Sigh... alright ulcer experts.. could this be ulcers?

[sublimequine]

My mare had yet another bout of gas colicky behavior yesterday. :(

Luckily it didn't seem to be an actual, full blown gas colic. But she was off her feed (she gets a handful of grain to mix her supplements in as a snack, and did not want to finish it like she always does with gusto). She was lethargic, and shifting weight on her hind end every few minutes. She was also warm to the touch, and would hold a bite of hay in her mouth.. but just hold it there, and then eventually spit it back out.

Also, right after she took a few bites of her snack and then refused anymore, she was yawning a lot, like 7 or 8 times in a row, and a LITTLE bit parked out. When I brought her in and took the snack away, she wasn't yawning or parking out anymore, but was still obviously unwell. She also kept doing strange things with her mouth occasionally, like rolling her tongue around and acting like something was stuck in her teeth, but there wasn't.

10cc of Banamine THANKFULLY cleared it up, and she was back to her perky self within 30 minutes. But this is the 4th bout of colicky behavior within I'd say 6 or 7 months time.. and one time required a hospital visit, so I really panic when it happens. :(

She lives a low-stress life, outside 24/7, minimal grain, grass 24/7 (although she just moved from a barn where she wasn't getting forage 24/7), no showing, trailering only twice a year. But she is a very high-strung horse, and is just kind of a nervous personality.

I really didn't think it was ulcers, but I'm getting to the end of my rope. What do you COTHers think? :no:

[sublimequine]

Forgot to say, the vet's coming out within the next week or so to do a lameness eval on her (rehabbing from a shoulder injury), so I'm going to ask him about it. So vet is going to be seeing her for it.

[pines4equines]

If she was lame, was she on bute or anything like that? My horse seemed to contract the ulcer, not from his life of luxury, but from the Doxy for a Lyme treatment.

I, too, could not believe he had them but again, it was his life but meds that irritated his stomach.

[evans36]

The one thing I've learned about ulcers is that just about any symptom of GI distress COULD be related to ulcers - whether gastric or colonic. Tons of other non-GI related symptoms (stiffness to one side, general crankyness, etc) can also at times be attributed to ulcers.

In your position, I might try buying a couple tubes of ulcerguard and using them for a few days. If you see a mood improvement, then it is probably ulcers. Judging from my horse's treatment, improvement was apparent within 24 hours, and within 48 hours I had a different horse. Even if your horse's aren't as severe, I'm thinking you'll at least see a difference in demeanor after a couple days if it's gastric ulcers.

If it's colonic ulcers you've got a whole nother problem without as quick of a fix.

[ladipus]

My mare had yet another bout of gas colicky behavior yesterday. :(

Luckily it didn't seem to be an actual, full blown gas colic. But she was off her feed (she gets a handful of grain to mix her supplements in as a snack, and did not want to finish it like she always does with gusto). She was lethargic, and shifting weight on her hind end every few minutes. She was also warm to the touch, and would hold a bite of hay in her mouth.. but just hold it there, and then eventually spit it back out.

Also, right after she took a few bites of her snack and then refused anymore, she was yawning a lot, like 7 or 8 times in a row, and a LITTLE bit parked out. When I brought her in and took the snack away, she wasn't yawning or parking out anymore, but was still obviously unwell. She also kept doing strange things with her mouth occasionally, like rolling her tongue around and acting like something was stuck in her teeth, but there wasn't.

10cc of Banamine THANKFULLY cleared it up, and she was back to her perky self within 30 minutes. But this is the 4th bout of colicky behavior within I'd say 6 or 7 months time.. and one time required a hospital visit, so I really panic when it happens. :(

She lives a low-stress life, outside 24/7, minimal grain, grass 24/7 (although she just moved from a barn where she wasn't getting forage 24/7), no showing, trailering only twice a year. But she is a very high-strung horse, and is just kind of a nervous personality.

