Flat feet question

[JellyBeanQueen]

I have a 9 year old Half Percheron half QH mare that has huge feet that are somewhat flat. I have to keep shoes on her to keep her from getting bruised up on her soles. I do have rubber inbetween her shoe and her foot for concussion absorbancy.

My question is.....Has any one had this problem that used the "Natural trim" method of hoof care? Did it work out? My Farrier thinks it would not be a good idea for my mare because she is a little flat footed. Danner, my grade gelding has hooves tough as nails and though I do keep him pasture shod during the Summer months he could probably do fine barefooted but some of the terrain we go through can be taxing on the hooves. During the winter he goes with out shoes. I have thought about the "natural trim" for him but I am a little scared that it wont work out very well and he end up hurt.

Any thoughts?

[Foxtrot's]

I predict this will be a very long thread from past experience..

[Tom Bloomer]

". . . I have a very simple and graphic demonstration for the student in class. That is, take your shoes and socks off. I’ll jump on your back with a bloody big stick, and smack you on your backside as you go trottin’ up the driveway!” - Dave Duckett, FWCF

[Chief2]

I predict this will be a very long thread from past experience..

Ya think? :lol::lol:

[BornToRide]

Why do you guys even post if you have nothing constructive to add???:confused:

To the OP....I trim a Friesien/Percheron cross who has the typical flat draft horse hooves. She's now two and has never had shoes on. Nothing bothers her and she never bruises. My own gelding has some rather flat hooves, but he does not bruise either.

Easy bruisng is usually related to thin soles. Thin soles are often caused either by

Overtrimming the sole
a diet too high in NSCs making the whole hoof weaker overall
a diet perhaps missing vital hoof minerals, such as zinc and copperA good barefoot trimmer will give your horses the right support to ensure your horses will be sound. :)

[irishcas]

". . . I have a very simple and graphic demonstration for the student in class. That is, take your shoes and socks off. I’ll jump on your back with a bloody big stick, and smack you on your backside as you go trottin’ up the driveway!” - Dave Duckett, FWCF

And that equates to a bare hoof HOW?? Good golly, you all whinge and whine about the barefooters making stoopid comparisons. :rolleyes:

OP:

This thread as Foxtrot says will quickly head south, so before it does I'll get my 2 cents in.

I have a few drafts here on my farm who are barefoot and sound on all terrain, including pulling wagons on the main roads. Their feet are very flat, but their soles are thick thick thick. I can tell this by the depth of the Collateral Grooves and the depth at the apex of the frog.

I HATE trimming them, they are total pigs about their feet. I usually do them a few times a year when I have hoofcare friends here to help (Yup bad bad farrier I am :))

Anyhoo I digress, their feet are fine. How do you know your horse bruises? Has it happened or is it because your farrier says so?

I'm of the mindset that feels you should "Go For It" and if it doesn't work, then put shoes back on.

You also need to make sure your farrier does not carve frog and sole when trimming. Most barefoot horses wear the bottom of their feet just fine and the trim just needs to be kept on a regular basis and minimal on the bottom. Of course I'm making generalizations, but I do see a lot of farriers take too much sole.

Good Luck and have fun with this thread. If you feel exceptionally brave, post pix of the feet and take all opinions with a grain of salt ;)

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[LMH]

I will add some thoughts.

Flat feet can be caused from excess flaring, toes too far forward or just overall hoof imbalance.

Hoof bruising can ALSO happen from leaving too much of something (even sole!) that should not be there.

[irishcas]

Easy bruisng is usually related to thin soles.


Ooo ya think?


Thin soles are often caused either by

Overtrimming the sole
a diet too high in NSCs making the whole hoof weaker overall
a diet perhaps missing vital hoof minerals, such as zinc and copper

Ummmm you are forgetting a few other items:

Genetics
Environment
Riding Regime
Quality of previous hoofcare
Hoofcare Paradigm

A good barefoot trimmer will give your horses the right support to ensure your horses will be sound. :)

CORRECTION
A good hoofcare provider whether a traditional farrier, a new age farrier or a trimmer can provide a good trim. Notice I did not include a body worker Ute, in the above mentioned list!

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[BornToRide]

Ummmm you are forgetting a few other items:

Genetics
Environment
Riding Regime
Quality of previous hoofcare
Hoofcare ParadigmNo, my comments were related to what the most likely causes are.


Genetics is a rare cause
You cannot change the environment, but you CAN change the health of the hoof
Quality of previous hoof care - yes, like in overtrimming the sole or lack of dietary managment if needed.
Riding does not cause thin soles - movement generally stimulates healthy hoof growth, but in weak hooves that cannot withstand increased stimulation you may find what you are eluding too
Hoofcare Paradigm - different from quality of previous hoofcare how??CORRECTION
A good hoofcare provider whether a traditional farrier, a new age farrier or a trimmer can provide a good trim.True, if they really know what a good barefoot trim really is and how that includes possible diet management and adequate movement :)

Notice I did not include a body worker Ute, in the above mentioned list!
Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member So??! Feel better now?? :lol::lol::lol:

[Equilibrium]

I don't think genetics is very rare. Sorry, but my mare got her flat feet from her father who got them from his father. At least it looked that way in pictures. Her children have a tendency to be going the same way, but we try very hard to keep them in good shape.

As for the mare, she was 3 when I got her with a very iffy record of having her feet done. At 10 I just put shoes back on her because I get sick of looking at her having a hard time on the hard ground. Her hoof quality is good and she has never had a stone bruise in my 7 years of owning her. May seem like nothing to most of you, but with the rocks in every field in Ireland and copious amounts of mud here, it's a biggie! Over time and a change of diet her feet got so much better, but she is just much more comfortable in shoes, fronts only. Flame away, but I am much happier knowing she is much happier in her shoes.

Terri

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE]


Genetics is a rare cause

Funny, I thought draft horses inherited their large shallow feet from their parents.


You cannot change the environment, but you CAN change the health of the hoof

You can get a horse out of mud, or not ride it barefoot on rocky ground.

Quality of previous hoof care - yes, like in overtrimming the sole or lack of dietary managment if needed.

As if that is the only example of bad quality hoof care in general.

Riding does not cause thin soles - movement generally stimulates healthy hoof growth, but in weak hooves that cannot withstand increased stimulation you may find what you are eluding too

It makes an enormous difference whether you are riding an endurance horse, a Three Day horse (long format), or a dressage horse who may never be out of a sand ring except on hack out days, but because of the enormous strain placed on the hind end, may be wearing bar shoes.
Hoofcare Paradigm - different from quality of previous hoofcare how??True, if they really know what a good barefoot trim really is and how that includes possible diet management and adequate movement :)[QUOTE}

:rolleyes:

[goeslikestink]

". . . I have a very simple and graphic demonstration for the student in class. That is, take your shoes and socks off. I’ll jump on your back with a bloody big stick, and smack you on your backside as you go trottin’ up the driveway!” - Dave Duckett, FWCF

haha luv it-- i think if i had this horse i would get him shod

[irishcas]

Genetics is a rare cause
You cannot change the environment, but you CAN change the health of the hoof
Quality of previous hoof care - yes, like in overtrimming the sole or lack of dietary managment if needed.
Riding does not cause thin soles - movement generally stimulates healthy hoof growth, but in weak hooves that cannot withstand increased stimulation you may find what you are eluding too
Hoofcare Paradigm - different from quality of previous hoofcare how??True, if they really know what a good barefoot trim really is and how that includes possible diet management and adequate movement :)


OP: Please do not listen to anything BTR is saying ;) She is standing in a hole sooooooo deep, you can barely see the top of her pointy little head.

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[citydog]

OP. Try Danner shod and see how he does. You can always put shoes back on if it doesn't work out.

If your mare has indeed bruised before, then yeah, maybe you should stick with shoes. If she hasn't, you might want to give her a try without. I've known a number of flat-footed Perchies who've gone barefoot (involving light work on roads and gravel) just fine.

You can always return to what you're doing now. :)

[jokersmama]

My Friesian QH cross had flat soles that were the result of flares, the flaring wall was pulling the sole out flat with it.

As LMH says "toes too far forward".

Now that I have addressed her walls rather agressively she is building concavity to her sole.

I'm still learning and very new BUT from the way I understand it (which could be totally off btw :winkgrin:) the sole can look flat when in fact it is dead or false sole that has not been exfoliated.

