I tried to kick the farrier... *UPDATE* - New Farrier

[Private JD]

I'm a big guy (17h), and I'm an OTTB of consequence (aren't we all), so for the most part I expect the world to bend to my wishes. Otherwise I'm easy to get along with. But I've decided I don't like the farrier, and he just won't take the hint.

I had a farrier I liked just fine and my feet felt good, but my CEO (chief equine overseer) said he was just to unreliable about schedules, so in comes someone new. My feet still feel OK when we're finally done, but I just don't like the way he works on my feet, and lots of times shoes get set and reset in one visit. I try to stand still and give subtle hints that I'm not too happy, but sometimes I just have to grab my foot back and get the heck out of there. I've never been a model citizen, but I've never had this much trouble before.

Do you think the CEO should look for another farrier?

Seems there are three main things that can be wrong with a farrier 1) bad business - unreliable, or chronically late etc. 2) bad mojo - no horse sense even if feet look OK. and 3) bad feet - this of course is the one that can be a disaster. Would you risk 3 to replace 2? Would you take 1 over 2?

Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like?

[sketcher]

Well, if the CEO feels your farrier has no horse sense then there is no hope and no reason for her to hang onto him as you clearly aren't going to put up with it - being an OTTB of consequence.

But, if you are just to impatient to let your farrier-who-takes-a-little-longer-but does-good-work then you'd better watch out because the COE (Chief Enforcement Officer) might decide that you need to practice having your feet fussed with until behooves you (pun intended) to stand still and let the job be done.

[Tom Stovall]

Private JD in gray

I'm a big guy (17h), and I'm an OTTB of consequence (aren't we all), so for the most part I expect the world to bend to my wishes.

Nonsense! You are an owner attempting to make excuses for your horse's bad behavior.

Otherwise I'm easy to get along with. But I've decided I don't like the farrier, and he just won't take the hint.

Tell it like it is: the behavior of a horse is the responsibility of the owner, not the farrier.

I had a farrier I liked just fine and my feet felt good, but my CEO (chief equine overseer) said he was just to unreliable about schedules, so in comes someone new. My feet still feel OK when we're finally done, but I just don't like the way he works on my feet, and lots of times shoes get set and reset in one visit.

As an owner, your horse's behavior is YOUR responsibility, but you pay the bills. If you feel your new farrier is causing your horse to act like a spoiled rotten, ill-broke puke, get somebody else to shoe him. Be aware that the word gets out, farriers talk to one another, and if somebody farts in West Palm, they smell it in Indio.

I try to stand still and give subtle hints that I'm not too happy, but sometimes I just have to grab my foot back and get the heck out of there. I've never been a model citizen, but I've never had this much trouble before.

Since YOU are responsible for your horse's behavior, it's YOUR responsibility to accustom your horse to having its feet handled.

Do you think the CEO should look for another farrier?

Most likely, the farrier who had to put up with your horse's behavior thinks you should look for a trainer.

Seems there are three main things that can be wrong with a farrier 1) bad business - unreliable, or chronically late etc. 2) bad mojo - no horse sense even if feet look OK. and 3) bad feet - this of course is the one that can be a disaster. Would you risk 3 to replace 2? Would you take 1 over 2?

Most of us farriers are fairly good about keeping appointments, but none of us are in a hurry to get under an ill-broke puke with an owner who makes excuses for miscreant behavior instead of correcting that behavior. By all means, do your farrier a favor and fire him.

Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like?

As I see it, your new farrier must've needed to make a boat payment; otherwise, he would've quit you like a dirty habit for using such a lame excuse for your horse's unacceptable behavior. If you're going to make excuses for your obvious ineptitude, at least be be imaginative and entertaining. :)

[Lori B]

While the suggestion that the OP should look to the horse's training in this instance is not out of bounds, the totally snotty tone, IMHO, is. Any chance of giving it a rest, Mr. Stovall? Unless you are personally acquainted with the horse and owner, you don't actually know whether what you assert is in fact the case. I know, you're a farrier, been there, done that, blah blah blah. But wide experience is not actually a substitute for specific knowledge.

[Ibex]

It's totally possible for a horse to completly dislike a farrier. My youngster tried to kick the first farrier I had trim her (no, NOT ok), but I fired him over his reaction (hauling off and hitting an already upset 3yo with a HAMMER is also NOT ok thank-you-very-much).

