day care better.
But when you say, "trainers run adult day care at shows, ammys would be lost without their trainers and grooms to get them through the day" then suddenly everyone is up in a huff.

So, which is it, COTH?
Can we expect the customers to take responsibility for getting themselves in the ring? Could people -even amateurs who work a day job- be expected to take responsibility for their own trip and work it out the way everyone seems to be able to do at Spruce Meadows?

Or should we be understanding of unavoidable delays because we admit as a collective that the above is too much to ask because we all know that ammy ladies are ultimately dependent on their adult day care, and the responsibility lies with the trainers to run day care better?

Everythingbutwings
May. 20, 2009, 12:09 PM
Basically, the way for the problem to be solved is for individual competitors to take responsibility themselves, and to take a proactive role in their own horseshowing.

...Nobody seems to feel that the CLIENTS who need to take more responsibility for their own horse show experience and be more sportsmanly and considerate to their fellow competitors, rather it is the TRAINERS who need to run day care better.
But when you say, "trainers run adult day care at shows, ammys would be lost without their trainers and grooms to get them through the day" then suddenly everyone is up in a huff.

So, which is it, COTH?
Can we expect the customers to take responsibility for getting themselves in the ring? Could people -even amateurs who work a day job- be expected to take responsibility for their own trip and work it out the way everyone seems to be able to do at Spruce Meadows?

Or should we be understanding of unavoidable delays because we admit as a collective that the above is too much to ask because we all know that ammy ladies are ultimately dependent on their adult day care, and the responsibility lies with the trainers to run day care better?


WOOT! :yes:

bumknees
May. 20, 2009, 12:32 PM
Very good question meupatdoes.
My answer is that amatures and Jrs esp the older jrs should be able to do things on their own. Yeah I understand the want to go over a particularly difficult course with trainer but your average course the rider shold be able to go in with out their trainer standing right there holding their hand. Now I might understand say a kid under 10/ 11 yrs old wanting their trainer/ adult to be there but heck they are kids.

As for who would hold my medical conditions form or what ever it was every horse show I have been to no matter how small or how big they have these things called PA systems they normally work well enough to be heard from one side of the show grounds to the other.
Course you could always stick something in your grooming tote or in a pocket and if they are bad enough wear a medi alert thing... But dont use this as an excuse to having to wait for your trainer to show up so you can go into the ring geesh..

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 12:34 PM
meupatdoes,
I'm sorry this is exactly where I knew this would lead....stereotyping people and now laying the blame on clients who have grooms and do nothing for themselves and rely on BNT's to breath..

Frankly if you are trying to portray the majority of horse shows as having these delays and now rude office staff and lazy amateurs I disagree.

Anyone who shows at rated shows knows one of the most important things in the tack stall is theschdeule, everything from lunging, hacking, lessons, the course schedules approximate times, bathing, braiding, etc mapped out over the each day and the entire week with times all organized...so let's not paint with a dull inaccurate brushstroke please.

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 12:41 PM
Again if shows have long delays that you feel are inexcusable or office staff are rude....then fill out the competition evaluation form...or talk to the steward to deal with an issue you would like to see dealt with at that time....


http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/CompEvalForm.pdf

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 12:42 PM
meupatdoes,
I'm sorry this is exactly where I knew this would lead....stereotyping people and now laying the blame on clients who have grooms and do nothing for themselves and rely on BNT's to breath..

Frankly if you are trying to portray the majority of horse shows as having these delays and now rude office staff and lazy amateurs I disagree.

Anyone who shows at rated shows knows one of the most important things in the tack stall is theschdeule, everything from lunging, hacking, lessons, the course schedules approximate times, bathing, braiding, etc mapped out over the each day and the entire week with times all organized...so let's not paint with a dull inaccurate brushstroke please.

That is completely unresponsive to my post.

If you are going to post on the one hand that it is a good trainer's job to make sure the show runs smoothly for his clients, and you don't like warming up at the very end but it's not your fault your trainer has a conflict (yeah, that was you), then please don't take umbrage at my description of SOME amateurs.

My question was whether we should expect clients to take responsibility for making it to their own trips on time, or whether we should expect trainers to make sure there are never trainer conflicts?

If a conflict occurs, is delay unavoidable because the customer can't be expected to go in without her trainer?
Or is my portrayal of helpless amateurs unfair because they AREN'T helpless, and they CAN be expected to go in the ring without delaying everything because they shouldn't have to wait for their trainer in the event of a conflict.

Ultimately, if you're riding around for twenty minutes schooling by an empty ring while everyone else is waiting for you (even if you "don't like" to "have" to do this), should your trainer have figured his conflict out better to make the show go more smoothly for you, or should you defy my characterization (which of course you are quick to protest), and get your heinie in the ring even if your trainer is busy helping somebody else at the time?

WHICH IS IT?

RockinHorse
May. 20, 2009, 12:52 PM
The best way I know of to get rid of ring delays is to require pre-entry only and not allow any adds or scratches. In my experience, it is this flexibility of post entering, adding and scratching, which many of us appreciate ;), that causes a lot of the issues. In the morning, a trainer may not realize that he/she will have a conflict because he/she doesn't know that a total of 20 horses just added into the divsions before his/hers and now the 2nd years probably won't go off until an hour later than anticipated. Oh but a bunch of ponies and juniors scratched so his/her large junior is going to go earlier than anticipated, etc, etc.

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 12:56 PM
That is completely unresponsive to my post.

If you are going to post on the one hand that it is a good trainer's job to make sure the show runs smoothly for his clients, and you don't like warming up at the very end but it's not your fault your trainer has a conflict (yeah, that was you), then please don't take umbrage at my description of SOME amateurs.

My question was whether we should expect clients to take responsibility for making it to their own trips on time, or whether we should expect trainers to make sure there are never trainer conflicts?

If a conflict occurs, is delay unavoidable because the customer can't be expected to go in without her trainer?
Or is my portrayal of helpless amateurs unfair because they AREN'T helpless, and they CAN be expected to go in the ring without delaying everything because they shouldn't have to wait for their trainer in the event of a conflict.

Ultimately, if you're riding around for twenty minutes schooling by an empty ring while everyone else is waiting for you (even if you "don't like" to "have" to do this), should your trainer have figured his conflict out better to make the show go more smoothly for you, or should you defy my characterization (which of course you are quick to protest), and get your heinie in the ring even if your trainer is busy helping somebody else at the time?

WHICH IS IT?

When did I post that a trainer was reponsible for making sure the entie show ran smoothly? For their barn and taking responsibility as the trainer sure.....they are the professionals paid and entrusted with a lot of course.....but I think if you read my posts I think everyone is responsible for ensuring they and everyone have a great show....

We are not going to agree...not because I don't agree with the theory of people being self sufficient but in this case it is not a constant wide spread problem, most people are on time, most people are organized themselves without anyone's help and be where they need to be when they need to be.

And speaking of unresponsive, have you or anyone complaining responded to the the suggestions to do something about these issues or have actually done something like talked to a steward....I posted the link to the show evaluation form so next time fill it out...tell USEf your experience if you do, the management will get feedback that their ingates lag, people are waiting around and are unhappy.... and you might see changes to limit or deal with inappropriate delays next time...

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 12:57 PM
And that is part of being a good trainer is being organized and knowing the class counts and communicating with the ingate and keepign things running smoothly for your clients...and subsequently doing your part to help keep the show running smoothly....who wants to hold up the ring? Seriously, you think the rider who is holding up the ring is happy they are now having to school at the end knowing people are not happy about it??

emph added

So, you depend on your trainer to keep the show running smoothly for you; you subsequently should do your part to keep the whole show running smoothly; BUT, if your trainer is busy helping somebody else (not keeping everything running smoothly for you) you "have" to school at the end even "knowing people are not happy about it."

And you certainly object to amateurs being described as dependent upon adult day care.


Also, I believe somebody in this thread DID say somewhere that she left early one day and demanded (and got) her entry fees back because the ring holds delayed her division endlessly. Since you are so insistent on this point, feel free to scan back. Or have your trainer do it.

MintHillFarm
May. 20, 2009, 01:00 PM
As a judge, I am not thrilled to wait an hour for riders to show, however I know it is part of the day's progression at times and delays happen. However, as a courtesy to the exhibitors, there should have been an announcement stating they were waiting on one rider (or whatever number was correct), that is a must. I have always been fortunate enough to have show management or the announcer on top of things and make sure there is communication over the PA system letting everyone involved in those classes know what was going on...I too generally ask the announcer or gate person, over my radio, when there is a delay of more then 10 minutes or so between riders, what the situation is.

And yes Moesha is right; fill in the evauation form and certainly speak to the Steward.

