Over before we've begun? UPDATE! MRI results in. Post #23

[Petalstorm]

I am having a sad, bad day and need to vent and need input...

Yesterday I took my wonderful 6 year old WB/cross mare to the Vet. This is a mare that I have had since she was a two year old. She just finished winning her first two horse trials and has been coming together beautifully. My trainer had noticed that my mare had begun grinding her teeth and also noticed that she was jumping off to the right so we knew that this was something different for her and that there was something going on. Over the weekend she had been in an eventing clinic and had worked really hard so we knew that whatever was going on would really show up on the following Monday.

After a full lameness exam including flexions and a nerve block we found that she is sore all over the place; front feet, right stifle. Her radiographs show some changes and the start of ring bone. She has flattening on her stifle. She was sore on her lumbar area. The list seemed endless. My Vet suggested an MRI...and four months rest.

Obviously our season is over and I strongly suspect that this is the end of her barely begun career. If this is how she holds up to three months of work preparing for the season then what does the future hold? There are maintanance options, I know. But how much maintinance should a 6 year old take? Maybe we need to manage her very differently. We have been so carefull with her...

Any words of wisdon out there?

(cross posting here)

[Simkie]

I see you're in Colorado. Who's your vet? Who's your farrier? Why the MRI suggestion? Do they suspect soft tissue damage in the feet? I'm actually surprised no one suggested a bone scan.

I feel your pain. My horse is slightly older than yours and sound with a LOT of maintenance. Well, maybe...we did it all last year, and when she went lame again this year, I couldn't do it all again. So she's retired.

The "how much maintenance" is only something you can answer. How much do you want to spend? How much do you want to do? Where's YOUR line?

[Carolinadreamin']

Vent away! After a long 2 year delay due to stifle surgery, rehab, bringing him back to work, etc., our 8-yr old gelding finally completed his first schooling trial 2 weekends ago. We thought, whew, everything we went through with him was so worth it.

Today he was diagnosed with a torn suspensory (hind). We're looking at another year (or more) off, no guarantees of recovery. He's been out of work more than he's been in work since we've owned him. Don't know whether to laugh or cry at this point. In terms of care, we've given him the best. People have said if we could bubble wrap him, we would have. Looks like it was all for nothing. We sure do love him, though.

I'm terribly sorry about your mare's diagnosis. Perhaps hearing from others who are in the same boat (or worse!), may help?! Just venting helps as well.

[Petalstorm]

That's why I love this board. It's a godsend. You really need support at times like these.

I'm SO sorry to hear about your boy. It's really a heartbreak. Take care.

[Carolinadreamin']

Just out of curiosity (and some ignorance), what is making your mare sore all over? It's not just the ringbone, right? Did the vet shed any light on what else may be going on?

[Petalstorm]

He basically said that the rigors of eventing; jumping, turning, etc. are creating wear and tear on this mare and she isn't holding up to it.
She is also probably trying to get off of whatever is bothering her the most (my guess is the right stifle) and by doing so is over compensating elsewhere.

[Parker_Rider]

Petalstorm, I feel for you! Stifle issues in particular suck incredibly bad. Don't lose hope yet - we found my mare's stifle injury (torn collateral ligament) when she was 8 and a lloonnggg 4 year wait later, she's back to work. Not the promising A/O jumper career I'd had in mind for her, but she's a pretty awesome eq horse because her canter is the best I've ever sat. Your mare might not be able to go up to the ranks you'd hoped for her, but she'll probably have a great career ahead of her given some time to heal and some maintenance - injections are wonderful things, IMO ;)

I'm sorry you're having such a bad turn of events with her, I hope she recovers and is able to have a productive job!!!

ETA, CarolinaDreamin', sorry to hear about your guy's diagnosis as well :( Such big, fragile animals...

[Fharoah]

I know the pain of mystery lameness. Two years MRI, Xrays, legend, adequan more exams, more xrays my horse is 100% at trot, springs and floats like he used. He walks funny takes intermittent short strides that make him look lame at the walk? Sergeon/specialist comfirms him sound at the trot, even he can't say what he is doing at the walk. I can't aford a bone scan for curiosity. I have had horses for 26 years and have never seen a horse walk like this. This is my dream horse, a former hack winner, I am still trying to help him! Best wishes!

[Fharoah]

I see you're in Colorado. Who's your vet? Who's your farrier? Why the MRI suggestion? Do they suspect soft tissue damage in the feet? I'm actually surprised no one suggested a bone scan.

I feel your pain. My horse is slightly older than yours and sound with a LOT of maintenance. Well, maybe...we did it all last year, and when she went lame again this year, I couldn't do it all again. So she's retired.

The "how much maintenance" is only something you can answer. How much do you want to spend? How much do you want to do? Where's YOUR line?


I am so sad to hear this.

[Lucassb]

I am having a sad, bad day and need to vent and need input...

