Startling - an EPM symptom?

[Stacie]

Is sudden startling sometimes a symptom of EPM? I have a horse that the vet is going to test for EPM and one of things that he does, that I cannot explain, is that he will suddenly run out of the cross-ties. One minute he is standing calmly and the next minute he seems very frightened and will break out of the crossties. When I bought him a year ago, he did it once or twice but it was always in response to a suddenly waved arm. This past month, he has broken out 4 times and none of those times was there any reason for it. He throws his head up and backs out like someone is coming at him.
Just wondering....

Edited to Add: The EPM test is not due to the startling. But once I started to consider EPM as a potential candidate for his other issues, I wondered if it would explain the startling as well

[ShotenStar]

While I can't definitively answer your specific question, I can tell you that my highly reactive, relentlessly hyper mare is much improved post-EPM treatment. The vet and I speculated that her discomfort in her own body -- not being able to trust she knew where her parts where -- upped the flight response.

Please keep notes and report back as the EPM treatment progresses. I firmly believe there are many more early, subtle signs of EPM that owners / riders notice, but do not connect to the EPM until much later. If we could be aware and start treatment earlier, we would likely have better outcomes.

*star*

[shawneeAcres]

I have been treating a horse for EPM that last month, it started with a strnge up and down motion of one hind leg particularly in the canter. Something he began doing which has gotten progessively worse is startling and panicing over practically nothing. He nearly ran over top of me the other day coming out of the wash stall. I think it has to do with the EPM

[tpup]

My friend's mare does this and she does not have EPM. She simply cannot be cross tied. If you tie her with just one tie or let her stand in the barn aisle not tied, she is fine. Nothing spooks or bothers her. She is very calm and quiet. But clip those cross ties on and she often does the same thing. It may be nothing and that your horse has decided he/she doesn't like it. I hope it's not EPM - let us know.

[2horseowner]

I am 6 weeks into an 8 week epm treatment. My horse would become very spooky and would startle at the most bizarre things. We could walk by the same jump and he would freak out every time. The Marquis has made a huge difference. Hang in there, I know how you feel. I've just started back w/ 10 minutes of walk, I am amazed at how different mentally and physically this horse is. I agree w/ Shotenstar about being so uncomfortable in his body. Keep us posted!

[Stacie]

We started my guy on the compounded treatment a month ago. HUGE difference in this horse. He used to hate being groomed and now he drops when I start to brush him. He is dead quiet in the cross ties. He doesn't trip. He doesn't stab his toes into the ground (which he would do on and off without any physical reason for it. He'd be fine one day and the next day he'd be stabbing his toes and then it would stop for no reason). He is happy and quiet under saddle and moves beautifully. His muscling is already changing. I'm so pleased for this guy.

[2DaPoint]

Ohmygosh you guys, I can't tell you how, (well, not "happy" exactly), but reinforced your comments have made ME!
I have a client with a beautiful, but just never quite right, gelding who has been treated for EPM in the past.
I had one of my favorite vets in the world look at him again just recently because he had gone all funky again. Startling, spooking, bucking, and sitting back in the crossties, all for no good reason, among some of his odd behaviors.
Just by watching the very strange way in which this horse crossed his hind legs on the longe line, the vet IMMEDIATELY said he thought it was the EPM rearing its ugly head again.
This was the original vet who diagnosed him the first time... over a year ago.

I have been so utterly deflated because the horse's owner is getting opinions and advice from so many different sources who do NOT agree with the original vet's diagnoses or my own gut feelings! Not the least of which is them telling her that the startling and spazzing could NOT be EPM related. No how no way. Even though my vet did say that when he suddenly becomes aware of various parts of his body that were "asleep" seconds before, it is perfectly normal for the horse to spook.
I feel completely dissed.

So she had blood drawn and we are awaiting test results.
She knows that there are manymany horses who will test positive with the blood, so she is preparing herself to go for the spinal if results come back positive.

What the frick am I going to do if the results come back negative???
Isn't that just horrible?? I'm actually hoping for a positive diagnosis just so I know the owner will follow through with treatment.... again..... this time.

I have ordered Diatomaceous Earth for him, and it should be delivered very soon. At least I know she'll follow through with this because she's paid for it.
(Have you guys heard of this more homeopathic treatment for EPM??)
This same wondervet also said that there is another, newer, cheaper drug on the market that treats EPM and is considered better than Marquis.

OK, obviously I needed to get some of that off my chest.
Anyway, thanks for posting your experiences, and best of luck to everybody on full recoveries!!
KD

[MassageLady]

Dr. Cain in Union KY has a treatment for EPM that he guarantees will get rid of it for good-he must come and look at the horse himself to be sure it is EPM.
Any horse that has had it in the past, is prone to it again-and if it were mine, they'd be on a good immune booster. We do this with the horses on the track, and it does work.
There are many other things that you can do for an EPM affected horse, therapies, with massage can help bring them back to their full potential.