[merrygoround]

Sadly most of those flat looking feet are flat feet, having dealt with two big footed, flat footed, and not very fast TB's. :lol:

But both could and did jump. :yes:

[JellyBeanQueen]

And that equates to a bare hoof HOW?? Good golly, you all whinge and whine about the barefooters making stoopid comparisons. :rolleyes:

OP:

This thread as Foxtrot says will quickly head south, so before it does I'll get my 2 cents in.

I have a few drafts here on my farm who are barefoot and sound on all terrain, including pulling wagons on the main roads. Their feet are very flat, but their soles are thick thick thick. I can tell this by the depth of the Collateral Grooves and the depth at the apex of the frog.

I HATE trimming them, they are total pigs about their feet. I usually do them a few times a year when I have hoofcare friends here to help (Yup bad bad farrier I am :))

Anyhoo I digress, their feet are fine. How do you know your horse bruises? Has it happened or is it because your farrier says so?

I'm of the mindset that feels you should "Go For It" and if it doesn't work, then put shoes back on.

You also need to make sure your farrier does not carve frog and sole when trimming. Most barefoot horses wear the bottom of their feet just fine and the trim just needs to be kept on a regular basis and minimal on the bottom. Of course I'm making generalizations, but I do see a lot of farriers take too much sole.

Good Luck and have fun with this thread. If you feel exceptionally brave, post pix of the feet and take all opinions with a grain of salt ;)

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member


Thank you. Yes she has bruised and yes she does have rather thin soles but they seem to be getting better for last year She had only one incident of an Abcess. It wasnt to bad but it did put a damper on things for a while. The year before that she abcessed from bruises 4 times and talk about a pain. She was a great patient and stands well for the Farrier. When I watch my Farrier put shoes on Jelly Bean (the name of the Percheron x QH mare) I dont see him taking off to much frog or soles. At least it doesnt look like it to me. Now when my late husband bought her she was was shod with leather pads. However she ended up with thrush in both of her front feet and I opted to not having a pad put on because of the thrush problems. That is why she has rubber lining on between her shoe and foot. She hasnt had thrush since.Thank Goodness. I beleive her feet were the product of her mother's flat feet (Percheron). Genetics I think play a big role with such things.

I am pondering on waiting untill winter to try a more "natura trim" idea since there wont be much riding then (except putzing around the yard and pasture). I will have to get another Ferrier that Specializes in the "Natural Trim" because my current Farrier is not on the up and up with the idea.

Do you think winter would be a good time to try this?

[JellyBeanQueen]

Why do you guys even post if you have nothing constructive to add???:confused:

To the OP....I trim a Friesien/Percheron cross who has the typical flat draft horse hooves. She's now two and has never had shoes on. Nothing bothers her and she never bruises. My own gelding has some rather flat hooves, but he does not bruise either.

Easy bruisng is usually related to thin soles. Thin soles are often caused either by

Overtrimming the sole
a diet too high in NSCs making the whole hoof weaker overall
a diet perhaps missing vital hoof minerals, such as zinc and copperA good barefoot trimmer will give your horses the right support to ensure your horses will be sound. :)

Thank You. She is on a low NSC diet because she is a very easy keeper and I was afraid she was going to pork out to much. I dont feed them much feed in the Summer (I use Equine Essentials Mare and Maintenance by Purina Mills) because they have a rather large pasture that grass is available at all times. (I also seed the pasture once every two years) During the winter they get no feed but they do get good quality mixed grass hays and some Alfalfa (like about 10 to 15%). I think Jelly Bean could live on air. Danner has nothing to complain about either. He is kept pasture shod (shoes on front) except suring the winter months.

Last early Spring and so far this year I have been using a topical dressing Sole Pack Liquid 2 to 3 times a week on Jelly Bean. Since I have been using it there has been some good from it for there has been quite less bruising incidences and only 1 abcessing incident. My Farrier said that her feet seem to be looking better. I havent gone to a supplement YET. I was going to try and see how well she does this year or at least this summer before making a descision. Her hoof walls seem to be good, no chipping or cracking its just that she is rather thin on the bottom.

[citydog]

We've had extremely good results with Durasole (ad over there ------->)
over the years.

[LMH]

Just for info, there is no such thing as a "natural trim"-there ARE several 'gurus' that each have their own special method-and each has a different name.

But just the term 'natural trim' doesn't really mean anything.

[Petstorejunkie]

Give it a try, but don't expect your horse to be as comfy on the same terrain right after removing the shoes. it's like you walking on gravel barefoot... it hurts when you do it the first few times, but eventually you can sprint on gravel if exposed to it enough.
My TB WAS flat footed, but with patience, experienced guidance, some hoof boots, and regular balanced trims he can trot on gravel with a rider now. My horse was flat footed from assumably unbalanced previous trims and over protecting the foot (wedges)
The first 3 months were ouchy on gravel handwalked, ridden in boots in the arena
the next 3 months were fine on gravel handwalked, boots when pasture rode, or doing dressage work. once a week he was ridden lightly without boots.
next 3 months increased the US work without boots til finally we ride on all terrain with his lol *crap* tb feet and he's just fine.

My horse never abscessed, was never lame, i never missed a day of riding, and i never had late nights staying up wondering if i was harming my horse... in fact i think it's the best decision i ever made regarding his care.

If you feel confident in your farrier's abilities, then ask to speak to some of his other barefoot convert clients and see how you feel. it's a very personal decision (like religion or abortion) hence why there are many passionate responses from both sides of the spectrum.

[sketcher]

Why do you guys even post if you have nothing constructive to add???:confused:



:eek:

[BornToRide]

Just for info, there is no such thing as a "natural trim"-there ARE several 'gurus' that each have their own special method-and each has a different name.

But just the term 'natural trim' doesn't really mean anything.I disagree, I think there is - it is the trim the horse needs/requires to have a healthy bare hoof. The horse dicates what he/she needs and the trimmer should support this as best as possible.

Always listen to the horse :)

[JellyBeanQueen]

Hmmmm the more I read about "natural trimming" or what have you the more I think that it might not be the best for Jelly. However Danner might do better since he has great feet. I might use him as a guinea pig. He goes all winter with out shoes and does well with it. I think (hope) we have Jelly at a good spot right now and I am afraid to mess it up.

Thanks to every one who gave some great information. I dont know why this is considered a touchy topic.

[BornToRide]

I don't think genetics is very rare. Sorry, but my mare got her flat feet from her father who got them from his father. At least it looked that way in pictures. Her children have a tendency to be going the same way, but we try very hard to keep them in good shape.
Terri Well let's see - I trim about 100+ horses and I know of only 2 or 3 that have naturally flat hooves that I would call genetically flat. The few others (about 5) I have are transitioning from shoes or have metabolic issues (Cushings and/or IR). That to me makes the genetic component rather rare :)

[BornToRide]

My Friesian QH cross had flat soles that were the result of flares, the flaring wall was pulling the sole out flat with it.

As LMH says "toes too far forward". Forward toes (and I still believe that most forward toes are caused by a diet high in NSCs or possibly other nutritional factors or lack thereof) can be a factor, but that Friesian/Percheron cross I trim has the shortest toes too - it is amazing how short they are for her already big size :)

[Equilibrium]

Well let's see - I trim about 100+ horses and I know of only 2 or 3 that have naturally flat hooves that I would call genetically flat. The few others (about 5) I have are transitioning from shoes or have metabolic issues (Cushings and/or IR). That to me makes the genetic component rather rare :)

Well maybe come over here and start trimming TB's bred for jumping on the turf.

Terri

[BornToRide]

Well maybe come over here and start trimming TB's bred for jumping on the turf.

TerriYou mean they have worse feet over there?? I trim several TBs here that have excellent concavity, but they are also on a correct diet :)

[Equilibrium]

I know mine are on a correct diet now. For the others can't speak, but you would tend to see a different foot on a big TB bred for distance on soft turf rather than a sprinter on dirt.

Terri

[goeslikestink]

Just for info, there is no such thing as a "natural trim"-there ARE several 'gurus' that each have their own special method-and each has a different name.

But just the term 'natural trim' doesn't really mean anything.

exacty well said if the horse is getting briused soles and hurting due to flat feet then get a farrier in and shoe her

[LMH]

I disagree, I think there is - it is the trim the horse needs/requires to have a healthy bare hoof. The horse dicates what he/she needs and the trimmer should support this as best as possible.