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 01:04 PM
Yes for his clients...he/she is responsible.....they are making decisions based on their expertise so they are...but they are not resoponsible for the show running smoothly.


and how about answering the question about the show evaluation form? Or talking to the steward?

bonstet
May. 20, 2009, 01:06 PM
I understand ring conflicts for jumping classes (although I can't understand hour-long waits with the ring sitting empty). I do not understand conflicts for flat classes or flat phases of equitation classes, except in short-stirrup or some other class where very young, inexperienced riders are going around in a group. Everyone should be able to flat their horse without a trainer present.

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 01:07 PM
emph added

So, you depend on your trainer to keep the show running smoothly for you; you subsequently should do your part to keep the whole show running smoothly; BUT, if your trainer is busy helping somebody else (not keeping everything running smoothly for you) you "have" to school at the end even "knowing people are not happy about it."

And you certainly object to amateurs being described as dependent upon adult day care.


Also, I believe somebody in this thread DID say somewhere that she left early one day and demanded (and got) her entry fees back because the ring holds delayed her division endlessly. Since you are so insistent on this point, feel free to scan back. Or have your trainer do it.

Wow you have issues.....seriously you are just a nasty rude person who has a chip on their shoulder and is bitter... you are trying to twist things to fit some sad frustrated rant or agenda....did you read anything I posted or just frothed at the mouth at things that you didn't like??

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 01:07 PM
Yes for his clients...he/she is responsible.....they are making decisions based on their expertise so they are...but they are not resoponsible for the show running smoothly.


and how about answering the question about the show evaluation form? Or talking to the steward?

1. So you are saying that there is no general sportsmanly obligation to be considerate of other competitors?
(Except for the part in the next bolded section immediately after the elipse where you mention the responsibility to keep the show running smoothly, of course).

2. I have answered it elsewhere in this thread.
I have stated that I am perfectly willing to address a concern with management and have done so in the past.
But since you don't read your own posts when they are quoted back to you I suppose I couldn't expect you to read mine.

2bayboys
May. 20, 2009, 01:09 PM
But meup, in the same thread that you made reference to earlier, this is what you said about ammies:

I am sure a vast majority of the ammies out there couldn't tell the show office if their horse was eligible first year green or not (Huh? *stares blankly, flutters eyelids*), but the show office is supposed to cater to them while the other 35 entries in the division are waiting.


You don't really expect these same clueless ammies to go in the ring without their trainers, do you? They might get lost on course! :lol:

By the way, for the record, though I have been known to flutter my eyelids if the occasion demanded it, I have never been caught "staring blankly". :winkgrin:

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 01:11 PM
did you read anything I posted or just frothed at the mouth at things that you didn't like??

Apparently I am the only one between the two of us who read what you posted, because not even bolding the pertinent parts seems to refresh your recollection.

This is the perfect example of ammys objecting to the characterization that they are dependent on their trainers, BUT ALSO not wanting to take responsibility for their own horse show experience.

And now you are arguing in addition that no one has any responsibility to keep the show running smoothly for all of the other competitors who are not themselves, even though you initially stated that yes they should (though you don't feel you personally should behave in accordance with that).

bumknees
May. 20, 2009, 01:14 PM
Yes for his clients...he/she is responsible.....they are making decisions based on their expertise so they are...but they are not resoponsible for the show running smoothly.


and how about answering the question about the show evaluation form? Or talking to the steward?


But if the show is held for a long time ( more than 20ish minutes) because the trainer is not available and the clients are waiting for their expertise it is time for hte trainer to cut hte apron strings and tell their clients they are big boys and girls and they can go into hte ring all by themselves and do not need them attached at hte hip. Come on schooling and teaching is one thing but holding the ring because someone cant go in with out their trainer right there is another.

Now yeah it isnt the trainers job to mae sure the show runs smoothly but it is their job to make sure they are not part of the problem and if cutting the apron strings is what it takes then they had bettr do that.


Id be sure to fill out the evaluation form nd let the show people know what trainer/rider held up the show.

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 01:16 PM
But meup, in the same thread that you made reference to earlier, this is what you said about ammies:


You don't really expect these same clueless ammies to go in the ring without their trainers, do you? They might get lost on course! :lol:

By the way, for the record, though I have been known to flutter my eyelids if the occasion demanded it, I have never been caught "staring blankly". :winkgrin:

People get mad at me for saying many ammy's are clueless, but then they also think I am being unreasonable when I suggest that ammys go in the ring without their trainer instead of making the whole horseshow wait for them.

If ammys are going to object to being called helpless and clueless, then how can they now argue that they shouldn't be expected to go in the ring with out their trainers to avoid delaying a show?

Are we going to decide that ammys are clueless and can't get a thing done without their trainers?
Or are we going to expect ammys to get in their heinies in the ring even if their trainer has a conflict?

I'm happy to be persuaded either way, but arguing both at once is contradictory.

2bayboys
May. 20, 2009, 01:22 PM
Meup, in my world, ammies can be both: 1) not clueless and/or helpless, and 2) choose not to go in the ring unless they feel they have been properly prepared by the person they are paying to do this.

My world is not so black and white as yours. As my kids say CHILLAX :cool:

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 01:29 PM
Meup, in my world, ammies can be both: 1) not clueless and/or helpless, and 2) choose not to go in the ring unless they feel they have been properly prepared by the person they are paying to do this.

My world is not so black and white as yours. As my kids say CHILLAX :cool:

Well, that just means they are CHOOSING to hold up the show by not going in the ring, even though they ARE CAPABLE of doing otherwise.

Like, "Hey y'all, I'm not helpless, so theoretically I could take the initiative to go in this ring to not make y'all wait, but ...I think I'll have everyone wait for me anyway."

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 01:31 PM
Apparently I am the only one between the two of us who read what you posted, because not even bolding the pertinent parts seems to refresh your recollection.

This is the perfect example of ammys objecting to the characterization that they are dependent on their trainers, BUT ALSO not wanting to take responsibility for their own horse show experience.

And now you are arguing in addition that no one has any responsibility to keep the show running smoothly for all of the other competitors who are not themselves, even though you initially stated that yes they should (though you don't feel you personally should behave in accordance with that).

What the Hell are you talking about? How does my taking responsibility for myself but still expecting my trainer to be "CEO" of the barn, so to speak have anything to do with me shucking responsibilty?

I never said I hold up rings, I used myself as a realtive example as opposed to some anonymous rider, which I think I explained to you several times...I did post that a trainer is responsible for the show running smoothly for their clients...forgive me if I mistook your post to say the show as if it was all on trainers shoulders collectively...but to some degree it is...their executive decisions can have impacts...but I think I made it clear several times that all people from management to riders have responsibilty for a show runnign smoothly.


and I'm sure you will have a smart answer but as someone with young horses and you are having an issue....what if your trainer said "wait until I get back from whatever before you go in...don't go in until I am back from XYZ"....one scratches ahead of you...ring is empty....they are waiting for you....I guess you will either scratch or go against your trainers request...otherwise you would be a hypocrite..things aren't always back and white...

Madeline
May. 20, 2009, 01:38 PM
The difference has nothing to do with how easy or difficult a horse is to prep, or how important a particular class is to a particular participant.

...
If it is really important to people to have a trainer help them on a particular day, it should be really important to them to make sure both they and the trainer get there in time.

If they can't get that done for whatever reason, their fault or not, they should suck it up.

Not say, "Oh well, guess everyone ELSE has to suck it up and wait for me until the stars align in my favor."



Brava.

2bayboys
May. 20, 2009, 01:38 PM
Moesha, unless we agree with meup's point of view, we are either helpless (read useless) or rude (read disrespectful). You take one, I'll take the other, I don't care which. ;)

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 01:40 PM
What the Hell are you talking about? How does my taking responsibility for myself but still expecting my trainer to be "CEO" of the barn, so to speak have anything to do with me shucking responsibilty?

I never said I hold up rings, I used myself as a realtive example as opposed to some anonymous rider, which I think I explained to you several times...I did post that a trainer is responsible for the show running smoothly for their clients...forgive me if I mistook your post to say the show as if it was all on trainers shoulders collectively...but to some degree it is...their executive decisions can have impacts...but I think I made it clear several times that all people from management to riders have responsibilty for a show runnign smoothly.


and I'm sure you will have a smart answer but as someone with young horses and you are having an issue....what if your trainer said "wait until I get back from whatever before you go in...don't go in until I am back from XYZ"....one scratches ahead of you...ring is empty....they are waiting for you....I guess you will either scratch or go against your trainers request...otherwise you would be a hypocrite..things aren't always back and white...

I know this is going to SERIOUSLY BLOW SOME PEOPLE'S MINDS, but if I felt I was capable of getting the ride done, I would go in against my trainer's request. I have gone against trainers before; I do not blindly do whatever a trainer says. People seem to think that every amateur has to follow EVERY word her trainer says...but then of course they object when anyone indicates that ammys just depend on their trainers for every last thing and would never make their own decisions about anything.
People will say both,
1.) If you aren't going to listen to your trainer's EVERY LAST WORD, why are you paying them to train you?
and 2.) Ammy's aren't being led around horseshows under the thumbs of their trainers, they aren't helpless!

