Too fit--Help me not get killed

[mvp]

I'm back, visiting from Hunter World. A while back, I came over here and got some faboo conditioning advice from you guys. It worked, for much better and at little worse.

Now Freakshow is plenty fit. His a$$ is bulging and lined. His suspensories, upon palpation, say "What you got, man? Bring It-- anywhere, anytime."

So when we got outside to party, he makes it clear that you may get killed if you canter. He's otherwise quite broke, lazy, but outside in God's country, he thinks the rules should not apply.

Do you Eventers actually teach your horses to use themselves for Good rather than Evil? As in, "The hind end is meant for going forward, not bucking the rider off"? Or do you just manage the fit monster you have created as you go along? Freakshow is a middle-aged WB, so while he is kind, he has his share of Free Will. Opinions and a sense of entitlement sometimes arise.

I already know that he's happier and I'm safer trotting or cantering along on a mowed path or trail through the woods and in a field. He doesn't see why his rider should ask to turn or do shapes at all if the land doesn't warrant. He takes those gratuitous requests as a personal affront.

I ride him in my hard-to-fall-out-of western equitation bucket. You keep your hands high if he squeals like a happy pig or shakes his head. That means he's ready to put his head between his knees if you don't pay attention or he finds an excuse. The soft, stable bit that's plenty in the ring now isn't quite enough outside. The thinner unstable bit I have used so far is starting to piss him off. I don't want him to learn to curl up behind it. Death would come sooner and with less warning if he learned to carry himself too collected, just poised for bucking.

Perhaps the western bucket, trotting only, high hands at times and a Waterford is the right recipe?

Other ideas?

TIA-- while I'm still vertical and can type.

[RnR]

I am headed into class right now, so no time to really help you out, but had to say your post absolutely cracked me up. I love your wordings. Too funny!

But on the topic, I haven't dealt with this firsthand, but I do retrain TBs from the track, and everyone always recommends turning them out (for several reasons) but one of the arguing points is just for the simple matter of them loosing some race horse "fitness" that way you have the upper hand when you get on them in later months/days.

So while they are hardly your spunky WB, I am always glad I turn them out because HOLY COW are they fit and hyped up coming from the track.

Good luck, hope you get some good advice!

[mjrtango93]

You already have your answer, you just need to train the fire breathing dragon that he still has to work and listen. Easier said that done I know, since he is good in the ring and quiet, I would recommend starting in there for a short period of time just to see where your at, and then outside you go! Do dressage outside, have a small canter, trot serpentines through fields changing bend and keeping his attention. Just because he's fit doesn't mean he needs to be rude. I have had my fair share of nutty fit horses, and trust me they still have there moments of taking over (I own a bucker now, and he isn't even THAT fit yet). Also make sure now that he is fit he is getting out enough whether that is turn out, or long rides (even at just a walk). They can in fact be fit and polite!

[sharri13]

MVP - Thank you for your post, I loved it! And, I got quite a giggle from your narrative.

My soon-to-be 7 year old Canadian Sport Horse/Dutch cross is going into his first year of a program and competing Training level. He is fit and ready to go - to the point that he'll try to leave without me. So, I've taken to lunging him before I get in the tack. Part of me is upset to admit that 29 is not the immortal 16 I used to be, but I do love watching him move when he's all fired-up. Although lunging does not get out all the bucks and bounces, it does soften his exertion. On the other hand, I am complimented that he feels so good and full of himself. We all need good self esteem and the confidence to "express ourselves". Good luck and enjoy!

[April MD]

Thanks for the post! What a hoot!

As for your problem, I find that cantering in the presence of other well-behaved horses works well. Once they see that their "peers" can act like gentlemen (or ladies) while cantering along, they more often than not get the picture and play along.

Another alternative is to introduce cantering stretches up the biggest hill you can find. It is hard for them to drop their head and buck when they are struggling to heft themselves up a hill. Then, once you are at the top, continue cantering whether it be in a circle at the top or along the ridge. Keep extending these "flat" canter sessions until he stops associating cantering with "WHEEE!!! Bucking time!!":lol:

Good luck!

[Blugal]

:lol:
I missed your first post - but does he need to be this fit? If no, I would back off the conditioning a little!

Agree with others that turn-out would be a good thing. Also agree that you need to teach him that "outside" doesn't mean "rude" or "no work". If you have to start off with some work in the ring, a lunge, or the Waterford to establish this, then so be it. Even if you don't have a big field to work in, you can still do shoulder-in and haunches-in, transitions, and probably turn on the forehand/haunches to keep him occupied. Maybe give yourself a 2-week timeline to wean him off the Waterford.

ETA: April MD's hit the nail on the noggin - a BIG hill to canter up will often dampen their enthusiasm for bucking. But the side-effect is that they can become even fitter...

[Lori B]

Giggle. Snort. Hee hee hee.
I have a blessedly lazy horse who doesn't get nutty in the great out of doors, but she sure FEELS like more horse when we go outside. I feel your pain. Or rather, I try every day not to feel that particular pain.

Agree w/ April MD on both of her excellent suggestions. Go outside with a solid citizen, another horse can have an excellent stabilizing effect. The cantering up a hill thing works well too.

[Blugal]

PS it sounds like you would make a wonderful addition to Eventer-world. Come join us on the dark side! Evidently your horse is trying to tell you something ;-)

[lstevenson]

Do you Eventers actually teach your horses to use themselves for Good rather than Evil? As in, "The hind end is meant for going forward, not bucking the rider off"? Or do you just manage the fit monster you have created as you go along? Freakshow is a middle-aged WB, so while he is kind, he has his share of Free Will. Opinions and a sense of entitlement sometimes arise.

TIA-- while I'm still vertical and can type.


:lol: Too funny! I have to ask... is his name really Freakshow??

I've had several of these types, and I just kept them busy with flatwork when they felt wound up. When out in the field, lots of changes of direction and transitions helps them understand that it is not playtime.