[Stacie]

For the cost of all the tests, you can start the horse on medication NOW and see if it helps. One of my vets always uses Marquis because, he says, it produces a quick result that is diagnostic. We went with the other medication because we didn't need a quick diagnosis. There was nothing left for us to do. He was either going to get better or be retired and we didn't need answer in a week. The compounded medication (it's three meds, 2 rae the traditional meds and the other I would have to look up) $150/month. Sooo much cheaper than the tests or more vet calls.
Another thing to think about.... You can only test for things that we *know* about. It is always a possibility that the previous treatment was treating an organism that is yet to be discovered. The tests will be useless. If the horse was treated previously and got better, then use the same treatment and skip the tests.

[2DaPoint]

The blood tests came back positive.
Not just positive, but a titer count that was hundreds and hundreds above what is typically considered "high".

And she was moments away from taking the horse for a very expensive lameness exam so they could inject his hocks again like they did last time. ARGH!

How horrible is it that I am relieved? HORRIBLE!
The horse will be doing Marquis (again) and the Diatomaceous Earth.
What was that third med??

At this point we just want to halt what is happening.
The owner is holding out little hope for reversing what has already been damaged, but I've seen too many excellent recoveries to write this horse off. Period.

I'll be sending updates.... no worries!
KD

[2horseowner]

Please give us more info on Diatomaceous Earth, I've never heard of it! Also, what is the third treatment?

[EqTrainer]

Spooking/startling *absolutely* can be symptoms of EPM.

ShawneeAcres - I was nearly run down by a horse coming out of a gate - that I would have let my children lead - it was his first symptom of EPM, that and just suddenly stopping while being led. Luckily he's a horse we've had for years and knew very well - it was obvious something was up. Three days later when he spooked and ran into the golf cart I considered that confirmation..

[ASB Stars]

Please do not have the spinal done. While as much as 80% of any given population of horses can come up positive on a Western Blot (the blood test) many people still give it a shot- primarily because their Vet says to do so. But you aren't gonna kill a horse by doing it.

A spinal, on a horse who is already compromised, is risky, risky business. One slip, or twitch, and presto- your horse is now paralyzed, and will need to be euthanized.

Go for the medication- the odds are good that your horse has EPM, and, in the long run, it is cheaper to get started, and forget hundreds of dollars in additional testing, and needless risk.

The drugs that are out there will not damage mamalian tissue- so, with the exception of using Navigator (which has risks of its own) you are on pretty safe ground.

Best of luck to you!

[RG Equestrian]

To those of you that asked about other possible treatments for EPM.....if you don't have the money for some of the pricey drugs, I did treat a bad EPM case by consulting with a vet in Oregon, and using 2-3 cups of home made colloidal silver 2x day. (He sends you the silver generator, or you can buy a good one online for $129). It needs a couple of weeks to build up in the body until you start seeing the results, but is very effective. All you need is distilled water from the store to make your batches.

The horse went untreated for a long time, because the vets thought it was a neck injury putting pressure on the spinal cord causing the symptoms, and so had to wait a while for an appointment at a large equine hospital with a more powerful x-ray unit to scan the lower cervical vertebrae. By the time we went there he could barely trot, and they tried cantering him free in a round pen but he just could not. It took him about 10 seconds to get up after laying down (sat up like a dog for a while, and then came up slowly).
After 3 weeks of the colloidal silver, he had the strength of a normal horse. Today he is being ridden w/t/c. (a little permanent nerve damage remains though)....so treating it ASAP is critical.
Hope that helps.

[2DaPoint]

Diatomaceous Earth (DE..... and DE38) is a naturally occuring substance that can be used as a natural de-wormer, and I have it on good authority that it can apparently clear out the EPM buggers, too.

The man who comes to the barn to do body work on some of the horses was the first person I ever heard talk about it. He said that two of his own personal horses were diagnosed with EPM, and he used Marquis. At first they seemed better, but then the symptoms came back. So, since he regularly feeds DE to "the herd" every three months or so anyway, he treated the EPM horses as well. The symptoms ended.
He had several clients do the same with their horses, and the symptoms ended..... and have never returned.

Further study by one of my clients shows that DE is one of the most often used Homeopathic treatments for worms. That's where the specific "DE38" designation came from.

One of my friends recently found that her feed mill carries DE, and after I told her about the recommendations from this guy, she bought a big ol' bag for not a lot of money and did the suggested 3-month treatment of one of her horses who was thought to be showing EPM symptoms. He's competing again, now, and seems just perfect.

This is definitely one of those "Can't hurt and might help" scenarios. It's cheap and seems to have worked on real people's horses....... Worth a shot, for sure!

So now you know what I know about Diatomaceous Earth.
KD

[2DaPoint]

(it's three meds, 2 are the traditional meds and the other I would have to look up )

Ssssooo..... you're looking that up, right????

Thanks,
KD

[Flash44]

About DE, something I googled...