However, I can't picture my trainer making this request. Maybe this is coming from the perspective that no professional has ever once sat on the young horse of mine you may be referring to in his life, for example, and that no professional has ever in the history of my showing career prepped a horse for me at a show, so I just can't imagine my trainer commanding me to wait for him to sign off on me entering the ring.

I didn't feel I could get it done, I would scratch.

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 01:42 PM
Moesha, unless we agree with meup's point of view, we are either helpless (read useless) or rude (read disrepectful). You take one, I'll take the other, I don't care which. ;)


:)

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 01:44 PM
I know this is going to SERIOUSLY BLOW SOME PEOPLE'S MINDS, but if I felt I was capable of getting the ride done, I would go in against my trainer's request. I have gone against trainers before; I do not blindly do whatever a trainer says.
However, I can't picture my trainer making this request. Maybe this is coming from the perspective that no professional has ever once sat on the young horse of mine you may be referring to, for example, so I just can't imagine my trainer commanding me to wait for him to sign off on me entering the ring.

I didn't feel I could get it done, I would scratch.

It doesn't blow anyone's mind...at least you say you are willing to put your money where your mouth is...so good on you for that.

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 02:01 PM
It doesn't blow anyone's mind...at least you say you are willing to put your money where your mouth is...so good on you for that.

I don't know, I got the impression that you were expecting me to suddenly be like, "Oh, right, now you got me, I would never go against my trainer's command."

It seems your perception is that amateurs should, or at least for the most part do, listen to their trainers unconditionally and would never go in the ring against a command like that.

Which...
...am I meant to be persuaded that amateurs AREN'T helpless or dependent on their trainers?
Or am I meant to be persuaded that the trainers run the show for their clients who just follow along and allow themselves to be chaperoned?

It seems that you are objecting to any possible characterization of amateurs as clueless/helpless, while ALSO expecting that according to the status quo ammy's just listen word for word to whatever their trainer says?

People object when I say ammys are (or at least ACT) helpless and ALSO object when I say they should go in the ring without their trainer out of consideration for the rest of the horse show if need be.

Again, I can be persuaded either way, but WHICH IS IT?

Moesha
May. 20, 2009, 02:38 PM
I don't know, I got the impression that you were expecting me to suddenly be like, "Oh, right, now you got me, I would never go against my trainer's command."

It seems your perception is that amateurs should, or at least for the most part do, listen to their trainers unconditionally and would never go in the ring against a command like that.

Which...
...am I meant to be persuaded that amateurs AREN'T helpless or dependent on their trainers?
Or am I meant to be persuaded that the trainers run the show for their clients who just follow along and allow themselves to be chaperoned?

It seems that you are objecting to any possible characterization of amateurs as clueless/helpless, while ALSO expecting that according to the status quo ammy's just listen word for word to whatever their trainer says?

People object when I say ammys are (or at least ACT) helpless and ALSO object when I say they should go in the ring without their trainer out of consideration for the rest of the horse show if need be.

Again, I can be persuaded either way, but WHICH IS IT?


Things are not Black and White and something like this really needs no definitive answer...

It isn't that any client of a trainers can't go in the ring on their own, it is that the trainer may not want them to...people are not always objective or know what mistakes they made or what happened at times, even pros can't figure out what went wrong with their rides at times....and a trainer who works with you and trains you as a coach and your horse and knows you and your horse can give you the feedback from watching you...sure this could come from anyone...but not everyone has someone else there besides their trainer..this has just been made into a mountain from a mole hill....you don't even know me and you have accused me of holding up rings and needing my trainer to read for me...so I'm honestly not sure you want an answer because it is the horse world and there is no NEVER or EVER....and frankly no one should have to presuade over this...you now very well that some people are more self sufficent than others and some need more help than others...you do function in the real world right? You do know that people are diverse and different and we live in a world of many variables....so what you attach to one person is not applicable to another...

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 03:03 PM
I am sorrry but when you spend a few thousand a week ( per horse) showing, you are not going to wing it....like Trixie said this is a competition you are there to compete and win...of course you are going to put your best foor forward or at least try to.

...

...my trainer and trainers before have always worked so hard to keep things coordinated as best as possible and it is not an easy task with horses all over the place at 8 ring circus shows..but I am certainly not going to run into the ring or finish my prep properly and put my horse in any jepoardy by not at least trying to be prepared, but I will make sure my horse if flatted and warmed up even a few small fences so we are ready to go, if I am holding up a ring...I'll do whatever I can maybe my trainer and I are late because someone else held up a ring earlier...it can all be a domino effect with multiple rings...so people should be considerate and work together for a good experience for all of us...but you never know if your trainer was the cause of a hold up that caused the hold up you are upset over....


Because people can't wait 20 minutes for someone at a Horse Show? You are honestly suggesting any horse that is late to the ingate should scratch? That is pretty unrealisitc... Sure it is easy if you do local shows where classes are $15 to tell someone to scratch and parade around with a holier than thou attitude..but when your classic is $350 for one class, I'm going to want a little more than yelling at someone "up one more and wider"...because I have an amaterur card and work 60+ hours a week...so forgive me If for some reason, since I have never really done so, hold up the ring for 15 minutes to finish my school with my trainer who was delayed....because of some hold up in another ring earlier...

These seem to me to indicate that the policy at your barn is that, while it doesn't happen often, if your trainer is late, you hold up the ring rather than go in alone.

It also indicates you think it would be reasonable, were you to find yourself in that situation, to have the whole horse show wait 15 to 20 minutes.



My point has been throughout this thread that the rest of the horse show should not have to wait for one customer's "ideal scenario." Rather than making the whole horse show wait for you to finish your prep, it is my opinion that people should go in alone, or scratch if they don't feel they are able.

People responded, in general, that this expectation was unrealistic because people HAD to wait for their trainers.

People additionally consistently said that delays were the fault of TRAINER conflicts, clearly under the impression that no ammy would/could go in the ring without their trainer present and the ammy can't do anything about her trainer's delay so everyone should be understanding and wait patiently.

The same people objected to the notion that amateurs were dependent on their trainers to get through a horseshow.

That is the inconsistency I am bringing up.


If we are going to RESOLVE the problem of delays at the ring, we need to as a sport decide whether it is simply the trainers' responsibility to run day care better, or if customers can ALSO be expected to be more proactive about moving the horseshow along and going into the ring without their trainer out of courtesy to the other competitors, if a trainer conflict has occurred.

RockinHorse
May. 20, 2009, 03:04 PM
I don't know, I got the impression that you were expecting me to suddenly be like, "Oh, right, now you got me, I would never go against my trainer's command."

It seems your perception is that amateurs should, or at least for the most part do, listen to their trainers unconditionally and would never go in the ring against a command like that.

Which...
...am I meant to be persuaded that amateurs AREN'T helpless or dependent on their trainers?
Or am I meant to be persuaded that the trainers run the show for their clients who just follow along and allow themselves to be chaperoned?

It seems that you are objecting to any possible characterization of amateurs as clueless/helpless, while ALSO expecting that according to the status quo ammy's just listen word for word to whatever their trainer says?

People object when I say ammys are (or at least ACT) helpless and ALSO object when I say they should go in the ring without their trainer out of consideration for the rest of the horse show if need be.

Again, I can be persuaded either way, but WHICH IS IT?

Listening to your trainer when they ask you not to go in the ring without them does not mean you always unconditionally and blindly follow the trainer. I generally follow my trainer's advise becasue I respect them and think they give me good advise. That is why they are my trainer. If they tell me to wait for them before going in the ring I would do it because it is probably good advise. That does not mean that if they tell me to jump off of a bridge I would do it :rolleyes:

Greg
May. 20, 2009, 03:15 PM
Meosha and 2bayboys - I think you are both class acts. You make excellent points without defamation or inflammatory remarks. I have come to the realization that arguing on this thread is useless, though. It's like the Washington post - if they don't get it, they don't get it.
Good luck at the summer horse shows!

meupatdoes
May. 20, 2009, 03:26 PM
Meosha and 2bayboys - I think you are both class acts. You make excellent points without defamation or inflammatory remarks. I have come to the realization that arguing on this thread is useless, though. It's like the Washington post - if they don't get it, they don't get it.
Good luck at the summer horse shows!

Why not share with us how YOU would propose to avoid ring delays?
What would YOU, as a competitor at a horse show, do if you saw a trainer conflict coming your way, to minimize delays for the rest of the show?

Whose responsibility SHOULD it be?
The trainers'?
The customers'?
Both?
Or everyone else's responsibility to 'understand' and 'be patient' and stop making such a big deal?