The mare was brand new to me, and I assumed it was an undisclosed issue. Got a new farrier with a reputation for dealing calmly but firmly with youngsters. Guess what? She stands nicely on a slack lead rope while he works.

[HuntrJumpr]

We had one (an off-the-track-APPALOOSA of consequence. :P) that simply didn't like one farrier. He was great with all the previous and all the subsequent farriers, but he simply didn't like one farrier. Each farrier has a different way of everything - some ask for the hoof nicely whereas others pinch the fetlock, some pull their leg away from the body so they bend awkwardly at the knee, etc -- it makes sense that some horses simply don't like some farriers.

Our OTTAppy let that farrier know by fidgeting and pulling his foot away; the farrier disclosed his displeasure by jamming a rasp into the horses abdomen. We got a new farrier. Horse was fine, after we worked through the issues that followed the rough handling from the farrier-in-question. So I would replace the farrier - my opinion. Try out a new guy. I'd hate to count how many we've used over the nine years we've been at our current location. Some move, some retire, and some we pass on. We finally found one that is incredibly professional, does an excellent job, and who all three of our horses like (although, OTTAppy is no longer with the HuntrJumpr herd to voice his opinion).

[Seven-up]

Sounds like CEO needs to find farrier #4 (or #5 or #6, which ever one can do good work AND get along with OTTB) and OTTB needs a come to Jesus meeting. If he's 17h, he's already closer to Jesus than the short guys, so it shouldn't be that hard.

[luvmywalkers]

Private: I like your creativity in expressing a real problem.

Mr. Stovall: While I do not have this problem with my farrier, I do have 1 filly who will act up when a certain vet comes out for vaccinations - not our regular vet but her substitute. Some pros have better "bedside manners" than others.

[chism]

Private JD in gray
If you're going to make excuses for your obvious ineptitude, at least be be imaginative and entertaining. :)

I thought it was imaginative and entertaining. ;) Her horse could be ill-mannered, he could very well dislike the farrier as we all know they're not mutually exclusive. I enjoyed the post, though I'm glad he's not my horse.

[Tom Stovall]

Lori B in gray

While the suggestion that the OP should look to the horse's training in this instance is not out of bounds, the totally snotty tone, IMHO, is.

Did you read the title of the thread? While you may find my tone "snotty," my giveadamn is broke when it comes to folks making excuses for their horses' behavior. Despite the OP's anthropomorphic twaddle, there is absolutely NO excuse for a horse's engaging in any behaviors that are dangerous to a farrier. None. Zip. Nada.

Any chance of giving it a rest, Mr. Stovall?

Is there any chance of your understanding that the owner, not the farrier, is responsible for the horse's behavior? Any chance of your understanding that hematomas are no fun and broken bones will absolutely ruin a farrier's day?

Unless you are personally acquainted with the horse and owner, you don't actually know whether what you assert is in fact the case.

Please read the title of the thread, paying careful attention to the words "kick" and "AGAIN." What do you think the word "again" implies?

I know, you're a farrier, been there, done that, blah blah blah. But wide experience is not actually a substitute for specific knowledge.

In the title of her post, the OP admits her horse has engaged in a behavior that is extremely dangerous to a farrier more than once. Does her eye witness account of her horse's behavior offer the reader enough "specific knowledge" of the event; or, would a notarized affidavit be more to your liking? :)

[Lori B]

Insert eye roll here. Repeatedly.

I said that I agreed that the OP should address the horse's training. I took issue with your attitude and hostility. I am confirmed in my exasperation with said attitude. "Again" can mean a second time in 2 or 3 visits, or again could be 'repeatedly'. We don't know, cuz we weren't there. I don't claim omniscience. I realize that the presumption of omniscience is nearly a precondition for participation in a horse discussion board, but there you have it. I don't understand why OP deserves so much bile.

[JB]

I had a farrier I liked just fine and my feet felt good, but my CEO (chief equine overseer) said he was just to unreliable about schedules, so in comes someone new. My feet still feel OK when we're finally done, but I just don't like the way he works on my feet,

Feet felt good with F#1, and feet feel "ok" with F#2. Is "ok" not as good as "good"? If so, then no wonder the poor horse is looking to say "hay, things ain't right here".

and lots of times shoes get set and reset in one visit.
Huh? Every now and then I can understand - farrier puts the shoe on, looks at it, realizes it's not quite right, and resets it. But "lots of times"? Yes, I'd be looking for a new farrier.