I really didn't think it was ulcers, but I'm getting to the end of my rope. What do you COTHers think? :no:


If she came from a place where she wasn't getting forage 24/7 to abruptly getting grass 24/7 is it possible she was experiencing founder/laminitis?the uncomfortable behind/shifting weight,standing parked out sounds to me like founder/laminitis and uncomfortable feet...w/ colicking i would expect more pawing,getting up/down,turning/nipping at belly/sides etc,and certainly w/ ulcers/colic horses often go off feed but the other symptoms don't sound to me like they go hand in hand

[sublimequine]

If she was lame, was she on bute or anything like that? My horse seemed to contract the ulcer, not from his life of luxury, but from the Doxy for a Lyme treatment.

I, too, could not believe he had them but again, it was his life but meds that irritated his stomach.

Nope, she hasn't been on any NSAIDS whatsoever for almost a year now. The Banamine she got yesterday was the first drug at all she's gotten in a few months.

ladipus; No, I was able to transition her from minimal grass to 24/7 grass very carefully, so that's hopefully not an issue. Also, once the Banamine was administered, she went trotting off to see her friends.

[hollyhorse2000]

I agree with the earlier poster that is "could" be ulcers. As recommended, just order Ulcergard online for $30 a tube and try a full tube a day for three/four days and see what happens. Altho if the vet is coming out soon, I might wait until that visit so as not to complicate the diagnosis. She does sound to me like it might be more than ulcers or ulcers + something else

[sublimequine]

I agree with the earlier poster that is "could" be ulcers. As recommended, just order Ulcergard online for $30 a tube and try a full tube a day for three/four days and see what happens. Altho if the vet is coming out soon, I might wait until that visit so as not to complicate the diagnosis. She does sound to me like it might be more than ulcers or ulcers + something else

Do you have any other ideas as to what the "something else" would be? I'm really all ears, I'd love to hear any suggestions.

[Auventera Two]

My horse's ulcer situation was completley different from what I read so much of about on coth. She was never colicky, never off feed. She ate like a ravenous pregnant water buffalo. But she never gained a pound. And she was crazy spooky hot all the time. Progressively got hotter and flightier the more I rode her. So super sensitive that even fly spray landing on her skin made her jump a foot in the air. But the gastroscope showed a whole stomach FULL of bleeding ulcers. So I don't really know why hers was so different than the main stream "ulcer symptoms?" She also was on anywhere from 12-24 hr. turnout depending on the weather, on 10 acres with other horses. Free choice hay, mostly alfalfa.

So I guess I don't know what to say. I'd talk to a vet if I were you.

[sublimequine]

My horse's ulcer situation was completley different from what I read so much of about on coth. She was never colicky, never off feed. She ate like a ravenous pregnant water buffalo. But she never gained a pound. And she was crazy spooky hot all the time. Progressively got hotter and flightier the more I rode her. So super sensitive that even fly spray landing on her skin made her jump a foot in the air. But the gastroscope showed a whole stomach FULL of bleeding ulcers. So I don't really know why hers was so different than the main stream "ulcer symptoms?" She also was on anywhere from 12-24 hr. turnout depending on the weather, on 10 acres with other horses. Free choice hay, mostly alfalfa.

So I guess I don't know what to say. I'd talk to a vet if I were you.

I'll be talking to the vet and having her check her over in person when he's there to do her lameness checkup.

[Snapdragon]

It could definitely be ulcers. My mare, who is 9--I've owned her since she was 2--had four bouts of mild colic in a three-month period this past winter. She had never coliced before this. She had no other typical symptoms, other than she was just a tiny bit thinner than usual. She was in work, but about the same amount, maybe even a little less than usual.

I had her scoped, and yup, it was mild ulcers. Did Gastrogard and another drug I can't remember the name of at the moment and changed her feeding regimen, and she's been fine.

Good luck!

[sublimequine]

It could definitely be ulcers. My mare, who is 9--I've owned her since she was 2--had four bouts of mild colic in a three-month period this past winter. She had never coliced before this. She was in work, but about the same amount, maybe even a little less than usual.

I had her scoped, and yup, it was mild ulcers. Did Gastrogard and another drug I can't remember the name of at the moment and changed her feeding regimen, and she's been fine.

