chronic complainer

[pixie]

Has anyone ever had or have experience with a horse that complains constantly? He complains when he is standing on the cross ties (grinds teeth and goes up and down with his head), under saddle, grooming, touching most anywhere on his body, basically anything that doesn't have to do with eating!
He seems to have an attitude about everything and has a temper to boot (but that has subsided greatly with age, he is approaching 7). I have (over the past 3 yrs) addressed what I believed to be physical problems (each and every one of them) and am at the end of my ropes.
I am tired of fixing him and listening to him complain. I have started boot camp which I should have done 2 years ago, but he always seems to be sore somewhere so I address that first. Today was his second day of boot camp and although he had a fit 5 minutes into it it got better and ended with him soft and supple with minimal teeth grinding.
The thing that is interesting is that I really believe he even complains about the pressure the bit puts on his mouth when I ask him to soften or bend or even turn. I really don't get a true feel as he lowers his head just enough to not sustain pressure in my hands. He really complains about ANY pressure from any source! ANYONE??? He is by Just The Best fyi.

[sublimequine]

Did you ever have him scoped for ulcers?

[Eventer55]

This is such a broken record, but you have just described the perfect ulcer horse. So, do a couple weeks of ulcergard and see. You can get it for 28.99 on line. I saw a big difference in a few days when I started the 30 day treatment.

There are so many threads on this I hate to bring up all the feeding, care etc, but you'll have plenty of info and a lot is fairly redundant. You should also tell your vet to get a medical opinion.

[pixie]

He REALLYdoesn't like pressure of any type. Even closed in spaces ...doorways when he was young, going on a trailer was very challenging and even to this day he takes little teensy slow steps getting on, the first time I put him in side reins 3 years ago (very long and loose was frightening). He has reared plenty on the ground but never under tack but I suspect he could be provoked to do so easily.
The weirdest thing about him is that he requires a very loud correction either verbally or physically to get through to him when he is non-conforming. More so than the average horse. His attitude has been very disturbing over the years especially on the ground. I am pretty sure his rearing on the ground is over with as I haven't seen it in the past year, but it required almost abuse like treatment to get through to him.

[pixie]

Although I haver never had him scoped I have treated him 3 seperate times (2 months each) with the full dose of Gastroguard. He lives on omneprazole (1400mg per day pill form), he has lived on neigh lox, ulcerguard, alfalfa pellets, continous hay, malox by the gallon, low grain rations, organic ulcer cookies from theracell, grazing pasture, out all the time....etc.......got the ulcer thing covered.........

[pixie]

Things I have addressed in the past 3 years....all have seemed to work somewhat for about 30 days but that is it!!!!
Treated for ulcers (see above post) and maintained for ulcers
Injected his hocks
Injected his SI joint
Injected his SI ligament
Blistered his stifles
Injected his back 2x
mesiotherapy on his back
6 shock wave treatments on his back
xrays of his back indicated NO kissing spine
long treatments of methocarbonal
surpass on his back 3x 5 days each
injected his coffin joints 2x (xrays indicate rf has some remoldeling)
injected his navicular bursa (both)
custom fitted 5000 saddle and rechecked every 6 months
had 5 months off this past winter
has been shod religiously every 4-5 weeks with his angles steep
had his shoes pulled off and gone barefoot

I seriously am done.......anyone??????

[pixie]

he has been tested for lime 3x
he lives on adequan
he has had at least 6 chiro adjustments and 2x as many massages

at this point I feel like I need my head examined to be putting so much into this horse so I will address his good points:

he is absolutely rock solid to ride....never spooks and is always quiet and the same even the first ride after the winter off
he is the bravest horse I have ever jumped, has never questioned any jump and he jumps in very good form
he is cute
he's a great size...not too big....not too small
he is kind
he is sane
he is easy to ride

[mbm]

well the only thing left is you. have you looked at how you are handling and riding him?

honestly your post about him not "conforming" to me says a lot.

[buck22]

Things I have addressed in the past 3 years....all have seemed to work somewhat for about 30 days but that is it!!!!
Treated for ulcers (see above post) and maintained for ulcers
Injected his hocks
Injected his SI joint
Injected his SI ligament
Blistered his stifles
Injected his back 2x
mesiotherapy on his back
6 shock wave treatments on his back
xrays of his back indicated NO kissing spine
long treatments of methocarbonal
surpass on his back 3x 5 days each
injected his coffin joints 2x (xrays indicate rf has some remoldeling)
injected his navicular bursa (both)
custom fitted 5000 saddle and rechecked every 6 months
had 5 months off this past winter
has been shod religiously every 4-5 weeks with his angles steep
had his shoes pulled off and gone barefoot

I seriously am done.......anyone??????

oh my goodness, all this and he's not even 7 yet?

from the behavior, is he an orphan? the abuse-like corrections you mention have me wondering too....

[BornToRide]

WOW - that sure is a LOT of stuff you already explored. I know this sounds like a broken record too, but have you ever considered giving him some time off on a grass forage only diet as in all you can eat, supplemented only with a low NSC vit/mineral mix just to see what you'd get? Ideally, have the forage tested and supplement as needed.

Feeding grains, if he gets any, only perpetuates any possible ulcer issues.

[MILOUTE55]

with the "abuse like" comment, I tend to think that your horse doesn't like spending time with you because he has a negative image of you.
He is not scared because you didn't really have an abusive behavior. But he might just not enjoy seeing you around.
You should try spending more time with him, and focusing more on what he does well than on what he doesn't do well.
Reward him when he does make an effot and don't be too tough when he messes up. Spend time grooming or trail riding to re-gain his trust.

I think you've looked at any possible medical treatment, but psychological solution might be the answer here.

Good luck!

Amandine

[ToN Farm]

he is absolutely rock solid to ride....never spooks and is always quiet and the same even the first ride after the winter off
he is the bravest horse I have ever jumped, has never questioned any jump and he jumps in very good form
he is cute
he's a great size...not too big....not too small
he is kind
he is sane
he is easy to ride

I will trade you either on of mine that are charming on the ground, but are not easy to ride. You are lucky. I don't care what they do when I'm not riding them. I can put up with anything for a good ride.

[slc2]

"He's an ulcer horse"

BS. Ulcers actually don't cause every sort of horse behavior everyone ever was concerned about or disliked.

"grinds teeth and goes up and down with his head"

So, you've decided that he has something wrong with him because he grinds his teeth and goes up and down with his head in the cross ties?

You...you're serious?

To be perfectly honest with you, I could completely care less if a horse grinds his teeth or bobs his head up and down in cross ties. If he has to be in cross ties briefly, I consider that just being a horse. I am not going to expect a horse to stand there like a statue. If he feels like doing that why not. I deal with a lot of youngsters and expecting them to stand like a rock is silly.

Too, cross ties suck. Most horses hate them, and most horses spend far too much time standing in cross ties. They get sick of it.

Does the vet say anything is wrong with him? Did you just tell the vet you wanted to try these things because he grinds his teeth and tosses his head up and down in the cross ties? He got all these procedures and meds because he grinds his teeth in the cross ties and goes up and down with hid head?

Is he lame? Is he sore? Has he had xrays?

"what I believed to be physical problems "

Did anyone else believe they were physical problems? Like the vet?

"he is sore"

How do you know?

Horses grind their teeth and bob their heads up and down in the cross ties, usually, because they are restless.

There are two possibilities.

One is that your horse has something physically wrong with him that needs to be treated. Take him to a good vet. Have him gone over. Have xrays done. Find out what's wrong with him. Treat those things specifically, retire him, sell him, or keep him on a program that suits whatever his condition is.

The other possibility is that there is nothing physically wrong with your horse. And he is...

1. A restless sort of horse that doesn't like to be in cross ties
2. Anticipating what comes next, such as the riding

My guess would be that your horse doesn't like cross ties. Tack him up loose in his stall. Put some treats in his feed tub while you groom him and tack him up. Give him something to keep him occupied. Put on the bridle, give one last treat, lead him over to the mounting block, and get on. Problem solved.

"The thing that is interesting is that I really believe he even complains about the pressure the bit puts on his mouth when I ask him to soften or bend or even turn. I really don't get a true feel as he lowers his head just enough to not sustain pressure in my hands"

Riding lessons and a dentist. In all that medical care, no riding lessons or dentists are mentioned. Maybe the horse has had a busted off tooth all this time.

[Bubblehead]

How much turnout does this horse get in a day? If I had all that stuff done to me, I would be really pissy too. It doesn't sound like he gets to be a horse very much. Sorry to sound so judgemental.



Things I have addressed in the past 3 years....all have seemed to work somewhat for about 30 days but that is it!!!!
Treated for ulcers (see above post) and maintained for ulcers
Injected his hocks
Injected his SI joint
Injected his SI ligament
Blistered his stifles
Injected his back 2x
mesiotherapy on his back
6 shock wave treatments on his back
xrays of his back indicated NO kissing spine
long treatments of methocarbonal
surpass on his back 3x 5 days each
injected his coffin joints 2x (xrays indicate rf has some remoldeling)
injected his navicular bursa (both)
custom fitted 5000 saddle and rechecked every 6 months
had 5 months off this past winter
has been shod religiously every 4-5 weeks with his angles steep
had his shoes pulled off and gone barefoot

I seriously am done.......anyone??????

[CJ4ME]

This might not be a popular opinion but perhaps he is just acting like a jerk and he has gotten away with it for so long that now it is habit. Kvetching constantly would get on my nerves and since you have clearly covered all his medical basis (and major kudos to you for that) then perhaps he needs some tough love.

The OTTB that I am riding now was a major PITA. He was herdbound, anxious, fidgity, distracted and annoying. Finally we just got tough on him. When he was being worked in ANY WAY (led, groomed, ridden) I had a basic zero-tolerance policy on BS. No head tossing, no whinneying, no fidgeting, no distracted behavior. I felt awful about it at first because that isn't my style but it worked AMAZINGLY well and so quickly.

Within three days he was quiet, stopped screaming for his friends, stopped being wild and distracted. I mean, like miracle change. I realized he just really needed leadership. Once I took on a firm leadership role he relaxed and was loads better.

Good luck with whatever you try!;)

[twofatponies]

I would also think either he is just slightly off mentally (equivalent of "neurotic" or something like that), in a biological way - just like some people are born with mental quirks.

Or he is insecure from some inconsistencies in handling (some horses are more sensitive to minor - or major - inconsistencies than others).

Has he ever spent time with someone else (a trainer, other owner) and been different?

And on the turnout issue, have you tried 24/7? I have a grumpy, mareish, used-to-be frequently lame and fussy mare who transformed mentally when she was turned out 24/7. She stands out in rain, snow, etc. She naps in the sun. She is very, very sociable with other horses and is so much more pleasant, cheerful in her work, and relaxed (and not lame! k.o.w.) since the change in her turnout three years ago.

[inca]

I have a very quirky horse - some of them are just like that. She used to be almost dangerous when young but 4 months with a no-nonsense trainer and a tougher attitude by me when I got her back fixed that.

Now she does things like fidget while being groomed, paw sometimes when tied and sometimes in the trailer, etc. Every now and then she will even rear in her stall. Unless she is being REALLY bad, I just ignore it. Sometimes I laugh at her and say "It is SO hard to be you - I don't know how you do it!"

She is truly my favorite horse. She is wonderful under saddle, as long as you don't over face her or treat her harshly. She has SO much personality that she makes me laugh almost every day. She is the barn clown.

Now, someone mentioned inconsistent handling. This mare would be a disaster if a bunch of different people handled her and disclipined her differently. That is, if one person let her get away with things and another person smacked the crap out of her for the exact same things, she would become really difficult to handle. She is one that needs to know the rules and needs for the rules to be consistent.

I try to focus on the reasons I love this horse and not the quirky things that are annoying.

She is one horse that I will never sell because she definitely took a long time to bond with me and trust me and she would not do well having her world turned upside down by having a new owner and a new place. (I bred her and raised her and she is mine for life.)

[*JumpIt*]

It may have already been asked or I just missed it, but has his teeth been checked lately?