Always listen to the horse :)


OK then BTR, I have learned about trimming from Cindy Sullivan, Pete Ramey, KC and through materials from Strasser, GeneO, Lyle Bergie and the Welz's (plus some others)....none of what they trim is the same. There is no one way that each teaches.

The emphasis, trim style, explanation of structure and function is different.

Which one is the 'natural trim?'

If what you are doing is a natural trim, then I would advise the OP to 'pass.'

[LMH]

exacty well said if the horse is getting briused soles and hurting due to flat feet then get a farrier in and shoe her

Not necessarily.

If the OP can't provide the environment, diet and hoof protection for the horse in combination with a trimmer or farrier that can provide a trim that is balanced to the internal structures, THEN shoes may need needed.

BUT the horse CAN very well improve depending on those circumstances.

It takes a competent hoof care provider (which seem to be fewer and fewer these days) and commitment from the owner in some cases of extreme hoof pathology.

AND some horse do very well with just getting a decent trim on the darn foot.

It is irresponsible to give any kind of 'absolute' advice without seeing the condition of the hooves and having additional background on the environment, diet and work commitments of the horse.

[Tom Bloomer]

And that equates to a bare hoof HOW?? Good golly, you all whinge and whine about the barefooters making stoopid comparisons. :rolleyes:
What is stoopid is pulling the shoes off a horse that needs shoes and then making up excuses about the "transition" period. If leaving the horse shoeless makes the horse uncomfortable, then it is cruel and irresponsible to do so. Far as I'm concerned any horse owner that falls for the "transition period" excuse is a sucker.

My advice to horse owners is this:

If you switch from a farrier to a BUA hoof expert, get them to sign a written agreement that stipulates that if your horse is not comfortable after being barefoot for 48 hours, the BUA hoof expert has to refund your money AND pay for the cost of having a farrier put shoes back on your horse.

[enjoytheride]

I find it interesting that while BTR says that flatfeet are a genetic rarity the horses she trims have cushings and IR %99.99 percent of the time. So either she is mistaken about these horses and self diagnosing them or she lives in a freakish area.

[Katy Watts]

I disagree, I think there is - it is the trim the horse needs/requires to have a healthy bare hoof. The horse dicates what he/she needs and the trimmer should support this as best as possible.


Then why don't you refer to it as a 'functional trim' rather than a Natural trim? The ENVIRONMENT dictates what the horse needs. We choose to keep horses in places not healthy for their feet. There are places where feral horses have hoof pathology, just as domestic horses do.
You are assuming association implies causation. The shape of the foot does not prevent pathology. The correct diet and environment prevents pathology. It just so happens that horses in arid regions have both the abrasive terrain and sparse diet that requires covering 20-30 miles a day to get enough to eat to survive AND to have a 'self trimming, naturally concave foot'. The shape of the foot is a consequence, not the preventative.

[goeslikestink]

Not necessarily.

If the OP can't provide the environment, diet and hoof protection for the horse in combination with a trimmer or farrier that can provide a trim that is balanced to the internal structures, THEN shoes may need needed.

BUT the horse CAN very well improve depending on those circumstances.

It takes a competent hoof care provider (which seem to be fewer and fewer these days) and commitment from the owner in some cases of extreme hoof pathology.

AND some horse do very well with just getting a decent trim on the darn foot.

It is irresponsible to give any kind of 'absolute' advice without seeing the condition of the hooves and having additional background on the environment, diet and work commitments of the horse.


quote op
I have a 9 year old Half Percheron half QH mare that has huge feet that are somewhat flat. I have to keep shoes on her to keep her from getting bruised up on her soles. I do have rubber inbetween her shoe and her foot for concussion absorbancy.

My question is.....Has any one had this problem that used the "Natural trim" method of hoof care? Did it work out? My Farrier thinks it would not be a good idea for my mare because she is a little flat footed. Danner, my grade gelding has hooves tough as nails and though I do keep him pasture shod during the Summer months he could probably do fine barefooted but some of the terrain we go through can be taxing on the hooves. During the winter he goes with out shoes. I have thought about the "natural trim" for him but I am a little scared that it wont work out very well and he end up hurt.

Any thoughts?
__________________

why try to change something that working for the horse

[goeslikestink]

What is stoopid is pulling the shoes off a horse that needs shoes and then making up excuses about the "transition" period. If leaving the horse shoeless makes the horse uncomfortable, then it is cruel and irresponsible to do so. Far as I'm concerned any horse owner that falls for the "transition period" excuse is a sucker.

My advice to horse owners is this:

If you switch from a farrier to a BUA hoof expert, get them to sign a written agreement that stipulates that if your horse is not comfortable after being barefoot for 48 hours, the BUA hoof expert has to refund your money AND pay for the cost of having a farrier put shoes back on your horse.


agree with you

[LMH]

Tom that is silly.

My retired show horse has his shoes pulled by a farrier before I ever learned how to trim.

He was finished being ridden and had no reason for shoes.

Even then the farrier said it would take about 2 weeks for him to be comfy over rocks.

At about 12 days he was.

With YOUR rules he would still be in shoes 6 years later.

He is bare and comfy after a 2 week adjustment period-no different than getting summer feet after a winter in snow boots.

[Tom Bloomer]

Tom that is silly.

My retired show horse has his shoes pulled by a farrier before I ever learned how to trim.

He was finished being ridden and had no reason for shoes.

Even then the farrier said it would take about 2 weeks for him to be comfy over rocks.

At about 12 days he was.

With YOUR rules he would still be in shoes 6 years later.

He is bare and comfy after a 2 week adjustment period-no different than getting summer feet after a winter in snow boots.My rules don't apply to farriers. Farrier can pull shoes and apply shoes as needed. Switch from farrier to BUA and if the horse needs shoes, you no longer have a farrier. You just made a commitment to barefoot without the option of shoes.

[grayarabpony]

Is it just me or does Tom's post not make any sense?

[BornToRide]

Then why don't you refer to it as a 'functional trim' rather than a Natural trim? . It's really semantics.

[LMH]

Is it just me or does Tom's post not make any sense?

It didn't seem very relevant to my post!:lol:

[BornToRide]

I find it interesting that while BTR says that flatfeet are a genetic rarity the horses she trims have cushings and IR %99.99 percent of the time. So either she is mistaken about these horses and self diagnosing them or she lives in a freakish area.:confused: I can't even fathom how you came to this totally inaccurate assumption............

[Equilibrium]

My rules don't apply to farriers. Farrier can pull shoes and apply shoes as needed. Switch from farrier to BUA and if the horse needs shoes, you no longer have a farrier. You just made a commitment to barefoot without the option of shoes.

Well it makes perfect sense to me. An all around competent farrier can do what you need for each horse shoes or not. A barefoot trimmer is just that - no options of shoes.

I had a bunch of horses trimmed the other day by my new farrier. Not one walked out slightly sore. But at the same time, Stella needed and had shoes put on. The whole reason we searched for a decent well respected farrier for a long time is because the last time Stella was trimmed she was butchered. A big 16.2 hand TB mare who looked like she had pony feet. That was how he chose to deal with big flat feet. This is going to sound really silly but in the 2 horrific weeks that followed for her, I vowed she would never ever ever be in pain with her feet again. So I made the decision to put shoes on her when maybe she didn't need them what with the new guy. But too many years of watching her just coping on Irish ground. To put it in prespective that mare was last done on February 5th and just got done on Tuesday. That's how freaking long it took for her feet to grow out from the butcher.

Shoes, no shoes to me it's all dependant on the individual. I don't give a hoot about new fangled trimming this and trimming that. All I want for any of my horses is to be comfortable. If a good tirm gives them that then great. But if someone is going to tell me about some stupid months of transition period they best be on their way before I throw something at them. I most certainly wouldn't walk around in horrible pain for even a month with any part of my body and I don't expect my horses to do so either.