Yesterday I took my wonderful 6 year old WB/cross mare to the Vet. This is a mare that I have had since she was a two year old. She just finished winning her first two horse trials and has been coming together beautifully. My trainer had noticed that my mare had begun grinding her teeth and also noticed that she was jumping off to the right so we knew that this was something different for her and that there was something going on. Over the weekend she had been in an eventing clinic and had worked really hard so we knew that whatever was going on would really show up on the following Monday.

After a full lameness exam including flexions and a nerve block we found that she is sore all over the place; front feet, right stifle. Her radiographs show some changes and the start of ring bone. She has flattening on her stifle. She was sore on her lumbar area. The list seemed endless. My Vet suggested an MRI...and four months rest.

Obviously our season is over and I strongly suspect that this is the end of her barely begun career. If this is how she holds up to three months of work preparing for the season then what does the future hold? There are maintanance options, I know. But how much maintinance should a 6 year old take? Maybe we need to manage her very differently. We have been so carefull with her...

Any words of wisdon out there?

(cross posting here)

Six is pretty young for a warmblood; as careful as I am sure you were, it may just be a case of doing too much, too soon. If it were my horse, I might seriously consider tincture of time... turning the horse out for 4-6 months, then starting back with very light hacking and try to work up to a higher level of fitness *very* gradually. Generalized soreness is better, IMO, than a significant acute injury and is potentially something you can turn around. A good farrier and maybe some veterinary intervention can probably help you manage the ringbone issue and resolving that may help a LOT with the compensatory soreness, along with complementary therapies like massage, chiro etc.

Thomas1 on this BB has a really excellent program for fitting up horses without overly stressing them - you might want to get his program (available with a donation to the leukemia society he fundraises for) and seeing if it makes sense for your mare.

It may be that the mare will not hold up to really strenuous work but she may be very successful in a less demanding career. I hope things work out for you;

[mvp]

My vet isn't afraid of multiple problems and sites of soreness. He also considers the whole horse body. If you fix one part that you can, you might take stress off another part you can't fix quite as easily.

When he comes upon a case like this, he "peels the onion"-- treating the greatest/most easily diagnosed problem first, then moving to the next and so on.

Your mare's future depends on how much energy you want to put into diagnosis and maintenance. No right or wrong decisions, just a question of taste in horse experience and sometimes the thickness of your billfold.

[vxf111]

All I can say is "been there, done that" and I am sorry for you and your nice mare.

You're not the only one and it's not your fault. Sometimes the best care can't "fix" a horse whose body can't hold up for work. I have an OTTB I got when he was 4. He's 9 now. I tried everything, New Bolton multiple times, best sports medicine vet in the area-- spared no expense. I can't get him 100% and he doesn't hold up to even 2'6 hunters (not that he could every get trained all the way when it was always 1 step forward, 2 back with soundness issues). Some horses just aren't built for work :( mine has stifles issues (and plenty of other things). Had 'em when I bought him and they improved but never went away. At 9, he's now easily the most expensive horse I ever "bought" (when you lump in all the vet bills with his purchase cost-- I must have "paid" over $50,000 for this horse) and the biggest disappointment of my life. He just got his shoes pulled and he's now an expensive lawnmower. :(:(:(

Stifles SUCK. It bears repeating. Stifle issues SUCK.

Sorry for your bad news and also VERY sad to hear the bad news from Simkie and CarolinaDreamin' :(

[springer]

I feel your pain. My not even 2 yr old RPSI filly has been diagnosed with arthritis in her fetlock joint (due to an injury) so a performance career is pretty much out of the question for her. I guess I am just lucky she is a well-bred filly and may have a future as a broodmare.

[springer]

Forgot to add- Thomas1 is EXTREMELY knowledgeable when it comes to injuries and would probably be glad to give you some advice about your mare! He was very helpful to me; unfortunately too late for my filly

[Petstorejunkie]

He basically said that the rigors of eventing; jumping, turning, etc. are creating wear and tear on this mare and she isn't holding up to it.
She is also probably trying to get off of whatever is bothering her the most (my guess is the right stifle) and by doing so is over compensating elsewhere.
If she were my horse I would give her 6 months off, and when brought back into training do only dressage/flat work stuff. My personal training program is that i dont start any OF work with any horse until at least age 7. I know that's not the norm, but it was the norm 40+ years ago when the average eventer age was 17. Using this timeline of training i've had great success warding off lameness issues. My 15 year old tb that i have had for 9 years was just xrayed and has zero arthritis. i started him OF at 9 and started joint supplements the same time.
There may still be hope for your horse, but i think you'll have to adjust your goals.
I would also speak to the breeder, in case they are concerned with passing on this type of trait... if it is indeed genetic on some level.

[Watermark Farm]

You poor thing. I am so sorry.