[pixie]

The thing that has me stumped is how much correction (VERY LOUD verbally and physically) it takes to correct this horse on the ground verses how sensitive he is to any type of pressure put upon him or his body!!!!!!! He seriously complains about every ache and pain and yes it comes out in his performance. He has been trained to show and win at "A" shows in the Hunters....he knows his job.....but does not want to put in the effort when he hurts. For example: he will start missing lead changes (random left or right), his stride becomes short, random tripping, he becomes very hard to put and/or keep on the aids, he palpates sore in the back every day except for 2 months last summer,....there have been lots of signs that his performance suffers.... that is why I address the physical.
This horse is a real hard ass and I have no doubt he is not handled by me or anyone else consistently as hard as he needs to be. The corrections he requires are very hard and nobody wants to do that all the time. I will address boot camp on the ground as well when noone is around!!!!
I am absolutley done pysically fixing him! Basically if he doesn't have an ulcer now, he's going to get one after my boot camp on and off of him. I have trained hundreds of horses and I have never had to resort to hard ass training on them riding wise....but I think this one has me fooled.

[pixie]

Yes to his teeth being done every 6 months under sedation to get any back hooks! Yes to turnout in a group currently from 8:00am til 5:00pm.

He is going to live out 24/7, he is going to shlepp lessons in the afternoon after he gets a training session from me in the morning with a completely different approach. Let's just say I will be carrying a dressage whip....if it's leadership he wants....he's gonna get it!!!!!!

THANK YOU to everyone who responded....this has allowed me to look at this objectively and not emotionally.

[mvp]

I'll assume he's unusually physically sensitive. That makes it hard for a horse to get trained because everyone has "got it wrong" his whole life.

Unfortunately, he does need to learn to tolerate pain. All performance horses do.

When he as a mentally-tough job-- a "quick" demanding ride, but not necessarily hard-- does he put his agenda aside? If so, you have an answer.

This horse whines about this and that because he has enough band-width to do that and whatever you are asking him to do at the same time.

I'd pick my battles and ignore the rest. If he hates the X-ties, whatever.

Since you are "done" ponying up for more vet work, perhaps mentally detach yourself from his Woody Allen hypochondria as well.

[BornToRide]

Unfortunately, he does need to learn to tolerate pain. All performance horses do.

I am sorry but I totally disagree, unless you are suicidal.This is a sure way to get seriously hurt or worst, killed. This causes those stories when you hear the horse flipped over backwards onto the rider.

Horses will explode when not being listened too and if they have a good reason for it, either physically or mentally!

[grayarabpony]

Have you turned him out for 6 months? Sounds like he needs it, with all of the problems he's had.

[silver2]

Sounds like he's not holding up to the work you want him to do. If he were mine I'd do a lot of dressage with him- think of it as horse pilates. The kind of flatwork most hunter riders do is fine for maintaining fitness and basic schooling but it will never build the kind of muscle and power that a good dressage background will. And it won't rehab a horse with a weak back or "abs" or hindend.

There might not be anything you can do about him fussing, some horses are just like that. He may just get bored easily or just be in the habit of talking to you. My dog is that way, if you make her sit and stay she'll complain loudly the entire time.

[pixie]

MVP that was classic.....loved it!!!!!! (Woody Allen Hyperchondriac)....elaborate more if you will...I need clarity for some of your terminology.
Have you had a horse like this? Yes he is a Dutch wrmbl cross and yes to the poster about time off....he had 5 months off this winter.

I do agree the horse has to buck up and suck up some pain! That is my new approach......He's trained enough and obedient enough under saddle now that I think he will submit and I won't fear for my life. That has not always been the case though and with his temper that he has displayed in the past I was not really willing to force it out of him. He has changed this year and seems much more respectful of what I will tollerate. I just need to translate that into his work ethic and the performance I expect out of him.

I agree with the Dressage training and his back was the best when he did that consistently. He does do dressage he just complains about that the most! He was actually in the worst shape after his 5 months off. His back was sore and he showed a small degree of lameness up front on a lunge circle.

thank you everyone!

[mkevent]

Pixie- I think I have your horses twin!
He's also a homebred. As my instructor describes it, he's a "big aggressive horse who thinks his opinion matters" and it is so true. Mine is 3/4 TB and 1/4 Hanoverian.
Part of our issues is his personality, part my personality and part that I'm still trying to figure him out. He is a bit of a jerk on the ground but I love him under saddle. He is the kind of horse that will try to push the envelope his whole life. I am learning to pick my battles with him-if he doesn't stand rock still in the crossties, he can have some body movement-as long as it's not something directed at hurting me-i.e. he can't swing his hindquarters towards me when I'm grooming,etc. He doesn't like to be touched, so I work on petting him, etc just until he relaxes. He makes ugly faces all the time-so I calmly rub him on the forehead until he relaxes. Would he still try to nip me if given the chance? Heck yes!! That's where he gets reprimanded.
Every spring is a challenge under saddle to how hard he has to work(I think it coincides with when my instructor returns from Florida). He's had 5-6 months of subtley taking over the reins of leadership and when the lessons start again, we reestablish who is in the position of power. Once we get over the heated discussion, he becomes a great horse to ride.
I also have mine on UGuard, turnout,etc,etc,etc. The only thing I will add is he wears a Back On Track mesh sheet at least 8 hours per day and I think that does help with the muscle soreness. My guy is blessed with less than perfect conformation-long back and rather straight hind legs so reaching up under himself takes an effort. It's very easy for him to invert so working on different muscle groups while riding probably does contribute to some muscle soreness.
I did think of selling my guy but I have to admit that I do love him and his opinionated personality is forcing me to become a better rider and horseman. I am learning to like the challenge instead of getting frustrated that he's a bit of a difficult horse. It also took quite a while to form a strong partnership with him. When I started him as a two year old, he would rear whenever he didn't like something-he knows not to do that now or I would beat the living **** out of him!
BTW-he's turns 8 next month.
Good luck!!

[grayarabpony]

So is he currently staying consistently pain-free in work?

I too have an opiniated homebred, but he's not nasty at all about work unless he is in pain, which is why I'm asking, again. :)

[bludejavu]

I've owned a few horses like your horse. What you have is a horse that is a basketcase of anxiety. Literally he worries too much. Whether that worry is environmental or whether it's just in his breeding is debatable, but my own worryworts responded quite well to massage therapy and relaxation techniques that I performed myself. The therapy isn't a total fix, but it will give you a measure of control. Surely you've met people who are worriers and every little thing gets them uptight? There are a few horses out there with the same mentality. And yes, they are prime candidates for ulcers unfortunately. But after reading all you've done for him in the past to remedy the problems, I didn't see anything that worked to reach his mind/nerves. I don't recommend massage therapy very often but for his personality type, I think it might be his best hope of having a quality life under saddle.

Also, like others have mentioned here, make sure you aren't adding to his problems with anxiety. Take time to examine how much you expect from him and how you ask him - some horses don't handle high demands well at all. I'm not saying you are at fault - just a stab in the dark guess on this. But definitely find a massage therapist and try a session or two to see if it makes a difference in his anxiety level.

[LarissaL]

I wouldn't be suprised if it's a combination of training and physical issues. The fact you say it takes such tough discipline to get through to him makes me think he REALLY has something to say. Doesn't sound like he takes much discomfort in any other part of his life, so it seems odd he would take it in the form of discipline.

A question on all the treatments he's had - before the injections/therapies/etc, was he actually diagnosed with an issue? Or was he just showing up sore in those spots and was treated? I just got to wondering about that since you said his back was injected twice, but then xrays showed no kissing spines. And what does it mean that he's shod with "his angle steep"? That doesn't sound like a positive thing to me?

I'm sorry you're dealing with so many issues! He sounds like a really tough case, but it's great you've tried so much to get to the bottom of his issues.

[mvp]

I don't have time to defend my claim that professional athletes like horses do need to learn to sublimate pain, that they already do, or that the world-class ones aren't doing that a lot, all the time.

I have a homebred Dutch thing (75%) TB whom I have successfully taught to Man Up. It didn't start that way. He's quiet, smart, self-preserving, gentle and lazy by nature. Around his 10th birthday, when I asked a trainer why he wouldn't exhibit the classy work ethic of a TB or a seasoned WB eq.-horse/machine, she said. "Look. His whole life you told him you cared about his opinion. Now you are changing the rules. You are saying that you don't want to know what the thinks about his job, you just want him to do it." So, I had helped make the whiner. Now I faced the really morally dicey and extremely delicate, high-stakes task of undoing that.

SlackerPrincess went from grinding his teeth when he thought I had asked for just too much under saddle, to never doing that now and even to calling for me when he hears my truck or sees me walking out to his T/O paddock. I know he feels less like a spring chicken than he did during the teeth=grinder era. The key is that he doesn't care now and finds the "package deal" of being my show horse all and all a good one.

I'm going to watch this thread develop before I say more. It will take me a long time to tell you what I did and how that worked for this horse. I can tell you how I "read him" and knew when to push for his increased tolerance and when I backed off. Really, this isn't about putting up with pain so much as putting up a bunch of minor things (some physical, some emotional, some intellectual as in confusion or unpredictablity). I think the OP probably knows enough to use this advice. But I absolutely won't waste my time and burn my reputation for readers who insist that horses should adore every waking minute at the office, or else become beloved, expensive pasture ornaments.

Like human babies, horses don't come out of the womb finding value in straight As or admission to Harvard. That is cultivated for us, and with some very careful, systematic thought and action, the same can be installed in horses.

[Fharoah]

Two things I would consider:

Turn him out for six month vacation, treat him for ulcers for a month and then just let him be a horse. Then start him back slowly and really love him, or let somebody else have him.

If it were me I would try a full body bone scan and see if anything lights up and then treat everything you can. I would really ride him two weeks prior to make sure everything lights up.

Also have you checked his sight and hearing?

Good Luck!

[Kolsch]

I'm curious about the homebred angle. What was the early socialization of these horses like?

[foggybok]

Some interesting thoughts here....

The one thing that concerns me is that the OP has said a couple of times that the horse has pain. If he really is in pain, that needs to be dealt with first and foremost.

On the other hand, he sounds a little like my husbands horse (Paint/TB cross). My husband's horse is my husband's horse because he's really good at that job. Steady as a rock, can go 6 months without a ride and hop on, will follow along down the trail and never bat an eye, all that stuff.... That said, he could never be my horse because he just does NOT have any work ethic. He hates work. He is the laziest horse I've ever owned.

I thought of him when I the OP mentioned she needs to really escalate her signals on the ground. This horse is the same way, and although he'll lighten up if I work on him, it's really in his nature to be this way. I know this by watching him in the pasture. The dominant gelding will try to move him (he is the bottom of the herd). He doesn't want to move, so he'll just stand there. The dominant horse will escalate the signal, and the horse will just stand. I sat there one day watching the dominant horse escalate to biting to try to get him to move, and he just stood there, tolerating the biting rather than bother to move... Perhaps, he thought moving wouldn't stop the biting, or perhaps the biting didn't bother him enough to make moving worthwhile... I suspect the latter based on some other behaviour (like he'd rather plow through cavaletti and jumps and hit every one and knocked by poles, than make the effort to clear them cleanly....)

Either way, he has the same response to signals from his herdmates as he does to signals from his handlers... So I think it's something unique to his personality (and sounds like the OP's horse) Like I said, for me, I can lighten him up, but he's back to dull as can be if someone else is working him...


He really just hates to work. He has NO physical problems, but when asked to do something other than just mosey on down the trail, he will complain (and even that he doesn't do with any energy, he just sort of goes along at a snails pace..). Collect, canter for more than 20 strides, use himself...self carriage....Nope, it is met with complaints the whole time... And yes, I can get him to do whatever I ask, but it isn't fun for either of us... Fortunately he does his main job quite well (carry hubby around).......:). So I basically leave him alone and use him for the thing that he is good at..... Too bad, because he'd be a great horse if he had one ounce of work ethic....... On the other hand, he's sort of priceless at the job I do have him do....:)

He LOVES people and will be the first to come running and follow you anywhere (he's very helpful when fixing fence....or so he thinks...), so it's not the bond he doesn't like, it's the work....


Anyway, the point of this ramble is that maybe the OP has a horse like hubby's...if so, he's probably never going to "like" his work.... So you either deal with his crankiness, or find him another job....

[mvp]

My reformed whiner had a good childhood, I think. Or at least I did what good pros do.

