When the saddle just won't stay put!

[upnoverfarm]

A friend of mine is having a very hard time getting her saddle to stay off her mares shoulders. This mare is a VERY big mover and though she doesn't have a huge wither it should be enough to keep the saddle back. My friend has tried different girths, different saddles, different pads and ways of padding, and even a foregirth that just got pushed up with the saddle and left horrible rubs on the mare. I know its hard to diagnose a situation without actually seeing what happens but wanted to tap into the wealth of knowledge here and see if anyone had any other options she could try. Thanks in advance.

[sublimequine]

Sounds like the saddle just doesn't fit, period. That's only if I had to guess, though. If there's THAT much of an issue with it moving around, then it probably doesn't fit.

[BeaSting]

How about a crupper? I used one on a swaybacked gelding I used to ride and it worked beautifully. I don't know if you can show in one, though, so that may be a concern.

[upnoverfarm]

Thats the thing she's tried MANY different saddles, had saddle fitters out and "custom" fit the horse (even though they didn't have a "custom" saddle made for her) The crupper is a different idea but she'd need to make sure it was legal and that it was comfortable for the mare. Thanks!

[merrygoround]

Having dealt with a horse with the same problem, I feel that a custom saddle may be the only answer.

The thought that makes one cringe is that, after spending all that money, the same problem is still there.

[Catmando]

The first thing to address is where the billets fall in relation to the girth and the horse's girth heart. Even if a saddle fits correctly, if the horse has a forward girth heart, once you girth up and start riding, the girth move to the heart and will tow the saddle forward.
The second thing to address is the overall front fit since a saddle wanting to travel forward is a sign of a saddle being too narrow. Using a crupper on an ill fitting saddle can become punishment in its own.
A saddle whose' panels and overall tree shape that do not contour to the horses back, espcially one that tends to rock, can also creep forward. I strongly suggest that you work with a qualified fitter.

[J-Lu]

I agree in that your friend may need to explore more options before going the crupper route.

My horse is similar in build and I found that she really needs to be ridden in a saddle with a point billet (where the front billet is attached to the front of the tree through the knee-roll area), and a cut-back or at least very straight-flap saddle to give shoulder freedom. I also found that riding with a contoured neoprene pad between the saddle and the pad kept the saddle from creeping up the pad. in other words, MOST saddles (even super expensive ones) don't fit her and she was a prime candidate for a custom saddle but only from certain manufacturers who had models that were cut back and had point billets. Black country and Hennig were two models that fit my horse very well due to their specific design. ANd I found that the rolled neoprene wintec elastic girth didn't slide up as much as some leather girths.

I also talked with alot of saddle fitters - expecially the bigger named custom saddle people at horse shows - and tried to find the commonality in what they were advising me about saddle types. Most of the good ones really said the same things to me.

Of course, riding the horse "up" in the shoulders helps alot, too.

I'd suggest that your friend really explore cut-back or straight saddles with point billets (as expensive as a Hennig or as cheap as a Wintec Isabell). The right saddle and a good fitter can do wonders with even the most oddly-shaped horses!

[mvp]

You might also try "sticking the saddle to her back" with a damp chamois, Nunn Finer rubber pad or those blue mesh gel squares (meant for cooling legs). I'd start with the blue things; sorry, don't have the name. Each of these options will cost less than $20 to try and may end up being part of even a more expensive saddling solution.

[mp]

she doesn't have a huge wither it should be enough to keep the saddle back.

Withers aren't supposed to keep saddles back. If the saddle is slipping forward, it isn't sitting on the horse's back properly. IOW, it doesn't fit. No crupper or pad will fix that.

Sorry, no advice to give. I have a hard to fit horse, too, and trialed 20+ saddles before I found someone who could fit him. She needs to find someone who knows what they're doing.

[JB]

The first thing to address is where the billets fall in relation to the girth and the horse's girth heart. Even if a saddle fits correctly, if the horse has a forward girth heart, once you girth up and start riding, the girth move to the heart and will tow the saddle forward.
The second thing to address is the overall front fit since a saddle wanting to travel forward is a sign of a saddle being too narrow. Using a crupper on an ill fitting saddle can become punishment in its own.
A saddle whose' panels and overall tree shape that do not contour to the horses back, espcially one that tends to rock, can also creep forward. I strongly suggest that you work with a qualified fitter.

Strongly agree here. Nothing pulls a saddle forward like a forward girth groove and billets set far back.

Too narrow can go either way, I've seen, forward or back, depends on the rest of the horse's shape. Narrower shoulders would tend to allow it to move forward, where wide shoulders would tend to move it back.

If you'd like some better educated suggestions, you should take some pictures so we can see. Side, 3/4 front, and behind, clearly showing fully how the saddle sits on the horse. The side and front shots need to show at the least the whole shoulder and barrel, if not the full horse. The horse should be standing squarely, on a flat, level surface. No pad, use a girth :)

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Try a Custom Saddlery saddle (well, of course one that fits her otherwise, too). Their billets are self-adjusting, and it's the only saddle that stays put on my horse, he has the same problem (especially since he's assymertical, his right shoulder is quite a bit further forward, so a lot of saddles just keep sliding half way over his left). It also happens to be the only kind of saddle he goes well in (the prince and the pea thing...)