And you might find that as soon as it gets a little warmer he settles down. Mine have always been at their most crazy in the spring when the grass is good but the heat and flies aren't bad yet. It's a great time to be a horse!

[pony grandma]

:lol::lol::lol: made me laugh! excellent dialog! I'm still giggling I really got the mental picture of this going right now. I wonder how Bad Boy Billy got named?

I had one of these horses back in my younger years. He walked out of a stall looking ripped. Maybe he was in there doing isometrics. Enough to the point that at a BD clinic the first thing that Bruce said was 'is this horse reallllly this fit?'

Do you have a place to turn this horse out to 'express himself' first before being ridden? Because I like horses with character I always allow them some expression. He feels good and needs the release.

Bitting the horse up will only get him rounder. Forward is the answer to ride him out of the explosion that is building. He needs a breeze so to speak. Do you have something you can use for a gallop track? Not like he needs to get fitter, but he needs to blow off some energy. I had another horse once that would be a real pickle and could not settle down to work unless he had a breeze first. He was considered a rogue for years until I discovered how he wanted to be worked. He'd run and do that running humptey humptey back cracking. I'd just stand in the stirrups and ride it out, letting it go forward until he felt calmer. The forward kept it moving and easy to ride out. Not something that I would recommend to everyone, but it worked for me with this horse. He was a jewel to work with after I took the time to understand him. I had to give him something that no one ever gave him and then he loved me for it. He hated that he'd always been drilled and schooled and controlled all the time. The answer with this horse was that he needed a playtime. Not everyone's cup of tea but he was so talented, but quirky, that I had to find out what he wanted. I trail rode him bareback with a halter and a lead rope, he loved that relaxation outside. A saddle and a bit and he was game.

Whatever you do don't grip with your legs and snatch with your hands. Maybe an English saddle and some two point and a more forward ride off his back. You are going to have to try things to find your understanding with him. Maybe some bareback and loose rein stuff in the arena too.

Mental mind control with lateral work and transitions whenever he gets frisky too! And probably a feed adjustment. Good luck and write back -- maybe there's a book in your future. :yes:

[mvp]

Thanks for the advice, good wishes and enjoyment of the very nice "problem."

From a quiet, broke, unambitous aging athlete, I'll happily take "I feel damned good!" So, if you will excuse the horrible un-PC expression, I say "No" but I'm also wearing Marsha Brady's mini skirt.

More on the inside of Freakshow's head-- where the problem really originates. He definitely has gears, expectations, rules, though he can be impressed and modified. You can make a point if you set up the right scenario. Thank God we are just *this much* smarter than they are and can conspire against them.

From the very beginning, he has always been told, Dressage-Nazi style, that he must listen anywhere, any time. Since he'd like to give you the behind-the-leg Western Pleasure ride in the ring, you must go outside to set up the training opportunity. Nazi-mom gets all riled up and on her stump about the meaning of the truly broke horse. She wants to make a point, risk to life and limb be damned. Horseboy spent plenty of his adolescence being either trotted and cantered hard when he offered a buck or summarily pulled over for a field dressage school until he said "Yes ma'am."

So he does know what the rules and possible consequences are. The Opportunist in a Horse Suit simply weighs the pros and cons and sometimes decides that telling her where to get off is just worth it.

The one problem is that after I come off, he is surprised and "the marble falls out." This is the *only* time ever that this horse panics and runs. If I must occasionally come off, (deeply wrong as that is!), then I want him to stop, if not gingerly place me back in the saddle. I should not have to walk home on my own two legs... that's not what I bought his four legs for.

But there is a road between outside and the barn, so it's a potential problem for other people as well me and the 1,300# dumb-a$$ who *should have known* he might get run over. He doesn't care about the totaling the soccer mom's minivan.

Again, all theoretical and righteous, I'd like to do what I think a cowboy would-- Put a halter, stud chain and 25 foot piece of cotton rope somehow out of they way but tucked into my jeans but not tied to my body. I don't want to jump off him, but So Help Me, I will. He should hit the chain and me anchored to the ground (well clear of his steel-shod weapons/legs) and have a chance to reconsider the wisdom of running off. If you can stop a horse's body at a moment early in panic, you can slow his mind too and he'll stop, think and learn. This one just needs the "reboot" opportunity in this one very rare brainfart scenario.

So dressage outside works, but when he's fit, you might produce more collection and a more escalating snit than you can get to the bottom of. Now in his teens, he doesn't go to full rage or escalate quickly and dishonestly. But once the cascade of bucks starts, you had better be able to think about staying in the middle of him, 'cause that's all you have. I have not been asked to count all the way to 8, but I'm not riding this unless there's a big 'ol belt buckle in the offing.

Cantering with polite buddies doesn't help. He doesn't care if every other horse is a pansy who is willing to Take It from the Man. He might just tell them so.

He would do well foxhunting week after week where he learned to conserve his energy because he might need it for an untold amount of time. This horse is, thank God, self-preserving. I'm too lazy and busy.

How about a deliciously passive-aggressive approach? I'd put a loose chambon or degogue-- the one that's like an anti-grazing device-- on him? I'd "invite him to make the mistake"-- hitting his tender lips hard when he throws his head down in preparation for World Domination? Then I'd say "Don't get mad at me. Technically, I didn't touch your face at all. It's between you and the ropes." The piece of equipment, of course, doesn't care and doesn't change if he hits it. He can try as many times as his little heart desires.

Otherwise, love cantering up the big hill. Did that. Slacker got tired and trotted near the top. Uh, huh, who's the pansy now? It's a nice exercise to keep track of his strength behind.

But it's just as well that he trotted. Being a WB, he used to think it was my fault--warranting punishment-- if his little butt got all worn out. He does have a better work ethic now. Still, I wouldn't put it past him to buck when we got on good flat ground at the top and he had recovered enough to put me in my place.