Everyone who is disagreeing with me is saying things like, "people are different, some are more confident than others, things aren't black and white, my trainer usually gives me good advice..."

but nobody will try to solve the problem.

Nobody will take a stand on whether trainers should just do a better job of not having conflicts (it's not the individual ammy's problem!), or if sometimes an ammy should put consideration for her fellow competitors above her ideal preparation scenario and either get in the ring or scratch.

People seem to be going for option (d): "it is everyone else's responsibility to 'understand' and 'be patient' and stop making such a big deal"

2bayboys
May. 20, 2009, 03:54 PM
meup, I expect that you are one of those people who sit in traffic jams and scream and shout and get red-faced and then when you do finally pass the accident on the side of the road, you see the smashed car and the person getting loaded into the ambulance and you wonder at the sheer rudeness of people who obviously don't know how to drive and got themselves into a wreck and who have now ruined your day and made you late for a meeting. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Really, it's not good for you.

Show management, gate persons, trainers, and competitors should all try their best to minimize delays by being organized and on time.

And all of those people should also realize that things do happen, plans go awry, we are at a horse show not a board meeting, and everyone's day will be more pleasant if we all just take a deep breath. :yes:

I will do my very best, I promise, not to hold up your ring. But I will not require Xanax or anger management classes if you hold up mine.

Greg
May. 20, 2009, 04:23 PM
Aaaaaaah, Meup... what can I say to appease you?

To answer your question about what I PERSONALLY do if I forsee a trainer conflict, the answer is as such: I warn the gate guy. I tell him that I have every intention of showing, but Wise Trainer has 4 horses showing in another ring, which has been given priority status by the horse show. As such, I cannot put my number in, but will need to be slipped in as convenient for the Priority ring. The gate guy in Priority ring will also be made aware of the potential conflict, and the two gate guys will converse, while Wise Trainer continues schooling or riding, after his trips are finished, he will perhaps grab a cup of water, and then bolt up to the Adult ring. I will be ready to jump the minute he gets up there, we will jump several fences, he will work his magic, and I will trot in the ring and do my trips. Sometimes there are enough people in Priority, that he can do 2 there, run and school me, and then do 2 more back at Priority. That usually means I have to get put in the order right away, and that has ruffled feathers, for which I do apologize, but it's either that, or wait later on. If that is not possible, then I may end up being the cause of an empty ring - depending of course, with how many are in MY division. If going first helps, by all means, I would be ready and willing. I have never been the cause of more than a 5 minute wait, and then maybe twice in the last 5 years.

I will NOT go in without my trainer. I invest too much time and energy and money not to give every trip my personal best, and YEP, that usually involves WT. He's that good! If you choose to go in without your trainer to avoid that 5 minute delay, that is your choice. I am not grumbling at you to do it, and of the 8 or so people thinking they may get a jog and are the ones that are the most inconvenienced - maybe 2 people will be annoyed with you if you wait for your trainer. The rest understand, and probably enjoy getting to watch your trips.

I agree that having posted orders really helps move things along. Having the number of riders set in stone at the start of the day makes it easier to predict the timing of the rings. However, most shows have multiple adds or scratches the day of, and that complicates things.

I have never showed at Spruce Meadows. It sounds lovely. Unfortunatly, it is not the boiler plate for most shows, therefore, trainers perhaps cannot depend quite so much on the schedule and number of entrants to plan accordingly.

In the mean time. I am sorry I cannot "persuade" you of my good intentions. My intentions are to be fair and patient and kind, and treat people like I want to be treated. If they have a trainer conflict, I have no problem chilling out under a tree somewhere, rather than pushing them to go into a ring feeling less than their horse show best.

Meup, I am sure that you will now splice up my commentary to show the world how clever you are, and how selfish and incompetant I am. Thats cool. I forgive you!

If that long post was too long, then hows this? I choose option D.

enjoytheride
May. 20, 2009, 04:52 PM
meup, I expect that you are one of those people who sit in traffic jams and scream and shout and get red-faced and then when you do finally pass the accident on the side of the road, you see the smashed car and the person getting loaded into the ambulance and you wonder at the sheer rudeness of people who obviously don't know how to drive and got themselves into a wreck and who have now ruined your day and made you late for a meeting. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Really, it's not good for you.

Show management, gate persons, trainers, and competitors should all try their best to minimize delays by being organized and on time.

And all of those people should also realize that things do happen, plans go awry, we are at a horse show not a board meeting, and everyone's day will be more pleasant if we all just take a deep breath. :yes:

I will do my very best, I promise, not to hold up your ring. But I will not require Xanax or anger management classes if you hold up mine.


I disagree with the carwreck analysis, car accidents do not happen on a regular basis in the same location and if they do the city will change the intersection, lower the speed limit, increase fines, or add a stop light. If the person that caused the accident was driving drunk, on their cellphone, or something that not doing could have prevented the accident, they would be ticketed.

To compare it to a horse show you would have to say that along your way to work you can across someone who had stopped in the middle of the road so they could polish their nails and check their oil.

I agree that horse shows are not board meetings but sometimes I have things to do at home, or need to be at work the next day. So I would like the horse show to run fairly close to on time so I can get those things accomplished.

I would also like to ask, what about having yoru trainer watch your trip improves your ride? My trainer can school the crap out of me in the warm up using all the techniques in the book but that doesn't always prevent me from having a chip or a missed lead.

Come Shine
May. 20, 2009, 05:37 PM
... while Wise Trainer continues schooling or riding, after his trips are finished, he will perhaps grab a cup of water, and then bolt up to the Adult ring.

Kay - I'm sorry but this really burns me up. Your trainer's FIVE minutes - to continue riding or schooling or having a drink - makes 100 other trips late?? You couldn't have a bottle of water ready for your trainer and then not make everyone else wait for you? Yeesh.

And, yes, I understand when things go awry, but I still fail to see the logic in "my five minutes" is more important than anyone else's. Courtesy, folks, plain and simple courtesy.

Greg
May. 20, 2009, 05:55 PM
Kay - I'm sorry but this really burns me up. Your trainer's FIVE minutes - to continue riding or schooling or having a drink - makes 100 other trips late?? You couldn't have a bottle of water ready for your trainer and then not make everyone else wait for you? Yeesh.

And, yes, I understand when things go awry, but I still fail to see the logic in "my five minutes" is more important than anyone else's. Courtesy, folks, plain and simple courtesy.

When I say "cup of water", I mean the dixie cups at the ingate. He literally hops off his horse, has a shot of water, and moves on to me.

5 minutes does not equate hundreds of trips.

On the last note - why should I go in the ring unprepared because someone else over-booked their day? Just because YOU are in a rush, should not force me in to the ring before I am ready. A 5 minute, or even 10 minute delay as a result of an honest conflict is quite acceptable in the eyes of judges, stewards, and the management. I am sorry if you feel imposed upon because you have somewhere else to be. Others feel otherwise.

Trixie
May. 20, 2009, 06:01 PM
Just because YOU are in a rush, should not force me in to the ring before I am ready. A 5 minute, or even 10 minute delay as a result of an honest conflict is quite acceptable in the eyes of judges, stewards, and the management. I am sorry if you feel imposed upon because you have somewhere else to be. Others feel otherwise.

Again, it's not a question of 5-10 minutes once, its what happens when multiple people seems to think that waiting 5, 10, 15 minutes for them to go into the ring is acceptable. That's when it adds hours onto a show day - the cumulative effect.

Ghazzu
May. 20, 2009, 06:05 PM
On the last note - why should I go in the ring unprepared because someone else over-booked their day?..

Your trainer, perhaps?
Maybe if they hadn't overbooked, they would be available in a timely fashion.

Come Shine
May. 20, 2009, 06:06 PM
I'm not in a RUSH. I am simply PREPARED to ride. And then it doesn't happen because someone else is late.

You being late impacts a lot of people - including those who are now late because of you. There simply isn't any way to dispute that.

If you have a division of 40 with three classes, being five minutes late does literally impact a hundred trips. And that is only in one division. There are usually several divisions. So, yes, there is a huge trickle down effect. Maybe if people thought of that, they would be more conscientious of being ready to ride as soon as the person ahead of them came out.

On a further last note, why should I have to wait because you are unprepared to ride?

Go Fish
May. 20, 2009, 06:10 PM
Wow you have issues.....seriously you are just a nasty rude person who has a chip on their shoulder and is bitter... you are trying to twist things to fit some sad frustrated rant or agenda....did you read anything I posted or just frothed at the mouth at things that you didn't like??

Yep...I think there are other issues involved here...

Tiffany01
May. 20, 2009, 06:15 PM
All the shows i've been to you have 2 minutes to get your butt in the arena, otherwise they move on. you may get bumped to the last on the list but if the last rider goes and you are still mia, you are sh*t outa luck.

was this some mom and pop schooling show or something?


same here 2 min and then your sol.