Terri

[BornToRide]

Well it makes perfect sense to me. An all around competent farrier can do what you need for each horse shoes or not. A barefoot trimmer is just that - no options of shoes. But wait - we have boots :cool:


I had a bunch of horses trimmed the other day by my new farrier. Not one walked out slightly sore. But at the same time, Stella needed and had shoes put on. The whole reason we searched for a decent well respected farrier for a long time is because the last time Stella was trimmed she was butchered. A big 16.2 hand TB mare who looked like she had pony feet. That was how he chose to deal with big flat feet. This is going to sound really silly but in the 2 horrific weeks that followed for her, I vowed she would never ever ever be in pain with her feet again. So I made the decision to put shoes on her when maybe she didn't need them what with the new guy. But too many years of watching her just coping on Irish ground. To put it in prespective that mare was last done on February 5th and just got done on Tuesday. That's how freaking long it took for her feet to grow out from the butcher.
Boots would have helped her too :)

. But if someone is going to tell me about some stupid months of transition period they best be on their way before I throw something at them.
TerriThat's why we require boots for horses that might have soreness in their transition periods. Transition periods are REAL. The soles of your feet would have to transition too, should you decide all of a sudden to go barefoot. Some horses will need to go through the same process.

BTW, saw a show about Mount Everest the other day and was stunned to see that one of the Sherpas actually walked through the snow with bare feet.......he must have some tough human feet;)

[Katy Watts]

It's really semantics.

No it's not. Most people use the term -Natural Trim- to associate it with wild horses, the evils of domestication, counter-culture, new age,and various other marketing hype. A good functional trim can be provided by traditional hoof care people who might also shoe domestic horses, for domestic use. The Functional Trim could be the same thing as The Natural Trim, without all the hype.

[BornToRide]

No it's not. Most people use the term -Natural Trim- to associate it with wild horses, the evils of domestication, counter-culture, new age,and various other marketing hype. A good functional trim can be provided by traditional hoof care people who might also shoe domestic horses, for domestic use. The Functional Trim could be the same thing as The Natural Trim, without all the hype.It is still semantics to me, just like the discussion people get into when it comes to the word "organic".

[LMH]

No it's not. Most people use the term -Natural Trim- to associate it with wild horses, the evils of domestication, counter-culture, new age,and various other marketing hype. A good functional trim can be provided by traditional hoof care people who might also shoe domestic horses, for domestic use. The Functional Trim could be the same thing as The Natural Trim, without all the hype.


I agree. The term "natural" makes my skin crawl-but sometimes i use it not having another suitable word.

It implies some kind of elitist view that what *I* do is better than what *you* do because you are not 'natural' therefore somehow damaging.

So BTR, who teaches a 'natural trim' and which one IS natural since they do not all teach the same trim?

You have an interesting way of ignoring tough questions it seems.

[Androcles]

Still not complete. Missing hoof form.

Ooo ya think?



Ummmm you are forgetting a few other items:

Genetics
Environment
Riding Regime
Quality of previous hoofcare
Hoofcare Paradigm



CORRECTION
A good hoofcare provider whether a traditional farrier, a new age farrier or a trimmer can provide a good trim. Notice I did not include a body worker Ute, in the above mentioned list!

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[BornToRide]

I agree. The term "natural" makes my skin crawl-but sometimes i use it not having another suitable word.

It implies some kind of elitist view that what *I* do is better than what *you* do because you are not 'natural' therefore somehow damaging.It does not imply anything - it is the person that makes the assumption (s) about the term(s) used.


So BTR, who teaches a 'natural trim' and which one IS natural since they do not all teach the same trim?
If you paid attention, you would have seen in one of my earlier posts what I believe is a natural trim for a horse - please look it up yourself. And I do not "teach" trimming to anyone.

[LMH]

Read my question and try again-you did not answer it.

There are different theories or methods-each one is DIFFERENT-so which one is natural?

Simple question.

[BornToRide]

Read my question and try again-you did not answer it.

There are different theories or methods-each one is DIFFERENT-so which one is natural?

Simple question.Yes, I did :cool:

[LMH]

Yes, I did :cool:

OK which one? I don't see an answer?

Is KC? Pete? Gene? Strasser? Which one-they are all different.

Does that make the others 'not natural'?

How is trimming with a rasp and knife natural at all?

It might help if you quoted my questions and answered then I could clearly see the answer.

[Androcles]

Yes, I did :cool:

No, you didn't. :cool:

[Dazednconfused]

BornToRide - how many foals have you bred? Just curious.

[irishcas]

What is stoopid is pulling the shoes off a horse that needs shoes and then making up excuses about the "transition" period. If leaving the horse shoeless makes the horse uncomfortable, then it is cruel and irresponsible to do so. Far as I'm concerned any horse owner that falls for the "transition period" excuse is a sucker.

Well fine say that then, no where did the OP say she had a lame horse she was asking questions and you gave a knee jerk reaction.

Yes there should be no transition period of lameness, I agree. holey moley ;)

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[luvmywalkers]

My rules don't apply to farriers. Farrier can pull shoes and apply shoes as needed. Switch from farrier to BUA and if the horse needs shoes, you no longer have a farrier. You just made a commitment to barefoot without the option of shoes.

How about this then:

My horses were being trimmed by a farrier, always been barefoot, doing great.
Horses and I move to another state, need a new farrier. Horses end up lame. New farrier. Horses still lame. Farrier puts shoes on; horses no longer lame. New farrier, pulls shoes. Horses not lame. Farrier trims 3x. Horses not lame, but all end up with flares and cracks.

No new farrier, but a trimmer. 4 Trims later - not one horse lame, no flares, no cracks. Horses happy, me happy.

Sorry Tom, but in my experience, farriers have forgotten how to give a good trim - but hey! They can always slap a shoe on to mask it.

[Androcles]

And awaaaaaay, we goooo!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LMH]

Sorry Tom, but in my experience, farriers have forgotten how to give a good trim - but hey! They can always slap a shoe on to mask it.

Oh heavens....here we go.

I don't think it is fair to point the fingers at ALL farriers-man there are certainly a fair share of bad ones-but isn't that the world we live in?

One that accepts mediocrity?

I used to really believe in trimmers-preached in and lived it but I am here to tell you I see trimmer work that makes my spine shudder.

Poor work is never excusable in any profession but the last *I* looked farriers don't hold the market on bad work.

I think the only thing that IS fair is to say THIS farrier did not do good work but THIS one does-or whatever.

I can really understand the farriers getting all willy at the entire profession getting slammed.

I would much rather surround myself with hoof care PROFESSIONALS-those that understand healthy hoof form and have an extended education in how to restore healthy if possible.

That requires a team of individuals-vets, trainers, owners and farriers/trimmers-working together with mutual respect.

Egos should be checked at the door but confidence should get free entry.

[caballus]

I don't give a hoot about new fangled trimming this and trimming that.
Terri Bottom line is that there really IS NO "new fangled trimming this and trimming that." A GOOD, CORRECT TRIM is a good, correct trim for the individual hoof on the individual horse, shoes or no shoes.

If the trim isn't correct then even shoes can't hide that for long.

If the trim isn't correct then the barefoot horse and the bare hooves won't be functioning at peak performance and are just as susceptible to pathologies as a shod hoof.

The optimal goal ********** should ********** be to provide a CORRECT TRIM so the horse and hoof will be comfortable and moving as 'naturally' designed to do.

It *********shouldn't********* matter if its a barefoot trimmer or a farrier who does the trim.

Nothing new...

That being said, not all farriers and not all trimmers are created equal with equal talents and skills and gifts.

[grayarabpony]

Oh heavens....here we go.

I don't think it is fair to point the fingers at ALL farriers-man there are certainly a fair share of bad ones-but isn't that the world we live in?

One that accepts mediocrity?

I used to really believe in trimmers-preached in and lived it but I am here to tell you I see trimmer work that makes my spine shudder.

Poor work is never excusable in any profession but the last *I* looked farriers don't hold the market on bad work.

I think the only thing that IS fair is to say THIS farrier did not do good work but THIS one does-or whatever.

I can really understand the farriers getting all willy at the entire profession getting slammed.

I would much rather surround myself with hoof care PROFESSIONALS-those that understand healthy hoof form and have an extended education in how to restore healthy if possible.

That requires a team of individuals-vets, trainers, owners and farriers/trimmers-working together with mutual respect.

Egos should be checked at the door but confidence should get free entry.

LMH, she did say "in her experience". Heck, I can say the same thing about farriers in my area. Do I think farriers everywhere suck? No. But when farriers come on here vehemently defending farriers who've done crappy work, it doesn't increase my regard for them (meaning any of the farriers I've mentioned).

[LMH]

LMH, she did say "in her experience". Heck, I can say the same thing about farriers in my area. Do I think farriers everywhere suck? No. But when farriers come on here vehemently defending farriers who've done crappy work, it doesn't increase my regard for them (meaning any of the farriers I've mentioned).

