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Fharoah
May. 14, 2009, 03:17 PM
what is the height of jumps for small childrens hunter. Do small hunters have to get the same distances as large hunters, do they adjust the lines any? What about the small junior. Would a small hunter say 15.3h.h. be expected to do the same line as a large 17.2h.h. hunter or do they shorten the lines at all?

thankyou in advance!

vxf111
May. 14, 2009, 03:20 PM
I have never seen "small childrens," that isn't done in my neck of the woods. Never heard of it, actually, but maybe it's a local circuit thing in your area?

At rated shows, small and large juniors jump the same course. No adjustment of distances. Actually, some of the smalls seem to get around better ;) it's about stride, not height.

Fharoah
May. 14, 2009, 03:24 PM
Thankyou, I haven't done alot of showing I am an ammy. Is it just a childrens hunter division on the A circuit?

hj0519
May. 14, 2009, 03:28 PM
Yes, it's just a Children's Hunter division, there aren't different classes for each horse height. Children's Hunters jump 3'.

Lucassb
May. 14, 2009, 03:39 PM
Children's hunters show at 3' at recognized shows. No split between smalls and larges. Junior hunters show at 3'6" and while they split the juniors between smalls and larges, they are all expected to make the strides and they do not adjust the lines. (The requirement to make the steps is one reason that a good small junior horse is worth a premium... but that's another thread.)

HunterJumper106
May. 14, 2009, 04:01 PM
All children's hunters are 3ft and they are generally split by rider age (depending on how big the show is). Junior hunters jump 3'6" and is split into small/large by horse height.

quicksilverponies
May. 14, 2009, 08:33 PM
At our "A" rated shows in this area (zone 5) there is a low childrens division. Fences are set at 2'6" and strides are the same as the 3' class.

nlk
May. 14, 2009, 08:39 PM
reading this just got me wondering....If they don't shorten the lines then why do they split Juniors into smalls and larges? Does anyone know??

It's probably so basic I'll read it and say I knew that!

CenterStage123
May. 14, 2009, 09:36 PM
reading this just got me wondering....If they don't shorten the lines then why do they split Juniors into smalls and larges? Does anyone know??



I believe its because the smalls have to be going faster to get the stride than the larges do. Wouldn't be fair to judge a more galloping course from a small to a loping course from a large.

IMO, I think the smalls should be able to get the shorter stride, but saldy thats probably not going to happen.:no:

Fharoah
May. 14, 2009, 10:08 PM
IMO, I think the smalls should be able to get the shorter stride, but saldy thats probably not going to happen.:no:[/QUOTE]

They shorten strides for medium and small ponies, why not for small, medium horses?

HunterJumper106
May. 14, 2009, 10:28 PM
At our "A" rated shows in this area (zone 5) there is a low childrens division. Fences are set at 2'6" and strides are the same as the 3' class.

Yeah that is called the pre-childrens here.

HunterRider992
May. 15, 2009, 12:08 AM
They shorten strides for medium and small ponies, why not for small, medium horses?

Because medium, small, and large ponies all jump different heights. A HUGE part of doing the hunters is being able to make the stride nicely, and any decent Small Junior horse can make the stride as easily as a Large, the Smalls just look like they're going a bit faster.

nlk
May. 15, 2009, 12:27 AM
Like I said so obvious! I wasn't sure if there was anything else but that all works for me! Thanks for humoring my curiosity!

Now back to the OP

dags
May. 15, 2009, 11:37 AM
Growing up I assumed the Smalls were originally split off because they were usually young kids, 10-13 y.o.s, competing against much older kids . . . but then they went and further split everything into age groups (making the Smalls even harder to fill, and far easier to get a ribbon), and now I'm not sure why they split either. Plenty of good smalls match the step of a Large, but I guess now an average Small can go around like a small pony and get a ribbon.