RockinHorse
May. 20, 2009, 07:28 PM
For those of you who object to even a five minute delay, how many of you also loudly complain when the starter tries to move you down in the order or go so they can squeeze in a couple trips in front of you because the riders' trainer has to get to another ring and wants to avoid causing any delays? I hear way more complaining about this at shows than I do about rings being open for conflicts.

MagicRoseFarm
May. 20, 2009, 08:24 PM
Sure it does.

A lot of the big junior riders, in my area at least, have three or four JR jumpers, two JR hunters in each group, and an EQ horse. If it's sunday, and the classic is going in the GP ring, and the JR hunters are going, and the WIHS hunter phase medal class all at the same time, forget it! This happened to my every single sunday at thermal. (my adult eq went after the WIHS medal.) There were three riders in particular that would do ALL their jumpers (plus jump offs!) then ALL the hunters (plus jogs!) THEN make their way over to do EQ! after getting water from the VIP. It was at least an hour of empty ring. But show management WILL hold the rings for them, because those three juniors had thirty horses between them!! = $$$$


Sorry, but they are more important than us. :) Put the horse back in the stall/ trailer, and go get some lunch. You're going to be here a while.

This to me says that the show management did not plan the schedule well to begin with... or maybe should have made allowance to change that schedule via early announcement etc..

If a trainer has more than an occasional slight conflict, he can afford to have an assistant...

re note on trainer dependancy: Some trainers will not ALLOW their students to go in the ring without them, no matter how consistent and successful that rider /horse combination is.. to have their students unable to make a choice or move without permission does allow some (sick) form of "job security" . To me , if it is a constant, then something is amiss with either the horse/rider combination, or the trainer's ability to create "horsemen" of appropriate level vs. ribbon chasers

2bayboys
May. 20, 2009, 08:51 PM
My son is a very competitive track athlete, and if you want to experience all-day torture (outside of horse shows) then I suggest you come on over to an invitational high school track meet. Because my son is competitive, he participates in multiple events, as do many other excellent athletes. Well, he certainly can't jump "high jump" when he is also the anchor leg on the 400 relay, which is running right now.

So the high jump waits. And they won't set the bar higher until every competitor has had his three attempts at such-and-such height. So they wait.

I'm not waiting so much because we're running back and forth between events. But parents and athletes who are only in a couple events, it's a pain. I know it's a pain. But that's the way it works. It's a sporting event. Relax and enjoy and take pictures. Talk to other parents and competitors. Go get lunch.

At a horse show, I've got my one horse and I know there are others who have multiple rides/multiple students/multiple rings. I will be flexible because they are analogous to the elite track athletes who are in multiple events and I understand the management issue.

I don't get the people who are claiming that it makes no difference whether or not you have your trainer in the schooling ring or at the gate. What horse show planet are you living on? :confused: It makes a difference.

Alterrain
May. 20, 2009, 10:57 PM
Why are they more important than anyone else who paid their entry fee's. Is it just because they are riding 10 horse each? More power to them if they can afford that both financially and mentally/physically.. But just because they can do 10 horses each doesnt mean they are any more important than anyone else who have paid their entries at that particular show.

But from show management's perspective, it DOES. If they sponsor the classes, buy 10k VIP tables, etc etc etc ad nauseum... If one of those kids/ adults needs the ring to be held for a bit, they get it.

This reminds me of a time a couple years ago when the high jr/ao went first at 8am, then there were like six classes after that. well, at like 5 when the show was about over, my friend asked me to go see if she had gotten a ribbon in the a/o's. When I asked the ingate, she said that class IS NOT OVER. there were two kids who were sharing a (private) plane that due to weather was late, but they had to cross the timers to show in the classic the next day, so show mgmt had left the cards open ALL DAY LONG for those kids who got there at 5:30!!!

I'm not saying they should be more important, I'm just saying when it comes to showing, esp on the AA circuit, money talks.

Those parents would have been real pissed if the kids could not have shown in the classic, and show management knows it.

Thames Pirate
May. 21, 2009, 12:13 AM
On the last note - why should I go in the ring unprepared because someone else over-booked their day? Just because YOU are in a rush, should not force me in to the ring before I am ready. A 5 minute, or even 10 minute delay as a result of an honest conflict is quite acceptable in the eyes of judges, stewards, and the management. I am sorry if you feel imposed upon because you have somewhere else to be. Others feel otherwise.

This is precisely why we event riders get frustrated with the h/j world. If you aren't prepared, you won't be prepared in 5-10 minutes. Either you know your job or you don't.

It has little to do with being in a rush. It has to do with being considerate of the fact that, even though I paid the same entry you did, your five minutes to "be prepared" are more important than my five minutes to get to my next thing. Yes, you paid big bucks to show. So did I--and I was prepared based on my homework. If I couldn't time my warm-up correctly, then I wasn't prepared. Either I didn't prepare my time-management well or I didn't prepare my warm-up routine well, or I otherwise messed up. If I messed up my warm-up and the ring holds, someone warming up for the next class is now on their horse ten minutes too long--which might ruin their day, and they did their homework and timed their warm-up correctly. I have now made my trip more valuable than someone else's--and that's not okay.

I understand (well, not really since I've never been fortunate enough to have a coach at an event) that you want the coach there. Ideally that would be the case. I understand that coaches are spread thin. Coaches need to make a plan with students that includes warming up and showing without help if it comes up that way.

Just an example of time management:
At a horse trials this spring Buck Davidson was riding 9 horses. At events nobody but the rider is allowed to ride/warm up the horse, and while I'm sure he had grooms helping him out with the tacking/untacking, this was a taxing day for him:
8:00--dressage 1
8:35--dressage 2
9:03--dressage 3
9:31--dressage 4
10:14--dressage 5
10:42--dressage 6
11:15--showjumping 1 (probably jumped ahead of schedule)
11:22--dressage 7
11:39--showjumping 3
12:03--showjumping 6
12:49--showjumping 2 (probably jumped ahead of schedule)
12:55--showjumping 4
1:15--showjumping 5
1:35--dressage 8
2:35--dressage 9
4:11--showjumping 7
4:37--showjumping 8

That's a long day, especially once switching between dressage and sj attire (possibly just hunt cap/helmet, but probably some changes of spurs between horses and possibly other changes). Despite these types of schedules (typical for Buck and others like him) I have never seen them hold up a class. They will typically showjump slightly off their time as the in-gate allows, but never if it inconveniences the amateur competitors who are warming up their only horse of the show. If they can do it (and yes, multiple arenas--a variety of dressage arenas and at least one jumping arena), why can't a coach on a golf cart run up and give some last minute instructions? Oh, and we pay $250 or more to compete, and we don't have another class. If we miss our times, we are eliminated.

ETA--my jumping coach is an h/j trainer. Granted, she's just starting her business, but her riders can get on and do most of their warm-up alone (all of it if needs be) while she's ringside with other riders. She tends to keep her riders moving into the ring quickly, and yes, they do well. She may not have the huge clientele that some others have, but she has numerous clients at A-shows and does fine because her clients self-manage. She's teaching them that skill.

meupatdoes
May. 21, 2009, 01:21 AM
If they can do it (and yes, multiple arenas--a variety of dressage arenas and at least one jumping arena), why can't a coach on a golf cart run up and give some last minute instructions? Oh, and we pay $250 or more to compete, and we don't have another class. If we miss our times, we are eliminated.

Greg's trainer does not have (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqZOG3s_xeI) a golf cart.

Thus Greg mused earlier in this thread that it may be a good idea for show managements to provide a "between ring shuttle service" to competitors, the better to help beleagured trainers get to the ring on time.

Yep.

Thames Pirate
May. 21, 2009, 02:53 AM
The "coach on a golf cart" is a generality and wasn't directed at a specific poster. My point was that event riders make it work with numerous rides in multiple arenas. They go into the ring independently--assistance while competing is grounds for elimination.

My other point was that one person's entry fee is no more valid than another's. The five minutes to which some people feel entitled have effects on other people who paid the same entry fee. The self-importance and the arrogance of the idea that others can just cope because Mr./Ms. Special paid good money to be there is unbelievable.

bumknees
May. 21, 2009, 06:44 AM
When did people become so dependant on their trainers at shows? I mean why will (greg for example) not go into the ring with out their coach there ? I figured that if you are skilled enough in hte sport to be shoing at any level ( with exception of maybe lead line and w/t) you should be skilled enough to go into the ring and work your own magic with your horse. and are ther not schooling rings that you can school in befor the classes begin? That is when your trainer can 'work their magic'.
This is ll very confusin to me.. Are people really that dependant on their traine to wher ethey can not fart with out their trainer being present? I wonder how we from the ice/stone age managed to show our horses without our trainers being attached to our hips... And still managed to win and do well..

meupatdoes
May. 21, 2009, 08:27 AM
The "coach on a golf cart" is a generality and wasn't directed at a specific poster. My point was that event riders make it work with numerous rides in multiple arenas. They go into the ring independently--assistance while competing is grounds for elimination.

