Average horse temperature after upper level XC?

[Duramax]

Does anyone know what the average temperature a horse will have after coming off a *** or **** course? I was talking to someone who was at JF and said one horse (who went on to win the next day) had a temperature of 106 coming off of xc. Is that pretty normal for this level? How long does it take to get it back down? I've only done a T3D and have never worked in the vet box so I don't know.

[Blugal]

I have been told that 104 is quite high (as in get ice water on them immediately and continue doing so until they are down to 101); anything above 104 is cause for enormous concern. I was given to believe that would be the region of "cooking" the muscles.

That was at CCI*/** - I don't know if higher temps are "expected" at Advanced.

[EAlli]

I worked the vet box during a ***, and the average temp we got was 103.

[NeverTime]

I seem to remember 104+/- among horses coming off the CCI*** XC at Fair Hill last year. We did the CCI** and the vets were very pleased with 102.something and let us go fairly quicky.

Looking online, I found the abstract of a study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8933083) of horses competing at Burghley in 1993 & 1994 (so long-format) and it said the average temp after Phase D was 105.9 and temps ranged from 103.4 to 107+.
The conclusion: "While the Speed and Endurance test at CCI*****level run in a temperate climate presents a considerable challenge to the fitness and ability of the horses competing, the metabolic and physiological changes are not extreme. The majority of horses that finish the test appear to undergo a rapid and considerable degree of recovery and are able to present sound at the final inspection, take part in the showjumping test and complete the competition."

The Singer article is more recent and compared LF and SF CCI** info, but I don't have a link to that.

[WakeRider]

My purebred Connemara pony had a temp of 101 coming off of the CIC** at Fair Hill in April (and almost made time!).... the vet was impressed and sent us right on our way

[Gry2Yng]

I known one that would come in off the long format at 107ish. Horse did much better in the short format.

[JER]

The critical threshold for horses is 107/108.

Of course, 'normal' is relative and you really need to know what's normal for your horse -- how fast does he cool out? what is his temp after exercising in the head? is his sweating response normal for him?

This article (http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/pulmonaryhemorrhage-142.shtml) has a good summary.

[nextyear]

A black mare that i competed at the long format a number of years ago always had a resting temp of 100.3 so when we came off phase D it was over 105 took lots of ice and reicing to bring down and the mare was wheeling around like she was ready to do endurance day all over again, was not tired or winded, her not settling down did not help bring her temp down .
Other horses I have had at 3-days have always been in the 103 to 104 range depending on the weather for the day.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

There is no average...because you have to consider the weather.

For example...Fair Hill last fall was very cool. Jersey Fresh this year was VERY humid and on the hot side.....but the humidity is almost worse than the heat.


So in hot humid weather...I would expect the temps to be higher...and actually to probably go up after they cross the finish. It is why it is so important to have a good team of people who know how to cool down a horse fast usng ice water (maybe even alcohol in the water), cooling fans etc......

But a temp even as high as 105 wouldn't freak me out...but you would work to cool them down as fast as you can.

[subk]

I would think the temp 5 minutes after the finish is much, much more significant and informative than the first one taken directly after the finish flags. The Atlanta studies not only showed that you can't cool out a horse too fast, but the faster the better. I agree with bfne, the average temp would be related to the weather conditions, so it's difficult to have an across the board average.

[flightinstructor]

A couple years ago at the Morven CCI* it was very humid (visibly so) and in the mid 70s. Many of the horses were coming off off x/c with temps around 105. Thankfully the organizers had LOTS of ice.

[NeverTime]

Looking online, I found the abstract of a study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8933083) of horses competing at Burghley in 1993 & 1994 (so long-format) and it said the average temp after Phase D was 105.9 and temps ranged from 103.4 to 107+.
The conclusion: "While the Speed and Endurance test at CCI*****level run in a temperate climate presents a considerable challenge to the fitness and ability of the horses competing, the metabolic and physiological changes are not extreme. The majority of horses that finish the test appear to undergo a rapid and considerable degree of recovery and are able to present sound at the final inspection, take part in the showjumping test and complete the competition."

If I'm reading the above abstract correctly, it sounds like the 1993 Burghley was much cooler - 68 in the sun, 3% humidity - than the 1994 event - 84 in the sun and 10% humidity. The high and low temp ranges of 103.4 and 107.2 were calculated in the second, hotter year.

[McVillesMom]

The horses I saw at this year's Rolex, which was warmer than some have been, were around 104.