Madeline
May. 15, 2009, 11:59 AM
In the olden times, whenever there were more than 40 junior hunters, they just split them by odd/even numbers. It prevented all that measuring and lying that goes on now.

gasrgoose
May. 15, 2009, 12:00 PM
I've always heard Small Juniors of equal quality and show records are more expensive than Large Juniors. The explanation for this is that there a smaller range of horses that fit the height requirement and still have the ability to get the strides. It sounds like Dags post says that small juniors is an easier division. Is this true?

Why aren't the Junoir hunters fences different heights like they are for ponies? I'm sure the quality of horses doing junior hunters can handle additional height. How about Small Juniors jump 3'6" & Large Juniors 4'? Is there a safety concern for Juiniors jumping higher than 3'6" in hunters?

phoenix mom
May. 15, 2009, 12:18 PM
The competition level in the sm jr is very tough in our area. There are many kids that have one of each(not us). More people seem to be going to a small jr rather than a lg pony these days to avoid the inevitable extra sale.

bascher
May. 15, 2009, 12:19 PM
I've always heard Small Juniors of equal quality and show records are more expensive than Large Juniors. The explanation for this is that there a smaller range of horses that fit the height requirement and still have the ability to get the strides. It sounds like Dags post says that small juniors is an easier division. Is this true?

Why aren't the Junoir hunters fences different heights like they are for ponies? I'm sure the quality of horses doing junior hunters can handle additional height. How about Small Juniors jump 3'6" & Large Juniors 4'? Is there a safety concern for Juiniors jumping higher than 3'6" in hunters?

I've always heard what you heard, but I guess you could consider it "easier" because there potentially will be fewer horses in it because fewer can fulfill the requirements. So it's harder for the horse but "easier" for the rider maybe because there's less in it? But then again, there might not be as many bad small junior hunters because they have to be good to make it down the lines with scope..so it could be harder? Lol I have no idea, I guess you could look at it in a multitude of different ways.

Lucassb
May. 15, 2009, 12:43 PM
I've always heard Small Juniors of equal quality and show records are more expensive than Large Juniors. The explanation for this is that there a smaller range of horses that fit the height requirement and still have the ability to get the strides. It sounds like Dags post says that small juniors is an easier division. Is this true?

Why aren't the Junoir hunters fences different heights like they are for ponies? I'm sure the quality of horses doing junior hunters can handle additional height. How about Small Juniors jump 3'6" & Large Juniors 4'? Is there a safety concern for Juiniors jumping higher than 3'6" in hunters?

Good small juniors are indeed typically more expensive than larges although quality is expensive in either category. I don't agree that the small juniors are an easier division, at least not in my area (Zone 1 & 2) nor were they an "easy" division at WEF. I went down to watch my young horse (who is being pointed toward that division after he has a few more miles) during WCHR week and there were close to 30 small juniors in the youngers alone... only about 10 less than the numbers in the larges.

Not sure why you'd want the large juniors to show over more height; the division is about style and quality, not a scope test.

dags
May. 15, 2009, 12:45 PM
The Smalls at Devon is probably some of the stiffest competition of any division, and yes a *good* Small costs more than a *good* Large as there are just fewer of them around. I personally love to watch a good Small go around, they carry a little pace and jump with more effort, and remind us that size doesn't matter :D

The Smalls had a hard time filling in some areas when I was growing up, and that was before the further split by age. If I could have only shaved 7/8" of my Large my junior career would have been far easier competition. Certainly not saying that the quality of the horse is easier to come by in this division, it is most definitely harder and the proven ones are worth a ton, but there's often a ribbon for everyone in the class. Or it gets combined.

gasrgoose
May. 15, 2009, 12:57 PM
Not sure why you'd want the large juniors to show over more height; the division is about style and quality, not a scope test.

I mentioned this only because they do this(change the fence height, with the height of the horse) in ponies and change the length of the lines. It just seems like the same logic would apply to Junior Hunters.

mvp
May. 15, 2009, 01:00 PM
The small junior hunter was (probably) invented to produce a suitably-proportioned horse for the smaller rider.