He lived in a small private barn with his mamma for the first four months. He learned to deal with halters, leading, dogs, feet picked up and rasped (I think), clippers (minimally), random people, sponging, gentle brushing, a tad of hosing off, other adult horses. There was nothing special, taxing or invasive, but he saw plenty.

Then he went to a breeding farm with a mare and foal pasture. The people there weaned him at six months in a very intelligent way. After that he lived with fillies and colts of his vintage. Later colts and geldings were separated into their own field. When that group got out of line, a very old, pregnant bitch of a mare was sent in for a few days to put the boys back into line.

He was handled minimally but regularly and even learned to live in an oversized stall for a day or two at a time. He stayed on this farm until the fall of his 3-year-old year when he went to another for 30 days of Ranch Broke training. He then went to his 3-year-old inspection (just in-hand, but a two-day "show"). He came back to the breeding farm to hang for six more months. He went back to the Ranch Broke place for 60 days that turned into 90 because while he never bucked or said "No" in a big way, he didn't seem to accept his job either.

At the end of 90 days, he had done kindergarten well enough-- would tie forever, let anyone tack him up, W-T-C well enough for his ammy mom to do the rest. After that, it was all my fault.

But you could see the beginnings of his basic personality by then. He didn't pick fights with other horses and stayed very cut-free. He clearly protected himself, in part by going along with things even if "underneath" he wasn't entirely happy with the situation. In the big picture, this horse lets things roll off him, but doesn't think he "should have to" stay in a fixed situation like training if he can't make it immediately comfortable. Like the OP's horse, he has opinions about how he should be treated but will not risk hurting himself to really object hard. This may be part of the reason pixie's horse does take hard verbal correction and has gotten as far in life as he has.

In short, this homebred did get the kind of horse socialization any baby could need. I'm a big fan of foal pastures and horses teaching each other how to negotiate.

[Kolsch]

My reformed whiner had a good childhood, I think. Or at least I did what good pros do.

Sounds good to me! I have a chronic complainer homebred as well, but he is not aggressive. I tried to give him the best socialization I could, but have been berated that it wasn't good enough and that's why he became the way he is. My hunch is that he hit the ground this way. He was a bully to his mother, a bully to his "aunt" and received more cuts/scrapes than is typical in large group turnout.

I feel that what he requires more than other horses is for me to be 100% consistent in the response I ask of him, to never let that waver for even a tenth of an inch, and be very quick (and accurate in regard to timing) to praise. Nothing you wouldn't ask of a normal horse, but he requires much more consistency.

What's that old saying? Ask little, expect much and reward often.

[pixie]

So I definately feel like my bootcamp is making an impression. When I went out to get him in turnout he looked kinda "wacked" mentally (lower lip hanging, spacey expression). I let him hand graze for a bit knowing full well that it would set him up for a big mistake that would give me the chance to get after him....(he is very hard to pull off grass then plants his feet and won't move).....so I used the oportunity well and low and behold the whole time I tacked him up and he was on crossties not one tooth was grinded, he did flip his head once but I wouldn't allow that either.
Riding him was alot of work but I had a lot of brilliant moments and no temper tantrums even when I pushed his buttons, in fact his teeth grinding was cut in half. I felt we were done for the day and walked him up to the barn and he got glose to the grass and started to grind away and when I took a hold of his mouth he resisted so we went up and down the driveway walking circles and leg yields til he uncled up. Then I went back into the ring.....he felt amazing! He was light yet on my aids and felt the best I have felt in a while....he even felt extremely sound and well oiled! ......THEN he started screaming while I was riding him...ALOT continuously for the next 5 min straight. I did some small circles and tried to difuse it but it caught me by surprise so I eventually just got off and was done.
ANYONE?????

[ZiggyStardust]

Have you had him tested for DSLD/ESPA? His sensitivity issues and grouchy nature sound like the behavior of my friend's horse who was diagnosed with this degenerative disease. It is a connective tissue disorder, so can affect many parts of the body. She struggled through treating many symptoms of the problem (including problems identified as separate lameness issues) before finally getting a definitive diagnosis, and it finally explained his general discomfort.

[CJ4ME]

Hi OP

I wrote earlier commenting that maybe he was being a bit of a jerk and talking about the bootcamp that worked for my horse.

From your horses response it sounds like it is starting to work for your horse. My horse had a big screaming problem and when he started to whinny for his friends he was turned in a tiny circle and if he was trotting we immediately went into a spiral. The purpose was so he had to pay attention to his feet and concentrate. He is really never allowed to stop paying attention to me. The second I lose his ears or he bitches he gets spiraled or spun so he HAS to pay attention. Now it just takes a little inside leg and wiggle on the reins, but I respond the second I notice I don't have is full attention. It has cut the whinnying by close to 100%.

I really think this is the key because if he is an anxious horse it gives him security of a strong leader and if he is a kvetchy jerk it tells him that YOU are in charge and CUT IT OUT AND PAY ATTENTION.

[mvp]

You got all up in his grill and he was smart enough to comply. The screaming was just a new evasion, the "round three" in your bout that day.

He won't be fixed in one day. It doesn't matter whether you win each damn battle. I do like his creativity, though.

He sounds plenty smart. He sounds like he also knows what you'd like. That's great-- exploit that. When he does something right, instantly quit or do something else. You are obviously smart enough to think of some other "rough edge" of his to polish if you need to leave one for the day.

So training the smart ones who don't want to accept training is a big game of "Warmer/Colder." Both are very important. He sounds as if he only expects "Colder" or punishment when he does something wrong. You need to do that, of course. Pick your battles. Escalate slowly (unless you think he's flipping you the bird-- then immediately cuss him out right back), but de-escalate quickly, too.

This horse will get much better much faster when he discovers "Warmer" in training too. You have to find something he wants and make a deal with him that lets him earn it quickly and easily. He knows a lot and you are willing to do training on the ground, so you have plenty of opportunity to praise him. Since he doesn't like to be touched, it's tougher for him. The nice ways we touch horses don't do if for him. Find something else HE thinks is good.

You should always be looking for a reason to quit for the day. He should also be looking for the one magic right thing he can do to get you to quit.

It doesn't surprise me that he's whining again after a 5 month lay up. Mine doesn't like going back to the gym, either. It's tougher when you have been sitting on the couch than it will be, say, 30 days later. So you have a great window of opportunity to teach him how to accept training here.

Pain or not, I think you will enjoy him more if you teach him how to deal with being trained rather than resenting it or just trying to avoid it.

Best of luck to you guys!

[pixie]

Also thank you to everyone else who has shared a story or made some sugestions! "Dominick" (look at how close his name is to the word dominant! I did not name him) basically boils my blood and has since the moment I paid for him..lol. The homebred angle is very interesting indead and from all accounts I believe he was raised in a small herd on pasture with probably zero to little training til they broke him. I purchased him with about 15 rides on him done very sporatically. Maybe thoroughbreds just don't cross well.

We are definately a personality defunk but my objective when I bought him was to train him, show him and sell him to a kid or adult as a children's/adult hunter. I thought I was buying a very quiet, good natured, good brain, easy going horse with the athletic ability to do his job. If he never had to do anything he IS that horse!! He pretty much resented working for a living right away!
Early on he played me for a fool....it took me two full months to teach him any kind of work ethic and to go forward (painfully slow from my experience). I should have beat it out of him way back then but he had a very disturbing streak which I tread cautiously around not wanting to get myself hurt. His temper was explosive and he would get this possessed look on his face. I am a good trainer and a good rider but not the bravest.

MVP....this horse is so motivated by food it will be easy to find something to praise him with! I am not so sure keeping the sessions short and sweet is the right answer considering his reaction with the screaming when I made him go back to work. It feels to me that that is more avoidance than training him to deal with being trained......???

[mvp]

OMG-- you spent all that money and time on a resale? He owes you.

I hope he has the decency to be pretty, honest, smooth-gaited and affectionate on the ground so that he can relax into that cake-walk of a job as a children's hunter and get out of your barn and wallet.

He will get there and be a fine packer in the end because he is smart and self-preserving, perhaps always looking for the path of least resistance. You just have to install the work ethic. You will hopefully do that so well that you don't need to warn the kid's trainer that this horse will need a "tune up" once in a while. If he's taught the rules now and handled intelligently on the ground for awhile, all this will go away over time.

Everyone said I couldn't enlarge my horse's work ethic, but he was the only one I have, so I had to think hard about how to do that. It's huge now. When he comes out of the stall saying he'd rather not go to work (really, never does this now), but did what I asked, I ignore his opinion. Really, your drill sargent doesn't care what you think about your job, so long as you do it. I'd be neutral or even kind, reminding him that I still liked him. Nothing personal involved in the "assault" of tacking him up. But if he said, "You know what? I don't like this or you either." I got mad. When he said "Oh, sorry-- didn't know I had crossed a line." Or perhaps he was really thinking. "You do suck, but I don't want to die just to make that clear. It's not worth it," I went back to neutral.

Warmbloods who have not been in the Marine Corps seem to go from confused or scared (or tired or sore) to angry much faster than TBs or well-started WBs. Its a really effective defense, you must admit. You just have to systematically nail him for anger. With that option removed, he'll "uncover" his other emotions underneath and you can deal with "I'm willing but confused, scared, whatever."

I'm sure this horse has pissed you off by now. Just remember that the best revenge is getting him trained. He'll teach you so much that you can make others with fabulous work ethics, too.

[kdow]

MVP....this horse is so motivated by food it will be easy to find something to praise him with! I am not so sure keeping the sessions short and sweet is the right answer considering his reaction with the screaming when I made him go back to work. It feels to me that that is more avoidance than training him to deal with being trained......???

Normally I don't go for clicker training, but since you say he's very food motivated, I wonder if that might work with him for some things also. I know some people who've had problem animals that really shaped up with some clicker training, because clicker training makes the rules of the game VERY clear, and challenges the animal to work out what it needs to do to get a reward - so it can help with concentration and focus issues.

(You should contact someone who is a specialist in clicker training, but it's my understanding that it'd be quite useful for something like the standing in cross ties issue. All of the people I know who've done it with horses have mainly done it as an activity for horses on stall rest due to injury, so I don't know how well it can be applied to mounted activities. But it seems like it can work very well for some groundwork issues.)

Just something else to think about for the 'toolbox' anyway. :) Sometimes doing something totally new can really shake things up.

[foggybok]

I thought I was buying a very quiet, good natured, good brain, easy going horse with the athletic ability to do his job. If he never had to do anything he IS that horse!! He pretty much resented working for a living right away!
..............

His temper was explosive and he would get this possessed look on his face.

...................
MVP....this horse is so motivated by food it will be easy to find something to praise him with!

......???\

LOL, you own Buster's twin....

I'm still torn as to whether to bother to try to make my husbands horse a better worker. He does his job and I don't need to show him.... But I think sometimes he should be doing more....

perhaps I should just be grateful the lazy lump can haul around whoever I throw on him without fuss, as long as they don't actually ask him to work.....

[pony89]

Similar to the "Warmer/Colder" concept, my trainer actually got a work ethic installed by appealing to my mare's lazy side. Unwillingness or resistance was met by working a whole lot harder.

On the other hand, and more importantly, when he got a willing attitude and a good try, he would just pull her up and let her sit. He'd just drop the reins, lean back with his hand on her rump, and let her take a little snooze for 1-5 minutes, right in the middle of the ring. (She got to the point where as soon as he rewarded her, she'd immediately cock a hind foot and just droop her head:))

It really got through to her. It took a little while for her to catch on, but she learned that a ride is not a 30-45 minute session to be endured, but rather a collection of moments that might earn her a reward if she does her best. (A collection of moments, by the way, that might last closer to 90 minutes or more if she didn't give in!) She's no dummy - the willing way clearly became the easy way, and "resistance is futile!" She is a completely different horse. She has a try in her now that she never had before, or that I accidentally crushed by not giving her a total reward and release to know that she had done what I wanted.

She was very tense and resistant before I sent her to this trainer. She was anxious, and a big bully on the ground. She had an attitude that she would come after me before I could come after her. He taught me something that might work for your horse. I was having to use the really strong corrections, and it was really adding to her anxiety. She really needed a firm leader, but the aggressive corrections added to her stress and bad attitude.