True-but there are things called 'fighting words." From wikipedia (for lack of a better reference):

Fighting words are written or spoken words, generally expressed to incite hatred or violence from their target. Specific definitions, freedoms, and limitations of fighting words vary by jurisdiction. It is also used in a general sense of words which when uttered create (deliberately or not) a verbal or even physical confrontation by their mere usage. emphasis added.



After ALL the threads on THIS forum it seems to me saying 'farriers suck' or 'BUA propoganda' (to be fair) are approaching fighting words even if prefaced by 'in my experience'

Just a thought.

[grayarabpony]

What you call fighting words I would call an accurate description being taken out of context. :)

To those being too sensitive while taking things out of context I say "Suck it up. Get over it." :lol: After all, that's what I've had to do while rehabbing my horses' feet.

[LMH]

And that is a fine approach as well-then that person must be willing to suck it up when those offended fight back.

Then the train starts chugging.

Matters not to me in the end!:lol:

[JellyBeanQueen]

Not necessarily.

If the OP can't provide the environment, diet and hoof protection for the horse in combination with a trimmer or farrier that can provide a trim that is balanced to the internal structures, THEN shoes may need needed.

BUT the horse CAN very well improve depending on those circumstances.

It takes a competent hoof care provider (which seem to be fewer and fewer these days) and commitment from the owner in some cases of extreme hoof pathology.

AND some horse do very well with just getting a decent trim on the darn foot.

It is irresponsible to give any kind of 'absolute' advice without seeing the condition of the hooves and having additional background on the environment, diet and work commitments of the horse.



Whats the deal about ppl not reading the whole post. Jelly IS shod now and has always been since I have had her. THe integrity of the hoof is good no cracks, gouges, chipping and etc. The issue is her flatness and thinness of her soles. She is currently shod with a steel shoe with rubber inbetween the hoof and the shoes. So far we have not had any instances of abcess or bruise excpt for a mild pink spot the size of a nickel on the left front towards the toe. We watched the area and for lamness. So far so good. My son rode her earlier today and I rode Danner and Jelly did just fine.

This horses are well cared for mentaly and physicaly. Her stall (free access if she wants) is cleaned daily as well as Danner's. I have not had thrush issues since Jelly came to us 4 years ago. She had it when we got her. She has not had it since.

I feel like I am being targeted by ppl who are saying I dont care for my animals well. ITs not a fair asumption and judgemental.

[JellyBeanQueen]

Hmmmm the more I read about "natural trimming" or what have you the more I think that it might not be the best for Jelly. However Danner might do better since he has great feet. I might use him as a guinea pig. He goes all winter with out shoes and does well with it. I think (hope) we have Jelly at a good spot right now and I am afraid to mess it up.

Thanks to every one who gave some great information. I dont know why this is considered a touchy topic.

I was referring to the wild horse "trim" just wanting my horses to have the best I can give them.
Even my Farrier stated that he is not on the up and up when it comes to customay "natural" trimmings other than the basic hoof trimmings suited for the horse. All I wnted to know if any one had a horse with similar problems that had tried this method of trimming. I wish I hadnt now. I didnt know it would end up like this.


I am posting this again for those who did not read it.

[LMH]

chill.

I did not make that post to target you-I responded in general.

If you want people to share information-well there is mine.

With ALL due respect, i don't ever just 'believe' a horse has good hoof form because someone, anyone says so-there are too many times when someone THINKS it is good only to learn otherwise when photos are posted.

A horse can have a forward growing foot-one tell tale sign being THIN SOLES and still not have chips, cracks,etc

Before you snip at me-read my post without feeling judged. A correct environment to develop a barefoot performance horse goes beyond a clean stall for heaven's sake-a clean stall can actually work against you.

Sometimes it takes a field and no stall, sometimes it takes some down time-it all depends for heaven's sake.

ONE cause of thin soles-not THE ONLY CAUSE, not a cause that means you are a crappy owner, just ONE cause is a forward foot.

Fix that and the sole can grow to correct depth, gain a tight connection and voila-concavity-but only to the depth that a coffin bones allows.

[LMH]

OK quick and easy-I trim my horses. I have no idea if my trim is 'natural' or not for reasons I have said.

What I do know is I own a horse with thin soles-he had a forward foot.

I know I trim him

I know his feet are better balanced now.

I know I have control over his trim, diet, exercise and environment

I know he no longer has flat feet and thin soles.

There.

An answer to your question.

[grayarabpony]

And that is a fine approach as well-then that person must be willing to suck it up when those offended fight back.



More like give as good as they get. :lol:

[JellyBeanQueen]

chill.

I did not make that post to target you-I responded in general.

If you want people to share information-well there is mine.

With ALL due respect, i don't ever just 'believe' a horse has good hoof form because someone, anyone says so-there are too many times when someone THINKS it is good only to learn otherwise when photos are posted.

A horse can have a forward growing foot-one tell tale sign being THIN SOLES and still not have chips, cracks,etc

Before you snip at me-read my post without feeling judged. A correct environment to develop a barefoot performance horse goes beyond a clean stall for heaven's sake-a clean stall can actually work against you.

Sometimes it takes a field and no stall, sometimes it takes some down time-it all depends for heaven's sake.

ONE cause of thin soles-not THE ONLY CAUSE, not a cause that means you are a crappy owner, just ONE cause is a forward foot.

Fix that and the sole can grow to correct depth, gain a tight connection and voila-concavity-but only to the depth that a coffin bones allows.

If I was wrong then I appologize. It just seemed like I was being berated for "poor care" I was supposedly giving my horse. Wouldnt a horse with forward feet have hooves that look forward? Jelly's feet are round like dinner plates. She wears a 5 in a regular steel shoe.

[Dazednconfused]

Perhaps LMH should stick to legal advise.......:)

Still waiting - how many horses have you bred? :confused::)

[LMH]

No problem-things get heated and tempers flare.

Thanks for the apology-I want to emphasize I was not pointing my finger at you-simply trying to explain that more can be involved than just pulling shoes and getting success.

Hopefully that makes more sense?

I don't have an answer to your question without photos (and not suggesting that unless you have a very thick skin).

The foot could also just be flared all around-that can also cause a thin sole-it CAN be flared and still look round.

So it really is just guessing without photos.

[LMH]

Still waiting - how many horses have you bred? :confused::)

Don't bother.

She has a list of unanswered questions so long I doubt she can keep up anymore.:no:

[Dazednconfused]

Don't bother.

She has a list of unanswered questions so long I doubt she can keep up anymore.:no:

Oh, I know it's a futile exercise...

I feel bad for the people reading these threads that listen to her drivel that simply don't know any better. Personally, I like to give people the credit their opinions deserve. For some folks on this board, that's a lot of credit indeed. For others, not so much. The best way to determine that credit is by asking questions to determine where the person is coming from and their experience level. When one repeatedly asks perfectly reasonable questions and gets

a) no response
b) some unverifiable non-answer,
c) Some opposing collection of useless anecdotes (with a distinct fear of actual scientific studies, evidence, or even critical thinking)
d) Essentially: "You're just a big meanie!"

That says a whole lot about the caliber of opinion you're dealing with, I would say.

To comment on the heritability of poor feet, I would want to talk to breeders, and people with degrees in genetics. Like if I had a question on suspensories, or a cough, I would call a vet. Or if I had a headache or my wrist hurt, a doctor.

Hopefully by asking these questions and the consistent, expected answers (a) through (d) will encourage people to think critically before utilizing BTR's (and others, for that matter) advice :)

[JHUshoer20]

I will have to get another Ferrier that Specializes in the "Natural Trim" because my current Farrier is not on the up and up with the idea.
Sometimes I think people come on here just to start these amusing threads. Perhaps you can elaborate a bit on exactly what you mean by this so-called "natural" trim. I can't blame your horseshoer for not wanting to hear this BS.
George

[Moderator 1]

Please keep the thread focused on the OT. We've removed a few barbs shot back and forth.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[luvmywalkers]

Oh heavens....here we go.

I don't think it is fair to point the fingers at ALL farriers-man there are certainly a fair share of bad ones-but isn't that the world we live in?

One that accepts mediocrity?

I used to really believe in trimmers-preached in and lived it but I am here to tell you I see trimmer work that makes my spine shudder.

Poor work is never excusable in any profession but the last *I* looked farriers don't hold the market on bad work.