We won't be getting that fit. More walking and trotting might be fine, even if I have to stop bragging about how broke he is. The day before, however, we went on a walking trail ride with just a western pad on. No problem. When the started to slide, we leg-yielded to a log so the Short Chick could just step off, readjust and step back on.

Does his price really have to go down if you can't canter SuperBroke outside?

I'll be happy for more advice. If any of you guys want to come over and jump off my horse cowboy style, I'll watch from afar.

[mvp]

This horse is so First World.

An easy keeper, he just gets enough Carb-gard (sp?) to keep him happy while the other horses get their better stuff.

The horse is turned out 12-16 hours a day. It's in his union contract.

Not wearing the Waterford now. Check this: He would like to go bitless indoors. He wears the closest thing to nothing I can find in a bit-- a Nathe mullen mouth D-ring, with still hands. He does know he ought to push into contact, but he asks the philosophical question "WhyForchristsakes?" He has a thin, french link loosering for the great outdoors. Pretty big difference, no? The Waterford was just me getting all techno as a temporary solution. Confusing, unstable bit, but not especially painful in non-see-sawing hands. That oughtta teach him, right? Or teach me because it's my last hardware option used up.

Important point-- This behind your leg horse, getting over the childhood trauma of a dressage home always thinks leg means "bring your hiney up." He's right, but he has had to learn that that means "sometimes go faster and longer" too. So breezing must be explained and demoed to him. It's not the obvious answer as a TB would think.

I have never done the "lunge-to-make-'em-safe" thing. Slacker has never needed that either physically or mentally. He does get free lunged and time to play, roll and be groomed in the ring so that his head stays in the right space about me as good cop and bad cop, there being no fixed place for work or relaxation.

I am such a damned purist about training that I'll almost never give a horse whom I believe can maybe think his way through training an opportunity to get tired so that he can think better or longer. So tough ones that others would lunge first, I immediately put to work on long-lines. I want them, especially the potential serial killers, to be thinking about pleasing me from the moment I bring them out of the stall.

This horse really isn't that one, but he does generally take correction well and knows there's some unpredictable training agenda coming. Mentally, he's quite flexible and trusting. Pros like riding him because he'll take all kinds of carp from anyone thinking they have a new set of rules to show him. He just asks for the handbook, uncaps his highlighter pen and shows up for the lecture.

Besides, I'm selfish-- If anyone is going to use up my horse's body, it's going to be me. Not him by himself. Not a circle with me watching.

The other confession is that I should get fitter. I do want to try letting him breeze just to enlarge his repertoire a little more. But you guys would love watching. He's a not fast, not fancy WB. We're perfect for each other, except he shaped up faster than I did.

I think that's his whole portfolio. Have at it.

[foxhavenfarm]

OMG! TOO FUNNY!!!:lol:

Sorry no advice to add here...

[mvp]

Thanks for inviting me to the Dark Side. We'd have fun except...

He'd deliver a Platonic-form-of-back-to-front-the-hands-do-nothing dressage test, even rip-roaring fit.

We'd give you guys a fluid, Eq picture in the Stadium, showing what Hunter World has to offer.

But Cross Country, he'd stop at every fence, get out his survey equipment and start measuring and calculating all kinds of things about the obstacle before he jumped it. Really, it gets old. All the similar-looking black coops on one course, made by the same guy are, in fact, the same.

Besides, I tell him, if you'd just get the minimum numbers-- height and width-- you'd know what all you needed. If you don't want to bang your sacrosanct legs, then just jump bigger. Smartypants likes to do engineering problems. He says that's the only reason he's still intact. He can't take my word for the nature of water and jumps, no matter what.

[Loves to ride]

oh my goodness mvp!

I have now spewed diet root beer all over my laptop and I have to host a meeting in 4 minutes.

you have an uncanny sense of humor and I REALLY want you to post more so that we can continue to enjoy it!

Sadly, no advice but man, your posts are really fun to read!!!!

[April MD]

Hmmm....it sounds to me as if he has learned that by dropping you he gets to run home. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If I am correct, and this was MY horse, I would hit the trails fully armed. I would never leave the barn without a bucking strap (stirrup leather works well), spurs, and a crop. If the horse dropped his head to buck I would start by spurring him forward. If that didn't work I would resort to the crop. And if he STILL managed to get his head down I would at least have something to hold on to!

The self-preservation instict we all love so much USUALLY means that once they manage to work their tails off trying to buck us off AND FAIL, they stop trying. It just doesn't pay off to spend all that energy. For some it takes just one. For others it takes several.

I think the fact that he is bright and lazy (mostly) will work in your favor this time. :yes:

[JER]

There's some good advice here but...

The simple fact is: a fit horse needs to get out and gallop under saddle.

It can be scary. Your knuckles will turn white. You will become a devout Christian, pagan, Muslim or anything that promises a god that will save you.

But you will survive.

If a galloping horse -- and I mean a horse that is moving forward -- bucks, it's no big deal. You'll ride out those bucks just fine. If the horse isn't moving forward, then happy sailing through the air.

I learned to deal with this while working with an old-school trainer who insisted that lunging and turning out were just stop-gap measures that didn't solve the problem long term. She was right. So I learned to do this on a mare with a buck so lethal, she'd put me on the ground 4 times in half an hour -- and I don't come off easily. But if that mare was moving forward, she couldn't drop her shoulder and twist her hip. This was a hunting-fit mare, BTW. Oh, and I screamed and cried. It was scary.

(The only time I've ever been bucked clear over the horse's ears was at a slow sitting trot. This was a straight shot, right over my mare's head, I flipped in the air and landed on my feet directly in front of her nose. We were both quite surprised. This was a different mare, which tells you something about the horses in my life.)

Hills are good, as others have suggested. Also, if your horse has a favorite take-off point, just let him go but make him go on longer than he planned or turn him around and gallop back to his starting point.