My trainer taught me to save the corrections for overt actions like nipping. If she is shoving into me when I am trying to groom, ripping a foot away from me while I'm picking it out, moving around while I try to do up her girth, or any number of undesirable behaviors, he taught me to make her work. I take the end of the lead line and swing it at her hindquarters and make her yield them around and around and around. She has to back up, sidepass, lunge in a small circle, whatever I say until she gets that willing, compliant look. Then I offer the opportunity to stand quietly while I finish picking her feet, tightening her girth, etc.

It takes all the conflict away. I have no investment in whether she chooses to do what I say, or work really hard and then do what I say. But it never ends until she does what I say, we just don't fight about it anymore. She knows it's the only easy way out, and after months of consistency, she doesn't do a whole lot of testing anymore. She is 100% more pleasant, and I don't feel like a huge jerk for (ineffectively) manhandling my horse.

[twofatponies]

Similar to the "Warmer/Colder" concept, my trainer actually got a work ethic installed by appealing to my mare's lazy side. Unwillingness or resistance was met by working a whole lot harder.

On the other hand, and more importantly, when he got a willing attitude and a good try, he would just pull her up and let her sit. He'd just drop the reins, lean back with his hand on her rump, and let her take a little snooze for 1-5 minutes, right in the middle of the ring. (She got to the point where as soon as he rewarded her, she'd immediately cock a hind foot and just droop her head:))
...

This worked wonders on my mare who's original attitude was that whatever we asked she should try to do it as fast as possible. She was super impatient and defensive, always expecting someone to keep getting after her to do more more more. We really exaggerated the reward like you describe, so that if, for example, she finally got a beautiful couple of strides of canter, whoa...and take a big break. First learning something like leg yielding - one step - big break. Then two steps, big break. She got it, and she started trying harder and learning faster. She didn't lack a work ethic, per se, but she tended to be really shut down and not listen well, and the exaggerated rewarding really helped her pay more attention and be more cooperative.

[pixie]

OMG-- you spent all that money and time on a resale? He owes you.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! MY SENTIMENTS INDEAD!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope he has the decency to be pretty, honest, smooth-gaited and affectionate on the ground so that he can relax into that cake-walk of a job as a children's hunter and get out of your barn and wallet.

I am amazed at your intellect......THANK GOD and it's the reason I hung in for so long...... amazingly enough HE DOES have the decency to be ALL THE ABOVE!

He will get there and be a fine packer in the end because he is smart and self-preserving, perhaps always looking for the path of least resistance. You just have to install the work ethic. You will hopefully do that so well that you don't need to warn the kid's trainer that this horse will need a "tune up" once in a while. If he's taught the rules now and handled intelligently on the ground for awhile, all this will go away over time.

Funny, I labeled/thought of him early on to be "not the brightest bulb on the tree"....I guess he heard me and has been trying to prove me wrong ever since!!!!!!!...... and my anger towards him clouded my ability to look at him any differently.

Everyone said I couldn't enlarge my horse's work ethic, but he was the only one I have, so I had to think hard about how to do that. It's huge now. When he comes out of the stall saying he'd rather not go to work (really, never does this now), but did what I asked, I ignore his opinion. Really, your drill sargent doesn't care what you think about your job, so long as you do it. I'd be neutral or even kind, reminding him that I still liked him. Nothing personal involved in the "assault" of tacking him up. But if he said, "You know what? I don't like this or you either." I got mad. When he said "Oh, sorry-- didn't know I had crossed a line." Or perhaps he was really thinking. "You do suck, but I don't want to die just to make that clear. It's not worth it," I went back to neutral.

I feel like I have up until now been ignoring this horse's opinion (except trying to fix things) but he definantely tries to act or behave the right way ONLY after a major correction.

Warmbloods who have not been in the Marine Corps seem to go from confused or scared (or tired or sore) to angry much faster than TBs or well-started WBs. Its a really effective defense, you must admit. You just have to systematically nail him for anger. With that option removed, he'll "uncover" his other emotions underneath and you can deal with "I'm willing but confused, scared, whatever."

I honestly never analized him in this way ....I don't even think I knew he was displaying anger.....I NEVER thought of it this way because he never pins his ears back EVER!!! Plus my frustration towards him "kept" me from "uncovering" my own abilities to listen to him effectively!!!!!! WOW

I'm sure this horse has pissed you off by now. Just remember that the best revenge is getting him trained. He'll teach you so much that you can make others with fabulous work ethics, too.

Ya think?????
Funny thing is I just got a 3 1/2 year old HOMEBRED warmblood in to train that has been through 2 trainers already and broke 2 of her owner's fingers while displaying a temper tantrum on the lunge!!!!!!! Hows that for SWEEEEET!
I have had her for 3 months and I LOVE training and riding her. I am not emotionally involved with her so it is easy for me to read her and I recognize and react correctly to her temper because of my experience with "Dominick"....which is really strange.....I guess I just couldn't train my own horse....LOL!


THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK!

[pixie]

I'll definately educate myself on the principles of clicker training and the other "tricks" that have worked for others. I will need lots of "tools" and ideas to poole from with this horse's attitude so he doesn't get one up on me again!
I have alot of re-training ahead of me which is always 3x as much work as getting it right the first time!
Luckily he is past the rebellious teenager attitude which was unbelievable stressful for me and he will soon accept the fact that he has to work for a living without too much more DRAMA.
I am even starting to get excited about the fact that I can still get out from underneath him and still turn a profit!!! I kind of let go of that possibility along time ago.
He IS a very nice horse and a sound one and an easy ride.

[mvp]

First, I'm so glad pixie, pony89 and twofatponies spoke up. This discussion and their ideas about getting inside the head of the whiner is quite useful.

When I spoke about these horses going from some emotion like confused, tired or even sore to Angry faster than would a classy TB, I spoke too soon.

What they seem to do is go from "This is hard (or might be)" to "I donwanna" to a deep existential question: "Really, why do we have to do this in the first place? If there is no meaning in the universe, then who cares if I use my hind end well or not?"

Notice that you (humans) can become existentialist philosophers when A) They feel trapped in a situation they don't like and can't modify, and also B) They aren't spending every brain-cell or available calorie just trying to survive.

I think warmbloods are in this situation. They are plenty smart and self-preserving, but (inconveniently) told what to do. Existential questions are about "stepping out" of the training process (or your society) and questioning it's basis and values--It's a luxury of the smart, idle and pissed off.

The ideal TB with a huge work ethic never ask why you are asking. (He may, of course, "check out" by getting too fried to think and participate.) The warmblood just takes a mental break from the task at hand by asking why.

So I think they key is to reengage the intelligent critic in his "society." You can do that with "stick"-- making it so bad to question or say no that he tries to find a way to please you. Can can do that with "carrot" where he finds enough rewards involved in training that he stays committed-- a good middle-class capitalist dedicated to his boring job in order to glorify country, Western Culture and God!

The OPs horse, who doesn't put his ears back but does grind his teeth, or my young one, who didn't buck during his first 90 days but did sull up alot, is not angry, but a disengaging existentialist.

[kookicat]

I'm kinda disturbed by this thread. Can't pinpoint why exactly.

Maybe he's just not the right horse for you Pixie?

[mbm]

maybe the depth of human emotion/thinking/etc that many here are attaching to a non-human animal?

maybe the fact that it appears that the trainer isn't looking to her/himself & instead is blaming the horse?

maybe the whole idea of "bootcamp" for a horse?

or the idea of a horse "owing" someone something?

[sid]

mbm - ditto. I haven't even read the replies.

The title of the post speaks in human terms.

Horses don't "complain". They only tell you when they are not comfortable ...whether it be physically, emotionally (sep. anxiety) or have not been trained judiciously (someone has been less than a leader for them, and which most if not all horses seek). It's our job and ethical responsibility as owners to make sure we are giving them all of the above..physical health, emotional health (for the species' needs) and leadership.

They just tell you when you're not doing something you should be doing that, in their non-human mind, you should be for them as a species that ultimately results in trust and partnership.

It's not "complaining"...it's saying you don't know what you are doing.and I'm insecure with you. :lol:

Sounds like the OP is taking the horse's antics way too humanly "personal"...and only in human terms, needing more from the horse and forgetting what the horse needs from them in the way horses think. Didn't articulate this well, but you get the gist.

[slc2]

I agree. The interpretations of what the horse is thinking and why he does things...scares me. Horses just aren't like this. NONE of them are. This is anthropomorphosizing.

[grayarabpony]

Why do I think pixie might end up getting hurt?

[Coppers mom]

I agree with the above three posts. This is just really, really disturbing.

I would take him back to just hacking. He's sore because something in your program isn't working, whether it be how you brought him back into work, or the type of work you're doing now, it's not working. Take him out on the trails and just wander up and down the hills with no pressure. This will take the stress out of riding, and hopefully allow his muscles to recover from whatever's going on. I would do this for a solid month, or until he starts acting like he's miserable and sore all the time.

When he's finally happy with just toddling around, slowly bring him back into work. Gently start trotting, and slowly start work in the arena. Trail ride every other day to remind him that riding isn't all work and no fun. Remember to go slow so that his fitness has time to grow so that he can stay comfortable. At this time, don't focus on his head and being straight and how his ears are twitching and everything else. Just one thing at a time. At this point, be happy if he's going forward off your leg, or stops when you ask him, or even goes through the corner well. Keep things low key, simple, and doable. That's how you build work ethic. By making him feel like it's ok to try, not just "conform".

You don't need massive amounts of injections, just a careful conditioning program that'll bring him back into shape without causing him pain. There are a lot of websites out there that will help you build a fitness plan to bring him back into work without making him sore and cranky. www.horsehero.com (http://www.horsehero.com), www.nickernetwork.com (http://www.nickernetwork.com), and Chronicle's Eventing forum are good places to get information for bringing a horse back into work, and carefully (comfortably) increasing his fitness level.

[cyberbay]

You know, if you can, avoid the food as reward route. It just takes their attention off of the handler and puts their thoughts on their food or their soon-to-arrive treat. If you do want a food reward, maybe you could give him a carrot in his stall (in feed tub, not out of your hand) when you're done with him at the end of the ride/groom time. My horses can walk down the aisle with carrots right under their noses but do not try to take them b/c they feel secure and safe with the information that the carrot is coming to them once back in the stall and once they are being polite.

Also, another way to discern what to accept in terms of behavior and what isn't allowed in his interaction with you is safety. Such as: My horse(s) can't move their feet -- as in, deciding that they're now going to put their rump on the left side of the aisle instead of the right side. They don't move until I tell them. This is big: not moving feet until I tell them. O'wise, they've 'taken over' and are not focussing on me. 2) They cannot nip, but with horses that are oral they are shown how to be oral in an acceptable way. Lips touching, licking are all OK for me, but NO teeth. I also watch this carefully each and every time. All other expression is allowed, as long as it's safe for both of us.

Once safety is covered, make your boundaries and then show the horse how to maintain them, not just through constant reprimands, but show them what is OK to do. O'wise, it's like those stupid parents you see who wait till their kid is doing something wrong and then shriek at them for doing it. And the kid is flummoxed -- they have no idea what they did wrong and no idea what they should be doing. And, the result? The kid tunes out the parent over time, b/c the parent is making NO sense and not giving them any useable choices and then the 'unruly child' emerges -- and mostly it was b/c the parent was too self-involved to act in the kid's best interest.

It all comes down to the handler being a model for the horse. If you're attentive, he'll be attentive; if you're consistent and security-making, he will relax and be more following; if you're accepting, he's accepting.

[pixie]

Just to clarify things: putting human emotions on the horse is done in a fun and lighthearted way...nothing more, nothing less. Fact is this is one hard horse to train and understand. Unless you have experienced things from my perspective (which I tried to as much as possible through several separate blogs) you really have no idea how much this horse has gotton under my skin and others that have had similar encounters. This is from a financial as well as an emotional standpoint! We are just making light of the situation that causes much stress.
If you bothered to read the whole post you would see that I take full responsibility for enabeling this horse to "train" me and that I also intend to take full responsibility to re-train him with a different perspective which I have discovered through sharing experiences with others who have horses with difficult personalities. Yes, horses do have personalities!
I actually really didn't learn anything I hadn't already known (if you read every post you would have discovered that). What I did learn was that my anger towards my horse clouded my ability to train him properly and I consistently did not hold up my end of the bargain to be the leader he needed BECAUSE the leadership he needs is EXHUASTING and quite disturbing basically.

