Big name stakes winning mares as broomares? Boom or bust? Thoughts? Statistics?

[findeight]

Thought this might be fun in light of the current climate in racing.

How do the ultra successful, marquee name stakes winning mares do as Mommies? Not your average, competent race mare that is good enough, the superstars.

Back when, there was an old theory that the very best race mares that could best the boys were not the best bets as broodmares.

Current thoughts? Statistics and specifics? Major stakes winning mares against the boys that produced multiple offspring that were good? And...yeah, I know, one a year is harder then 140
Curlin is hoping to put on the ground next year.

BTW not aimed at RA particularly, she has a bit to go to move into the supermare category.

[vineyridge]

Findeight, I read an article that used to be online by Floyd Oliver (?), who is a TB pedigree consultant. He took the Champions from a fifty year or so period and compared the dam's racing results to the offspring's results. His results were somewhat skewed by an error (La Troienne did have one race in which she did not place), but he concluded that in only one case was the get's record better than a champion dam's. If I recall correctly, the best broodmares had winnings from 40k to about 200k. Anything over that and the foals weren't as good as their dams.

Of course I'm only going by memory of the article. Can't remember if I saved it on my old HD.

[findeight]

Interesting, even given the smaller number of foals then the studs get.

IIRC there was a theory that the superstar mares were harder to get in foal and had more trouble carrying to term. The old boys felt they were just too much like the boys. They wanted a good, solid, fast race mare that ran well and would not quit but not one that would lock horns in a duel down the stretch or just eye their way through the pack because the others would back down.

Anybody done any corelation with speed figures and success as a broodmare?

Seems you have even less chance of bettering a 5 or 6 million dollar purchase of a stakes winning toughass mare then you do the gamble with any stud when it comes to their progeny.

[LaurieB]

Just taking a look through the last decade's worth of Keeneland and Fasig Tipton catalogues will confirm pretty conclusively that while the top racemares' offspring bring very high prices at the sales, they very seldom live up to their perceived potential.

[fish]

Not much good with numbers, but Personal Ensign, Miesque and Dance Smartly popped up pretty quickly as super, beat-the-boys racemares who were also great broodmares.

[lalahartma1]

Interesting, even given the smaller number of foals then the studs get.

IIRC there was a theory that the superstar mares were harder to get in foal and had more trouble carrying to term. The old boys felt they were just too much like the boys. They wanted a good, solid, fast race mare that ran well and would not quit but not one that would lock horns in a duel down the stretch or just eye their way through the pack because the others would back down.

Anybody done any corelation with speed figures and success as a broodmare?

Seems you have even less chance of bettering a 5 or 6 million dollar purchase of a stakes winning toughass mare then you do the gamble with any stud when it comes to their progeny.

Sounds scientific! :lol:

How often do superstar stallions sire an even better foal?

[Ibex]

The boys just have a lot more opportunity to prove themselves!

Mariah's Storm produced Giant's Causeway
Dance Smartly produced stakes winners
Classy n' Smart produced Dance Smartly and Smart Strike

I'm sure there are others...

[Larksmom]

She was truely one of the best that ever looked thru a bridle. I got to see her at BC in 88. That was one of the few times I ventured to a real track. What a horse! It seems she has produced a LOT of winners. I think I would really like to get my hands on the new book about the best broodmares just out.

[vineyridge]

Personal Ensign was an exceptional broodmare, but none of her foals came anywhere near her performance records.

She was one of the last generation of TBs who had a majority of the sires in their lines coming from families other than Phalaris. Since she was mostly bred to the hottest sires of her day who did have the "fashionable" pedigrees, it really was a case of breeding the best to the best, and still the foals weren't able to match their dam's performance on the track.

[Sing Mia Song]

Interesting thread.

I remember hearing that Shuvee used to run the legs off her foals.

I think it depends on a lot of different factors: is she so competitive and wound so tight that (like Shuvee) her foals don't have the chance to flourish during their infancy? Was she the victim of a big foal early on that compromised her fertility (Genuine Risk)? Was she bred to the wrong stallions (Broad Brush x Winning Colors? Really?)?