Keep your reins in a low cross/bridge and put your irons up a bit. The leverage will help. Eventually, you'll be having fun. :)

[Lori B]

JER, I totally respect the value of your advice, and it sounds right. But I am not warrior enough for a horse that requires that kinda ride. Thank heavens I don't need to be.

[frugalannie]

Great writing, mvp! And a really good question that you've brought up.

Lots of good advice above. The hill work is highly recommended. I used to ride polo ponies, many of whom were only called that because they'd been purchased for that purpose from another career the day before. SOP on one that was being a smartypants was to boot it forward and keep it going at least a minute, maybe 2 after it was ready to quit. If we reached the top of the hill, we'd walk down quietly and then canter back up again until civility was restored. One horse required 4 repeats of this for two days running before the lightbulb went on.

Once in a while we would apply the circling thing. Horse would begin to hump its back and our orders were to spin it in a tight circle (think horse's nose on rider's knee) until it didn't want to go anymore, add a couple of insurance spins and then continue the ride as if nothing had happened. If the rider can manage to be less dizzy then the horse after this, and is willing to reapply if necessary, this usually results in the horse having an epiphany. It does allow the rider to use a much softer bit, as all you have to get is a turn.

Another back to polo ponies days memory, we always used a bit and bridoon (aka Weymouth, double bridle or full bridle) when schooling these horses. We'd use the bridoon (usually snaffle in those ancient days, but I'd use a KK now) until and unless we needed more oomph, and then the curb would be engaged. The ponies got better and better at minding the bridoon until we could just ride them in snaffles. Not really apropos your horse, although his overreaction to the bit makes me wonder if there isn't something related to his mouth.

I love your horse's mindset. And you're great to derive amusement rather than murderous thoughts from it. Keep it up!

[asterix]

Well, I don't have much to offer that can compete with either the witty repartee or the training advice...
I have a Very Polite German Warmblood who occasionally decides he is All That. At 17.2 and beefy, it's a lot of All That. Plus I buy the big lazy polite guys on purpose -- this is not my kind of ride.

I have found that for him, when he is really fit and decides he is Spunkyman, I have to let him just go for a good gallop -- a nice lonnnnnnggggg uphill gallop -- and really let him crack (which certainly feels faster than it is, poor uphill dressage horse. He had to watch videos to learn how to gallop).
After that he heaves a BIG sigh of relief and is much more polite.

I have a young horse who is marginally smaller in some dimensions that the big horse, but with a shorter fuse. He would rarely buck but he does like to bulge up his neck and use it for Evil rather than Good, and as a draft cross he's got some serious front end muscle.
This horse does better with dressage in the field. Lots of hard (for him) dressage. Shoulder in shoulder out shoulder in shoulder out. On a circle. 10 meter circles, insisting on perfect bend, walk-canter-walk-trot. WHen I feel relaxation, I let him stretch out and over, but it can take a while.

More possible tools to play with. good luck!

[Ajierene]

My suggestion would be to keep his attention the entire trail ride. I have had to do it before. When in open fields - circle left, circle right, make like a snake and serpentine. When in the woods, bend left, bend right, ask for a bit of lateral. Walk or trot - do not let 5 strides go by where you are not asking for something. Ask for transitions, and remember to praise in a way where he thinks he is such a good, skilled boy. When he starts to calm down and relax into things, you will not need his attention quite so much, but until then remind him that he still has a rider on his back even though he is out of the ring.

While I appreciate JER's experience, the only times my mare has gotten me off, we were going for a nice happy gallop and she threw in a nice happy buck. She then got all lost and confused as to why I was on the ground. I have sat plenty of bucks in my day, but when you are going forward and in a two point or half seat position that is warranted with a gallop, you are already halfway there when the buck comes. With my mare, it was unpredictable as well, since she has never bucked in any other circumstance.

[rabicon]

I didn't read all the post but I will suggest taking him out with a well behaved horse and let him follow. w/t/c hand gallop etc... behind the other horse and have it take different paths and shapes and just follow and see if he understands that just because your out its not rodeo time.

[JER]

when you are going forward and in a two point or half seat position that is warranted with a gallop, you are already halfway there when the buck comes.

If you're 'halfway there', you're not balanced.

This is why I recommended the racing bridge and the shorter irons.

IME, you can ask a horse to work harder, to focus, whatever but with a truly fit horse, you really need to let him move forward. The front door must be open for him to do so.

IME, a fit horse that gets a regular gallop is a lot easier to work with than a fit horse who doesn't.

And a horse only needs to be as fit as he needs to be. Having an over-fit horse can be a liability and this can vary greatly from horse to horse. This is one of the key components to a fitness program -- what does the horse require for the job that he's doing?

[mythical84]

I too have a horse that can be a fire breathing dragon out-of-doors. We have aptly nicknamed him "Harrymonster." When he's being good, it's more like, "Aww, look at how cute my little Harrymonster is." When he's in big, bad event horse mode, it's very much "HarryMONSTER." Either way I love him.

In any case what helps for us is to just trot. And trot. And trot. And trot some more. At first we may start on a 10-meter circle, but generally after a few minutes of this we can go to larger figures. When it comes time to canter, I usually try for a few strides, then back to trot. Eventually a small canter circle and so on. However, I'll warn you, there are days when we never leave our 10-meter trot circle. It's just the nature of the beast.

What this thread got me thinking about though is the thrill of galloping. I think one of the most exhilarating moments when riding is when you're galloping along and you've reached the point where you're allllllllllmost being run away with, but you still have just enough control to dictate where you're going and when you will stop (although it might take a touch longer than anticipated). Much like the white knuckle moment that JER describes. It's that moment that I feel you have to become comfortable with. Trusting your horse to slow down when you're ready, and trusting your skill to stay with him. Might you be going a bit faster than you anticipated? Yes. Might it be good for you? Yes. :)

[Drive NJ]

Sounds like you need to add a new Rule at the front of his handbook...

RULE # 1

There are no unauthorized dismounts . . . and you (the horse) don't get to authorize them.


