Two Questions re: MTB and RA

[SED]

1. I've been reading alot of articles stating that it is bad (or not) to race fillies against the boys. But no one says WHY. (the closest I saw was when one trainer talked about "it taking too much out of her" -- not sure what that means). At this age, both the male and females appear to be of similar size and musculature (I'm assuming the boys get more muscular later as they continue to get more testosterone). I'm assuming their bones and lung size are similar. Their stride lengths appear the same. So why do fillies generally not race with stallions/geldings?

2. I LOVE watching both the Oaks and Derby races on youtube. Magnificent races. Borel did a super job on MTB. But even with good riding, that horse HAD to have an amazing kick to come from behind like that. Why didn't any of the other zillions of horses in that field do that? Is it something unusual to have that level of acceleration at the end? If so, why was he 50-1? Or were the other riders just caught flat footed, and didn't know they needed to go into that next gear until it was too late?

[DickHertz]

1. Because people ususally run their "good" fillies against the boys when they aren't ready to beat them. It typically takes a special filly to win aTRiple Crown race or Grade I, thus the Winning Colors and Rags to Riches of the worlds are easily remembered by even casual racing fans.

2. Because the rest of that field was very mediocre and Mine That Bird loved the off track condition.

[SED]

Dick, your answer to question 2 makes perfect sense. I wouldn't have wanted to run on that track either!

But I'm still confused by question 1. By saying it takes a "special filly" to run with the boys, it begs the question of WHY, since to a casual fan like me the fillies do not physically look like they are at a disadvantage. Maybe that's just because TV doesn't give a true picture, however.

In humans, the physical size and strength differences between genders are so clear, but I have a hard time (without looking at the equipment) to tell the difference on the track between a filly and a stallion/gelding. So my question persists. Is there a strength difference even at this young age that its just hard to see from the outside? A phychological/concentration difference caused by hormones? A different rate of development in their lungs or bones?

[DickHertz]

you can run fillies against the boys at 2, but by 3 it's typically a different story. They start growing alot late in their 2 year old into 3 year old year typically. Don't overthink it. It's not easy for a 3 year old filly to beat boys on such a high level.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

All things being equal, a colt or gelding will beat a filly, because they are physically stronger. That holds true across most species of animals. This is why fillies/mares get a weight allowance in open company. However, a good filly, when you factor in the weight allowance, can definitely hold her own with boys. There are innumerable examples of this, as have been pointed out in other threads.... go to youtube and look up Zarkava, Goldikova, Sunline, Ouija Board, Makybe Diva, Pride etc.

There is definitely a bias in US racing culture about running f/m's against males. I think a large part of the reason for this is that there are so many restricted races for f/ms in US racing that their connections don't have to venture outside into open company, and on the rare occasion when they do, it becomes a big deal.
It's not a big deal in other parts of the world.

[Glimmerglass]

1. I've been reading alot of articles stating that it is bad (or not) to race fillies against the boys. But no one says WHY. ... So why do fillies generally not race with stallions/geldings?

In the US its more rare and outside of the States it isn't a big deal. However most of that mixed sex racing is on turf while I think the question is more for racing in the US and on dirt.

I'll reiterate what Hall of Famer trainer D. Wayne Lukas said yesterday:

According to Lukas, he uses three guidelines to determine whether a filly should compete outside her gender. Is she exceptional? Does she possess tactical speed? Does she figure to contend?

Because Rachel Alexandra fits all three criteria, Lukas said, "I think it's well within her grasp. She'll probably be favored and pull it off."

A filly who by size is smaller, although fiesty, risks being intimidated. Rachel is rather large although not wide and stout. She certainly is much taller then say Mine That Bird. Speed is something 'Rachel' has gobs of with a much longer stride and if you watch her last few graded stakes wins I'm hard pressed to see Calvin ever so much as ask her to go.

In terms of reward you have to ask: what is the upside to racing against the boys? Is there more money? The truth is no - Stardom Bound prior to her being ruled off the Derby trail had the most money of any 3-yr old, save for the Dubai-runners. SB didn't exactly win every race in sight for the girls but rather a few selective races.

Is there more glory? Well that's really just for bragging rights for the owner. A filly who knocks of the boys does have that notch but it isn't going to boost the future value of her offspring by 100%.

Hall of Fame trainer Bob Baffert who sent the last fillies up against the boys in any leg of the Triple Crown ( 1999's Preakness with Excellent Meeting and 1999 Belmont with Silverbulletday) said he personally would never send a filly again into one those races.