Good luck!

Thanks for the input. I'll definitely have to discuss the entire thing with my vet.. and if he thinks it may be ulcers, what my options are treatment-wise. I really can't afford a month's treatment of UG or GG.. :(

[Snapdragon]

My mare is just about 1,000 lb, and I was told to give half a tube per day for that month, so at least it wasn't the whole enchilada every day! You can buy Ulcergard, which is the exact same thing as Gastrogard, for about $31/tube online. It's crazy expensive, I agree! Can't wait for the patent to run out! If you can't swing that, maybe your vet can give you some other ideas if it turns out to be ulcers.

I know changing the feed regimen is important in going forward, and maybe that will do the trick by itself. I'm not an expert by any means though.

Hope it all turns out fine!

[sublimequine]

My mare is just about 1,000 lb, and I was told to give half a tube per day for that month, so at least it wasn't the whole enchilada every day! You can buy Ulcergard, which is the exact same thing as Gastrogard, for about $31/tube online. It's crazy expensive, I agree! Can't wait for the patent to run out! If you can't swing that, maybe your vet can give you some other ideas if it turns out to be ulcers.

I know changing the feed regimen is important in going forward, and maybe that will do the trick by itself. I'm not an expert by any means though.

Hope it all turns out fine!

Thanks, me too! :)

[ThoroughbredFancy]

You could always add something simple such as aloe or papaya juice and see if it makes her stomach feel better.

[sublimequine]

You could always add something simple such as aloe or papaya juice and see if it makes her stomach feel better.

She's already on Tractguard, which has an antacid in it, and it's really made no difference in her behavior/gas colic-y bouts. :confused:

I always heard that ulcery horses will respond to antacids, but obviously only for a short period of time. So that does seem kind of strange to me, that the antacids in the Tractgard seem to have little to no effect.

[Auventera Two]

I have had ulcers myself for many years, and a LOT of times, antacids make it worse, or give no help at all. Sometimes I think its the flavors and colors and extras they put in it! When I have a painful flareup, the ONLY thing that really helps is Protonix, or Nexium, or just the generic Omeprazole pills. Otherwise, I can take something like Tums of Maloxx and it helps for about 10 minutes, then I have to take another dose, then another. After about 4 to 5 doses over the course of an hour, I can get relief for a couple hours, then its back again.

So that's why I don't dink around with antacids for my horse. I just go straight to the Omeprazole. I do use Pro-CMC before rides but she also gets 1/4 tube Omeprazole every few days.

In my case, if I take just one Protonix or Nexium, I won't have any more issues for at least 4-5 days. It doesnt take a lot for maintenance.

[Eventer55]

Almost everythings been said, so I will just reiterate. I too have ulcers and antacids did nothing, absolutely nothing. My mare also colicked while on antacids. If you do a couple of days of ulcergard I'm sure you'll see a difference. Some horses (and this may not apply to you, )but some get ulcers as babies when they get weaned and need treatment. If they don't get treated they carry the ulcers all their lives until the ulcers get bad enought to colic the horse. IMO I would give any baby getting weaned ulcergard for a week, a friend of mine who breeds Arabs does this as a precaution.

After you treat with ulcergard: I give 1/4 tube the day before , during and day after a lesson, clinic, or event. I also feed U7, everyone has their own receipe for the maintenance, this is just mine. There's a product called ugard that's an antacid and it's supposed to work, but I haven't tried it.

I reread Auvetera Two's post and I will ditto everything in it. Even at home I sometimes give a 1/4 tube, just once in a while. It doesn't seem to take much for maintenance.

I also read every ulcer thread on COTH, because you never know if someone has a new something that may help with maintenance :yes: Remember, even if she gets scoped clean, she cans still have ulcers.

[pines4equines]

I agree with the U7. When my guy came off his month of Ulcer Gard, I put him on U7 and it seems to agree with him...