I spent 2 years with a lame/NQR horse trying to find out what was wrong. Specialists, vets, radiographs, shoes, barefoot, chiropractors, bodyworker, Chinese medicine, herbs, nutrition. If I could do it all over again....I'd spring for a scan....in a heartbeat. Over 24 months, I spent more than $8,000 on vets and alternative therapies. An MRI may not give you a specific diagnosis, or even fix the problem, but I think it helps you bark up the right tree and give you some very good info that will save you time, money and heartache. I strongly encourage you to consider doing this and the pasture rest, a solid 6 months if possible. "Dr. Pasture" is very helpful!

A warmblood at 6 years old is still pretty immature. Mine grew 1 inch between 6 and 7. Also consider that some horses, like my draft cross, just aren't so superior genetically and may not be built for the long haul. Very sad, I know.

Have you had her teeth looked at? Really looked at? I've worked with a couple of horses who've had hind end problems that also had dental problems (one had abnormal molars and bone spavin at age 7). Again, that's where a more "whole body" diagnostic tool might help.

Hugs to you, and please know that you are not alone!

[Patty Stiller]

It is great that your vet looks at the whole horse, many veterinarians do not even consider the entire body. Treating the most obvious, easily diagnosed area of pain is certainly helpful in the short term but unless the deeper. ROOT of the at number of body issues is addressed, it will return.

I'm going to toss something out for you. . . VERY OFTEN whole horse issues, particularly in the back and hind end are originating as compensatory problems from hind hoof problems.

I would be doing some investigation there, looking first for a negative palmer angle of the coffin bone, and/or long toes.(they often go together) . Both will leverage and strain the coffin joint, impar ligament and navicular bone in the hind feet and the horse will compensate by improperly using his entire back end.
The ring bone is likely totally a seperate and coincidental issue , but it too may be manageable, with the right "hoofwear".

[grayarabpony]

Excellent post Patty Stiller.

[mvp]

If this were my mare, I'd have her shod to slow the progression of the ring bone now.

I'd turn her out for the four months. Too bad she didn't hold on until November, eh?

I'd also try to figure out if anything that warranted vet or chiro treatment was going on behind. In other words, are the stifle problems and lumbar soreness the result of this mare using her body wrong for some time to compensate for something else?

When I brought her back, I'd assume she had very, very weak stifles especially and do the walking up and walking (collected) down hill stifle-conditioning program. There are other things to do for weak stifles, of course.

She is young and probably physically immature since she is a WB. Time and, with luck, more strength will help her come back.

I'd bring her

[grayarabpony]

I'd also try to figure out if anything that warranted vet or chiro treatment was going on behind. In other words, are the stifle problems and lumbar soreness the result of this mare using her body wrong for some time to compensate for something else?



Negative coffin bone angles behind can cause serious stifle and SI soreness, on the way to causing overall body soreness. I agree with Patty about looking at the back feet.

[Petalstorm]

I really appreciate all of the input, folks. That's what I LOVE about this board. This board has been a beacon and has helped me to get through times like these. Thanks to all.

In regard to my mare, her back feet do look very different to me then they did when my regular farrier was doing her. My trainer had her farrier do my mare and her toes are quite a bit longer behind and not squared off at all, the way my NB farrier does her. She is getting the MRI on Friday morning and she will be reshod Friday afternoon. My regular farrier will do her. Maybe that will help her.

[onelanerode]

I'll echo Patty Stiller and grayarabpony.

Last year my mare had issues in her hindend that indicated something amiss with stifles or SI. Turns out it was almost certainly her trim (long toes, underrun heels) that caused it. I found a new trimmer (had a CJF before who just trimmed her) and changed her diet to make sure her nutritional needs were being met. She had ~10 months off to rest and grow (she was just 4). She's now coming back into work as a 5-year-old looking and moving better than she did when I bought her. I'm thrilled, she's happy, and life is good. :)

It's quite possible your horse's issues are not related to the feet, but having a good balanced trim and appropriate shoeing will only help—if nothing else, at least you will know that her trim/shoeing is not exacerbating any other issues she may have. So if you even think her trim/shoeing aren't what they should be, I'd definitely look at addressing that in conjunction with other diagnostics.

Good luck. :)

[Petalstorm]

Coffin joint synovitis...

So this is what my Vet told me was the finding on the MRI. We only had time for a quick chat as he was off to the airport. He said that he had read the report and that there weren't any tears or lesions and that he was encouraged by that. He suggested we continue to rest her for the other issues (right stifle, etc) and when he gets back, to inject her coffin joints. I am slso thinking Legend and Adequan.

What experience is out there in regard to this diagnosis?
Shoeing suggestions?

In the meantime, Panda is out in her paddock happy and beautiful.
She seems to be enjoying her time off!

[BornToRide]

Before injecting anything, I would take a long and very hard look at the current hoof form. Something is putting excess strain on that coffin joint. Do you have photos to share?