"The phrase "science has shown" is more complicated than it seems. There have been some experiments with results that DID indicate that SOME parasites can be killed by diatomaceous earth (DE)... under the specific experimental conditions. The conditions did NOT involve horses. It's POSSIBLE that DE, if fed to horses, could kill internal parasites and possibly help control flies. But to my knowledge, there have been no experiments to indicate whether this would be truly effective AND SAFE if administered to horses. Then there's the question of dosage - how much would you give to a horse, and how often? There are no data to help here, and I would NOT recommend that you engage in what I call a "one-rat experiment" with your horse (or even a "ten-rat experiment" if you have ten horses).

As you probably know, "natural" is not the same as "safe". Tell your friend that we simply don't know enough about the effects of DE on equine internal parasites, and that she should not try to use this as a substitute for a proper deworming program. Tell her, also, that if she is going to be handling this substance frequently, she should wear a mask so as to avoid breathing it in. Another name for diatomaceous earth (DE) is crystalline silica, and high-level exposure to the dust from the product has been implicated in some forms of lung cancer. DE is very fine powder, and the dust from it is finer still - even a very slight air movement is enough to create a cloud that a handler or horses would be likely to inhale. The action that is supposed to kill parasites in the horse's stomach and intestines - a scrubbing action created by the razor-sharp edges of the particles - can cause bleeding and cysts in the lungs. In theory, a healthy horse's digestive system will be protected by intestinal mucosa, but not all horses are perfectly healthy - many have ulcers, and although, again, there's no hard evidence for this, I would suspect that horses with stomach or intestinal damage (ulcers, for instance) could be at risk for the same sort of abrasion that affects the lungs.

Oh, and speaking of lungs, how are yours - and how are your friend's lungs? If she is asthmatic, she shouldn't even be handling this stuff.

My personal "take" on matters like these is simple: I don't like to test potentially dangerous products on my horses - by the time I use any medication, I want to KNOW that it is effective and safe, and I want to know exactly how to store it, handle it, and dispose of the container. In the case of horses and medications, the word "natural" is appealing, but not necessarily indicative of purity or effectiveness, let alone safety.

Until there are some reliable studies to indicate genuine effectiveness AND to suggest suitable dosages - together with some helpful advice about storage, handling, and administration - I would suggest that you leave the diatomaceous earth alone and continue to follow the deworming program that your vet recommends for your horses."

[SLW]

Diatomaceous Earth (DE..... and DE38) is a naturally occuring substance that can be used as a natural de-wormer, and I have it on good authority that it can apparently clear out the EPM buggers, too.

With all due respect, I have run fecals on clients horses dewormed exclusively w/ DE. It does not kill parasites. If there was science to support that it killed EPM protozoa the price of DE would skyrocket.

As for not having a spinal tap done to confirm an EPM diagnosis that will depend on your veterinarian. The vet who diagnosed my horse with EPM 10 years ago did it on clinical signs- major muscle atrophy on the mares neck and failed neuro exam. She gave me the option of starting treatment or do a spinal. I opted to skip the spinal and treat the mare.

The vets I work for now will run the Western Blot blood test or do a spinal before dispensing EPM meds. That is how they practice medicine. And while I am sure a horse could become paralysed if a spinal tap goes bad that has never happened where I work. In fact it amazes me at how damn good most every horse is during the proceedure.

[EqTrainer]

IMO, depending on DO for anything would be a serious mistake.

[Merle]

As for spinal taps ... we have many radiographs at school showing where the tap goes (subarachnoid space) and shows the needle going straight through the spinal cord to hit the subarachnoid space on the other side. If you pull CSF then obviously you're in the space but you could have gone through to the other side, though you should know better than to do that :D. This happens more than you think and no animal has been worse off from it, as I have been told. So I don't think spinal taps are as risky as some people think they are.

[Rubyfree]

Just another word on DE-
The 'scrubbing' action that makes DE effective outside the body is negated by moisture- negating it's usefulness internally. DE can be a powerful piece of the pest control puzzle when used as a 'dust' on the coat, around perimeters, on manure piles, etc., but it is NOT effective internally against any nasties.

[Stacie]

Ssssooo..... you're looking that up, right????

Thanks,
KD
I'll check to make sure what it is

[peskee]

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/drfenger/ Do not use trimethoprim it is contraindicated.

[2DaPoint]

Hey, gang, thanks for all your info and concerns on this horse's treatment.

My "report" on DE comes third hand from people who have already done all the research themselves. These other people have used it with high degrees of success.

DE-38 is the recommended feed-through variety of DE that is deemed safest for horses. It is somewhat "pelleted" (and I use the term loosely) which makes it less inhale-able.

My client will not be using DE as a replacement for ANYTHING. It will be in addition to everything else.... worming program, Marquis, Immune system boosters.....

What I have to say in regard to this horse's treatment really has very little bearing on the outcome. She and her close Vet friend have come up with the treatment program.
I will be asked for my input once the horse is ready for reassessment post-treament.
This was told to me in very kind, but very clear terms yesterday at an arranged meeting.
My expertise has been dismissed until the horse is ready to be ridden again. :(