[evans36]

My horse also had none of the "regular" ulcer symptoms for bad ulcers - no colic, huge appetite, good stool. All that we went off of was no weight gain, sensitivity to grooming, aggressive behavior around food, and just general crabbiness.

He's been on generic omeprazole for about 2.5 weeks now. I never used the gastro/ulcerguard, but the generic worked for me and it's about 1/2 price. I did 2 weeks of the full tube at $14/each, then we're doing a month of 1/2 tube daily. Vet said it could be a 28 day treatment with only one week of full tube, but he's such a confirmed case and I saw such a difference after 2 days that I wanted to make absolutely sure we gave him the full time to heal. I would give mine tums before and they made a slight difference, but the difference that the omeprazole made was HUGE and it stayed longer than 10 minutes.

It definitely sounds like it could be ulcers, like I said before. Remember there are 2 kinds of ulcers - if you've got gas colic, she was parked out, and not wanting to eat, and that the banamine cleared it up, it could very well be hindgut problems. Perhaps not even ulcers but just something that she's eating that changes the Ph of her hindgut - could be a higher sugar grass that's coming in, any changes in feed, etc. The only product I've ever seen that says it acts as a buffer for the hindgut is Equishure (see smartpak). The other way to handle hindgut ulcers is diet modification. I've also heard raves about Succeed.

If it's gas, it has to do with the hindgut. Whether the problem is that things aren't digested well enough in the mouth bc of bad teeth, or that the digestion scheduled for the stomach doesn't happen well enough because of gastric ulcers, or whether it's that the horse is fed too much grain/sugars that cause acidosis when they get to the hindgut, the gas is made there for some reason.

If it were my horse, I would try a couple tubes of ulcerguard. If she's not a big girl, try a half-tube daily and if you see a big difference, then do a week of full tubes. Your vet may be able to prescribe the generic for you - it worked for my guy. If you don't see a difference there, I would talk to the vet and think about trying the hindgut buffer. As always, it *could* be something else, but it's cheaper to test out a couple tubes of ulcerguard than call the vet, and I think it's a good guess that it could very well be ulcers.

[sublimequine]

evans36; It's funny you should mention Equishure, she's on it. Been on it for about 2 weeks now. :yes:

Where do you get the generic omeprazole, if you don't mind me asking? And is it a paste? Does it have some sort of ingredient that makes sure it passes the stomach, like UG and GG does?

[evans36]

I got it through the vet/chiro, it's a 30g paste syringe with omeprazole and bismuth salyclate as the buffer. After speaking with the vet she has had anecdotal success with using the generic in this form with plenty of horses, and now mine's on the list too. Also, as far as the buffering to get past the acid goes, it's a proton pump inhibitor that stops the production of the acid, so really you should be able to give it after the first day or two without a buffering agent.

If she's already on the Equishure, have you tried the diet changes (free-choice hay/forage, low sugar diet)? You can also get the do-at-home fecal blood test from succeed for not a lot of $ and that's a good way to know if hind gut ulcers are an issue (although I don't think lack of blood completely rules them out - kind of like fecal egg tests for worms).

[AJHorsey]

Ask your vet about the Succeed test kit. They have an ulcer testing kit that you are supposedly able to do at home (get it through your vet). Haven't done it yet. My vet wants me to try the kit next time we have a big ulcer- type episode, since we never scoped, but have treated with positive results as thought he was ulcer. On the low starch diet, beet pulp, ulcerguard, ranitidine, and alfalfa hay. Hopefully we won't have to use it, but I'm pretty sure we will...*sigh*. It's a cheaper than scoping test, and will let you know about any blood in the system, from ulcers of otherwise.

[sublimequine]

I got it through the vet/chiro, it's a 30g paste syringe with omeprazole and bismuth salyclate as the buffer. After speaking with the vet she has had anecdotal success with using the generic in this form with plenty of horses, and now mine's on the list too. Also, as far as the buffering to get past the acid goes, it's a proton pump inhibitor that stops the production of the acid, so really you should be able to give it after the first day or two without a buffering agent.