The 15.3 horse still must have a 12 foot stride. That's a taller order than it would be for a taller horse. This is why good ones are expensive. You are buying an unusual athlete... not to mention the mind, jump, overall beauty.

The reason to divide large and small is about finding a way to sort huge classes when there are many junior hunters at a show. Since many 15.3-ers will do a nice job but all gallop just a bit more, this way of cutting up the junior hunter world is pretty nice. It pits "like against like" pictures, rather than asking a judge to compare the 17.2 14-foot, "walker" to the equally nice but galloping shorty.

Answer your questions?

gasrgoose
May. 15, 2009, 01:18 PM
The small junior hunter was (probably) invented to produce a suitably-proportioned horse for the smaller rider.

The 15.3 horse still must have a 12 foot stride. That's a taller order than it would be for a taller horse. This is why good ones are expensive. You are buying an unusual athlete... not to mention the mind, jump, overall beauty.

The reason to divide large and small is about finding a way to sort huge classes when there are many junior hunters at a show. Since many 15.3-ers will do a nice job but all gallop just a bit more, this way of cutting up the junior hunter world is pretty nice. It pits "like against like" pictures, rather than asking a judge to compare the 17.2 14-foot, "walker" to the equally nice but galloping shorty.

Answer your questions?

Yes that pretty much answers my questions. So would you say the successfull small juniors are some of the better equine athletes in the hunter world?
It does seem that strange (coming from the pony world) that a 15.3hh horse would be asked to do the same strides and fence height as a 17.2hh horse. I know the 2 referenced horses are not jugded against each other, but it just seems wrong to me.

luvs2ridewbs
May. 15, 2009, 02:27 PM
There are plenty of huge divisions out there though. Why only chose juniors? Why not small and large A/Os or Small/Lg pre greens, First years, etc. I think if it was to compare like picture to like picture, all hunters would need a card.

vxf111
May. 15, 2009, 03:00 PM
I maintain that the split is fairly arbitrary and purely a matter of numbers.

Here in Zone 2, juniors often fill well and there are sufficient numbers to justify a split by age and height. If A/Os filled to the same extent, I suspect there'd be a push to split them too. As it is, at least around here, they are able to fill based on age splits but height splits would cause sections to be short. I don't know if that's a similar situation elsewhere. I think the splits develop where interest warrants them-- not because of an intrinsic magic-ness to the 16.0 hand number.

Why 16.0? I dunno, it could just as easily be 16.1 or 16.2 or 15.2-- it's arbitrary. You can't tell me that jumping around would be easier based exclusively on the addition of 1 inch to the wither ;) A horse with a nice big stride and scope is a horse with a nice big stride and scope, and the size difference between 15.2 and 16.1 is more vanity/preference/appearance than anything else (now do I think 12.1 to 16.1 is a meaningful height difference, yes).

We could just as easily have the chestnut/bay splits ;) Or the ditz/non-ditz splits. I don't think the junior split by height is anything other than a simple, objective way to parse out a group large enough to warrant it.

vxf111
May. 15, 2009, 03:09 PM
I also have a theory about why small juniors are more in demand. Supply.

The smalls are 14.3 to less than 16-- a span of 4 inches or so. The larges are 16 or more... and I've seen hunter horses up to 18 hands. That's a span of 6 inches. More room there.

Everyone is breeding for the top of the line (I don't think there's a huge demand for 14.3 small juniors). So everyone is trying to get that magic 15.3 and change. It's easy to go over by a little when you're trying to hit the very tippy top of the line.

There's overall more demand for larger horses. Yes people treasure a nice small junior but there's added benefit to its smallness for the junior market-- a junior can have and compete a large and a small. There's no benefit in the A/O market. There's no split. My small doesn't get my an extra ride in an extra class. So there's no plus factor for the size outside the realm of the juniors. And what's popular right now? Big horses.