[Highflyer]

I know that the first year pony club had polocrosse championships (KY Horse Park in August) they tracked temps--most of them were 103-105 after 8 minute chukkas--and those horses played four chukkas per day for three days, without any noticeable problems. They went down very quickly (within 15 minutes each time) with the application of ice water. The big thing that I noticed, was that you almost could not keep enough drinking water in front of the horses, either while cooling down or in the barns. They drank 3+ buckets each night, and we were scrambling to borrow extra buckets to hang in the stalls! I can see where giving IV fluids would be very important for event horses in hot climates.

[Duramax]

Perhaps "average" was not the correct word to use. I was curious as to the range, the upper limits of what is seen and at what point its considered dangerously high. (What would the point of no return be???)

[Gry2Yng]

I know that the first year pony club had polocrosse championships (KY Horse Park in August) they tracked temps--most of them were 103-105 after 8 minute chukkas--and those horses played four chukkas per day for three days, without any noticeable problems. They went down very quickly (within 15 minutes each time) with the application of ice water. The big thing that I noticed, was that you almost could not keep enough drinking water in front of the horses, either while cooling down or in the barns. They drank 3+ buckets each night, and we were scrambling to borrow extra buckets to hang in the stalls! I can see where giving IV fluids would be very important for event horses in hot climates.

Excellent point! Hydrate UP!

[colliemom]

Reading this thread makes me remember back 4 or 5 years to the NAYRC in Lexington VA, where I was part of the groom team cooling off the horses for the Area II teams. That year they had both the long and short format CCI*, and the horses in the short format came in hotter for the most part than those that came in off the long format. Anecdotal, yes, since I have no idea what "normal" was for any of the horses, but it got my attention. It was my first personal experience with the short format.

Our horse in his three three-days (all long format, two one stars and a two star) comes off XC around 103 - 103.5, and typically goes UP a degree or too in the first 5-10 minutes, requiring aggressive cooling (which we know and are prepared for.) He is not stressed in other ways, recovers quickly in all his other measurements, but he just "runs hot." It's important to know your individual horse's tendencies.

[GotSpots]

In general, if they're at 102 or 103, I'm cooling them out but not too worried about it; if they are at 104-105 I start cooling pretty aggressively and the only one I ever had come in at 105.2 we worked very hard to get iced down FAST. Alot depends on the horse - we had one TB who came off a long format CCI* last fall at 101 and didn't change until ten minutes in when he started trying to show the vet who was trying to take a third temp how well his hind legs were working. And this bugger jigged the entire roads and tracks (and had been at 101.2 coming off of C). I saw other horses who were just a bit of a different type and they came in quite a bit warmer, though the temperatures were nigh perfect for XC. In contrast, at Jersey a few years ago it was blistering hot and humid I remember even super fit TBs coming off XC with temps north of 104 and it being really really hard to get them cool - we stood most of them in the fans for a long time in the covered ring, as the mud in there got deeper and deeper.

Big fan of running fluids if the horse needs it. Particularly if you have one who wants to be a little picky about strange water buckets or different tasting water, or even if they look like they might be a bit muscle sore, I want them hydrated as much as possible, as soon as possible. It makes them alot more comfortable faster.

[EventerAJ]

Ditto what GotSpots said, on every point. I was at Jersey in 07 and it was miserable, and we did most of our cooling in the shade of the (very swampy!) indoor and misting fans.

In "normal" summery weather conditions, 103 to 104 is about what I expect; after 10 minutes of cooldown, a fit horse should be back to 102 or less. Go up or down a degree if weather is very hot/humid or breezy/cool. Anything above 105 is indication of a SERIOUSLY STRESSED horse and must be cooled down ASAP (especially taken into consideration that the temp will continue to rise momentarily after the initial t/p/r).

[flea]

I used to help in the vet box at Camino Real. I seem to remember after they came off course we took their temp immediately and it was high. However, many times it was higher a little while after they had been there then started coming down. Any ideas on that, does the wind they generate while moving have anything to do with it. They had huge troughs of iced water of course and I never saw a horse in trouble although their release times varied.

[Gnep]

It starts with the horses base temp, some are around 98 some can be at 100.
I had a horse that would have even in the winter, at -20 and a clowdy day 100. Naturally she came of x-c very hot, 106 or 107. But considering her base temp she was not realy that hot.
Very tricky to handle a horse like that, close to boiling but not realy to much over base.

