When do you consider a horse to be a Cushingoid horse?

[appychik]

When do you call a horse a Cushingoid, pre-Cushings, etc horse? Just curious. Saw it referenced in a previous post and thought I'd ask.

Are their particular symptoms, signs, test results which lead you to think that?

Do all IR horses eventually end up with Cushings?

Why would your treat with peroglide when the ACTH and thyroid are normal? (Wondering because Gus's labs are fine, but he definitely is IR but has always had shedding out/dull coat issues).

Just wondering...

[BuddyRoo]

Since I just posted on this....

The way it was explained to me by a vet who is doing research on this topic is that while we've established "normal limits", horses may well fall into such ranges and yet for THEM it's not normal. These would include horses showing some symptoms yet still testing within relatively normal limits on the ACTH or LDDS tests.

The fact that my horse had physical symptoms but was still testing within normal limits is what eliminated us from the clinical trial stuff yet he suggested that it might be wise to begin treatment anyway.

[appychik]

Thanks BuddyRoo. Gus has always tested within normal limits (we think the skewed T4 results were due to testing with the values set properly for equines) but he doesn't look like a "normal" horse.

Does anyone else have any input? What makes you say Cushings, when all labs point otherwise?

[jcotton]

I had a mare that I called Cushing's. She had lots of hair year round for the past 4 yrs, I clipped her regularly to keep her comfortable in the Texas climate, because she was nursing a foal last year and rebred, I did not test her. She had in the past, since I owned her and had bred her numerous times, she gave everything she had to her foals so I thought nothing it her looking lean while nursing.
I never tested her but just on hair coat conditions -but due to excessive hair growth and the fact that 3 meals a day were needed to maintain her weight made me suspicious. She was euthanized at 9 months pregnant due to kidney failure from the Cushing's.
Also with the Cushing's, horses get anhydrotic, too. She did her ability to sweat enough too cool off in Texas heat.

Now she is not suffering anymore and have to go through laminetic issues or blindness and in-stability from the muscle wasting.

[appychik]

Aww, sorry to hear about your mare. It's interesting how this disease presents itself. Each horse is different. Gus was always an easy keeper, but in the last couple years has become a bit of a hard keeper. I think that's when all these issues started... he's due for a recheck on his bloodwork, so it'll be interesting to see what that says.

[merrygoround]

Some are distressingly difficult to keep weight on. But the hair coat seems to be one of the give-aways. One horse, incredibly tough footed threw us for a loop. Foundering behind, remaining normal in front, leaving us feeling terribly guilty for not spotting it at once.

This one, never overweight, finally lost so much weight and muscle mass, that on a nice sunny day, when her feet were not bothering her, we let her go over the bridge. :cry:

[BornToRide]

Are their particular symptoms, signs, test results which lead you to think that? We tend to see subtle changes in hoof and perhaps muscle health (topline loss and haybelly look) before any coat changes become visible. I know of one Arab who showed none of the typical signs, but his ACTH levels were the highest the vet had ever seen.


Do all IR horses eventually end up with Cushings?
No

Why would your treat with peroglide when the ACTH and thyroid are normal? (Wondering because Gus's labs are fine, but he definitely is IR but has always had shedding out/dull coat issues).
I would not. I would only agressively treat for IR. I do believe however that although the lab results are fine he could still be low thyroid because of the IR and that could cause him to hold on to the coat longer, because he feels colder. May be just be a theory, but it is a possibility. Feeling cold is a typical low thyroid symptom.

When and how was he tested. Did the vet pull blood to check just the ACTH levels? What have you done so far to control his diet? If the IR is not effectively enough controlled, horses can appear to become hard keepers, as the tissues become more and more resistant to the insulin's action.

[chaltagor]

Now she is not suffering anymore and have to go through laminetic issues or blindness and in-stability from the muscle wasting.

Better off bred and dead? Strange. If she was suffering why did you breed her?

[mroades]

I have one (9yr, wb)that has slight muscle wasting along his back...high cortisol levels on bloodwork, and had been acting oddly on the ground (not under saddle...wierd)

we have changed him to a PSM like diet and he starts perglide as soon as it gets here. As we look back, we realize he would decline after vaccinations. He is already improving with the diet, so we shall see.

[spaghetti legs]

I had a mare that I called Cushing's. She had lots of hair year round for the past 4 yrs, I clipped her regularly to keep her comfortable in the Texas climate, because she was nursing a foal last year and rebred, I did not test her. She had in the past, since I owned her and had bred her numerous times, she gave everything she had to her foals so I thought nothing it her looking lean while nursing.
I never tested her but just on hair coat conditions -but due to excessive hair growth and the fact that 3 meals a day were needed to maintain her weight made me suspicious. She was euthanized at 9 months pregnant due to kidney failure from the Cushing's.
Also with the Cushing's, horses get anhydrotic, too. She did her ability to sweat enough too cool off in Texas heat.

Now she is not suffering anymore and have to go through laminetic issues or blindness and in-stability from the muscle wasting.

Wow.. that's just...


wow.

[BornToRide]

I have one (9yr, wb)that has slight muscle wasting along his back...high cortisol levels on bloodwork, and had been acting oddly on the ground (not under saddle...wierd)

we have changed him to a PSM like diet and he starts perglide as soon as it gets here. As we look back, we realize he would decline after vaccinations. He is already improving with the diet, so we shall see. Interesting, thanks for sharing - be very careful with future vaccinations, if any. Best wishes!

[marta]

something i just recently learned from my small animal vet - humans, dogs and horses (and possibly other mammals who feed during the day but these were the 3 we discussed) will have an elevated cortisol level when tested in the a.m. it was explained to me as related to our systems readying for the day of eating.
wish i knew that all these years while my mare's blood results were coming back from elevated cortisol levels...