There's just so many factors involved that I think it's hard to pin it down.

[Linny]

Urban Sea won the Arc and threw Gallieo. Juddmonte's Toussaud was an amazing producer and was a major stakes winner.

[fish]

Gold Beauty (by Mr. P) is another great racemare who would qualify in my book: Champion sprinter herself, dam of Ch. Dayjur and GSW Maplejinsky (dam of Ch. Sky Beauty).

[Barnfairy]

Champion Mom's Command produced multiple stakes winner Jonesboro.

_______________

Closed minded Suffolk Downs groupie.

Please pass the Kool-Aid funnel.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Rose of Kingston - 1st AJC Derby (AUS-G1), 1st AJC Oaks (AUS-G1), 2nd Rosehill Guineas (AUS-G1)
---- Kingston Rule - 1st Melbourne Cup (AUS-G1)

Miesque - 1st BC Mile (US-G1)x2, 1st 1000 Guineas (GB-G1), 1st French 1000 Guineas (FR-G1), 1st Prix D'Ispahan (FR-G1), 1st Prix Jacques Marois (FR-G1)x2, 1st Prix Du Moulin (FR-G1), 2nd French Oaks (FR-G1)
---- Kingmambo - 1st French 2000Guineas (FR-G1), 1st St. James's Palace S. (GB-G1), 1st Prix Du Moulin (FR-G1), 3rd Prix Jacques le Marois (FR-G1), 3rd Queen Elizabeth II S. (GB-G1)
---- East of the Moon - 1st French 1000 Guineas (FR-G1), 1st French Oaks Fr-G1)
---- Miesque's Son - 2nd Prix de la Foret Gr.1 (FR-G1), 2nd Prix Maurice de Gheest Gr.1 (FR-G1)

Urban Sea - 1st Prix de L'Arc (FR-G1), 1st Prince of Wales (GB-G1)
---- Galileo - 1st Derby (GB-G1), 1st Irish Derby (IRE-G1), 1st King George & QEII (GB G1), 2nd Irish Champion Stakes (IRE-G1)
---- Black Sam Bellamy - 1st Gran Premio del Jockey Club (ITY-G1), Tattersall's Gold Cup (IRE-G1)
---- Sea The Stars - 1st 2000 Guineas (GB-G1)
---- My Typhoon - 1st Diana Stakes (USA-G1)
---- All Too Beautiful - 2nd Oaks S. (GB-G1).

Fairy Bridge - 2yo Champion in Ire
---- Sadler's Wells - 1st Irish 2000 Guineas (IRE-G1), 1st Eclipse Stakes (GB-G1), 1st Irish Champion Stakes (IRE-G1), 2nd French Derby (FR-G1), 2nd King George & QEII (GB G1)
---- Fairy Gold - 2nd Moyglare Stud S (IRE-G1) ,3rd Phoenix S (IRE-G1)

Walensee - 1st Prix Vermeille (FR-G1)
---- Westerner - 1st Ascot Gold Cup (GB-G1), Prix du Cadran (FR-G1)x2, Prix Royal Oak (FR-G1)x2, 2nd Prix de l' Arc (FR-G1)

Floripedes - 2nd Prix Royal Oak (FR-G1)
---- Montjeu- 1st Prix de l' Arc (FR-G1), French Derby (FR-G1), Irish Derby (IRE-G1), King George & QEII (GB-G1), Tattersalls Gold Cup (IRE-G1), Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud (FR-G1)

Park Express - 1st Irish Champion S (IRE-G1)
---- New Approach - 1st Derby (GB-G1), 1st Champion Stakes (GB-G1), 1st Irish Champion Stakes (IRE-G1), 1st Dewhurst (GB-G1), National Stakes (IRE-G1), 2nd 2000 Guineas (GB-G1), 2nd Irish 2000 Guineas (IRE-G1)
---- Dazzling Park - 2nd Irish Champion S. (Ire-G1), 3rd Irish 1000 Guineas (IRE-G1)

[fish]

Let's not forget Terlingua: defeated colts in the Hollywood Juvenile Stakes, produced Storm Cat and Chapel of Dreams.