Of course I'm not going to just punish him. I have trained hundreds of horses successfully and I have never not gotten to the bottom of ANY one of them. I would also add that 99 percent of the horses I have experienced fixing act out or have poor performance issues because of physical soreness. That is the direction I go to first to help the horse out. This one because I own him is draining me financially as well as emotionally and I just needed to write things out to find clarity in the situation which I have done.

Riding them out of the ring is an awesome idea if that is what you have access to. Unfortunately for this horse he lives where land is at a premium near the city and he will need to find away to adapt like everyone else.

[mbm]

ok, fair enough.

but honestly. if he is *that* difficult - he is telling you something loud and clear. and it isn't escalate the reprimands until he learns to totally hide how he is feeling.

the idea would be the use the feedback he is giving you to figure out how to work with him in a manner that he approves of (ie he relaxes and isnt so unhappy on the ground).

i do believe in being a fair leader - which includes listening to my horses - not making them submit to the point of destroying their voice.

i know this all sounds so california, but honestly its the only way to get a real working relationship where both parties are "happy"

and i say all of this with some experience with this kind of thing behind me. :)

[grayarabpony]

I have an orphan who is a TB/ warmblood cross. He's a lot like a horse-shaped 5-year-old kid. He can have a temper, and a 16 hand horse throwing a temper tantrum can be a scary thing. However, he has learned that even though I am much smaller, I can control things that he can't, and if he does anything aggressive it will hurt him more than it hurts me.

The thing that's bugging me about this thread: if your horse is palpating sore every day, what is he doing in ring work? Is that the case? True, you can train a horse to do work when he's in chronic pain, but it's really hard to do.

You can train this horse even on the ground. We humans, who believe ourselves to be so smart, are often not very clear with punishment and reward. Be very clear and consistent. With some horses you can get by with ignoring antics on the ground. Not with my horse, and perhaps not with your horse either. My horse takes anything allowed as, "Oh, I can do this, maybe I can do this other thing too". So I got out a mane comb and whopped him every time he started wiggling everywhere, or pulled a foot away, or started trying to chew the throatlatch or noseband whenever the bridle went on. Using my hand wouldn't have done any good. I would have just hurt my hand. Now he relaxes and halfway sleeps when he's groomed and tacked up. If a horse really can't stand still when his back is curried I'd worry he was sore, but that's a different story...

[Coppers mom]

Pixie, it's not the way you're dealing with the stress on here, it's the way you're dealing with him that is so disturbing. He's constantly sore, so you keep working and injecting. He bounces his head, so you're convinced there's something wrong with him. You said yourself you have to become almost abusive to handle him. From your posts, I'm getting that you and your managment are the problem, not the horse.

[mvp]

If you came late, please read the OP's pages of posts and responses.

It seems to me that she knows a lot about the inside and outside of this horse. The OP is also up front about "her part in it" and ready to take responsibility and change. She just came here with details and a little frustration to vent in a harmless way.

BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if this horse, after a winter of R&R was having a tough time getting back into work. He's probably a little unfit, both physically- and mentally unfit.

To all of you deeply opposed to anthropomorphism, but do want horses to be happy: How you can do that without making an effort to impute thought, emotion, even motive and desire to them. If you can train yours by treating them like a Skinner Box, then have at it. I just think it works a little better to give them more credit.

[mbm]

it wouldn't surprise me if this horse, after a winter of R&R was having a tough time getting back into work. He's probably a little unfit, both physically- and mentally unfit.

but if the horse is unfit our job is to work them in a manner that they can succeed and get more fit. if the work makes them sore and cranky - you dont escalate the reprimands to get them to shut up , you rethink your traning schedule.

and, in the end if the trainer cant make any headway - the best thing to do would be to see how the horse responds to someone else. because maybe it is all just a personality conflict.

i give the OP credit for seeing that she was letting her emotions get the best of her. but sometimes the best way to win is to step out of the game.

(btw: hundreds of horses? - that would be over 10 horses/year for over 10 years.... so i guess doable? maybe i am thinking of dressage training where training 100s of horses would be spectacular indeed)

[pixie]

Ok....let me try to explain this again! This horse ACTS sore nomatter where you touch him!!!!! He doesn't like to be touched! He has led me to believe that his performance issues are soreness issues which I tried VERY hard to fix. His back soreness is due to the fact that he has week stomache muscles and not the strongest hind end I have ever seen. His belly is huge! He needs to use his stomache muscles through Dressage work to strengthen his back. He doesn't sink down when I get on him. In fact he doesn't even flinch....but if I palpate his back he reacts....it's just him and his personality.
He's no more sore than I am and I can work for a living! He has played me for a fool because I am sensitive to his demeanor and wouldn't push him to work through things because (A) I DID believe he was sore and (B) His temper was not something I wanted to cross because from what he displayed on the ground (rearing straight up and striking) I knew that he could easily become provoked to do this and I wanted to protect that from EVER happening under saddle which I did manage to do. He has NEVER reared up under saddle.
His rearing up on the ground was IMO a serious problem and I always addressed it as one. BUT, it wasn't until last summer that I got so angry at him for rearing that my correction got out of control and I really layed into him harshly. I have never seen the rear again after that episode and he had plenty of oportunity. In fact, he is weirdly calm and subdued after he gets a strong correction.
I really don't feel that I am riding a sore horse anymore just one that comes out a bit stiff and can absolutely try harder in his work ethic!

[mbm]

Ok....let me try to explain this again! This horse ACTS sore nomatter where you touch him!!!!! He doesn't like to be touched! He has led me to believe that his performance issues are soreness issues which I tried VERY hard to fix. His back soreness is due to the fact that he has week stomache muscles and not the strongest hind end I have ever seen. His belly is huge! He needs to use his stomache muscles through Dressage work to strengthen his back. He doesn't sink down when I get on him. In fact he doesn't even flinch....but if I palpate his back he reacts....it's just him and his personality.
He's no more sore than I am and I can work for a living! He has played me for a fool because I am sensitive to his demeanor and wouldn't push him to work through things because (A) I DID believe he was sore and (B) His temper was not something I wanted to cross because from what he displayed on the ground (rearing straight up and striking) I knew that he could easily become provoked to do this and I wanted to protect that from EVER happening under saddle which I did manage to do. He has NEVER reared up under saddle.
His rearing up on the ground was IMO a serious problem and I always addressed it as one. BUT, it wasn't until last summer that I got so angry at him for rearing that my correction got out of control and I really layed into him harshly. I have never seen the rear again after that episode and he had plenty of oportunity. In fact, he is weirdly calm and subdued after he gets a strong correction.
I really don't feel that I am riding a sore horse anymore just one that comes out a bit stiff and can absolutely try harder in his work ethic!


you know, it isnt his fault that he has weak muscles. he isnt "testing you" by being weak or sensitive. it is again up to us as trainers to work our horses in an intelligent manner so they can respond as we wish.

and if you are getting so angry at him that you are beating on him - this is a serious problem. and you wonder why he is " weirdly calm and subdued" after you give him a "strong correction"?

maybe - just maybe you are in over your head. or, maybe you and he just dont mix. in any case..... good luck. i hope that you find a way to work with him and i hope neither one of you get hurt.

eta: i wanted to ask so he acts sore no matter where you touch him so you assume that it is an act? and since you have not been able to "fix" the soreness you think he made it all up?

[Coppers mom]

Ditto mbm.

Your program isn't working. He's not picking around and trying to trick you, he doesn't need to get over it. You're not doing something right. It's fine, it happens ALL the time, each horse is an individual. But don't try to blow it off as him just needing an attitude adjustment. Something's wrong, and you as the trainer need to fix it, not beat him into submission. You can either A) Go back to the beginning, build him up slowly and correctly, and make him more comfortable (see my first post), or B) Find someone else to do it for you.

Like I said, he doesn't need all kinds of injections or expensive treatments, he doesn't need beatings. He needs someone to take him back to the very beginning, and build his fitness with empathy and an understanding of how the body works.

[mvp]

FWIW I knew a chestnut colt who really didn't want to be touched with anything but a cloth diaper, not even your hand, maybe a cactus cloth if he was itchy.

He was sensitive physically and mentally (Hanoverian x Racing QH hothead mare). He also worried, it seemed to me. He'd do a job, but would be tense and obedient. He did learn new things, but it was very easy to get him worried again if the ritual changed. Life was just harder for this "sensitive soul" than for other horses.

The sad thing about the horse that gets calm after a "too big" correction is that he hasn't learned to say, "OK, just tell me what you want. I'm listening now." with less. I have made the mistake (and it is) of being very nice to horses like this for too long. Sooner or later, they make a dangerous mistake like rearing, in part because I didn't say "No" before it came to that.

[Fharoah]

I think turn him out for six month holiday, then restart him slow and correct in a pausitive way! Also make it fun, add trails and hills fields, dressage days, jumping days.

[kookicat]

Agree with MBM and Copper's Mom.

Honestly, I think you should be looking for a new home for this horse. You dislike him, and he's not a fan of you. Leads me to the question of - why bother? Why not find new partners for both of you?

Did you get basic bloodwork done on this horse before you started with everything else? Checked his mineral levels? He could be low in Selenium which would make him body sore.

[Fharoah]

Rereading your origional posts maybe you should just except that he is quirky on the ground and wonderful to ride, if I have that correct:) I had this hunter/eq warmblood who was a total jerk on the ground would bite, lounge at people from his stall, pin his ears all he was lovely to ride, sort, rhythmic, top four in the hacks, perfect changes, could jump 3.6 foot very well, very handsome. I did not like him and sold him to a friend of mine who adores him. He is still an jerk on the ground, but she doesn't care he is fun and fancy to ride! I talk to her all the time, he has a great 'forever" home.

[Coppers mom]

The sad thing about the horse that gets calm after a "too big" correction is that he hasn't learned to say, "OK, just tell me what you want. I'm listening now." with less. I have made the mistake (and it is) of being very nice to horses like this for too long. Sooner or later, they make a dangerous mistake like rearing, in part because I didn't say "No" before it came to that.
WHAT?! I'm sorry, but this doesn't even make sense.

The horse isn't saying "Ok, I'm listening now" in response to a massive correction because the handler failed to teach him to listen to less, he's shutting down, just like a beaten child does. Explosions don't come from being nice to a horse like this for too long, they come from being fed up with being handled so roughly.

My trainer was GIVEN a horse that was handled just this way. Injected everything, worked him hard every day, and beat him when he didn't perform. When he started acting out, well, they beat him some more. The previous owners words were literally "Just beat him when he does X". I say X because she literally said to beat him if he nibbled the lead, didn't lead the way we wanted, anything really. He reared, bucked, plunged, flipped his head, everyone in the area was afraid to get on him (and we have some pretty BNT's). What did he need? Empathy. Anger has no place in horse training.

I simply don't understand dismissing soreness. My own horse is sensitive, and doesn't like brushing or loving that much. But there's a difference between being sensitive (tail swishing, pinning ears, etc), and being sore (flinching away). That needs to be addressed, not ignored.

[pixie]

I don't like this feeling that I need to defend myself. Have you people been reading through this whole post?

To those of you that feel I am not conditioning my horse correctly: He just didn't start to complain about working, he has been complaining about it since day one. I did managed to get him trained and conditioned enough that he could win over jumps at "A" shows......and he was still complaining then!
His complaining just hightened after his 5 month sebatical not lessoned so to those of you that suggest time off.....I don't think that was a smart choice for him. All he did was get a bigger belly (weaker back) and lesser tollerance!
I don't abuse my horse. I have on two occasions ruffed him up a bit too much for my taste. It was with those two occations that I saw the MOST change!!!!
Some of you posters must be Dressage Trainers (and I love Dressage so no offense) where the horse submits to training and uncles up under restricting contact. In Hunter land the horse needs to be obedient and free of attitude while on soft rein contact (which he does great!). It is only when I put pressure on him through more contact that he objects. Just like in any other part of his life....reread older posts. He objects to pressure of any type.
I also already admit that WE have a personality conflict. My objective is too get his back strong enough and his brain on board to be that horse that I believe he can be so that he can make some kid really happy being their show horse and him and I can part ways in a productive way.
I am not going to give him away. I have invested too much in him. I will find away to train him. Funny thing is I already know how but I have been so frustrated with the situation I couldn't think clearly.

ummm..I'm pretty sure I had plenty of EMPATHY for this horse over the past 3 years.....did you read all the things I did for him to make his life easier on him?? Do you even know how much it costs to put your horse on gastroguard for six months???? I'm pretty sure I spent 7 thousand dollars just on ulcer medication alone....and I did this because I gave a s*** how he felt! I feel pretty confident that the EMPATHY card DIDN'T WORK!!!!!!