I think the only thing that IS fair is to say THIS farrier did not do good work but THIS one does-or whatever.

I can really understand the farriers getting all willy at the entire profession getting slammed.

I would much rather surround myself with hoof care PROFESSIONALS-those that understand healthy hoof form and have an extended education in how to restore healthy if possible.

That requires a team of individuals-vets, trainers, owners and farriers/trimmers-working together with mutual respect.

Egos should be checked at the door but confidence should get free entry.

If you read my post, you'll see that I mentioned that the first farrier did a great job.

Not quite sure why you had the need to respond this way. I refer to 5 actual experiences - and that's a no-no. You can make a global statement such as this one on page 2: "It takes a competent hoof care provider (which seem to be fewer and fewer these days)" and that's good.

Thusfar I've used 5 hoofcare providers; 2 were competent. This appears to confirm your statement. Done.

[LMH]

I have no idea why you are arguing with me.

I just know from experience on THIS forum when you refer to 'farriers' as opposed to most farriers or some farriers or many farriers or almost all farriers THEN say they 'slap' a shoe on, you are gonna p-off the farriers.

I used that phrase ONCE and started a back and forth-and i see their point.

What you said in THAT post and what I said are not the same.

So what do I say now? Oh yes....DONE.

[grayarabpony]

I can see why luvmywalkers is arguing with you: you got riled at one of her posts. I have no idea why. A person should be able to relate his or her experience with farriers without getting slapped down.

[LMH]

Oh good grief I was not riled. My tone was as calm as ever.

What i wrote is what happens. People make comments about farriers can't trim and just slap shoes on and it causes a wreck.


People can relate whatever experience they want. I could care less-just was giving a little heads up on implying all farriers can't trim was likely going to cause porblems.

I will tell you what-next time someone posts like that I will just sit back and watch the games begin. Better?

OK--so anyone else want to join in on this or should we just carry on.

[JHUshoer20]

What i wrote is what happens. People make comments about farriers can't trim and just slap shoes on and it causes a wreck.

OK--so anyone else want to join in on this or should we just carry on.
I will, no time to talk now though, gotta go slap some shoes on!:D
George

[grayarabpony]

LMH, you always defend the farriers that turn around and make fun of you. Why you do this is a mystery, but it's not my business... if it makes you happy....

I'll say it again -- luvmywalkers did say "IN HER EXPERIENCE".

Did you get that?

Did it sink in?

:lol:

I'd like the farriers that post here IF there was more actual helpful posting -- instead there is a good bit of very vindictive ridicule, especially coming from Tom Stovall. Tom Bloomer's OK although he has his moments too.

[Rick Burten]

Like if I had a question on suspensories, or a cough, I would call a vet. Or if I had a headache or my wrist hurt, a doctor.
Oh Puhleeeeze. You don't need to bother either your vet or your doctor with such silly, trivial, questions. Change your diet, trim your finger and toe nails naturally, and dance barefoot and nekid(sic) around a bonfire(it helps if you also paint yourself blue). :D

[Rick Burten]

People can relate whatever experience they want. I could care less-.
Counselor, shouldn't that be ' "couldn't" care less'? :D After all, the way you originally phrased it, it is implied that you do, to some degree, care. :eek: :)

Rick

[Tom Stovall]

grayarabpony in gray

LMH, you always defend the farriers that turn around and make fun of you. Why you do this is a mystery, but it's not my business... if it makes you happy....

Unlike some folks of the barefoot persuasion, LMH has a sense of humor and actually knows a little something about horses.

I'll say it again -- luvmywalkers did say "IN HER EXPERIENCE".

Did you get that?

Did it sink in?

:lol:

Anyone's painting all farriers (owners, trimmers, barn owners, etc.) with the same brush is indicative of prejudice based on inexperience, not experience. Of course, given the reality of your own inexperience, you can be excused for being unaware of that fact.

I'd like the farriers that post here IF there was more actual helpful posting -- instead there is a good bit of very vindictive ridicule, especially coming from Tom Stovall.

While your personal likes and dislikes are a matter of great concern to me, I don't suffer fools all that well. If you prefer form over content, your killfile is your friend.

Tom Bloomer's OK although he has his moments too.

LMAO! Tom, you've got a groupie. :)

[Rick Burten]

I'd like the farriers that post here IF there was more actual helpful posting
Apparently, reading comprehension was low on the list of subjects taught while you were in school, else you would not have made such a demonstrably incorrect statement.

When the situation warrants it, there is plenty of helpful input from us farriers.
-- instead there is a good bit of very vindictive ridicule, especially coming from Tom Stovall. Tom Bloomer's OK although he has his moments too.
Hey, what am I? Chopped liver? How come you omitted me from that august group? Note to self: work harder on your vindictive ridicule........

Oh, and for the record, I'd like many of the people who post here if they didn't exude such an aura of ignorance, TSS(terminal stable stupidity), fluff bunniness, would burn their Sweetness and Light Brigade membership cards, and stop acting like lemmings following their barefoot guru d'jour over the cliff and onto the rocky shores of slow brain death.

(How's that for vindictive ridicule? Does it get me into that august group you earlier mentioned? Or does that just put me into the group of cynical, sarcastic curmudgeons who enjoy toying with certain individuals the way a cat toys with a mouse? LOL! )

[LMH]

LOL-thanks Rick.

grayarabpony-contrary to your opinion i am not thick as a brick.

I am totally aware that she said in her experience on some post. I was simply pointing out that her words would likely create a little panting wadding on the team farrier.

Did that sink in?

I have no idea what you mean that I always defend the farriers that make fun of me-first of all I don't know ALL the farriers in the world and seriously doubt most of them give 2 hoots what i say on the internet forum.

Second I don't defend all farriers-I simply can't as there is not enough time in the day.

Third-why do you care whether I 'defend' any farriers or not? I honestly have never felt any of them need my assistance in verbal assaults, wars, attacks or any of the like.

The last I looked most on this forum are quite capable of bantering away without me.

Fourth I don't have a personal vendetta against any farrier-I actually like most of them even if I don't always see things like they do. There is some farrier work I could do without (and do) and there is trimmer work I can do without (and do).

What's the big deal? They are not second to satan for heaven's sake. Most just do a job they are hired to do. Some do that job well, some not so well. Some are nice, and some not so nice. OK almost all have a big ego. :lol:

Sounds like pretty much any industry or profession.

[LMH]

Unlike some folks of the barefoot persuasion, LMH has a sense of humor and actually knows a little something about horses.



Why Tom Stovall, now there you go making a girl blush on a Monday morning.

And I was beginning to think you didn't care.:winkgrin:

[Petstorejunkie]

Rick, i just read your signature... That's awesome :lol::lol::lol:

[irishcas]

LOL-thanks Rick.

grayarabpony-contrary to your opinion i am not thick as a brick.

I am totally aware that she said in her experience on some post. I was simply pointing out that her words would likely create a little panting wadding on the team farrier.

Did that sink in?

I have no idea what you mean that I always defend the farriers that make fun of me-first of all I don't know ALL the farriers in the world and seriously doubt most of them give 2 hoots what i say on the internet forum.

Second I don't defend all farriers-I simply can't as there is not enough time in the day.

Third-why do you care whether I 'defend' any farriers or not? I honestly have never felt any of them need my assistance in verbal assaults, wars, attacks or any of the like.

The last I looked most on this forum are quite capable of bantering away without me.

Fourth I don't have a personal vendetta against any farrier-I actually like most of them even if I don't always see things like they do. There is some farrier work I could do without (and do) and there is trimmer work I can do without (and do).

What's the big deal? They are not second to satan for heaven's sake. Most just do a job they are hired to do. Some do that job well, some not so well. Some are nice, and some not so nice. OK almost all have a big ego. :lol:

Sounds like pretty much any industry or profession.

Nice!! I can see that you have lawyer in you :D

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member and a little bit of of Irish Pitbull ;)

[Tom Bloomer]

Tom Bloomer's OK although he has his moments too.

LMAO! Tom, you've got a groupie. :)
It must be my Durasole (http://durasole.com) scented aftershave. :winkgrin:

I hope they don't start acting like lemmings following me over the cliff and onto the rocky shores of artificial hoof care. :eek:

[luvmywalkers]

...Anyone's painting all farriers (owners, trimmers, barn owners, etc.) with the same brush is indicative of prejudice based on inexperience, not experience...