If she's already on the Equishure, have you tried the diet changes (free-choice hay/forage, low sugar diet)? You can also get the do-at-home fecal blood test from succeed for not a lot of $ and that's a good way to know if hind gut ulcers are an issue (although I don't think lack of blood completely rules them out - kind of like fecal egg tests for worms).

She's on grass 24/7, but just moved from a barn where she was only getting hay 2x a day and limited grass, so no free choice forage. She may need some time on the free fed grass to help her tummy out. :(

She also gets minimal grain, I'm not 100% sure how much sugar is in the feed she gets. It's called Horseman's Edge by Purina, anyone know where I can find info on it?

I'll try and look up the Succeed test. I considered putting her on Succeed, but alas, it's also a bit cost-prohibitive for me. If nothing else works, I may try it.

[evans36]

It took mine about 4-6 months for me to realize that the 24/7 turnout was making a significant difference in his attitude and outlook. I didn't connect the dots immediately to ulcers, but I am now pretty sure that was a big part of it.


Here's the website for the succeed fecal blood test: http://www.succeedfbt.com/index.asp
It says you can only get it through your vet, but that it is priced for vets to sell clients at about $40/pop. That's pretty reasonable!

Try the purina website - most companies are pretty good about putting up the basic nutrient profile for their feeds.

[sublimequine]

It took mine about 4-6 months for me to realize that the 24/7 turnout was making a significant difference in his attitude and outlook. I didn't connect the dots immediately to ulcers, but I am now pretty sure that was a big part of it.


Here's the website for the succeed fecal blood test: http://www.succeedfbt.com/index.asp
It says you can only get it through your vet, but that it is priced for vets to sell clients at about $40/pop. That's pretty reasonable!

Try the purina website - most companies are pretty good about putting up the basic nutrient profile for their feeds.

Thanks for the link! :yes:

[Auventera Two]

Also, as far as the buffering to get past the acid goes, it's a proton pump inhibitor that stops the production of the acid, so really you should be able to give it after the first day or two without a buffering agent.

Without stomach acid, the horse cannot digest food. Proton pump inhibitors do not "stop the production of the acid." They shut down SOME of the pumps to REDUCE the amount of stomach acid to a more normal level. You don't just have to worry about the first few days. ;)

[evans36]

Hahaha I didn't mean they stopped the production of all acid! But they do stop the production of part of the acid. From what I understand the high amount of acid is the reason that the drug needs the emollient casings as a buffer. It seems to me that if the acid is reduced and you give the same amount of drug, more of it gets through. Like I said, I haven't done the research though... just seems like common sense. And the generic has worked on my guy, who's a hardened case, so that's always what I'll try first in the future, since it's about half the price.

[sublimequine]

I've been doing some research, and it sounds like generic omeprazole or ranitidine are going to be my two main choices in my budget. Anyone know much about ranitidine? The "must be given every 8 hours" thing will definitely be difficult to do at a boarding barn 30 minutes away from home.. hm..

I'm trying not to jump the gun here, as I haven't spoken to the vet yet and she DOESN'T have the majority of the ulcer symptoms, but I want to be well-versed in this stuff anyways. :)

[evans36]

Those were the 2 that I spoke with about the vet as well. Basically ranitidine is cheaper but wasn't feasible in my case because it had to be dosed so often. My BO doesn't make a habit of giving supps or meds, and I can't get out there 3x daily. So if you're not living there or at a full-svc. barn, omeprazole is probably the better option. Basically the thing you're looking for is to get the acid abated in the stomach long enough to allow the ulcers to heal, and both do that. the rainitidine just is way more high-maintenance as a treatment.

[GirlGeek]

For those of you that order GastroGuard and/or Ulcerguard on line, do you have to have a prescription to order it? (I've never ordered animal meds on line before...)

And where do you order from?

[Joie]

I've been doing some research, and it sounds like generic omeprazole or ranitidine are going to be my two main choices in my budget. Anyone know much about ranitidine? The "must be given every 8 hours" thing will definitely be difficult to do at a boarding barn 30 minutes away from home.. hm..