[grayarabpony]

Horses aren't that weak, unless there's a neurological problem or injury. If you wait for a horse to sink when you get on him his back is in really bad shape.

Sounds like the horse still wasn't sound when you brought him back. What does your vet say?

[Coppers mom]

Pixie, I've read this whole thread. What I've gotten out of it is that basically, you've spent a ton of money with the vet, gotten into arguments, and he's sore. Oh, and that you think something's wrong because he bounces his head and grinds his teeth in the cross ties.

What I find odd is that you keep insisting that he's just being a jerk, rather than acknowledging that maybe he isn't as fit as you think. Horses aren't meant to carry things on their back, it's hard for them. Some have a harder time coming back into work than others. This is the exact reason why you have to start back slowly and think of the horse. Each one is an individual, and will work into fitness differently. If his back is weak, work it. But don't try and strengthen it and continue riding and jumping like normal. It's hard, he needs you to take a step back and let him develop his muscles.

I've competed in pretty much everything (eventing to Training, jumpers to High Juniors, and Dressage up to 3rd level), and I used to ride ponies for a barn that did the A's. I know how the different disciplines need to go, but every horse needs to be brought into condition slowly, no matter the job. I get the feeling you're not giving him any consideration. From your posts, it sounds like he's actually being really, really good, despite being in pain, and you're not looking at the whole picture. I think the anger from your personality clashes is clouding your judgement in this case. Please, take a step back and think of how a horse's body works.

[pixie]

copper's mom,
I have been bringing him back slowly. He only trotted for four weeks and he was happy as a clam. He started to seem less happy when we started cantering....so back in came the vet and I backed off cantering. We addressed the fact that his feet hurt by first injecting his coffin joints and when after 30 days he started complaining again we injected his navicular bursa. My vet was insistant on cantering to build up his back so he SLOWLY got increased cantering sessions and so far so good. He feels very sound just still palpates backsore. I haven't jumped him thusfar and FYI jumping strengthens the back.
He is ready to work in intervals on the aids....he has to to strengthen his back...this is where the complaining starts! I have pretty much concluded that he complains when more pressure is put upon him whether it be physical or mental is of no matter to me at this point. He needs to learn to work harder at his job!

[CJ4ME]

I am not sure why people seem to think that if a horse is being a jerk it is because WE humans are doing something wrong and if we just asked correctly or truly understood then the horse would willingly cooperate? I just don't believe this. Horses have all kinds of personalities and some are just strong willed, irritable or fussy. It isn't something the OP is doing. In fact, she has bent over backwards for this horse. I don't know that he is in pain when EVERYTHING seems to bother him.

I sincerely think he has gotten away with bad behavior on the ground and so he isn't even completely clear on WHAT is expected of him. We only ask our horses to work an hour a day. Expecting them to behave and do their job politely is not too much to ask. Reprimanding him when he is misbehaving is one way of communicating what you want. Horses do it to each other all the time.

Some horses just take a disapproving throat clearing and some take a stronger correction. This horse takes a stronger correction to 'get it'. Soon, he will start to get it and the corrections can be much subtler.

I am not advocating beating this horse (and the OP sounds like a great, caring owner and not the tiniest bit abusive) just getting the message across to him clearly so he knows his limits.

I think he will be HAPPIER knowing you are in charge, knowing his limits and knowing the rules.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=pixie;4100644]copper's mom,
I have been bringing him back slowly. He only trotted for four weeks and he was happy as a clam. He started to seem less happy when we started cantering....so back in came the vet and I backed off cantering. We addressed the fact that his feet hurt by first injecting his coffin joints and when after 30 days he started complaining again we injected his navicular bursa. My vet was insistant on cantering to build up his back so he SLOWLY got increased cantering sessions and so far so good. He feels very sound just still palpates backsore. I haven't jumped him thusfar and FYI jumping strengthens the back.
He is ready to work in intervals on the aids....he has to to strengthen his back...this is where the complaining starts! I have pretty much concluded that he complains when more pressure is put upon him whether it be physical or mental is of no matter to me at this point. He needs to learn to work harder at his job![/QUOTE

As I mentioned once before you have spent alot of money on this horse by the sounds of it. If you have the funds why not give this horse the benefit of the dought and run a bone scan, if nothing lits up you probablly have your awncer!

[slc2]

That is NOT the opposite of anthropomorphosizing.

Anthropomorphosizing means interpreting the horse's actions as if he were a HUMAN.

Not anthropomorphosizing, actually, is interpreting the horse's actions as if he were a HORSE.

The attack on those suggesting anthropomorphosizing is going on, is ALWAYS to accuse that if one does not anthropomorphosize, one is abusive, insensitive and uncaring, not to say ignorant or outright vicious.

I treat my horses like horses - the sensitive, aware, SENTIENT, emotional, straightforward, horsey-behaving HORSE.

It is the height of ignorance to suggest that a horse has emotions because he's like a human - he has emotions because he's a horse. He has the kind of emotions a HORSE has, in situations HORSES have those emotions. He loves simple things - good foot, gentle treatment, consideration, comfort, and the company of his own kind.

A horse is exquisitely sensitive to everything his handlers and riders do, to EVERYTHING that happens in his environment, to everything the horses and other animals are doing around him. A horse can sense lightning, thunderstorms, unsure footing, he can stay on his feet when a human would fall flat on his face, he can smell another horse from miles away, find water in a desert, and react in a split second to the slightest indication of threat, he has an absolutely infallible memory, and he is a part of an incredibly complex social structure. He tells you EVERYTHING about himself - constantly. He forms a bond with humans despite how incredibly unlike him humans are, and he learns an immense amount about those humans, and interacts with his rider in the most complex, subtle and incredible fashion.

He doesn't need to be human like to have value. He has value, and deserves our respect and care because he is what he is - the most beautiful and incredible animal God ever made.

I don't interpret bobbing the head and grinding the teeth in the cross ties as COMPLAINING. Horses don't complain. They simply behave as they do according to how the handling, diet, and treatment they are getting, MAKES them feel.

I interpret it as the horse is moving around, maybe he don't like being tied up! Or maybe I don't ride him often enough and he's restless on short work, or maybe, he is anticipating his ride and wants me to get a move on! Or maybe, maybe there is something about that ride that makes him nervous and tense! Maybe that training needs to change!

If they seem sore or in pain, and it does not yield to sensible home remedies in a few days, I get a vet, I don't guess, and I don't give ANY medical treatment unless a VERY qualified professional - a VETERINARIAN, not someone selling nostrums, has confirmed that it is the most appropriate, effective and intelligent way of handling the issue. And if it is invasive, I get TWO opinions from TWO very qualifited profesional VETERINARIANS.

And I do NOT decide that if a horse bobs his head and grinds his teeth on the cross ties, that he needs invasive medical treatment! I take him out of the cross ties, considering that I've never seen a horse that ENJOYED cross ties, and about 99% of them bob their heads and grind their teeth in the cross ties!

[grayarabpony]

Oh brother. I will officially say at this point that I'm sorry for the horse.

[mvp]

I saw this potential trainwreck of overstatement and misunderstanding a mile back. I'm getting out now. It wasn't the OP's fault.

I did the most "anthropomorphizing" of anyone. I think it was the "Existential WB" post that set people off.

I may have raised hackles way before with the statement that top performance horses do sublimate pain. I stand by this. Not everyone will agree that it's a good idea. Not every trainer will admit this is true.

But witness the GP jumpers that walk into the ring and immediately pick up the canter. Why do you think that is? And they still go around, jump the (big) jumps and don't get thrown out by stewards. They also get extraordinary care before and after.

All things being equal, it's easier to be a show horse if you are a bit stoic. In our economy, where many tough horses given away seem to hold little value, it may always not be safe to be one of these with a "rep" for having some really big, unsolvable problem.

Anyway, praise-- for the OP who has tried hard-- and blame where they are due. Figuring out what is physical, mental, horse and rider is tough!

To the OP: If he palpates sore in the back, his top line and feels ok, you might throw one. last. (big) wad of cash at a good vet clinic for a bone scan. You might calculate the costs of feeding him, say, three more months versus getting a definitive answer. Does a bone scan sound like the stone unturned?

[pixie]

Thanks cj4me and mvp and others that see what I see and also to those of you with different opinions....it's what makes the world go round! There is something about the horse that makes everyone have an opinion....this is the lure of it all.....they are completely mystical creatures!

Nope, definately no bone scan.....for what?.... to find out that he has an orange spot on say his right elbow?! He feels sound, infact I bet his navicular bursas have bugged him for a while and that is the true cause of his back pain. He just never limped or looked off on a circle until this spring after his break. His back pain is secondary to something else I am pretty confident in that and am banking on it being caudal heel pain. It will take a bit for his back to recover if that is what has been going on. Backs are the most expensive maintanence issues with horses and they recover so slowly and need repeated treatments. His memory of it hurting is also a factor. I see no harm in insisting he anti up a bit.

I am however going to give him a selenium supplement to the poster that mentioned that.....something small to try that could make a big difference!

[LarissaL]

copper's mom,
I have been bringing him back slowly. He only trotted for four weeks and he was happy as a clam. He started to seem less happy when we started cantering....so back in came the vet and I backed off cantering. We addressed the fact that his feet hurt by first injecting his coffin joints and when after 30 days he started complaining again we injected his navicular bursa. My vet was insistant on cantering to build up his back so he SLOWLY got increased cantering sessions and so far so good. He feels very sound just still palpates backsore. I haven't jumped him thusfar and FYI jumping strengthens the back.


Is your vet actually doing DIAGNOSTICS? It doesn't sound to me, and perhaps it's the way it's written, that your vet knows what is wrong with your horse. Only that he hurts in certain areas. There is plenty of detail about where he has been injected, but for what reason? In the above case, what was WRONG with the coffin bone? What was WRONG with the navicular bursa? Were xrays or ultrasound done? Was the farriery also addressed?

I believe this is the reason people are suggesting a bone scan. It will highlight (at least moreso) the SOURCE of soreness. It can show you where inflammation begins and not just where the horse is expressing it.

I think this will be an important part of getting to the bottom of your horse's issues. There is no need to do 5+ injections on ONE horse. It is far more likely that there are a couple of issues causing body-wide soreness than that there are 5+ issues separately causing problems. Best of luck!

[foxrider]

I've read all of the posts, gone back and re-read several to get this disturbing tale straight and in the end I come away with much more empathy for the horse than the owner. There were some very intelligent, interesting and valid statements ( as well as some rather strange ones ) but there is one feeling that is inescapable and keeps coming back to me: for this owner, it's not about the horse as an individual, despite all of the vet visits, medication and Chiropractic treatments ; it's about what she can achieve or gain through him.

This horse is just not a good match for this rider or the job she is asking him to do. I think there is something very wrong with this guy and no matter how much money the OP keeps reminding us she's spent on him, or how many " boot camps " he goes through, she may never know what that something is.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=pixie;4100891]Thanks cj4me and mvp and others that see what I see and also to those of you with different opinions....it's what makes the world go round! There is something about the horse that makes everyone have an opinion....this is the lure of it all.....they are completely mystical creatures!

Nope, definately no bone scan.....for what?.... to find out that he has an orange spot on say his right elbow?! He feels sound, infact I bet his navicular bursas have bugged him for a while and that is the true cause of his back pain. He just never limped or looked off on a circle until this spring after his break. His back pain is secondary to something else I am pretty confident in that and am banking on it being caudal heel pain. It will take a bit for his back to recover if that is what has been going on. Backs are the most expensive maintanence issues with horses and they recover so slowly and need repeated treatments. His memory of it hurting is also a factor. I see no harm in insisting he anti up a bit.