My other point was that one person's entry fee is no more valid than another's. The five minutes to which some people feel entitled have effects on other people who paid the same entry fee. The self-importance and the arrogance of the idea that others can just cope because Mr./Ms. Special paid good money to be there is unbelievable.

You should click on the "does not have" link.

You'll see I was agreeing with you, 100%.


Somehow I don't think that Greg is one of those people for whom 'spending al day at a horse show anyway' is from before until after dark because stalls need to be mucked, manes need to be braided, non-showing horses need to be handwalked, etc. If there is a ring delay in one ring, because multiple people want to be 'just' five minutes late, I don't think Greg is going, "@@*$&* how am I going to put this one away and get the next one ready for the other ring in time now?", or, "I really have better things to do than standing here holding this horse," because if she gets delayed, she "has no problem chilling out under a tree somewhere" (while, I am guessing, someone else is standing there holding her horse).

Greg, after all, has time.

Greg does not want to be rushed into the ring because other people have foolishly "overbooked" their day. If other people want to get finished because they have such "other things to do", Greg is sorry that they feel imposed upon but notes that others feel otherwise.

Perhaps they ought to be more considerate and hire grooms so that their schedule doesn't disturb Greg's serenity by pressuring her to simply be ON TIME. Why should Greg have to "rush" anywhere because other people want to tack up their next horse for their next class??? If they are ready too early (if by 'too early' I mean, 'on time') because they alloted 45 minutes to tack and school but now Greg is late, they should just drop the reins to ground tie their horse at the in-gate and go 'chill out under a tree' while she makes sure she feels her 'horse show best.' They will probably enjoy getting to watch her trips.

Being on time is for other people.

Moesha
May. 21, 2009, 10:13 AM
meupatdoes,
You really should not make this personal, honestly, why would anyone want to share any segment of an opinion with someone who insults them and makes snide underhanded comments after taking things out of context from posts. You stated, from bold hightlights, that my sentiment was indicitive of me and my barn of holding up rings, even though if you read my posts I never once said I HAD held up the ring or I had made anyone wait, I was being directly empathetic in my response using my views of why I might wait or why I would understand if I had to wait for someone else. Frankly, I have shown by myself, I have, but that is not the point, the point is this thread has underlining issues or rants about "certain" types of people that are being masked in overdependence on trainers and other nonsense. This started out with ring delays, narrowed to riders waiting for their trainers causing hours of delays then 20 minutes then 5 minutes....seriously a 5 minute delay? to me that is BS sorry but to rant because the ring is open for a few minutes is now causing a delay??

Posted orders exist they work great...but since most hunter divisions have 2 o/f classes a day and then 2 and the hack the next.....and jumpers divisions generally have one class a day....posted order or not the class itself is not waiting, you may have to wait...for the hack or jog or the walk or classes after...but in that immediate division you do not wait...I just wanted to make sure that was understood since people had made comments about classes being held up because of the late arrival...posted orders move up, other get in and get it done.

Unfortunately I have seen some horses ruined because people "did" lots of things without their trainer and the attitude that you don't need your hand held...not you don't... but hubris is the worst enemy that many riders face....and the horses suffer.. :(


The eventing model is great for eventing and admirable...but the culture and numbers and settings have to be examined and frankly a good idea is not when implemented in the wrong situation.

We can rant and rave about what people should do and how they should behave but we can't police that...we can have rules and work together..as someone said to keep things moving along we all have to work together which might mean letting soemone go ahead of you...2 minutes to chill but then the person gets in and gets out you get in and get out and we are all happy.

I guess to me horse shows are fun, exciting, comeptitive places that I love going to, I am serious about riding and love my horses and I also love seeing my friends and people I know and enjoying myself and riding over fun courses, etc I think that is what throws me is the anger on this thread over something ( and yes in my experience ) has not been the giant problem on a regular basis as it seems people are perpetrating or they themselves have dealt with...no one is saying delays are not a pain, or can be prevented...but some understanding has to exisit and I feel like that doesn't here....I get myself to the ring, I know my schedule for the day I am on it....but if someone else isn't I am not going to load up on bad karma but instead just relish in being blessed to do this.

Madeline
May. 21, 2009, 11:12 AM
.....and jumpers divisions generally have one class a day....posted order or not the class itself is not waiting, you may have to wait...for the hack or jog or the walk or classes after...but in that immediate division you do not wait...I just wanted to make sure that was understood since people had made comments about classes being held up because of the late arrival...posted orders move up, other get in and get it done.



Are you completely ignoring all the people in the subsequent (that means the ones after your class) jumper classes who have to wait interminably for the class ahead of them to finish?

If that isn't the epitome of self-centeredness...

Against all Odds
May. 21, 2009, 11:19 AM
what I don't get is how people seem to be fine with waiting 30 min to an hour for one person, a couple minutes sure, but an hour!

At an A/AA show if you're in a division with 50 plus people there should be absolutely no reason for rider conflicts. That's a whole lot of trips to go through right there and even if you have multipe horses. there's no reason you can't be warmed up and first in the ring on one then off to the next one.

If your trainer is busy halfway across the showgrounds and you absolutely have to be in the ring now how hard is it to nicely ask another trainer to warm you up. If my coach knows she is not going to be able to make it to the ring in time she'll have one of the other trainers from the area help warm me up. I know them through horse sales or catch riding etc and they never mind helping pop me over a couple jumps before sending my in the ring, and guess what... I'm not late!

Moesha
May. 21, 2009, 11:30 AM
Are you completely ignoring all the people in the subsequent (that means the ones after your class) jumper classes who have to wait interminably for the class ahead of them to finish?

If that isn't the epitome of self-centeredness...

No because I am not holding up the ring....so I am not ignoring anyone.... do you have a better point to make?

Madeline
May. 21, 2009, 11:52 AM
No because I am not holding up the ring....so I am not ignoring anyone.... do you have a better point to make?

It doesn't matter whether you are holding up the ring, but I'm glad that you aren't...

However, as long as you are defending the right of those who do hold up the ring because either they 1.) can't be bothered to be on time, 2.) Are so brainwashed (or inept) that they don't dare go into the ring without their "trainer" or 3. Think that their time, money and performance are more important than those of all the other entrants that day, you might as well be holding up the ring yourself.

Another group which has been ignored through the thread is the spectator. Twice I've gone to a show to watch a mini prix ( scheduled for 1 or so) and watched an open ring for an hour and had to leave. Ring was still open, but I had to go to work.

Even watching endless hours of 2'6" hunters is exciting compared to an empty ring!

Thames Pirate
May. 21, 2009, 12:27 PM
.I just wanted to make sure that was understood since people had made comments about classes being held up because of the late arrival...posted orders move up, other get in and get it done.

This model works well--we DO use it in eventing (see my Buck Davidson example--he probably asked if he could showjump early, and people are happy to let him do one round (maybe two minutes from entering to leaving the arena). Being flexible is critical, which is why I can let someone go ahead or jump in and ride a few minutes early. It's the reason holding up an arena is so annoying. I can maybe deal with a few minutes if the arena got ahead or someone has another ride, but any more than that is inconsiderate.

Unfortunately I have seen some horses ruined because people "did" lots of things without their trainer and the attitude that you don't need your hand held...not you don't... but hubris is the worst enemy that many riders face....and the horses suffer.. :(

Here I disagree. If a rider isn't capable of warming up and doing a few fences he/she shouldn't be showing. I agree that never getting coaching is a bad idea for anyone (and worse for beginners), but one lesson a week or even a month, for a more advanced rider, won't ruin horses.

We can rant and rave about what people should do and how they should behave but we can't police that...we can have rules and work together..as someone said to keep things moving along we all have to work together which might mean letting soemone go ahead of you...2 minutes to chill but then the person gets in and gets out you get in and get out and we are all happy.

The question is HOW one can police that--by eliminating riders who hold things up? Obviously there may be extenuating circumstances, but you COULD police it by making a 10 minute rule or something along those lines.

I guess to me horse shows are fun, exciting, comeptitive places that I love going to, I am serious about riding and love my horses and I also love seeing my friends and people I know and enjoying myself and riding over fun courses, etc I think that is what throws me is the anger on this thread over something ( and yes in my experience ) has not been the giant problem on a regular basis as it seems people are perpetrating or they themselves have dealt with...no one is saying delays are not a pain, or can be prevented...but some understanding has to exisit and I feel like that doesn't here....I get myself to the ring, I know my schedule for the day I am on it....but if someone else isn't I am not going to load up on bad karma but instead just relish in being blessed to do this.