I'm trying not to jump the gun here, as I haven't spoken to the vet yet and she DOESN'T have the majority of the ulcer symptoms, but I want to be well-versed in this stuff anyways. :)


I use the compounded Omeprazole from Precision Pharmacy:

http://www.myprecisionpharmacy.com

And have also used the Omeprazole in pill form from what "used" to be called Pony Meds...I think they have a new website or a new link.

[readytorodeo]

My mare had yet another bout of gas colicky behavior yesterday. :(

Luckily it didn't seem to be an actual, full blown gas colic. But she was off her feed (she gets a handful of grain to mix her supplements in as a snack, and did not want to finish it like she always does with gusto). She was lethargic, and shifting weight on her hind end every few minutes. She was also warm to the touch, and would hold a bite of hay in her mouth.. but just hold it there, and then eventually spit it back out.

Also, right after she took a few bites of her snack and then refused anymore, she was yawning a lot, like 7 or 8 times in a row, and a LITTLE bit parked out. When I brought her in and took the snack away, she wasn't yawning or parking out anymore, but was still obviously unwell. She also kept doing strange things with her mouth occasionally, like rolling her tongue around and acting like something was stuck in her teeth, but there wasn't.

10cc of Banamine THANKFULLY cleared it up, and she was back to her perky self within 30 minutes. But this is the 4th bout of colicky behavior within I'd say 6 or 7 months time.. and one time required a hospital visit, so I really panic when it happens. :(

She lives a low-stress life, outside 24/7, minimal grain, grass 24/7 (although she just moved from a barn where she wasn't getting forage 24/7), no showing, trailering only twice a year. But she is a very high-strung horse, and is just kind of a nervous personality.

I really didn't think it was ulcers, but I'm getting to the end of my rope. What do you COTHers think? :no:
It sounds like Ulcers. I would try Gastromin from swedish Horse Power and feed a low starch diet such as Safe Choice and give all the hay she can eat 24/7. Pm me if you want more info. The Gastromin is 120 plus shipping for a month supply

[hollyhorse2000]

You do not need a prescription for Ulcergard, which is the exact same thing as Gastrogard but marketed for prevention not cure, so you don't need an RX. The dosage for prevention is 1/4 tube daily; for cure, it's one full tube a day.

Entirelypets.com is where I got mine.

I, too, didn't have a lot of symptoms. My horse was just girthy and I thought I'd give UG a try. She gained I don't know how much weight in just two weeks! I was horrified that it had taken me so long to connect her somewhat less than roundedness with ulcers . . .

I did not go with the compounded omeprazole or ranitidine. I bit the bullet and went with what has been proven to work -- and it did.

I don't have opinions about what other things might be part of the picture for your horse. I'd rely on the vet visit for that.

[sublimequine]

Thanks for all the input guys, hopefully my vet will call me soon as to when he can get out there. :)

Perhaps someone can clear up something I read that's a bit confusing to me. A few articles said that some ulcers will randomly heal on their own?! How does this work? A few articles said that basically just turn a horse out to pasture and the ulcers will take care of themselves, but I can't believe that really happens! :lol:

[PinkPonies]

Perhaps someone can clear up something I read that's a bit confusing to me. A few articles said that some ulcers will randomly heal on their own?! How does this work? A few articles said that basically just turn a horse out to pasture and the ulcers will take care of themselves, but I can't believe that really happens! :lol:

I asked the same thing after my gelding's ulcer symptons slowly faded when he was retired to pasture...

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=170385

[ThoroughbredFancy]

Is it possible she was experiencing a mild case of choke?

[hollyhorse2000]

Yes, I've read that 24/7 turnout will EVENTUALLY heal ulcers (i think the idea was two months or so). But I'm also skeptical in that studies have also shown that broodmares on pasture have ulcers. So while turnout in a nice pasture would certainly help, it's not a realistic option for me and my horse . . .

[sublimequine]

I asked the same thing after my gelding's ulcer symptons slowly faded when he was retired to pasture...

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=170385

That's really interesting. I'll have to ask my vet about that too!