Can't help but wondering if your response would have been the same had I said that "in my experience, farriers are the best thing next to sliced bread".

Regardless, I used two brushes to paint the farriers I have experienced.

[JellyBeanQueen]

I am so very sorry for posting this thread. I did not know that things would turn out this way.

I bearily have a computer, no scanner (gave it to my sister) and my digital camera is dead, gone, deceased. (I dropped it, like a ninny)

I dont think I will post here in this thread any more. ITs lost its essence. It was a legit question and I got very little from it. To those who posted some good information I greatly appreciate it.
For now I am going to leave Jelly as she is (shod) and Danner as he is (pasture shod).

[grayarabpony]

grayarabpony-contrary to your opinion i am not thick as a brick.

Really?


I am totally aware that she said in her experience on some post. I was simply pointing out that her words would likely create a little panting wadding on the team farrier.

Right... and that was completely necessary :lol:

Congratulations, you have a good grasp of the obvious. :winkgrin:

[grayarabpony]

Can't help but wondering if your response would have been the same had I said that "in my experience, farriers are the best thing next to sliced bread".

Regardless, I used two brushes to paint the farriers I have experienced.


:lol::lol:

Believe me, if and when my horse needs shoes, I or my husband will do it ourselves. Bet we'll do a good job too. ;)

[Androcles]

[U]I dont think I will post here in this thread any more. ITs lost its essence. It was a legit question and I got very little from it. To those who posted some good information I greatly appreciate it.
For now I am going to leave Jelly as she is (shod) and Danner as he is (pasture shod).

So what exactly is pasture shod?

[LMH]

Really?





Yup. Pretty darn sure I am not thick as a brick or destined for the short bus.

You might just be surprised. Then again I am just a simple blonde.

[grayarabpony]

Go ahead, impress me! :)

[LMH]

Go ahead, impress me! :)

Well I didn't have to use the dictionary once when reading Tom Stovall's last 3 posts.

I expect Rick could trip me up here very soon.

[grayarabpony]

I'm ahead of you there. I have both of them on ignore. TS has been on ignore a looong time. Unfortunately everybody keeps quoting him, since he insults people and then they argue with him.

Honestly, TS' and Rick's posts are comical as far as word use goes. And not in a way they intend either, I bet. ;) If it weren't for the nasty tone, I would read their posts for fun.

[Tom Stovall]

luvmywalkers in gray

Can't help but wondering if your response would have been the same had I said that "in my experience, farriers are the best thing next to sliced bread".

You'd get the same response out of me because I know better - but the other barefooters in your coven might've raised a great howling and keening and drummed you out of the corps. :)

Regardless, I used two brushes to paint the farriers I have experienced.

You wrote, "Sorry Tom, but in my experience, farriers have forgotten how to give a good trim - but hey! They can always slap a shoe on to mask it. You didn't bother to mention that your "experience" consisted of only the few farriers you'd used to trim your horses; instead, in typical BUA fashion, you took the opportunity to take a cheap, all-inclusive, shot at farriers, then demonstrated the depth of your knowledge of farriery by parroting the BUA's nonsensical mantra about "slapping a shoe on" to mask a poor trim.

Typical.

[Tom Stovall]

grayarabpony in gray

I'm ahead of you there. I have both of them on ignore. TS has been on ignore a looong time.

With apologies to D'Arcy, "To be in such good company, would make a deacon proud..."

Unfortunately everybody keeps quoting him, since he insults people and then they argue with him.

As you effectively illustrate, I don't suffer fools all that well.

Honestly, TS' and Rick's posts are comical as far as word use goes. And not in a way they intend either, I bet. ;)

You'd lose. Both Mr. Burten and myself have a fair command of the English language and you can be reasonably certain of our intent on the basis of our written words.

If it weren't for the nasty tone, I would read their posts for fun.

Since you appear to value form over substance, one can only wonder how you've been able to evaluate the content of our posts while we've been safely tucked away in your killfile. You can't blame it on others' quoting our stuff, because a person of your intelligence who is afflicted with your prejudices would've instantly recognized our stuff and immediately stopped reading in order to save wear and tear on your delicate sensibilities.

Have you been peeking? :)

[JSwan]

And another hoof care thread goes down the toilet... glug glug glug....

[luvmywalkers]

luvmywalkers in gray

Can't help but wondering if your response would have been the same had I said that "in my experience, farriers are the best thing next to sliced bread".

You'd get the same response out of me because I know better - but the other barefooters in your coven might've raised a great howling and keening and drummed you out of the corps. :)

Regardless, I used two brushes to paint the farriers I have experienced.

You wrote, "Sorry Tom, but in my experience, farriers have forgotten how to give a good trim - but hey! They can always slap a shoe on to mask it. You didn't bother to mention that your "experience" consisted of only the few farriers you'd used to trim your horses; instead, in typical BUA fashion, you took the opportunity to take a cheap, all-inclusive, shot at farriers, then demonstrated the depth of your knowledge of farriery by parroting the BUA's nonsensical mantra about "slapping a shoe on" to mask a poor trim.

Typical.

Hate to disappoint you, but I am not a member of the BUA or any other 'corps'.

The remark about slapping on a shoe may seem nonsensical mantra to you, but not to a horse owner who has had this happen.

Last: Since you are so well educated in the English language, would you care to explain what the phrase "in my experience" means?

[Tom Stovall]

luvmywalkers in gray

Hate to disappoint you, but I am not a member of the BUA or any other 'corps'.

You certainly had me fooled.

The remark about slapping on a shoe may seem nonsensical mantra to you, but not to a horse owner who has had this happen.

Evidently, you feel that if it happened to you,then it must've happened to everyone. See any fault with your logic?

Last: Since you are so well educated in the English language,

That's your construction, not mine - but if you require assistance, I'll try to help.

would you care to explain what the phrase "in my experience" means?

Certainly. As used by yourself, the phrase means that your attempts to denigrate farriers are based on your extremely limited personal experience and/or inability to quantify correct trimming. Apparently, you've decided that if a few farriers did not meet your criteria for trimming, then all farriers are incapable of trimming - based on your experience.

With similar logic, you could argue that if you caught your significant other cheating, then all men are philanderers - based on your experience.

The salient point is that you can't damn everybody - farriers, owners, trainers, barefooters, etc. - on the basis of the actions of a few. :)

[Tom Bloomer]

Second I don't defend all farriers-I simply can't as there is not enough time in the day. . . . 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name. ;)

[LMH]

. . . 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name. ;)

What are you some kind of PSRUA?

(Pro Se Representation Uber Alles)


:lol:

[Androcles]

Since the OP has checked out due to the uselessness of this thread to her does any one know what pasture shod is?

[luvmywalkers]

luvmywalkers in gray

Hate to disappoint you, but I am not a member of the BUA or any other 'corps'.

You certainly had me fooled.

The remark about slapping on a shoe may seem nonsensical mantra to you, but not to a horse owner who has had this happen.

Evidently, you feel that if it happened to you,then it must've happened to everyone. See any fault with your logic?

Last: Since you are so well educated in the English language,

That's your construction, not mine - but if you require assistance, I'll try to help.

would you care to explain what the phrase "in my experience" means?

Certainly. As used by yourself, the phrase means that your attempts to denigrate farriers are based on your extremely limited personal experience and/or inability to quantify correct trimming. Apparently, you've decided that if a few farriers did not meet your criteria for trimming, then all farriers are incapable of trimming - based on your experience.

With similar logic, you could argue that if you caught your significant other cheating, then all men are philanderers - based on your experience.

The salient point is that you can't damn everybody - farriers, owners, trainers, barefooters, etc. - on the basis of the actions of a few. :)

I had you fooled? Perhaps my understanding is incorrect when farriers - in general - make a statement such as "if a horse doesn't need shoes, great". My horses have no need for shoes, and you are more than welcome to verify that fact in person. And this is not an empty invitation - you don't live that far from me.

The phrase "in my experience" means from what I have seen, experienced, etc.. My initial post clearly stated what that experience was comprised of: 4 farriers. 1 good - 3 not good. Laws of probability indicate that I have a 25% chance of getting a good farrier.

As for your salient point: Am I not a BUAtista, in your experience? Did you not allow this assumption influence your answers?

[cloudyandcallie]

. . . 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name. ;)

Actually, in my personal experience as a (now retired) trial lawyer in a major city for over 20 years, and then in the backwoods for over 8 yrs, it's that 70% of all lawyers are not very honest, and 70% of all lawyers are not very smart and there is some overlapping there.