[foxrider]

I had a mare that I called Cushing's. She had lots of hair year round for the past 4 yrs, I clipped her regularly to keep her comfortable in the Texas climate, because she was nursing a foal last year and rebred, I did not test her. She had in the past, since I owned her and had bred her numerous times, she gave everything she had to her foals so I thought nothing it her looking lean while nursing.
I never tested her but just on hair coat conditions -but due to excessive hair growth and the fact that 3 meals a day were needed to maintain her weight made me suspicious. She was euthanized at 9 months pregnant due to kidney failure from the Cushing's.
Also with the Cushing's, horses get anhydrotic, too. She did her ability to sweat enough too cool off in Texas heat.

Now she is not suffering anymore and have to go through laminetic issues or blindness and in-stability from the muscle wasting.

I'm very sorry you lost your mare. I am not a vet nor an expert on insulin resistant horses, but I have to say, IMO, I personally would never breed a mare with Cushings and don't agree with you breeding yours. There are just too many problems associated with the disease for both mare and fetus for me to want to take a chance on a mare suffering through a pregnancy and perhaps dying like yours did. The fact that you didn't have her tested before breeding her, even though you had a strong idea she was at least IR, is really a sad thing for this girl.

[Dirty Little Secret]

when I start seeing signs that point to cushings.

[appychik]

We tend to see subtle changes in hoof and perhaps muscle health (topline loss and haybelly look) before any coat changes become visible. I know of one Arab who showed none of the typical signs, but his ACTH levels were the highest the vet had ever seen.

Gus has lost much of his topline, but suspect that's from lack of work more then anything else. In the last year, he's been on and off stall rest for about four months... and just walking work otherwise. Rehabbing from torn ligament in stifle.

No issues with hooves, that I'm aware of. Still nice and strong as always.

I would only agressively treat for IR. I do believe however that although the lab results are fine he could still be low thyroid because of the IR and that could cause him to hold on to the coat longer, because he feels colder. May be just be a theory, but it is a possibility. Feeling cold is a typical low thyroid symptom.

Keeping the coat longer makes sense. Plus he just went from a 12/12 situation (outside days/in nights) to 24/7 pasture board. Temps are still getting into the 30s at night, and he's minus his wardrobe. We'll see how that coat looks come June 1st (he's usually totally shedded out by then).

When and how was he tested. Did the vet pull blood to check just the ACTH levels? What have you done so far to control his diet? If the IR is not effectively enough controlled, horses can appear to become hard keepers, as the tissues become more and more resistant to the insulin's action.

He was tested according to the Yahoo Equine Cushings recommendations. He was tested in January for Cushings using the ACTH test (no stim/no dex). That came back within normal limitis (surprisingly). Tested for IR - glucose/insulin - in March. Came back with positive results, or results that indicated insulin resistance. I forget the numbers.

He will be retested next Tuesday (glucose/insulin). Diet is better controlled now then it was a month ago. BO wouldn't change his diet whatsoever, so he's at a new boarding facility. He's on 1lb of TC Lite a day, just to mix in his supps plus a good grass hay mix. Need to test the hay - just been too busy with life and not enough $$$ to test both batches of hay. Will be getting that done asap.

He does have a grazing muzzle that he's worn a couple of days, when he was first adjusting to the pasture. Doesn't wear it now though as he seems to be doing well enough (went from a total dry lot to minimal grass). I'm keeping a very close eye on things and other then his run in with the electric fence, things look good.

[BornToRide]

You could bypass the hay testing and just soak it, although then you won't be able to balance everything with supplements, etc., but I bet the BO is probably not keen on soaking either....I would replace the TC lite with just haypellets and mix the supplements in that. It still has ingredients that can be problematic for IR horses, especially the wheat middlings, the molasses and the extra iron, even if it is advertised for such horses and he gets only 1 LBS:

Wheat Middlings, Soybean Hulls, Alfalfa Meal, Distillers Dried Grains, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Ground Limestone, Cane Molasses, Salt, Flaxseed, Dried Yeast Fermentation Solubles, Brewers Dried Yeast, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Kelp Meal, Yeast Culture, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Anethole, Fenugreek Seed, Lecithin, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Iron Proteinate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract, Soybean Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Selenium Yeast, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Choline Chloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Folic Acid, L-Lysine, (Propionic Acid, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate (Preservatives)).

[MardiGrasTimeStable]

I know for us the key give away was the lack of shedding out (in late MAY), and muscle wasting in his topline and through his hindquarters, and HUGE "hay belly" look even on dry lot.
We had always known he was slightly IR - you could tell a difference in him mentally according to what he had eaten (Gelding with HUGE mood swings after eating certain things and then mood "crashes" a few hours later).

We started him on Pergolide before we even got his bloodwork back and within 2 weeks saw a difference. Funny thing was his bloodwork came back within normal, a bit high but normal. But in the first 2 weeks he started shedding and within a month was "putting himself back together". We're 2 years into it now - he gets his pergolide from Late Spring (April) until Early Fall (October) - and for the first time he looks /normal/. Now he looks like a heavy set gelding - I'd say verging on obesity now even on a paddock only situation (well with 2# soaked and drained beetpulp to let him think he gets to eat something when everyone else gets fed).

[appychik]

I thought about dropping the TC Lite, but I'm not sure where I'll find just hay pellets. Plus, like Mardi Gras mentioned in the previous post, in just a month I've noticed a huge difference in Gus's attitude. He went from a feed with 20+% NSC to one which is around 7%. He's doing better with his "mood swings" - and he's always been aggressive while eating.

Definitely will look into getting the hay pellets... just not sure if I can find them locally or not.