That said Bob has been very impressed with Rachel Alexandra and (to Wayne Lukas' criteria "Is she exceptional?") he too recognizes she's a superfreak. Not that he'll conceed the win before the gates open but he said there would be no shame in his Pioneerof The Nile losing to Rachel Alexandra as she's potentially that exceptional.

[Glimmerglass]

A timely article: Gary West DFW Star-Telegram May 13 "Rachel Alexandra is extraordinary, but running against colts isn’t" (http://www.star-telegram.com/808/story/1376194.html)

While some valid reasons may argue against running a filly against colts, this strict segregation by gender is partly, I suspect, the result of brainwashing. Breeders, who exercise far too much control over the sport, generally would prefer to see a colt win the Triple Crown races, and for a good reason: A mare can produce one foal a year; a stallion can sire a hundred.

In other countries, where the breeders aren’t so influential, this wouldn’t seem so extraordinary. Vodka, a 4-year-old filly, became Japan’s Horse of the Year after twice beating males last year. Zarkava, a 3-year-old filly, became Europe’s Horse of the Year after she became the 17th female to win the Arc de Triomphe.

In 1983, a 4-year-old French filly named All Along won the Arc. Two weeks later, having traveled to Canada, she won the Rothmans International; 13 days later, she won the Turf Classic in New York; and two weeks after that, in Baltimore, she won the Washington D.C. International. In a span of 41 days, while racing at four racetracks in three countries on two continents, she won four major stakes, all against males, the poor babies.

[Calico]

A 2008 study by the Federal Univeristy of Rio de Janiero analyzed sexual dimorphism in horses. They found that stallions and mares are proportioned differently, although one is not necessarily bigger than the other. Part of the abstract is copied below:


The study analyzed 25 linear and 11 angular measures obtained from 25 stallions and 56 mares registered with the Mangalarga Marchador Brazilian Breeders Association. Knee girth, cannon girth, chest width, chest girth, back-loin length, hip width, distance from elbow to knee, hind limb hoof length, head width, shoulder length, and body length were found to be linear measures that provided evidence of sexual dimorphism. Angular measures with evidence of sexual dimorphism were shoulder–humerus, metacarpal–phalanx, coxae–femur, and femur–tibial angles. Stallions were larger than mares for almost all linear measures, except for back-loin length, hip width, and distance from elbow to knee. Shoulder–humerus and coxal–femur angles were larger in mares, while metacarpal–phalanx and femur–tibial angles were larger in stallions.

[Las Olas]

I don't think it has anything to do with size. I'm looking out my window at a gelding who won a Breeders Cup race and he's 15.1. I'm not convinced that horses even know how big they are. I think it's more of a confidence issue. I just think males generally have more confidence.

I would have no problem running a filly against the colts if she were aggressive enough and the race suited her.

[Larksmom]

I am in favor of girls vs boys but maybe not so much on Triple Crown. Definatly not the Demolition Derby. Talk about horses not needing to be there! Too much traffic, much higher risk of injury, and a troubled trip. Now I don't have nearly the knowlege you guys do, this is strictly as a fan. I am very hopeful of seeing Zenyatta racing against colts this year.
I want RA to win, but in my limited knowlege, I think Saratoga is perhaps better, as they would be more mature.

[Blinkers On]

you can run fillies against the boys at 2, but by 3 it's typically a different story. They start growing alot late in their 2 year old into 3 year old year typically. Don't overthink it. It's not easy for a 3 year old filly to beat boys on such a high level.

Definitely Dick, and it is done with success early on in the year.
I was watching pursuit of the crown and they showed bot RA and MTB, and the difference in them is so significant. Rachael looks like she hasn't missed a beat. The 1/2 she worked was in barely a high gallop. MTB looks to have lost some flesh. He isn't the most impressive looking horse. She gets a short flight , he goes by van or trailer for 10 hours. That may effect condition even more.
This filly gives no indication that anything stresses her out nor is she ill prepared to run against the boys. She is big and strong and one would assume sound as she would have had to pass a PPE for the sale. SHe carries good flesh and takes everything in stride. I won't be surprised if she runs away with this race. I will be surprised if she is defeated. They might pack her wide from her PP, but I don't see it hurting her. MTB got the trip, stepped up massively in the slop. It was a great race. Wooly isn't Wiggins, nor is he Asmussen. He has won 2 races this year.