I'll reiterate--I don't go to many H/J shows (mostly schooling shows, which run quite well around here). I can see the anger for those who have been left hanging around in the rain by some inconsiderate person would be frustrated. I agree that it's supposed to be fun, and I, too, take my riding seriously. This is one of the reasons I get frustrated with the h/j world--the lack of independence and consideration I have seen at the two big shows I have attended (not from our barn's riders--again, my instructor values independence).

PonyHunter70
May. 21, 2009, 12:32 PM
I understand wainting 15-20 minutes for a trainer because I think that they need to be there. I also understand waiting like 3 minutes for someone to get to a flat, that always leaves time to trot around in the ring, so the judge will see you before everyone else. What I don't understand is holding a flat class for a trainer conflict(unless it is one of those teeny tiny beginner classes) because there is really not much a trainer can do during a flat class besides say the obvious. My trainer is usually busy, so I do most of my flats alone. I also don't understand waiting an hour for an o/f class. That is ridiculous. The trainer or student should realize they are going to be too busy with another horse and not enter that class. It is disrespectful to both other riders and the judge. I think the class should just move on without you.

Moesha
May. 21, 2009, 12:38 PM
It doesn't matter whether you are holding up the ring, but I'm glad that you aren't...

However, as long as you are defending the right of those who do hold up the ring because either they 1.) can't be bothered to be on time, 2.) Are so brainwashed (or inept) that they don't dare go into the ring without their "trainer" or 3. Think that their time, money and performance are more important than those of all the other entrants that day, you might as well be holding up the ring yourself.

Another group which has been ignored through the thread is the spectator. Twice I've gone to a show to watch a mini prix ( scheduled for 1 or so) and watched an open ring for an hour and had to leave. Ring was still open, but I had to go to work.

Even watching endless hours of 2'6" hunters is exciting compared to an empty ring!


I'm not defending it when it is not warranted...but certainly I am not going to ruin my own day/week or treat people badly over it...

The best solution is for people to be considerate of others....which is a two way street and to be organized but honestly I don't think anything would satisfy some of you....if it is not this it is something else....

I just hope none of you are ever faced with holding up the ring....I have learned never to say never in the horse world....sadly I don't think some of you would realize the irony or think about it if people were understanding if you did. :(

RockinHorse
May. 21, 2009, 01:19 PM
Geez, I suppose that everyone that objects to a few minutes of open rings throughout the day doesn't want any of the judges to drink water. After all, if they have to go to the bathroom too many times that might just ruin your day :rolleyes:.

Honestly, I don't know where the people show that are experiencing hours of delays and open rings. Around here most of the delays are due to riders needing to be in multiple places, not trainers. The riders do their best to keep things moving but they also hear a lot of griping if they try to go in the ring ahead of anyone else so they can get over to another ring.:rolleyes:

Come Shine
May. 21, 2009, 01:36 PM
...'s trainer does not have (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqZOG3s_xeI) a golf cart. :lol:

RockinHorse: I don't think I have EVER seen a judge hold a ring to take a potty break. I've judged a few little shows and I think, o-kay, 15 more riders at two/three minutes a trip. Should be fine. And then you wait. And wait. And wait. (Where's the emoticon for floaty eyes?)

RockinHorse
May. 21, 2009, 01:39 PM
:lol:

RockinHorse: I don't think I have EVER seen a judge hold a ring to take a potty break.

That's because, at least the ones I know, go during ring conflicts when the ring is going to be open for a few minutes.

meupatdoes
May. 21, 2009, 02:06 PM
meupatdoes,
the point is this thread has underlining issues or rants about "certain" types of people that are being masked in overdependence on trainers and other nonsense. This started out with ring delays, narrowed to riders waiting for their trainers causing hours of delays then 20 minutes then 5 minutes....seriously a 5 minute delay? to me that is BS sorry but to rant because the ring is open for a few minutes is now causing a delay??

The only "certain" types of people who are being discussed here are the ones who take being on time seriously out of consideration for others, and those who do not.

It really does not matter to me if you have nothing else to do at the horse show except take the reins from the groom and hand them back when you're done. Theoretically you should not have to groom yourself to understand that somebody else might need the time in between their trips to do other things than chill under a tree. Braiding, grooming, and tacking does not get done by the heinzelmaenchen, and if somebody pulls their horse off the truck at 10 in order to be in the ring by 10:45, but in the intervening grooming time somebody was 15 minutes late to be last to go in the previous division, then that person arrives at the in-gate "too early" and has to stand there holding her horse, because not everyone has a convenient Pedro accompanying them to hold the horse and there is not enough time to go back to the truck, and those 15 minutes could have gotten the last 1/3 of her next horse's mane braided. For example. (Maybe the people who think that 15-20 minutes is ok so that a trainer can be there for an o/f round will kindly scurry back to my trailer when they are done with their trip after their trainer finally arrived and get cracking on finishing my braid job while I'm doing my delayed trips? Thx.)

I just find it very interesting that the people who are posting about how delays are no big deal don't seem to have any else to do at horse shows other than their own personal trips. A delay to them simply rearranges their allocation of 'under the tree' time, and they don't seem to understand why other people can't just cheerily skip off to their own trees. The concept that other people might have "someplace else to be" at a horse show (like for example caring for and preparing their other horses) other than chilling under a tree does not seem to have landed -in fact that puts too much pressure on the tree chillers so the others should simply make sure they aren't "over booked" , you know, hire a groom or something.

Oddly, it seems to be the people who have way more to do at a horse show other than 1.) ride and 2.) chill under a tree are the ones who make it to the ring on time.

The people who briefly interrupt their tree chilling for three o/f trips and have the LEAST work to do are the ones who seem to think, "Eh, what's 15 minutes?"

mvp
May. 21, 2009, 02:31 PM
If you are going to hold up the ring for five minutes than make it 15 so the judge can take a perhaps needed pee break. Ever thought about that?

danceronice
May. 21, 2009, 02:52 PM
I think fifteen minutes is the outside end of reasonable, for all the reasons already cited. Admitedly a different situation as we're somewhat more flexible at a dance competition, but unless someone knows EXACTLY where the missing couple is, if you are not on the floor for your event, the MC will call your number, call it again, and then tell the judges you're a deletion. They might allow a brief delay for a costume change or something--but they are able to run a totally different event in the meantime (and it's the responsibility of the competitors to be on their toes and listening to the deck captain--it's even in the association rules that competitors should be in the venue and ready at least a half-hour ahead of their scheduled time.) Because no matter who you are or how many entries you bought and paid for--everyone else is paying a bunch of money to be there, too, and their time is also to be respected. Sure, we're all there all day anyway. That doesn't mean we want to be warmed up, ready to go, and told, "Sorry, Suzi Q. Importantperson's running late, we're going to wait an extra half-hour."

Regarding the trainer thing: I'm sorry, but if you [GENERAL YOU NOT AIMED AT ANYONE IN THIS THREAD AS TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE I'VE NEVER MET ANY OF YOU] are at the gate, tacked up, in the saddle, ready to go, "my trainer isn't here" is not a legitimate complaint. If you cannot warm your OWN horse up, if you don't know it well enough to know whether or not you should go, or what you're supposed to do....should you really be showing? Because the time for riding lessons was before you shipped in. Once you're there, you may have to get the horse settled in, but it's too late to fix any major issues. You're either ready or not.

If a trainer won't "allow" it, possibly it is time to remind them who is the paid employee here? Or tell them that then they need to be there at the scheduled time, or recognize that you may HAVE to go without them or risk holding things up.

Now, if you have two different events scheduled at the same time, that's an organizational problem, not you the rider, but why can they not just skip you in the order of go and come back to you at the end when you are there?

Greg
May. 21, 2009, 03:00 PM
Meup - Darling. You are beginning to irritate my state of zen. It is possible to make your point without being a b***h - I've seen it done.

Back to the topic at hand. Your assumption that I am a woman of means is in some ways flattering. If I am able to carry off the image of a woman with a staff, and and a life of ease and calm , then GO ME! The reality is so far off, that it would truly amuse you. Enough about me, though, for even though you feel driven to degrade this topic to mud-slinging and defemation of character through mere assumption; it is something I rarely partake in. This is not personal.

Here is a hypothetical situation. A trainer shows up to a show with 4 students. Two students are in the first division in Ring 1, one student is in the second division in Ring 2, and one student is also in the first division in Ring 3. There are 15 people in Ring 1's division, 5 people in division 1 of Ring 2, and 7 in the second division. There are 25 in Ring 3, but that ring is very small, so the trips go quick.
The complex is quite large, and the rings are quite far apart. The trainer is still fairly small time, so cannot afford an assistant, OR a golf cart. He also can't afford to turn people away if they want to go to a horse show. He is not "spread too thin", he just has the horse show deck stacked against him, and will probably be the cause of a minor delay somewhere. Because of the milage rule, there are not that many horse shows to choose from, and the very number of rings going is exactly what allows him to bring all of his students, there is something for everyone! Should we automaticaly dislike him for the delay he inadvertantly caused? Should we tell him to bring LESS students? Should we hate the BNTs that have 15-20 horses, and bring in the money to make the shows possible?