My experiences with farriers have been better, probably because we used to have only one (great guy, altho an alcoholic and grumpy and I and my horses were always scared of his temper) who was a fantastic farrier, and now I have had 2 very good farriers in over 8 yrs, one of whom has cut back on his practice since he trained under farrier #1 many many years ago. I know there are a lot of so-called farriers and trimmers around, as I am sometimes stopped in stores by them as they solicit business, but anyone, anyone who can say that he has "cured" founder or navicular or anything else by one trimming, and without xrays, is not going to touch any horse of mine.

Once again though, whether someone is a farrier (who also trims, my farriers try to take horses off of shoes) or a trimmer, when the problem is serious, a vet and some xrays and even a consulting farrier to put on shoes if necessary should be called in, without loss of pride. I have friends who say they horses do well barefoot, then they put on boots to ride them, and their horses are often sore after trimming.
Whatever works for the horse is what everyone should be doing.

[Tom Stovall]

luvmywalkers in gray

I had you fooled?

Yes'm.

Perhaps my understanding is incorrect when farriers - in general - make a statement such as "if a horse doesn't need shoes, great". My horses have no need for shoes, and you are more than welcome to verify that fact in person. And this is not an empty invitation - you don't live that far from me.

My horses are barefooted for the same reason. More to the point, I've seen some horrific shoeing and trimming over the years, but I've never felt compelled to damn all farriers on the basis of my experience with the ineptitude of a few.

The phrase "in my experience" means from what I have seen, experienced, etc.. My initial post clearly stated what that experience was comprised of: 4 farriers. 1 good - 3 not good. Laws of probability indicate that I have a 25% chance of getting a good farrier.

Do your really believe your experience based on population of four farriers - in which one is good and three suck - has anything to do with the statistical probability of good/bad in the next farrier you encounter out of a population of roughly 50,000 in the US?

As for your salient point: Am I not a BUAtista, in your experience? Did you not allow this assumption influence your answers?

Do you remember the old bromide about avian identification that begins, "If it waddles like a duck..."? :)

[Rick Burten]

Well I didn't have to use the dictionary once when reading Tom Stovall's last 3 posts.

I expect Rick could trip me up here very soon.
Only if you say something like "irregardless"......:)

[Rick Burten]

Can't help but wondering if your response would have been the same had I said that "in my experience, farriers are the best thing next to sliced bread".
I would have congratulated you on your astute assessment.
Regardless, I used two brushes to paint the farriers I have experienced.
Technicolor or different shades of black?

By 'experienced' you are not speaking in a biblical sense are you? Inquiring minds just want to know. LOL!

[Rick Burten]

Believe me, if and when my horse needs shoes, I or my husband will do it ourselves. Bet we'll do a good job too. ;)
Should that eventuality ever come to pass, do remember to take lots of photographs each step along the way so we may all share in the wondrousness of your work.

[Rick Burten]

Since the OP has checked out due to the uselessness of this thread to her does any one know what pasture shod is?
I have been wondering the same thing myself........

[Toadie's mom]

I clicked on this topic from the main discussion forums page. Can anyone direct me to a page here that has some actual information about the original topic?

[JSwan]

I clicked on this topic from the main discussion forums page. Can anyone direct me to a page here that has some actual information about the original topic?


Error 404 - File Not Found


Doesn't exist on this forum. Never has, never will. All threads regarding hoof care look like this after the first few posts.

[rainechyldes]

I have a 9 year old Half Percheron half QH mare that has huge feet that are somewhat flat. I have to keep shoes on her to keep her from getting bruised up on her soles. I do have rubber inbetween her shoe and her foot for concussion absorbancy.

My question is.....Has any one had this problem that used the "Natural trim" method of hoof care? Did it work out? My Farrier thinks it would not be a good idea for my mare because she is a little flat footed. Danner, my grade gelding has hooves tough as nails and though I do keep him pasture shod during the Summer months he could probably do fine barefooted but some of the terrain we go through can be taxing on the hooves. During the winter he goes with out shoes. I have thought about the "natural trim" for him but I am a little scared that it wont work out very well and he end up hurt.

Any thoughts?

Well here's what I think. Im no expert, and I didn't bother to read all the experts ranting at each other on the last 6 pages.

Your farrier knows the horse best, I am assuming.
I would seriously consider his thoughts more so then anyone's here.

I don't go for the natural horse trim - there is nothing 'natural' in any shape way or form of taking nippers and a rasp to a hoof. And your horse certainly isn't feral either.

(And yes I have competitve barefoot horses - but when someone starts spouting 'natural' I tend to run the other way.

Is barefoot an option for her. Perhaps. But I'd go with managing the horse the way the actual expert who sees her feet thinks best. Thats what you pay him for, his expertise.

[caballus]

Ummmmm, what is "pasture shod"???

[LMH]

Ummmmm, what is "pasture shod"???

Maybe it is ok to call it slapping shoes on for pasture shod?:lol:

[caballus]

Maybe it is ok to call it slapping shoes on for pasture shod?:lol:
Ooooooo, you're a naughty girl!!! ;)

[Moderator 1]

Please refocus on the orginal topic vs. riffing on semantics, grammar, each other, etc.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[JHUshoer20]

I know there are a lot of so-called farriers and trimmers around, as I am sometimes stopped in stores by them as they solicit business,
Any shoer worth his salt doesn't solicit. These are the last people you should give any consideration to.
George

[Peter026]

Since the OP has checked out due to the uselessness of this thread to her does any one know what pasture shod is?

Grass tips maybe?

[Rick Burten]

Grass tips maybe?
Nah. Peter I think it is a derogatory term implying shoddy work of inferior quality. Sort of like when some refer to "Pasture trim".

[JellyBeanQueen]

Pasture shod is when a horse is shoed on the front but not the back. Danner tends to wear his front feet out faster than his back feet on some of the trails we frequent. We chose to pasture shoe because of the situation at hand. Danner does not get ridden alot during the winter except for a few jaunts around our property and there fore is not shod during the winter months. But when Spring and Summer comes around and regular riding begins I again have him pasture shod. As I hope you all know that a horse carries 65 to 70% of thier entire weight on the front feet. With Danner he tends to wear his fronts out a little more than what we (the Farrier and I) are comfortable. He actualy was the one who suggested this. ITs worked quite well with no other arising problems. This has been done for him for several years. Jelly Bean, however, needs shod on all fours but we did pull the hind shoes during the winter months (first time done was last year) but we keep her front shoes on due to her feet being flat.

[Thomas_1]

Never heard it called that before!

[decorum]

New one to me too. I call it shod in front, fronts only, yada yada. :)

Ann Szolas

[BornToRide]

New one to me too. I call it shod in front, fronts only, yada yada. :)

Ann Szolas LOL - Ditto :D

[Thomas_1]

It is still semantics to me, just like the discussion people get into when it comes to the word "organic". Organic is one of those words much misused. A bit like the word "professional". For some it just means "full of sh**" Some think that it means anyone who makes money doing something.

For others it means those with a considerable and higher level of accredited training and knowledge tested by examination and with an ongoing competence that is judged and regulated by a professional body and peer group.

If you're using the word "organic" (or professional) properly then there's no ambiguity or subjectivity about it at all.

In terms of farming to claim "organic" status you have to meet very specific criteria that is regulated and monitored by the body you register with.

[LMH]

I think MUCH of the difference (in the horse community) of the world 'professional' comes from how one is defined as a pro for show purposes...it simply IS one that accepts money-no qualifications whatsoever are needed.

Teach up-downers once a week for $8/hr? Professional.

Organic can now be tossed in the same worthless word basket as natural.:lol:

[BornToRide]

Terminology disputes like this are usually is only an issue for people who are not really interested or believe in the difference those terms are trying to describe.

[Thomas_1]

Terminology disputes like this are usually is only an issue for people who are not really interested or believe in the difference those terms are trying to describe. That's clearly way too profound for me to understand. But I do have organic farm status so I know when something is full of sh** or not ;)

[BornToRide]

That's clearly way too profound for me to understand. But I do have organic farm status so I know when something is full of sh** or not ;)Glad you do:)

[chancellor2]

Sorry Thomas, but having an organic farm is not the only way to be sure whether something is full of sh*( or not. I do not have an organic farm but I can tell pure bullsh*( when I see it.