You said he liked to follow the rules mostly didn't you?

[evans36]

Mine's similar too. He got fit again after I had an injury and we didn't ride for awhile, MUCH faster than I have shaped up. We've changed his name to Ricky Bobby. He wants to go fast. He likes people to look at him and capers around to make it happen. At least he's proactive.

A couple things I would think about... I've always thought there are 2 kinds of bucks. There are the kind one can ride through and the kind one can't. The kind one can't ride through has nothing to do with ability of the person - it has to do with intentions of the horse. He is 10x your size. If he really wants you on the ground, that's where you'll be. So, are these "I'm done with you, get down!" bucks, or are they "whoooohooo" bucks that you just can't ride through yet? I think that determines a lot about the situation. If they're the first kind, then go ahead, get down, and go back to basics. It sounds like you've got more of the latter kind though, which is good :)

I put mine in a hackamore for more control - he likes to suck behind a stronger bit too, and so I've found that he (a) listens more readily and (b) doesn't translate field riding into ring riding as much with the hackamore. I still have plenty of leverage. The only problem is that lots of the time I want to get his head UP from between his knees, and the hackamore does exert some poll pressure.

Also, I'll ditto what's been said before - let him run and enjoy himself. Why else are you taking him out of the ring in the first place? I kindof love it when mine cuts bucks like that. I trust him enough at this point to know he's not trying to get rid of me, and it does my heart good to see him having a good time. I just stand on up and let the reins slide and hang out until he's finished. Just like with kids, letting it happen also usually brings a swifter end than making a big deal of it. My guy does NOT take well to punishment for enjoying himself. Sounds like yours wouldn't either. If you're frightened, let him go for 3 or 4 strides, then bring him back just when he starts to really shift up into 5th gear. Then let him out again. He gets to run, but never 100% gets to focus on just running.

My other suggestion is to let him canter in a place where he *must* concentrate on the footing. We've got a great trail for this that is fairly flat, but has roots on it and some twists. Basically if he zoned out enough to buck like that, he'd catch his foot and fall down - and he'd be really mortified for anyone to see that. He knows it too, and he never really capers around there. Even when I let him go fast.

[texaseventer]

I just can't tell you how much enjoyment I get from reading your posts. Though my boy does the occassional fire breathing dragon impression, he usually limits his outbursts to lots of snorting and the occassional 4-footed sieways leap. :)

At shows he does get VERY tense and wound up, however, and threatens to burst out of his skin... I have found that "milling" in small circles works wonders. I can turn him until I get dizzy (!!!) one way, and usually it only takes a few circles in the next direction until he figures out that small circles are much more work than just settling down and being a good boy!!!!!

I hope all goes well for you and keep us posted!

Mandy and Joy

[Ajierene]

If you're 'halfway there', you're not balanced.

This is why I recommended the racing bridge and the shorter irons.

IME, you can ask a horse to work harder, to focus, whatever but with a truly fit horse, you really need to let him move forward. The front door must be open for him to do so.

IME, a fit horse that gets a regular gallop is a lot easier to work with than a fit horse who doesn't.

And a horse only needs to be as fit as he needs to be. Having an over-fit horse can be a liability and this can vary greatly from horse to horse. This is one of the key components to a fitness program -- what does the horse require for the job that he's doing?


It is possible that I was not balanced to sit the buck, then again I wasn't prepared for it at all - not thinking about it since I had ridden her for a year before without such incidents. If the original poster is being unseated at the buck, she likely is not going to be prepared enough to stay on at the buck at the gallop either, hence my comment that I do not think that method would be the best idea for MVP. Like evans36 said - there are bucks and there are bucks....

I do agree that a horse only needs to be as fit as he needs to be. Some horses tend to lose their minds a bit more as they get more fit. So, why is your horse this fit? Does he need to be this fit? You might want to consider toning down his fitness regiment if he is just puttering around the hunter/jumper ring.

[Jazzy Lady]

Mine is also a very lazy WB who when super fit is quick to try to promote assisted dismounts.

He needs to go for gallops. He needs to go for a rip. Running martingale is key for him because he does a backwards buck. He KNOWS if he tries to put his head down and buck, I'll get his head up, so what he does instead is throw his head UP, LAUNCH in the air like he's jumping a 4' oxer and then invert himself whilst flying merrily through the atmosphere.

Usually if I just let him have a good rip every so often, he's fine. Canter in the field not good enough, even a quick one. He needs to GO.

[mvp]

Love the help and good humor here. I'll respond to the ideas and points I missed while away. By the way, my horse is in the best mood of his life right now. So much is going right for him that I don't think he mentally knows how to deal with this new level of fitness. Thank God for Ranch Broke-good basics and always good intentions on his part.

He will do outside dressage. By the way, if your behind-the-leg horse can't possibly learn to do shoulders-in inside because you can't generate enough impulsion....honey, take him outside, let him get all amped up and then exploit his energy for some impressive lateral work. I'm not above that.

Anyway, he does stay in a Cross Country or Foxhunting kind of frame at a big trot or canter through the woods or on a path. This means he's basically balanced, as fast as the footing allows and nicely accepts those "check in" half halts every few strides of if you need to change the bend.

To satisfy my OCD and/or philosophical personality, I think he should learn the mental job of galloping outside as part of being a finished horse. I like the idea of not stopping him, but putting him in a safe situation that lets me teach him.

He should also stop when I come off. That happens every two years, no matter what-- my number just comes up. No problem. But one of you guys needs to come over, jump off him cowboy style and teach him to stop. I can't once we're disconnected.

Anywho. I do bridge my reins-- great technique for those just hoping to stay in the middle of them! I also ride in my english saddle or the western bucket in a balanced two point. The western version is, of course, a longer one, but I'm not always sitting on him while we canter or gallop.

Some of his problem comes from his possessing Ye Olde Warmblood Mind. That's a unique thing. I'll think about that more and summarize it in another post.