In the Derby no one but MTB was finishing with much enthusiasm. Rachael finished alone and under wraps.
MTB actually had to show a different dimention in the Derby. He had always shown speed but did not get involved early in the Derby much to his benefit. Their strides are very different when you consider the size difference. He is small and efficient moving, but she covers far more ground and is equally if not more efficient in movement.
MTB is a gelding, so testoserone levels are really what is naturally occuring is of little relevance as RA also has naturally occuring testoserone as well.

[BabyGoose]

Definitely Dick, and it is done with success early on in the year.
I was watching pursuit of the crown and they showed bot RA and MTB, and the difference in them is so significant. Rachael looks like she hasn't missed a beat. The 1/2 she worked was in barely a high gallop. MTB looks to have lost some flesh. He isn't the most impressive looking horse. She gets a short flight , he goes by van or trailer for 10 hours. That may effect condition even more.
This filly gives no indication that anything stresses her out nor is she ill prepared to run against the boys. She is big and strong and one would assume sound as she would have had to pass a PPE for the sale. SHe carries good flesh and takes everything in stride. I won't be surprised if she runs away with this race. I will be surprised if she is defeated. They might pack her wide from her PP, but I don't see it hurting her. MTB got the trip, stepped up massively in the slop. It was a great race. Wooly isn't Wiggins, nor is he Asmussen. He has won 2 races this year.

In the Derby no one but MTB was finishing with much enthusiasm. Rachael finished alone and under wraps.
MTB actually had to show a different dimention in the Derby. He had always shown speed but did not get involved early in the Derby much to his benefit. Their strides are very different when you consider the size difference. He is small and efficient moving, but she covers far more ground and is equally if not more efficient in movement.
MTB is a gelding, so testoserone levels are really what is naturally occuring is of little relevance as RA also has naturally occuring testoserone as well.

A few have said that RA was running against a pretty weak field of horses in the Oaks and that the Preakness will be a pretty big jump in class for her?

[Blinkers On]

The field was competetive with each other, she was tons the best. Stardom Bound, Who Why(that is her name, right?) are not even Rachael's equals at this point. She is exceptional as far as her female peers are concerned. I agree 100%.
And yet others in this thread (I believe) have said that the KD field was far from a special bunch. MTB included. I think there are a number of horses that did not run in the Derby that are a little different type than most of the Derby Field. Including Quality Road, Kelly Leak, I want Revenge.........
I don't think this particular race is a big step up in class for her any more than the Belmont was for RTR.
I am cheering for her to win on Saturday far more than I am MTB. It is a strange reaction to this filly. People would rather see her victorious over the boys than many would like to see MTB be live for the TC. I find that to be a very interesting statement as to her legitimacy as a freak.

[Bacchus]

This filly gives no indication that anything stresses her out nor is she ill prepared to run against the boys.

Unfortunately, I've heard a little differently. I was told that RA spends a week lying down in her stall after even an easy race and it takes her a while to recouperate. I hope with all the changes in her life/routine that she is ready for the Preakness. Seems as if she ran a few of her early races closer together, but not lately.

Another thing I wonder about is steroids -- in the past, you could give fillies steroids that made them more aggressive and more like the boys. Not so anymore. Aggression can play a big factor on the track.

I hope she can handle it and isn't intimidated, and I sure hope it doesn't ruin her. If she wins, and especially dominates, it will be a good thing for racing.

I'd rather see MTB win just for the sake of the Triple Crown, but she's my second choice.

[BabyGoose]

I hope she can handle it and isn't intimidated, and I sure hope it doesn't ruin her. If she wins, and especially dominates, it will be a good thing for racing.

I'd rather see MTB win just for the sake of the Triple Crown, but she's my second choice.

I would think a win by the still underdog MTB would be very good for racing as well. If he still wins after losing his jockey and everybody so sure that RA can't lose a race, I think it would be great if MTB won the Preakness. Even if he didn't take the TC a win in the Preakness would be amazing.

[SED]

No one in the press talking much about the other horses in this race, but I would imagine that there is just as good a chance that one of them will win than if either MTB or RA win.

I want so much for RA to win. I don't know why -- its not just because she is a filly. She just took my breath away with her stride and her determination.