Weekend Surprise didn't run against colts (did Mom's Command??), but was certainly no slouch (GSW of $400K+), and produced A.P. Indy, Summer Squall....

Off hand, I'd say that the people who pay millions for successful race mares as broodmare prospects know what they're doing: the first few foals are likely to sell high on the basis of their parents' records, and if those turn out to run well, too, the potential returns are limitless.

P.S. What about Fanfreluche? Not sure whether she ran against boys (anyone??), but certainly a sensational racehorse and producer (Medaille D'Or, Lenjoleur, La Voyageuse, D'Accord).

[ASB Stars]

Findeight, I read an article that used to be online by Floyd Oliver (?), who is a TB pedigree consultant. He took the Champions from a fifty year or so period and compared the dam's racing results to the offspring's results. His results were somewhat skewed by an error (La Troienne did have one race in which she did not place), but he concluded that in only one case was the get's record better than a champion dam's. If I recall correctly, the best broodmares had winnings from 40k to about 200k. Anything over that and the foals weren't as good as their dams.

Of course I'm only going by memory of the article. Can't remember if I saved it on my old HD.

You know, the only problem with this, Viney, is that when we go back to the 1920-1960's, the purses were smaller, so the earnings were not as substantial. When Princess Turia won the Delaware Handicap, in 1957, her take was $110, 875- a record for a female TB, at that ime. By the same token, the mares of this era may win more, but we'll know less about their long term contributions, for some time.

I remember Doubledogdare was a hell of a race mare (two time champion filly), but didn't produce anything of note. For her time- her earnings were probably substantial. Not so much, now.

Perhaps if we adjusted for inflation, etc., and then evaluated, the picture would become clearer...

[vineyridge]

The study I mentioned only looked at horses who were the Champions of their years, so earnings would be somewhat less important.

He divided the mares into three classes as I recall: Those who had raced and won; those had never raced at all; and those who had raced and not won themselves. The value of the progeny was in that order as well--which is why La Troienne skewed the study. The only Champion mare who outproduced herself was Lea Lark.

As you can tell, I was much impressed by his findings, even though they didn't take into account the most modern mares.

[fish]

Are there any comparable studies of how many male champions "outproduced themselves"??

[lesson junkie]

How about Dahlia?

[cloudyandcallie]

I know "they" said it about Genuine Risk and Winning Colors, but I wonder if it is the ah, things that are given to the filies/mares when racing that might cause the problem? Such as steroids and such?
I think that maybe embryo transfer would be the answer if it were allowed. (And I know it's the same genes, but I think that this still might be the answer.)
Some of the star jumping mares such as Weiheiwej and Rox Dene had foals by embryo transfer, and I'd like to see what they do in show jumping.

[fish]

How about Dahlia?

Good one: according to the Del Mar site: "Since the inception of graded stakes in 1971, only 4 Northern Hemisphere based mares have foaled 4 individual G1 winners: Toussaud, Hasili, Fall Aspen and Dahlia (Dahar, Dahlia's Dreamer, Delegant and Rivlia)."

[Larksmom]

I know "they" said it about Genuine Risk and Winning Colors, but I wonder if it is the ah, things that are given to the filies/mares when racing that might cause the problem? Such as steroids and such?
I think that maybe embryo transfer would be the answer if it were allowed. (And I know it's the same genes, but I think that this still might be the answer.)
Some of the star jumping mares such as Weiheiwej and Rox Dene had foals by embryo transfer, and I'd like to see what they do in show jumping.

Whether or not it would be good, hard to say, but I think t'aint likely

[vineyridge]

The problem with the more extreme methods of AI like cloning and ET is that the recipient mare and her chemicals may very well have a lot to do with the final foals, or so I am led to believe. Apparently the placental tissues also have an X chromosome from the recipient, and there is some controversy about how the recipient's X and the foal's in utero X, which is highly important in the turning on and turning off of genes, actually work together or possibly against each other.

This is all second and third hand hearsay, so I may just be spouting smoke from my ignorant mouth.