In any case, thanks for the fun and help.

[Lincoln]

A thread unto itself. I watched a young tb try her little heart out to find distances at BN last weekend, while Ye Young Fancee Warmblood spent the time looking for accolades for his beauty and athleticism wilst avoiding jumps like the plague.

Finding that precise point on the dial between dutiful and ditsy requires a great deal of precision. Perhaps variety is not the spice of this one's life - does going outside need to be very routine?

[2ndyrgal]

your horse sounds like an older and "slightly' more finished version of "Junior". Junior was originally a consignment horse that I decided to keep. A "Canadian Sporthorse" aka PMU baby, he's 1600lbs of muscle. Not much of that muscle is active brain, he doesn't have thoughts so much as opinions. He sees little need for multiple 20 meter circles, "ok, did that, did it ROUND and even, why are we doing this AGAIN???" "I do NOT need to change leads, I can canter either direction on either lead quite well, thanks for asking". "You asked me to jump, I jumped, 2'6" is not a jump, it's an anoyance, I just thought since we were jumping you wanted me to , you know, actually jump, and my idea of a REAL jump STARTS at about 4 ft". "Which by the way, I can trot". "
Today we had spring shots. "Junior" (who is 17+) saw my vet and "hid" in his stall. He stuck his horse face in the back corner, and went with the "I AM INVISBLE, if I don't make eye contact, you can't see me". When that didn't work, he made himself BIG. REALLY, REALLY BIG. My vet said "Jesus Christ, did that ****er grow so more??"

His canter in the arena? Stiff, and uncooperative if you ask him to be up in the bridle. Outside? Light as a feather, with underlying knowledge of having seen him really buck and knowing if he does, I'm coming off and it is a long, long way down.

Load in the trailer? Only if he's hungry.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

MVP, your horse sounds like my TB so much.

I am def. keeping an eye on this thread for suggestions as well.

Ground work really calms my guy so sometimes I just go out to the field and do groundwork for a good while.

I haven't quite worked out all of the riding quirks.

My instructor did mention going from side to side on the trail changing the bend and weaving to help him maintain focus. I haven't tested that yet.

[TBKate]

He should also stop when I come off. That happens every two years, no matter what-- my number just comes up. No problem. But one of you guys needs to come over, jump off him cowboy style and teach him to stop. I can't once we're disconnected.

Great posts! I love how much humor you're able to find in what is in all reality a very frustrating situation. As for the bucking, I've got nothing, b/c the way I fixed the Ye Olde Buckinge Warmbloode I dealt with was a dressage whip, spurs, and cantering (he wasn't really capable of galloping, big idiot) until he begged for mercy. Bucking ceased to be worth the effort. Sounds like your guy is a lot smarter than the one I worked with.

Regarding the falling off, however, I feel your pain. The first horse I leased was uncatchable in a field, and liked to dump his rider for no good reason. From then on I became adamant that should I execute an unplanned dismount, the horse should stop immediately. Preferably come back over and ask if I need a leg up. :yes:

Are you able to do an emergency dismount when it is *planned*? Could you work on that in the arena, starting say at the walk? Have a friend with a longe line and a chain walk with you, you ride along with your stirrups dropped, and hop off when he's not expecting it. Would that elicit the same lost marbles reaction from Mr. Smartypants? If so, working on it when YOU decide to dismount and with a ground person could help implant the rule that Mom on the ground=stop, plant feet and wait. You could work up to hopping off w/out the ground person, or hopping off in a larger area w/the ground person. Or are there any lesson monkeys in your barn you can get to do around the world on him at the trot and then leap off while you have the line and chain on him? That might work too. Just an idea.

[mvp]

It's a little tougher when their fit, happy and amped up because they have lower standards for their body and oxygen supply. Or these metabolically-efficient buggars have plenty, thank you very much.

I do like the "begging for mercy" strategy. So, find the long hill. Put them in that held-back canter that invites the frustrated buck. Then, sit down, growl and kick 'em forward. Say, "Oh really? Let's go then." When they say, "Oh, wait a sec. I'm getting tired." You say, "But you said you had plenty. Show me, sucker." When they say "No, seriously. I have changed my mind, that was a bad idea. I don't wanna kill you any more. I'm a changed horse," you walk back down to the bottom and do it again.

For those of you who have been to Woodside, that mile-long hill that parallels Sand Hill Road and conveniently gets steeper at the top is ideal. I just can't find one of these here in the sticks of NY where Horseboy and I reside at the moment. I'll look around.

If you can get this done on the helpful hill, I think you can communicate the idea that when they sull up, you growl and push, there is no end to the hard work that follows, whatever the topography.

As to the horse who should stop and pick you up after you have been dumped. I do want to try the cowboy technique I described in one of the early posts. There's no reason you can't do this at the walk and then trot, perhaps decreasing the odds that you'll have to tell the ER guys that you did this to yourself by jumping off your horse. I'm vain, so the less stupid I have to sound while I'm getting my horse broke, the better.

My horse is secure and mellow, so the most effective training for him includes the element of surprise. If I could scare him a bit by jumping off and have him run into a stud chain anchored by a long rope to me on the ground, I think it would make the desired, memorable impression. It would be nice if he didn't break his nose in the process. In any case, it's key that he gets to stand still and replay the tape of what just happened.

I did do this with the first shetland pony I broke back in the day. We rode in a huge cattle range, so I wasn't about to let go of the reins when I came off. He didn't like dragging me with this lips for any distance, so he learned PDQ to stop. The ratio of our weights and his smaller size, plus my youth tipped the odds in my favor. I'm not the favorite in this modern case.

Keep going you guys. Sooner or later they will get trained.

[Blugal]

Sooner or later they will get you trained.

Edited for clarity :lol:

[Bravestrom]

maybe some of these suggestions may help.

To train our young horses for road work and hacking we take them out for 10 to 15 minutes after every workout. That way they are already tired and have been focused.