If his elbow lights up you can inject it! Maybe you are missing something and one more treatment he will be feeling good! Don't forget these injections do ware off may only last six months.

[matryoshka]

I'll chime in about my own experience with a great, athletic horse. I think he got sick of me and what I was asking of him. I wanted to do trail (distance), and I think he got bored after a couple of years. My choices were to force him to do what I want simply because I really liked him, or I could give him an opportunity to do something he might find more interesting with somebody else. I chose the latter. I miss him terribly, but he just seemed less and less happy here. I liked the horse enough to change disciplines myself to keep him interested, but I'm physically incapable of jumping these days (my bad hip will not hold up to that kind of riding).

Sometimes a horse/rider combo just isn't a good match. I've gotten other horses in here who had problems elsewhere, and I never noticed a problem at all. In those cases, perhaps my setup is exactly what made those horses feel content. I've had others who hated it here, and found them other homes.

I don't coddle bad behavior, but I look for the cause. Once you have ruled out the physical, ya gotta look elsewhere. Or put up with it.

[pixie]

Foxrider, You are not that off base....but that does not make me a bad person. This horse was purchased as a business investment to be resold. I WANT him to go to someone that will LOVE him for what he is. I am trying to get him strong enough so that he can find his NEW mommy.
However, I have never been confident that I have gotton to the bottom of his temper. I have in the past thought he could potentially become a very dangerous horse to someone who ignores or pushes his buttons the wrong way.
It is only NOW that I feel I can finish training this temper out of him and instill the work ethic into him to be a productive competitive partner for someone. Yes, my frustration lies in the fact that I may never get out of him what I put into him. So be it. I have accepted that. My priority now is to train that backtalk out of him (he has demonstrated to me what HE NEEDS to be trained) so that I can be 100 percent confident that he will NEVER display that temper of his to anyone. I feel that this is the most responsible and kindest thing to do for this horse for any kind of happy future for him.
I will continue to update his progress and I welcome any productive input as I go along.

[mvp]

How about a couple of "down home" experiments?

Have you tried the bute test? Dose him with plenty for about 4 days such that you can chemically take pain out of the equation and see what he says? He may have enough memory that he continues to behave a little bit badly, but you may see enough of a difference to let you know if pain is part of his problem. My vets have suggested this as a place to start. I'm not just making it up.

You might do the same with Robaxin if you think he has some muscle tension problems in his back.

I agree that he might be sore in his back as a result of some pain involving bone and joints lower down.

Best of luck to you and let us know what works. Perhaps some other horse somewhere else in cyberspace will benefit as the result of this thread!

[grayarabpony]

The problem with horses is that they are often a money pit. :( It's a hard, cold fact of horse life.

Horses do need to mind -- it's essential for everyone's safety -- but you need to listen to them too. That sounds simple and trite, but working with a horse is a 2-way street. Sometimes a horse is just being an a$$, but a lot of the time he's trying to tell you something.

[mbm]

My priority now is to train that backtalk out of him (he has demonstrated to me what HE NEEDS to be trained) so that I can be 100 percent confident that he will NEVER display that temper of his to anyone.

ok, so what this *sounds* like is that you are going to make him shut up and stop telling you something is wrong.

pretty much what is going to happen is that you may very well teach him to shove his feelings deep down - but one day maybe with the little kid you sell him too - he will no longer be able to contain the rage/pain what ever it is - and someone is going to get hurt.

listen to your horse. for whatever reasons what you are doing is not working.

try the bute for 4 days - this is a very good simple test to see if he has pain.

in general horses dont act as he does without reason. your job as his trainer is to work him in a manner that solves his "problem" not just teach him to disregard his own feelings.

ps - did the vet examine him? i dont know any vet that will just willy -nilly inject joints.

pps - i have 2 OTTBs who came to me griding their teeth , tossing their heads and being extremely skin sensitive. while the sensitivity has gotten slightly better (i brush them with very soft brushes or just wash them) the head tossing, teeth griding etc etc has slowly disappeared. i handle each one differently - one i just ignore, the other needed a bit of ground work lessons on respect. but in the end i mostly ignore it and by doing that they are learning it doenst profit them to do these behaviors.

anyway, good luck.

[foxrider]

Foxrider, You are not that off base....but that does not make me a bad person. This horse was purchased as a business investment to be resold. I WANT him to go to someone that will LOVE him for what he is. I am trying to get him strong enough so that he can find his NEW mommy.
However, I have never been confident that I have gotton to the bottom of his temper. I have in the past thought he could potentially become a very dangerous horse to someone who ignores or pushes his buttons the wrong way.
It is only NOW that I feel I can finish training this temper out of him and instill the work ethic into him to be a productive competitive partner for someone. Yes, my frustration lies in the fact that I may never get out of him what I put into him. So be it. I have accepted that. My priority now is to train that backtalk out of him (he has demonstrated to me what HE NEEDS to be trained) so that I can be 100 percent confident that he will NEVER display that temper of his to anyone. I feel that this is the most responsible and kindest thing to do for this horse for any kind of happy future for him.
I will continue to update his progress and I welcome any productive input as I go along.
Pixie, I'm not suggesting you're a " bad person " at all and I'm sorry if you understood my comments that way. On a positive note, I will say that I respect your commitment to selling a horse that is safe; I've know many unethical owners that couldn't care less about the safety of the next owner or their kids, as long as they got ride of the horse.

[Coppers mom]

I typed out this huge post last night, and it got deleted when I went to submit it :mad: Here it goes again... haha

If you're positive you've brought him along slowly, try these things:


Check your position. You may not realize if you're following too roughly (or not enough) at the canter, or sitting too deeply. Video him, and move around until you find something that looks and feels comfortable for him. Is there anyone he seems to really like riding him? Try to mirror what they do. With the OTTB's, I usually start out off their backs (they aren't strong at all), and as they get fitter, graduate to a 3-point, and eventually sitting fully.
How are you warming up and cooling down? Take him out on the trail for the first and last 10-15 minutes of the ride. This will allow him to loosen up beforehand, and cool down completely afterwards. Keep walking until he's completely cool so that blood can return to his back and tissues like normal. Taking the saddle off and hand walking allows this to happen more quickly. If you finish riding and he's not sweaty, give him a good thorough grooming. Pay special attention to his back, currying as gently as he wants you to (you may need to use a face curry if he's really touchy) until he leans into the curry. If he did get sweaty, use luke warm-warm water to help the muscles relax, and use liniment if he worked hard (remember, his idea of hard work is harder than yours, haha). Something I've found nifty is to have a fly spray bottle with water and liniment mixed together, so you can just spray his back whether he gets hosed or not.
Double check that you're working him correctly, as both correct and incorrect work will make him sore. If he's tense in the back, you're not going to be able to follow him as easily. Maybe he gets tense, you start plopping, he gets tenser, and so on. Have a dressage trainer help you work him long and low and correctly on the bit. To build his back up, you'll need to get him a bit rounder than you'd necessarily want in the hunters. Do stuff in hand to make him more supple and strengthen his back. When you get off after a ride, back him straight up for 20 or so feet. Scratch him on either side of his tail head and make him scooch his butt under, and tickle his belly so that his back comes up. To stretch his back, make him reach to each side and between his legs with a carrot. (Stretching should be done after the muscles are warm). Only put him away once he's completely stretched, cooled and curried. If you can put him out in the pasture so he can wander and roll, that's great, but a stall isn't going to kill him.
Have you drawn a blood panel on him? My area is deficient in Vitamin E and Selenium, and I've noticed that the horses get sore if they aren't supplemented with this. A race trainer I know swears by giving them Magnesium, and I've noticed it works for horses in areas that aren't deficient in Vit. E and Sel. If you look on SmartPak, there's a supplement called Vit. E-Sel-Mag that I really like. It covers all three bases, is cheap, and I've seen good results with it. Even if your area isn't supposed to lack these nutrients, your hay may be grown in an area that is. Have your hay tested at your local Ag. Center, and check the labels on the feed bag.
Maybe he doesn't need injections and chiropractors and all kinds of craziness. Maybe it really is simply his back, so work with that. Gentle currying and spraying liniment frequently has made a difference for my horses. I also had one delicate flower who could only have a freshly laundered saddle pad on his back, or his skin would get sore and he'd get flinchy, no matter how clean he and the pad were. If your saddle's custom, you don't want anything to change the fit. I've had success with the ThinLine pads with touchy horses. Try buting him for a couple days, or there's a prescription muscle relaxer called Robaxin that dressage trainers around here swear by. Try trail riding every other day to give him a rest while gently keeping him working by going up and down hill.
As far as his attitude, try some ground work, or natural horsemanship. I'm not saying to whack him with a stick or bounce a ball off of him, that's silly. But the basic, common sense type of stuff can help with a pushy horse.

I just know I'm forgetting something...

[twofatponies]

Coppers mom, I think you have some good suggestions.

I used Robaxin once to evaluate my mare with the vet - used it for a few days to determine if her way of going was related to muscle tension or due to something else.

If the horse isn't enthusiastic about his work, mixing things up to keep it more interesting might help. I also like rotating outdoor/trail work with indoor/ring work. Walking hills really strengthens a horse and walking on the naturally uneven terrain helps with balance and coordination.

[kookicat]

ummm..I'm pretty sure I had plenty of EMPATHY for this horse over the past 3 years.....did you read all the things I did for him to make his life easier on him?? Do you even know how much it costs to put your horse on gastroguard for six months???? I'm pretty sure I spent 7 thousand dollars just on ulcer medication alone....and I did this because I gave a s*** how he felt! I feel pretty confident that the EMPATHY card DIDN'T WORK!!!!!!

Empathy isn't about spending money. I'm sure you have spent a lot on this horse, but that doesn't mean you have empathy for him.


empathy em·pa·thy (ěm'pə-thē)
n.

Direct identification with, understanding of, and vicarious experience of another person's situation, feelings, and motives.
The projection of one's own feelings or emotional state onto an object or animal.You don't seem to care that he might be sore or hurting. Your main aim is to beat the signs that something's wrong out of him and sell him on.

How do you train him? In a typical day, what do you do with him? What is he fed on? How much turnout time does he get, and is he out with other horses? How is he shod? Could there be something there causing him pain?

You mentioned heel pain in another post- why aren't you addressing that? Have you had bloods pulled on him? Have you had him tested for lyme disease?

I would stop riding him at all until you've had a vet out to look at him. Not inject anything, but to give him a good check up. Pull bloods and run them. Have him tested for lyme. If that comes back clear, then start with short rides, in a straight line, on a loose contact. No tight circles for the first month. Work him long and low so he learns to relax under saddle.

Then gradually introduce 'school work'. Ask him for a couple of easy movements to start with, praise him when he does them. You have to set him up for sucess.

[Coppers mom]

Oooh Pixie. :no:

[Fharoah]

I was reading about ultrasound guided back injections, to make the horse comfortable while strenghthening there back. I don't think that would be to expensive and it might help? Just a thought:)

[kookicat]

I was reading about ultrasound guided back injections, to make the horse comfortable while strenghthening there back. I don't think that would be to expensive and it might help? Just a thought:)

IMO, the last thing this horse needs is more injections.

[Fharoah]

IMO, the last thing this horse needs is more injections.

I am not a big fan of inject everything either but if it makes the horse more comfortable and happier doing his job, why not?

[bascher]

To chime in quickly..it is certainly not a good idea to ignore what your horse is trying to tell you. My old horse all of a sudden started being VERY cranky He wasn't lame, didn't look unhappy, nothing, except he was extremely cranky. Vets originally couldn't find anything wrong, we took him to New Bolton, had bone scans, etc. So we treated it like a behavioral problem for a time. Then when that didn't work, we decided that maybe something more serious was wrong and he was manifesting the pain through being cranky, and lo and behold, he had severe navicular changes. So that was why he was cranky, he was trying to tell us that he was in pain, but his way of telling us wasn't through the normal signs of being lame, etc. So if we had tried to just beat him through it, ignored the symptoms, and made sure he was never cranky again, he would have eventually broken down completely. Because we listened to him and realized that his behavioral changes were more than just an attitude problem to make people mad, he is now enjoying a happy retirement rather than being forced to be in pain because someone though he was just doing it to spite them.