[Blinkers On]

Unfortunately, I've heard a little differently. I was told that RA spends a week lying down in her stall after even an easy race and it takes her a while to recouperate. I hope with all the changes in her life/routine that she is ready for the Preakness. Seems as if she ran a few of her early races closer together, but not lately.

Another thing I wonder about is steroids -- in the past, you could give fillies steroids that made them more aggressive and more like the boys. Not so anymore. Aggression can play a big factor on the track.

I hope she can handle it and isn't intimidated, and I sure hope it doesn't ruin her. If she wins, and especially dominates, it will be a good thing for racing.

I'd rather see MTB win just for the sake of the Triple Crown, but she's my second choice.

The steroid factor holds little water with me. Some fillies are naturally aggressive. Kind of like some women are more naturally "aggressive." One could previously (and we did) give any sex Winstrol or Equipoise etc. So even though intact horses have higher levels they were often still given additional "help." Same quantities and schedules per individual barns for geldings, fillies and mares and colts. Big deal.
It isn't uncommon for good horses to chill out after their job is done. Same goes for growing horses which she certainly is both. IF she was exhausted post KO, I would be very surprised. As easily as she did it, it was a paid work out. Steve isn't training her hard into the race. She likely doesn't need it. The 1/2 in 48 was faster than Steve tends to want, and yet she did it under a hold and very well within herself. One could assume that if she were wiped out after the KO that a) she may not have worked between the two races, b) she would show a loss of body like MTB does, c) she may or may not be running let alone stepping out of her gender specific races.
I am on board with her all of the way. If I have to eat crow post race I will be happy to do so. BUT I doubt that will happen.

[rcloisonne]

And yet others in this thread (I believe) have said that the KD field was far from a special bunch. MTB included. I think there are a number of horses that did not run in the Derby that are a little different type than most of the Derby Field. Including Quality Road, Kelly Leak, I want Revenge.........
Ya know, everyone seems hell bent on dissing MTB's win in the KD yet there have been very few comments regarding his final quarter mile of 23 & 2/5 - only a tic off Secretariat's 23.1 record. And on a sloppy track no less. What's up with that? :confused:

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Another thing I wonder about is steroids -- in the past, you could give fillies steroids that made them more aggressive and more like the boys. Not so anymore. Aggression can play a big factor on the track.


That's a non-flyer. Steroids are banned the world over, yet you see top class F/Ms race against boys all the time overseas.

[SED]

Rcloisone - that was my second question. That acceleration was pretty amazing. The muddy track explains some of it from the standpoint that other horses who might have been able to do the same thing were "off." But still....

[Bacchus]

That's a non-flyer. Steroids are banned the world over, yet you see top class F/Ms race against boys all the time overseas.

I just hope RA has the natural aggression. Some do, some don't. In the past, in the U.S., you could add a little;)

She's a great looking, strong filly, though, and will probably handle the boys just fine. From some of the pics I've seen, her exercise rider can barely hold her back. Changing owner/trainer/groom routine must be a little stressful -- I hope it doesn't affect her too much.

And yes, BabyGoose, I think MTB's win would be fabulous for racing -- that's why I'm pulling for him. RA's win might be better based on the general public's racing view, but either would be good.

The most important thing, obviously, is for everyone to come home in good health.

[Blinkers On]

Ya know, everyone seems hell bent on dissing MTB's win in the KD yet there have been very few comments regarding his final quarter mile of 23 & 2/5 - only a tic off Secretariat's 23.1 record. And on a sloppy track no less. What's up with that? :confused:

Yes, the last 1/4 was fast. When one wants to compare his time on a sealed track to 36 years ago on a fast track, I have to scratch my head. Secretariat ran a whole lot more of the race ( let's say he started picking up horses about the 5/8 pole), MTB ran the last 3/8 maybe. Sloppy tracks are sealed tightly which makes them hard which makes them fast. Speed horses were toiling, makes sense that a horse that showed no speed won. Secretariat did not have a rail trip. In fact he was called as in the middle of the track turning for home. Imagine how fast he would have finished with a rail skimming trip. There is little to no correlation between the races and the fractions run by Secretariat and Mine That Bird. Borders on sacriledge! MTB also ran the shortest distance of anyone. The mud likely helped him out in a big way. It may happen that the Preakness is also muddy, which may or may not help MTB. It is a different surface than CD. The slop didn't seem to hurt RA either.
If you are a numbers player, Rachael's speed figures are both better than MTB. On paper all she has to do is repeat her Oaks performance and that would put her in the winner's circle.