And perhaps he doesn't like the different saddle.

So make your outdoor rides an extension of your indoor rides - start with longer insides and shorter outsides and then shift accordingly.

My horse loves his outdoor end to every ride. He knows that if the work is really good we will be done sooner and get to go for a hack - which he loves. I use them as rewards and we both really enjoy that.

[mvp]

prodomus-- good, reasonable and really fair-to-the-horse ideas. My older, pampered to the teeth horse has taken all this for granted and raised me one. So, with your permission, I'll take your post as an excuse....

When we departed for the Dressage or Death trail ride-- the "rock bottom" that told me my horse was both unmanageable and my higher power-- it started this way:

Western Pleasure, maybe crippled, maybe skeered horse went out, mincing along and looking. You had to kick him or (if the SPCA wasn't watching) spin the end of your split reins at him. He took that in stride and said I was merely "distracting" him from looking at the scenery and keeping track of the footing-- a multitasking job to be sure. It would, therefore, take longer to walk where we wanted. "Duh," he said, "Let me do it my way, in my own good time."

I said: "OMG, is Mamma's Precious Own Baby sore? Where? Just tell me! I'll do anything!"

"I know, I'm working on the $4K saddle, but I thought you more or less liked the western bucket worth 3K." In my defense, I am working on flying out the anatomist and material sciences engineer for the custom close-cell-foam pad to achieve the perfect fit between horse back and quality saddle.

"OMG, soft tissue issues? Let me get off right here and palpate your suspensories. Concentrate on what you feel. I know it's hard with deer and rabbits to watch, but try Sweetness, try!" It would suck to make a small problem into a 6-month stint in rehab. Can you imagine the therapy bill for his "recovery" from having the less-than-perfect mom? Let's limit this as best we can on the front end.

"OMG, bony changes? The dreaded navicular even though you are not an obvious candidate by conformation, breeding or shoeing history? Ringbone/sidebone that suddenly became too much? But you had a beer your world-class farrier last week! Did you get in a tiff with him? Do you want to talk about it?"

"Let's go back. I'll get my wallet. No, make that a thin credit card in the back pocket so that I don't damage your back any further and we'll take this trail ride to Cornell. Sky's the limit-- pictures of everything! And I can dial the NorCal psychic we used once from my cell on the way." Screw the 3 hour time difference and the already blown-up celly bill from the saddle hunt.

Turns out-- ouchie or not-- this horse can raise or lower his pain threshold at will. Apparently it jacks right up there when he has a point to make. At higher gaits, spring time, good footing, novel scenery, fitness plus bothersome demands from his rider, he sublimates pain quite nicely.

[evans36]

prodomus-- good, reasonable and really fair-to-the-horse ideas. My older, pampered to the teeth horse has taken all this for granted and raised me one. So, with your permission, I'll take your post as an excuse....

When we departed for the Dressage or Death trail ride-- the "rock bottom" that told me my horse was both unmanageable and my higher power-- it started this way:

Western Pleasure, maybe crippled, maybe skeered horse went out, mincing along and looking. You had to kick him or (if the SPCA wasn't watching) spin the end of your split reins at him. He took that in stride and said I was merely "distracting" him from looking at the scenery and keeping track of the footing-- a multitasking job to be sure. It would, therefore, take longer to walk where we wanted. "Duh," he said, "Let me do it my way, in my own good time."

I said: "OMG, is Mamma's Precious Own Baby sore? Where? Just tell me! I'll do anything!"

"I know, I'm working on the $4K saddle, but I thought you more or less liked the western bucket worth 3K." In my defense, I am working on flying out the anatomist and material sciences engineer for the custom close-cell-foam pad to achieve the perfect fit between horse back and quality saddle.

"OMG, soft tissue issues? Let me get off right here and palpate your suspensories. Concentrate on what you feel. I know it's hard with deer and rabbits to watch, but try Sweetness, try!" It would suck to make a small problem into a 6-month stint in rehab. Can you imagine the therapy bill for his "recovery" from having the less-than-perfect mom? Let's limit this as best we can on the front end.

"OMG, bony changes? The dreaded navicular even though you are not an obvious candidate by conformation, breeding or shoeing history? Ringbone/sidebone that suddenly became too much? But you had a beer your world-class farrier last week! Did you get in a tiff with him? Do you want to talk about it?"

"Let's go back. I'll get my wallet. No, make that a thin credit card in the back pocket so that I don't damage your back any further and we'll take this trail ride to Cornell. Sky's the limit-- pictures of everything! And I can dial the NorCal psychic we used once from my cell on the way." Screw the 3 hour time difference and the already blown-up celly bill from the saddle hunt.

Turns out-- ouchie or not-- this horse can raise or lower his pain threshold at will. Apparently it jacks right up there when he has a point to make. At higher gaits, spring time, good footing, novel scenery, fitness plus bothersome demands from his rider, he sublimates pain quite nicely.

Quoted for extreme truth. I think credit cards were made for poor horsepeople that always blame pain of some sort on their wayward mounts (not that it's not ever that way... but I really do believe that compliance in return for a cushy life should happen even in the face of minor pain).

I too rode ponies in a fenceless arena by the road as a child. I had more scrapes on my face from being drug than I could shake a stick at. True story - I had a teacher in the 4th grade who thought my parents beat me.

I really think that for the bucking issue, managing to just hang on and not getting angry or giving a reaction does SO much. Horses are creatures that seek for the path of least resistance, and if you don't change anything when they buck and they still have to do the job, odds are they're not going to buck anymore. Although I know your guy has more energy than he needs... but try just running right on through it. As for teaching him not to go anywhere when you fall... the emergency dismount is a great tool. I believe it's not just a cowboy thing... although the GM Bible is old, if I don't mistake myself he talks about the way to do it in there. Welcome back to Hunterland!