[Fharoah]

To chime in quickly..it is certainly not a good idea to ignore what your horse is trying to tell you. My old horse all of a sudden started being VERY cranky He wasn't lame, didn't look unhappy, nothing, except he was extremely cranky. Vets originally couldn't find anything wrong, we took him to New Bolton, had bone scans, etc. So we treated it like a behavioral problem for a time. Then when that didn't work, we decided that maybe something more serious was wrong and he was manifesting the pain through being cranky, and lo and behold, he had severe navicular changes. So that was why he was cranky, he was trying to tell us that he was in pain, but his way of telling us wasn't through the normal signs of being lame, etc. So if we had tried to just beat him through it, ignored the symptoms, and made sure he was never cranky again, he would have eventually broken down completely. Because we listened to him and realized that his behavioral changes were more than just an attitude problem to make people mad, he is now enjoying a happy retirement rather than being forced to be in pain because someone though he was just doing it to spite them.


Did he respond to hoof testers?

[bascher]

Did he respond to hoof testers?

It's been quite some time since this originally happened, so I'm going to need to remember...I have an absolutely horrible memory (I need an embarassed smily icon right about now lol).

[mkevent]

Pixie-just a thought-would you be less frustrated/angry with this horse if he weren't a resale prospect?
Having had a few resale prospects go not the way I intended, I understand the frustration aspect-especially when you have lots of money invested in a horse that has the "goods" to be quite competitive in your discipline. Horses are a bad investment.period. Ask anyone who breeds racehorses. They can tell you that you can have incredible ability but not heart-and the horse just doesn't want to run. You can't force a horse to love its job.
That being said, some horses are just plain cranky-I have one-he doesn't like being touched and he's quite sensitive about it. We work on that daily. He does have a good work ethic, though-but I try really hard to keep his routine varied-ride him in different areas, alternate flat/jump schools, trail ride(I have to trailer him out to do this so I can relate to your issue) etc. I keep his schools short so I don't drill him.
Maybe this horse just isn't going to be the investment you wanted him to be and he's telling you so. I think the fact that you have so much wrapped up in him and you don't want to throw in the towel is what is making you both crazy. I had a horse like this-tried to sell him, he was a tough ride and I eventually gave him to a horse rescue. Apparently the new owner loves him and they click. Once you let go of the notion that you have to recoup your financial losses on a horse, the decisions of what to do are alot easier.
This kind of thing even happens to pros-they're just better at getting out of a situation that's not working faster than amateurs are-don't ask me how I know!!
Good luck.

[sidepasser]

Question: you say the horse bobs his head and grinds his teeth in cross ties.

Have you tried just a straight tie with this boy? Or perhaps no tie, like a ground tie?
Some horses HATE cross ties and to express that, they do as you say this horse does..grind teeth, bob head, paw, move from side to side.

The "confinement" of cross ties cause some horses to get anxious, quirky, pissed off, shut down, etc. and make the actual ride a pain in the butt. In other words, when the cross ties go on, the horse carries over the anxiety or whatever into the actual ride..it's a no win situation for everyone because (a) horse is pissed off, anxious, whatever about the cross ties; (b) you've corrected him/ignored it, whatever and now are in likely a "mood",
sets up the rest of the event for argument, tenseness, anxiousness, etc.

I might be wrong, but if it were my horse (a) I'd stop the cross ties. Heck why use them at all if the horse will stand single tied or ground tied quietly? Maybe throw a haybag into the mix so that grooming, picking feet, tacking up has a positive connotation. I would even change where I groomed and tacked up for awhile just to see if I can elicit a more positive response from the horse. I have one horse that hates being groomed/tacked in the stall, so she gets groomed/tacked in the aisleway without tying at all, I drape the lead over her withers and tell her to "stand", she stands and I groom and she falls asleep. In the stall, she's a nervous wreck about it, fidgets, paws, gets wild eyed. I don't know why the horse does that, but she does and has since I owned her. I could have picked at her for it, instead I changed the routine and now I have a happier horse for it and I'm not spending time correcting a horse for something that I doubt will change in the next ten years. It took me a few weeks to teach the "stand" command, but now we are much happier and her expression is brighter.

I have one horse that likes tacking and grooming in the aisle but only facing towards the outside doors..weird..so I let her face in that direction, why not? I could force her to turn her butt to the outside doors and make her nervous, but what purpose would it serve except to aggravate a nice mare and make me crazy. Point here is: you've done all the physical stuff, perhaps part of this problem is not physical but something simple that can be part of why the physical stuff is occuring.

Maybe something so simple as this sort of change will (a) make horse happier, less anxious and tense and (b) make the ride go more pleasant.

You say you can't do a "trail" ride type thing due to where you are located. Can you haul out with a friend who has a dead calm trail horse and just let the horse be a horse for a day, see how he responds? You can still school on a trail ride..and it is more fun (unless you hate that sort of thing, then I guess not). You could change up the schooling routine, lots of walking over ground poles, then caveletti work to build up his back. Seems to work well for my long backed/weak backed TWH, she looks like a different gal now after doing that sort of work. Much more muscled on the top line that before. I started slow, and have kept if "fun" for her, mixing it in with her regular dressage work. Gives her a mental break I think from the "circles, serpentines, spirals, etc.".

[loshad]

At first I thought this was a case of "Munchausen by pony," but the more I read, the more disturbing I find this situation. This is an exceptionally bad horse-rider match. OP, if you have disliked the horse the entire time you have owned him (per an earlier post), you are not the trainer he needs. You need to either find him a trainer who does like him and doesn't need to abuse, ahem, give him "loud" corrections or cut your losses entirely and donate him to a vet program or someone who will be able to handle him properly. From what you've described, this is going to end up being very, very expensive for someone who knows what they are doing to fix.

The horse is trying to tell you something and you are not listening. You appear to be a bad match -- there's no shame in that. Move the horse along before one of you gets hurt.

[SaturdayNightLive]

OP - you sound slightly abusive.

[pixie]

Thanks for all the responses! Most questions that were asked can be answered throughout the post. This horse is cared for and attended to like no other.
Currently his crosstie issues are completely gone. He hasn't ground his teeth in almost a week on them! When I graze him he walks off the grass like a gentleman about every third day....he still needs a tune-up but it is not a harsh one.
I am still trying to figure out a completely different riding program for him so I am experimenting at this point. He now walks all the way out to the ring without stopping at all before I get on and his teeth grinding is cut down to about a third of the time! I have mixed up every ride so I am not sure yet what will work for him long term. I have been agressive and demanding with his complying and I have hopped off after 10 min.
He is way more forward then he has ever been which is probably a combo of his feet feeling better as well as a dressage whip on board. I have since taken away the dressage whip and hold a crop.
He seems really happy to be around me now and is trying harder for me under saddle! I am cautious to reward him for one corner of a circle done right as opposed to only rewarding him when he gave me a whole circle on the aids.
I am understanding that he NEEDS validation with very itsy baby steps....painfully slower than any other horse I have encountered!
His general body language seems more proud. Whether he's on the ties or I am leading him he is carrying a higher neck carriage and a more alert and attentive stance.
I have added treats to the mix which make him very happy and now he greats me with a winney! I have tried the stand still reward and the hop off immediately reward which don't seem to give him as big a delight as the treats.
I have also stopped palpating his back every time I groom him. I think at this point he would palpate sore even if he wasn't....just because!

Anyway, If you respond to this post try to remember that I know this horse and his tricky personality (not saying that I understand it completely) better than anyone. I also feel that he is very sound right now and the issue at hand is really him stepping up to bat and myself as his Trainer to find ways to get through to him.

[mbm]

hi pixie - glad to hear you are having some success! good job!

i wanted to highlight one comment you made because i think it is the root of the issue, and possibly the way to a solution .

You have throughout this thread commented in a manner that leads me to believe you think this horse has some degree responsibility for his actions and perhaps even that he does what he does knowingly to get back at you etc.. your latest comment was that he needs to step up to bat .

i think this is really where you are having trouble. if you were to change your outlook you may find a more productive solution to working this horse.

as a horse his only responsibility is to be a horse. i would say that *you* need to step up to bat and find ways to get this horse happily working for you in a manner you want. it sounds like you are on the right path, but honestly - until you understand that it is you that has the responsibility here and not him things will go awry.

i have a hard time articulating what i am feeling here. but if you were to change the entire conversation to put you in place of him i think you will get my drift.

if he is misbehaving it is your issue - not his. he is just being a horse and responding to you.

[AnotherRound]

Wow, sounds like the classic ulcer horse. Oh, gee. Was that already suggested? Sorry to belabor a point obviously taken...

[kookicat]

hi pixie - glad to hear you are having some success! good job!

i wanted to highlight one comment you made because i think it is the root of the issue, and possibly the way to a solution .

You have throughout this thread commented in a manner that leads me to believe you think this horse has some degree responsibility for his actions and perhaps even that he does what he does knowingly to get back at you etc.. your latest comment was that he needs to step up to bat .

i think this is really where you are having trouble. if you were to change your outlook you may find a more productive solution to working this horse.

as a horse his only responsibility is to be a horse. i would say that *you* need to step up to bat and find ways to get this horse happily working for you in a manner you want. it sounds like you are on the right path, but honestly - until you understand that it is you that has the responsibility here and not him things will go awry.

i have a hard time articulating what i am feeling here. but if you were to change the entire conversation to put you in place of him i think you will get my drift.

if he is misbehaving it is your issue - not his. he is just being a horse and responding to you.


^^ :yes::yes:

[bascher]

Did he respond to hoof testers?

No he didn't, unfortunately.

[CJ4ME]

:yes: I am so glad it is working for you. I found exactly the same thing. My fusspot horse REALLY responded to clear, consistent authority (not ABUSE) and direction, coupled with spot-on rewards--> he responded so quickly it was startling. He is 1000 times better now, a real pleasure, calm, happy, hard working during work time and he is even better behaved in pasture.

Dogs, kids, horses EVERYONE does better knowing what is expected of them and knowing their boundaries.

Congratulations on your progress.

[pixie]

Believe it or not I am actually enjoying this horse now! I seemed to have found a way to comunicate with him by listening and taking advice from alot of you that responded to this thread......so a big THANK YOU!
It was a lot of little changes that made the difference. I have found a way to bond with him through treats and they have become my best training reward for him. He doesn't seem to be overly annoying looking for them and doesn't beg or get obnoxious about them. He gets one when I greet him, one when he walks into the training ring and one when I am done schooling him. For that one he turns his head around and he gets it while I am on him. He doesn't ask for anymore just the one.
This has all been very amazing to me as I have never used treats to train before. They always got a soft good or a nice gentle pat. This horse is thriving and in fact I have started to teach lessons with him and he is very happy to do that. He has been very complying and he has given me no reason to "tune him up" concerning his ground manners.
My vet was out Wednesday and she said although he still palpated a bit sore on a couple of areas on his back he was remarkably improved. She gave him a chiro adjustment and the next day I rode him he felt like a million bucks! His teeth grinding has cut down to about 4x in a whole ride! My vet gave him a good long stare when she was done and I could tell she saw that his demeaner has changed and she then commented how happy he was when he felt good!

[mkevent]

So happy to hear!!
If used judiciously, treats can be a great training tool!!
I think the grumpy horses do make us better horsemen/women because they do give us immediate feedback and the need to be adaptive in our training methods!
Sometimes with my grumpy guy my trainer needs point out that he is not the enemy-and I don't realize that I'm being tougher on him than he needs-he's just that sensitive.
The only thing I'd add is to give verbal praise as you're giving the treat so he has good associations with verbal praise, too.
Congrats!

[Carol Ames]

A comlete course of TTOUCH bodywork!p

[sid]

Great news...POSITIVE reinforcement can do a world of good, no? I'm not a big treat giver, but in this case your horse needed some praise that he won't tune out.

I'll bet your vet could see the changes in his eye, not just his demeanor. Sounds like he's finally relaxing and stopped fretting about getting hammered for doing the wrong thing, because you are relaxing too.;)

Good for you!