So if you were breeding, would you take a chance on (1) going over and having a non-small junior that won't card under 16, that everyone thinks is unfashionably small? or would you (2) breed big for the trendy horse the ammys and juniors need? I think a lot of people go with #2. A shame, some of my favorite, favorite horses are the smalls.

mvp
May. 15, 2009, 03:25 PM
I'd be psyched to have a small, narrow but long-strided eq horse who helped me make the Perfect Picture you tall peeps make on horse-sized-horses.

I think the breeding and $ are also part of the "numbers" that matter. I suspect that the small junior horses out there are pleasant mistakes from breeders who wanted to get to the magic 16 hand mark and missed.

But the "legitimacy" of dividing kids' horses by size has a slightly better rational when applied to kids rather than adults. Let's assume that the step from large pony to horse is a big one. Let's also assume you wanted to move up from the children's hunters at the same time or PDQ. I think this must be what makes the Junior Hunter somehow a legitimate "product" as opposed to another kind of specialty, the Modified A/O horse (3'3").

Just a thought about why things are as they are, not an argument for their being that way.

dags
May. 15, 2009, 03:37 PM
I think the breeding and $ are also part of the "numbers" that matter. I suspect that the small junior horses out there are pleasant mistakes from breeders who wanted to get to the magic 16 hand mark and missed.


Actually, they're shooting for either 15.3 7/8h or 16.2+, generally speaking- at minimum a solid 16.1. Anything in that 16.0-plus-fraction is not an attractive Large junior on the market, and would have been better off measuring under 16h. Given the generally enormous size of the WBs out there I suspect it's become even harder to get something under 16h.

Seven-up
May. 15, 2009, 11:36 PM
I tend to think that some of those monsters in the larges have a harder time making the strides than the little ones.

6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other and all that...

The smalls have to worry about getting flat while they gallop, and the bigg'uns have to worry about losing impulsion and having to do that choppy little stride to make it all fit. JMO, but I feel like it's easier to be pretty in a nice forward gallop than it is to make a beast fit the strides in and not look short-strided. I guess I feel that way because my mare was 15.2h (and a 1/4", thankyouverymuch!):winkgrin: I was used to hearing "GO!!!" instead of "WHOA!!!"

Ben and Me
May. 16, 2009, 04:43 PM
The 15.3 horse still must have a 12 foot stride. That's a taller order than it would be for a taller horse. This is why good ones are expensive. You are buying an unusual athlete... not to mention the mind, jump, overall beauty.

I think the Juniors are set on a 14' stride, not 12'. The Childrens courses are set on a 12' stride (and so are Large Ponies, I think). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

livinthedream
May. 17, 2009, 12:35 AM
Yes, the Juniors are set on a 14' stride.

EAY
May. 17, 2009, 08:10 PM
Yes, the Juniors are set on a 14' stride.

Glad to hear this. My greenie's got a big stride and we're having some difficulties making the strides at our local schooling shows. We're lucky if they're set at 12', and I've really got to hold her to fit them in. I was beginning to worry that her stride is too big. Are the lines also set for a 14' stride for the A/Os, greens, and working hunters?

mvp
May. 17, 2009, 08:13 PM
Really? That might be tough for many horses.

Maybe I'm old and out of the loop, but every damned book, Practical Horseman article, course with feet given I have ever scene treats the 12' stride as the universal standard.

Has it honest to God changed?

mvp
May. 17, 2009, 08:14 PM
Really? That might be tough for many horses.

Maybe I'm old and out of the loop, but every book, Practical Horseman article, course with feet given I have ever seen treats the 12' stride as the universal standard.

Has it honest to God changed?

Ben and Me
May. 17, 2009, 09:20 PM
Maybe I'm old and out of the loop, but every book, Practical Horseman article, course with feet given I have ever seen treats the 12' stride as the universal standard.


I would imagine that's because 3' has become the "universal standard" of the hunter world.

Fharoah
May. 17, 2009, 09:37 PM
If you were setting a proper horse show five stride for the 3' childrens how many feet includding take off and landing would you measure?