Basicaly, if the delays bother you SOOOO much, continue showing at the local or B/C rated level. One ring, one day, less delays!

BTW - everyone keeps mocking my complimentary golf cart shuttle idea, but SOME shows DO have one, and I think they are lovely. Especialy when the barn is a mile away from the ring.

I will reiterate very quickly that I for one, usually forgo daycare. I pay a training fee, but the groom does not go with it, so yes, I also take out braids, bathe, muck, trailer and prep my own horse(es). Because of this, I relish any opportunity to chill out under a tree! Just because someone can afford day care, does not make them less a horseman or competitor. Having a groom definetly enhances the show experience! When I get a catch ride with a groom included.... aaah, it's very nice!

2bayboys
May. 21, 2009, 03:14 PM
Greg, I'm still lost somewhere between Ring 1 and Ring 3 in your example, and I have no idea how trainers DO make it work, but they manage, and God love 'em.

By the way, Keswick has a golf cart shuttle between the lower ring and upper ring and it's awesome. Trainers have been known to lose 5 pounds hiking back and forth between the rings by the end of the week. :lol:

meupatdoes
May. 21, 2009, 03:16 PM
Your assumption that I am a woman of means is in some ways flattering.

This 'assumption' was based on your posting that when there is a delay you go and chill under a tree (which indicates to me that you have someone to hand your horse to, but hey, maybe he ground ties), and on the fact that you were actually criticizing people for being "over booked" and having "someplace else to be" other than standing by the ring waiting for your trainer to show up so you can do your trip, as if there is nothing to do at a show other than ride.

I guess I just can't read.

Greg
May. 21, 2009, 03:22 PM
Greg, I'm still lost somewhere between Ring 1 and Ring 3 in your example, and I have no idea how trainers DO make it work, but they manage, and God love 'em.

By the way, Keswick has a golf cart shuttle between the lower ring and upper ring and it's awesome. Trainers have been known to lose 5 pounds hiking back and forth between the rings by the end of the week. :lol:
I actually had to write the durn thing twice. It made alot more sense the first time, but then my 3 year old climbed on my lap and screeched "I WANNA PLAY SWIPER!!!!" and *poof*, it went away. I'm not entirely sure if the mathmatics are correct or not, but I guess that was my point. Noone can predict how smoothly a ring will run! Most people do their very best, but it's a crapshoot.

Loudon Benefit has a complimentary shuttle, and I love it. The losing 5lbs thing is an upside to having to schlep back and forth, but by the end of the day I'll hitchhike like a runaway to avoid traipsing back up the hill!:D

2bayboys
May. 21, 2009, 03:23 PM
But meup, I also suggested that people chill out and rest in the shade with me while waiting, but why would you assume that I do not do all my own work? I do, thank you, including getting up at 3am to braid the beastie and haul him to the show, because I am centrally located and shipping in is so much cheaper.

Perhaps Greg and I are just so much better at scheduling our time that when there is an unfortunate and unavoidable delay in the ring, we can hold our ponies under the tree with us and catch up on some of that lost sleep. :D

Greg
May. 21, 2009, 03:57 PM
This 'assumption' was based on your posting that when there is a delay you go and chill under a tree (which indicates to me that you have someone to hand your horse to, but hey, maybe he ground ties), and on the fact that you were actually criticizing people for being "over booked" and having "someplace else to be" other than standing by the ring waiting for your trainer to show up so you can do your trip, as if there is nothing to do at a show other than ride.

I guess I just can't read.

Oh, sweetie, don't be so hard on yourself! You read just fine! It's reading for COMPREHENSION that seems hard for you. But if you slow down, take a deep breath, and really concentrate on what people are writing, then I have every confidence that it will get easier! I bet your blood pressure lowers as well! :)

(sorry for that, it's payback for the violin link, which was really quite clever of you!:winkgrin:)

I am leaving town for the weekend, so I may not have the opportunity to rebutt any further discourse. It's been spirited! Have a nice weekend.

Moesha
May. 21, 2009, 03:58 PM
Greg, I'm still lost somewhere between Ring 1 and Ring 3 in your example, and I have no idea how trainers DO make it work, but they manage, and God love 'em.

By the way, Keswick has a golf cart shuttle between the lower ring and upper ring and it's awesome. Trainers have been known to lose 5 pounds hiking back and forth between the rings by the end of the week. :lol:

I Love Keswick what a great show :) Keswick Tea!

Moesha
May. 21, 2009, 04:00 PM
I actually had to write the durn thing twice. It made alot more sense the first time, but then my 3 year old climbed on my lap and screeched "I WANNA PLAY SWIPER!!!!" and *poof*, it went away. I'm not entirely sure if the mathmatics are correct or not, but I guess that was my point. Noone can predict how smoothly a ring will run! Most people do their very best, but it's a crapshoot.

Loudon Benefit has a complimentary shuttle, and I love it. The losing 5lbs thing is an upside to having to schlep back and forth, but by the end of the day I'll hitchhike like a runaway to avoid traipsing back up the hill!:D

Loudoun has a shuttle? Wow I never knew...

Greg
May. 21, 2009, 04:01 PM
Loudoun has a shuttle? Wow I never knew...

I think Jenny Graham sponsors it.

Moesha
May. 21, 2009, 04:08 PM
I'll reiterate--I don't go to many H/J shows (mostly schooling shows, which run quite well around here). I can see the anger for those who have been left hanging around in the rain by some inconsiderate person would be frustrated. I agree that it's supposed to be fun, and I, too, take my riding seriously. This is one of the reasons I get frustrated with the h/j world--the lack of independence and consideration I have seen at the two big shows I have attended (not from our barn's riders--again, my instructor values independence).

I agree with a lot of your points and I too am lucky the shows I go to about 90% out of state are all run beautifully...

the end point is to have fun and learn and be grateful for your horses and being able to do this :)

Moesha
May. 21, 2009, 04:10 PM
I think Jenny Graham sponsors it.

That is cool, what a great idea....The Finlea Skipper Gold Cart Service...I loved that pony! ;)

SED
May. 21, 2009, 09:15 PM
Moesha and Greg -- I agree that Meup has gone a little overboard. But i suggest we all tone it down, since in my view it has been as much a reaction to the "let them eat cake" attitude of some of the posts holding the contrary view than her inherent aggressiveness.

So if we can focus on the positive suggestions, I want to go back to a post (several pages ago) where someone noted that one of the real problems was the unlimited "add" ability in the H/J world. Although a think a big part of the delay problem is trainers overextending without hiring help, I will agree that the "adds" are also a problem. I see lots of barns at "A" shows intentionally pre-register very lightly, and then heavily add once they get to the show. Don't know why, but seems to occur.

How do other disciplines handle it? Does Eventing have a way of getting more participants to pre-commit and follow through?

I am all in favor of allowing adds at the schooling show, but I LIKE the idea of doing something to get more on time registrants (and thus increase the ability to keep a good schedule) for the A/AA shows.

Just curious if anyone else has seen this, and has any good ideas.

enjoytheride
May. 22, 2009, 06:17 AM
In eventing there is an opening and a closing date of a show, there are no adds. Occasionally you can enter after the close date if the show has extra spots, but eventing shows are designed to have certain start and end times and once they are full that's it. A schooling eventing show may allow you to add extra schooling rounds in as long as it runs within the alloted time for the division. If my division jumps between 10:30am and 11:30am I had better be there, trainer or no trainer. They will not hold the gate for me if my trainer is in another ring. This may mean that occasionaly you end up going in or warming up without your trainer but that is what all your other lessons or horse shows set you up for, and the entire warm up system is set up for people to school without a trainer.

xabbracadabra
May. 22, 2009, 11:13 AM
I disagree with the carwreck analysis, car accidents do not happen on a regular basis in the same location and if they do the city will change the intersection, lower the speed limit, increase fines, or add a stop light. If the person that caused the accident was driving drunk, on their cellphone, or something that not doing could have prevented the accident, they would be ticketed.



Sorry, Just have to point out that is totally incorrect. Crashes happen every single day and there is hardly ever anything done about it. Maybe after 20+ crashes in the same general area a light might go up but the crashes still happen

Ghazzu
May. 22, 2009, 02:48 PM
I will agree that the "adds" are also a problem. I see lots of barns at "A" shows intentionally pre-register very lightly, and then heavily add once they get to the show. Don't know why, but seems to occur.

How do other disciplines handle it?

At rated Arab shows, adds are typically allowed until the close of the previous session, or until some designated time.
For example, all afternoon adds must be by the end of the morning, or all morning adds must be by 6 PM the previous evening, etc.

For dressage (at the Arab shows), times are set, a wait list is established, and those on it are informed if there's a scratch.