Alternatively - have you tried teaching him to drive? Just thinking that if you want to exercise him but he needs to be *doing* something, you could hitch him up to a larger version of a pony cart and play stagecoach :) I know, not really practical, but a great mental picture and I have always wanted to drive a chariot.

[chestnutmarebeware]

Great advice so far! I will add a caveat, however, to those like me who ride OTTBs—cantering in company can lead to spontaneous flashbacks to racing!

My OTTB gelding (3 years after retiring from racing, and not terribly fit) took exception to having a lumbering Percheron coming up on his tail, and decided that no draft horse was going to pass him!!!!! The Preakness was on! Used the pulley rein, anything I could think of....nothing slowed him. At a 90-degree dogleg in the trail, I bailed out, landed in a rock pile, and had Peter accidentally step once on my thigh and once on my ribcage. Ouch!!! Taught me a valuable lesson about cantering OTTBs in a group (At least in a big, fat snaffle)! :lol::lol::lol:

[frugalannie]

Sorry I didn't focus in on the running off after dumping rider issue before.

The venerable owner of the polo farm I rode for had, in his youth, spent summers on the famous Bell Ranch in New Mexico. As he put it, if you fell off your horse while out tending cattle or fences and the horse took off, nobody was ever going to find you again. You HAD to make sure your horse stuck around. He drummed into us to never, ever let go of the reins in a fall. After getting stepped on a few times, I decided this wasn't such a hot idea.

So my friend and I started to teach the horses to hang around if they saw us on the ground. We'd be leading them (halter and shank) and then we'd crumple in a heap. If they hadn't yanked our arms out in panic, we'd rattle peppermint wrappers or snap carrots to get their attention, and reward them when they came over to investigate. It got to where we could go out in the paddock (20 acres or so), fall to the ground and have a bunch of horses come over to check us out and get treats (a really good reason to get up quickly, BTW). It did seem to keep them around when we practiced emergency dismounts (always with treats in our pockets) and they would hang around when we fell off, so maybe that would be something to try before setting yourself up to be dragged around like a stunt cowboy

[lizathenag]

Many years ago we had been working cattle in the mountains all day and coming home my Dad's mare started jigging down the hill.

He turned and galloped her back up. the cattle dog ran with them.

this happened about 10 times. Finally the dog sat and watched with us

finally the mare walked down.

My Dad lectured us on the importance of proper horse handling.

Two days later she jigged down the hill again. . .

[Lori B]

frugalannie, that is the funniest thing I've read all day. Bwaa ha ha ha.

[mvp]

frugalanni-- you have a great solution I was too mean and righteous to think of.

For the dumper, why not carrot-- or mint-- rather than stick-- or chain?

This horse will sell you his soul for a peppermint. The sound of rustling plastic will lift him from the deepest coma. I'm sure he could see me crumple to the ground from far off.

So it makes sense that this horse could learn that "Rider Down!" meant "Miller Time!"

I'd look like a dork teaching him to stop and stay when I came off or collapsed, so the peeps at my barn (who are beer drinkers) could have a great time, too.

Thanks for the excellent idea. It might just work for this one.

[frugalannie]

Great! Make sure you shoot some video that you can post for us.

Eventers looooove Miller time!

[TBKate]

it makes sense that this horse could learn that "Rider Down!" meant "Miller Time!"

I'd look like a dork teaching him to stop and stay when I came off or collapsed, so the peeps at my barn (who are beer drinkers) could have a great time, too.

Thanks for the excellent idea. It might just work for this one.

Frugalannie has hit the crucial element! I love it! Hehehehe randomly blow his mind by hopping off while moving and then crumple in a heap of pepperminty goodness! The smartypants evil will be channeled for good through the all powerful tummy!:lol:

ETA that margaritas and lawn chairs are highly recommended for your barn buddies.:D Heck, you can all take turns falling down in the arena--that way he won't think it's just you, it's ANY rider who comes off!

[Ajierene]

Many years ago we had been working cattle in the mountains all day and coming home my Dad's mare started jigging down the hill.

He turned and galloped her back up. the cattle dog ran with them.

this happened about 10 times. Finally the dog sat and watched with us

finally the mare walked down.

My Dad lectured us on the importance of proper horse handling.

Two days later she jigged down the hill again. . .

HA! So much for 'proper horse handling' - from what I know of ranch horses, she was probably in way to good of shape for a few gallops to phase her for long.

[pony grandma]

ETA that margaritas and lawn chairs are highly recommended for your barn buddies.:D Heck, you can all take turns falling down in the arena--that way he won't think it's just you, it's ANY rider who comes off!

Now you're on to something. Who's making the training video? Hilarious.

This thread is developing very well!

[TBrescue]

Hmmm just wondering if your horse will learn to dump you so he can have a peppermint??? I can definitely see that backfiring with my beast....he's too smart for his own good! I can see him being a rodeo bronc, stopping once I hit the ground and coming over to search my pockets for mints as I lie broken on the ground!:yes::yes::yes:

[mvp]

Fortunately-- the sliver of a toe hold that allows me to ride this smart one is that he's really not mean. So while lots occurs to him, he doesn't think four steps ahead toward evil so much as four toward hedonism. If you make his pleasure line up with yours along the way, you'll do fine.

But the point about not setting up a situation that creates more fitness without making a point are right on. But he does need to experience fitness and spring and outside all together to learn how to handle it. We have done this every damned year since he was 4. It is getting better, but geez.

It's almost time to start the Ye Olde Warmbloode Minde thread. Someone needs to do it because it's really worthwhile getting a collective and definitive description of the way that TBs (or their mental type) and the classic warmblood differ.

[lstevenson]

It got to where we could go out in the paddock (20 acres or so), fall to the ground and have a bunch of horses come over to check us out and get treats (a really good reason to get up quickly, BTW.


:lol: I bet it would be! What a great visual.

[Jazzy Lady]

A true WB would sell their own legs for a peppermint. lol.

Hearts and brains follow food. They are the horse worlds' Labradors.