[Eclectic Horseman]

A crupper is a very cheap thing to try. I have used them on pigeon chested, mutton withered youngsters that have low set on necks, are traveling croup high or have other developmental issues. A crupper keeps the saddle from migrating forward over the scapulas and up the neck.

Cruppers work and have been used in classical dressage training forever. I am quite sure that I showed a young Arab that I was training in a crupper not so long ago.

[Bogey2]

like BeaSting, we were forced to use a crupper on one of my nieces horses. This was after many saddle fittings etc. She just did not have the withers required for a big bodied gal to keep the saddle back. She was a lovely mover!

[Ambrey]

I was having that problem, but a well fitting saddle with a point billet and anatomic girth have fixed it. It's strangely more likely to slide a little back now rather than up on his shoulder (or I wonder if he finally grew into his rump?).

[Camp Girl]

I was having that problem, but a well fitting saddle with a point billet and anatomic girth have fixed it. It's strangely more likely to slide a little back now rather than up on his shoulder (or I wonder if he finally grew into his rump?).

Agree with Ambrey on the point billet and having an anatomic girth. Also be careful not to over pad.

[cuatx55]

agree..don't overpad. I use just a thinline pad with cotton square. Also a sheepskin girth worked much better then the neoprene.

[buck22]

was just reading up on teh grand gilbert and thought of this thread...
http://www.trumbullmtn.com/Saddle_%20pages/Dressage/Passier.htm

op, read the rider's comment, might be helpful.

[mickeydoodle]

a friend of mine had the same problem, when she was in England visiting she found a wonderful gel pad that goes under the cloth pad that kept the saddle exactly in place and was fine on the horses back. It is a rectangle of honey colored really soft floppy gel (think Jello) with large air holes. I do not know the maker, but some of the people here are from the UK, and they might recognizes this pad.

[Margaret Freeman]

Cruppers are legal. And the Nunn Finer non-slip pad works great.

[J-Lu]

Cruppers are legal. And the Nunn Finer non-slip pad works great.

Yes, this is the neoprene pad I was refering to (cuatx). *for me* it worked better than sheepskin and it is a lot thinner. I placed it between my pad and the saddle rather than directly on the horse's back.

[upnoverfarm]

Wow! What great ideas! Thank you all so much! I know she has tried the little blue pads and different variations on the same. She's tried so many different saddle from different makers and different fitters (spending much more money than she probably should have on some of those guys) She's got two new saddles coming in to try and I think one of them is a point billet design. She's used every kind of girth you can imagine on every combination of saddle (though I think this may be the first point billet but I haven't been there for all the fittings so not sure) She did consider a crupper at one time but I don't think she ever actually tried it because she worried about it just holding an improper fitting saddle in place. She really just wants to find a saddle or saddle fitter that can fit her horse. The mare has a wonderful attitude and is quite successful at training and first level with scores in the mid 70's but her owner wants to be certain she's comfortable. Thank you all again for the great info and keep it coming if you think of anything else. I'll keep you updated on how the "impossible to fit mare" challenge is going. :)

[fry]

The curved girth from County cure my exact same problem.

[bthatasitmay]

I could not even get a good canter with my mare (Hanovarian) because of saddle slippage. This is what has ultimately worked for my mare. A Passier Optimum saddle (has a point billet and wide gullet), a Passier elastic girth and a sheep skin half pad. I am also experimenting with a Thinline pad for extra stability. So far her saddle stays 99% in position. Her canter has improved 200% (she trains piaffe, passage and now pirouette canter). The Passier saddle is very light. Perhaps it 'floats' more on her.

[slc2]

Often the problem is not the saddle but the balance of the horse which is too downhill. Too some people push the saddle forward because of how they ride with their seat. When the horse pulls on the reins, the saddle also can come forward.

That said, point billet, wider tree.

[ToN Farm]

Often the problem is not the saddle but the balance of the horse which is too downhill. Too some people push the saddle forward because of how they ride with their seat. When the horse pulls on the reins, the saddle also can come forward.
Absolutely. This can also happen with a too wide gullet on a low withered horse that is downhill and not wanting to lift and carry. Add to that the ride pushing with the seat, and the result is a saddle on the shoulders. I now know why 'saddle position' is one of the things they judge in sporthorse conformation inspections.

[CatOnLap]

Absolutely. This can also happen with a too wide gullet on a low withered horse that is downhill and not wanting to lift and carry. Add to that the ride pushing with the seat, and the result is a saddle on the shoulders. I now know why 'saddle position' is one of the things they judge in sporthorse conformation inspections.

It can also happen with a too narrow gullet and a horse that is technically uphill. If the saddle is too narrow, it can slide forward toward the shoulders which are narrower than the barrel. Only a competent saddle fitter can tell what is the problem.

Good luck with it.

[Eventer55]

FWIW: I have a saddle that was designed and fitted by a master British saddle maker and fitter. My horse is so down hill that the only way I can keep the saddle form going forward is to use a crupper. I tried sticky pads from BOB and still it went on a road trip up her withers.

A big heavy western pad will also stop it from traveling, but the reins get caught in the square edge which is very annoying. You can get a crupper at any hunt tack store or order it on line. I will tell you from breaking horses to drive, some do not like it and it takes a while to get them use to it.

[patch work farm]

I just sent you an email with my phone number for a cheap/easy solution but hard to explain in writing (you will see what I mean by my email). It involves Rubber Maid kitchen shelf liner and believe it or not, the best solution I have found yet!