Regular checks, resting, mild stress, stressed and very stressed and the cool of phase without help, than the cool of with help gives you the proper knowledge. Important is the 30 minutes and 1 hour check, horse is a huge heat sink.

the temp differance between base and very stressed and the recup, drop of temp, is the story.

[tuppysmom]

My DD's 4 star horse is on the small side. He is also on the nasty, nonsocial side. His temp after a 4 star is 102/104. He can raise that temp to 106 after icing and walking. His HR will be 100 when he enters the box. The more we mess with him the higher it goes. If we can ice him and walk him and then let him graze or take him back to his stall, pretend that nothing has happened today,(ya right), both his temp and HR come down pretty fast. If the vets make him stay in the "box" his temp will go UP and his HR will not drop much, and can even go up. He can have a HR of 50 when "we" check it and as soon as the vet touches him , it will jump up to 80. He just doesn't like to be messed with. He has his best recoveries when we can get him away from the box and back in his stall asap, even if he is still hot temp wise.

The DD's other horse is bigger and a world apart as far as disposition. He will come into the box with a HR of 80, and a temp of 101. he will drop to 65 in 5 mins and 40 at ten mins. His temp will be 101 at arrival and stay there. He can be at temp of 100 and HR of 35 in 15 mins.

All depends on the critter.

[McVillesMom]

Slightly OT - tuppysmom, we had a few like that this year at Rolex also...made me realize that you have to look at the whole picture - how the horse is feeling - more than their parameters sometimes. Some of them we just released - it was obvious that they were not in any physical distress, and they were just going to get more annoyed the longer we kept them!

[secretariat]

Temp not as important as type of horse, body mass, and cooldown/response rate versus ambient, although certainly max is an important number. Combine temp with respiration and heart rate, crossed on recovery rate, and you've got a pretty good picture. We've never had one over 105, where I'd start to be concerned. Many/most of our horses (would like to hear feedback on this one, as I noted it earlier in the conversation) actually show HIGHER body temps a minute or two after finishing. Best temp on any of ours was 101.5 after CCI**, rose almost a degree and was low normal within 5 minutes or so. Must not have worked him hard enough. We run a lot of TB's, so WB's worry me (because I have no experience with them and expect them to be hotter, assumption on my part).

[Gry2Yng]

I groomed for a mare at her first CCI* that was just that *hot* don't touch me type. I braided her from the withers up to the ears, because the last three braids were a B----! If you started at the top you would never get her whole neck done, but if I did the last three over the course of feeding and cleaning her stall, it worked. You could not get anywhere NEAR her ears and you can FORGET a temp! Anyway, the vet box totally pissed her off and all I wanted to do was graze her and get her TPR down. Had to have a bit of a battle about it, but once she got some Dr. Green, her stats settled right down.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

(because I have no experience with them and expect them to be hotter, assumption on my part).


going up a little after finish is normal in my experience as well....not a vet, just groomed a lot. But on warmbloods....I've known several that finished better than most TBs (lower temps and faster recover). Of course there were others that didn't but I don't think you can make a generalization.

[Gnep]

What Tuppy said was most important. Some horses just relax very nice in D or after D, some just want get going with the job ( D ) or some are just want to go to the barn, and just get very pissed of if they have to deal with the drill.
Good Vet and a Inbarn explanation what to expect will do realy good. if the Vets know what to expect, they can deal with it. Inbarn is a very good time to have a lille chat.
Jester and Harlekin were very easy, they just droped dead and were out of the vet - box in no time. The Lady I am riding presently got a real attitude and hates all thats stuf, she gets so mad she kicks at every thing and nothing and she does not kick for show. If she has to wait at a jog more than 15 minutes, she gets mad and everybody better make a very large circle around her. She gets so mad she runs 104, just standing and waiting her turn, kiking constantly and foaming on the bit. You get her to the stall area and she is like a dog and relaxes instantly, temp drops heart goes down, but she is realy cool in warm up, startbox etc.
Harlekin was at a regular 106, 10 minutes to 100, Jester 104 took a long time to get him down around 30 minutes his other vitales were down in 10 minutes, basicly asleep.
Wild Fire comes in at 104 maybe 105 and blows all over the place within 5 minutes if she can not go to the stables, temp goes up heart goes up and her left leg becomes a leathel gatling gun.
Depending on the horse, base temp and experiance with that horse, 104 to 107 is ok, weather is a big factor, time of the year to and were they come from, colour and how they are able to shed temp.