Honestly, if the only thing that has changed is the person, and the horse goes from being behaved to not quite so, that doesn't seem to leave much room for interpretation.

It's NOT always the horse's fault! There are farrier's who crank the horse's leg up, and while a good horse might accept that for a time or two, for a short while, after a while, or enough times, he's going to take exception to being asked to play a huge balancing and soreness game - I'd be taking my foot and leaving too.

Constantly setting and resetting shoes isn't healthy for the foot. It's bad enough to have new nail holes made every 5-6 weeks, but having multiple sets made "lots of times" isn't acceptable. And no, I bet the same nail holes aren't being used, or there wouldn't have been any movement in the shoe which was presumably the cause of the reset to begin with.

I LOVE it when people try to tell a story from the horse's point of view :yes:

Lori - the ignore function is a good thing ;)

[mvp]

Private JD-- thanks for taking the time to write. Look, it would be easier on all of us if you could just "use your words" and TELL US whether your issue comes from pain (A), (B) the clearly and universally a-hole nature of All Farriers in general (more on that later), or (C) another idea about Who Calls the Shots in general.

A) If you hurt, almost all things are fair. Kicking is not. You know this, and would not expect to kick another horse with no blowback, so why do you think it will be different with a human? I'd cease and desist. Someday, you might meet the human who beats you at your game.

Snatching your foot back, with some warning is, I suppose "fair" though not the most generous you could be. Has your CEO really figured out if you hurt, what hurts and how to manage that? I'm sure she'd help things along if you could help her with some advice about how long to hold up one leg, or at the angles you like and don't.

B) All farriers are categorically heinous. You need to get a larger sample size before you expect anyone to buy your hype. But it's also just like going to the DMV. Even all people working at the counter in the DMV after you have been waiting in line for 3 hours are there just to sadistically torture people, your job is to be pleasant to you can get out of there alive. You need to open your mind a bit and try to behave better. In the long run (which you can't see) your life will be better if you approach the various people who handle you with a neutral attitude.

C) You Alone Call the Shots here because you do in all other corners of the universe. Someone needs to disabuse you of this fiction, pronto. Tall enough to be close to Jesus, you are also tall enough to meet Him if need be.

To the CEO. Screw the horse who doesn't "like" someone decent and competent. That can and ought to be corrected. I'd get the best farrier with a decent bedside manner, and then work on getting my horse to be more tolerant.

[Seven-up]

I loff my heinous farrier. I also loff Stovall in all of his heinous, crotchety glory. Then again, I ate a pill I found on the floor and now for some reason I feel like I loff everyone.:winkgrin:

[Tom Bloomer]

Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like?There's all sorts of things people make my horses do that they really don't like. Horsemanship is about getting horses to do stuff they don't want to do or don't like doing.

Even the most clueless fool can get a horse to do something it already likes to do or want's to do.

[Tom Stovall]

Lori B in gray, stuff deleted

I said that I agreed that the OP should address the horse's training. I took issue with your attitude and hostility.

If you value form more than content, you won't like my stuff.

I am confirmed in my exasperation with said attitude. "Again" can mean a second time in 2 or 3 visits, or again could be 'repeatedly'.

"Again" means "more than once." Do you feel any horse should be allowed to kick at a farrier more than once?

We don't know, cuz we weren't there.

We have the owner's eye witness account. We know it has happened more than once. Why is this significant?

I don't claim omniscience.

Strawman time?

I realize that the presumption of omniscience is nearly a precondition for participation in a horse discussion board, but there you have it.

You digress. While bludgeoning imaginary strawmen can be fun, it's rather pointless.

I don't understand why OP deserves so much bile.

No bile, just reality. There is NO excuse for a horse's kicking at a farrier. For various reasons, not every farrier gets along with every horse, but - as I suggested to the OP - if they're not getting along, that's the time to change farriers, it's not the time to make excuses for the horse's lack of training or engage in anthropormorphic fantasy.

[irishcas]

Nonsense! You are an owner attempting to make excuses for your horse's bad behavior.


Hey Tom:

I worked with a great farrier the other day. He has an apprentice who gets to trim the hinds and clinch/finish the fronts. At one barn the apprentice started working on an older horse, while the farrier and I were discussing the shoeing on another horse. Our backs were to the other horse. We hear a lot of dancing around and the apprentice groaning and moaning. We turn to see he has the hind hip cranked way out and way too high.

Farrier went over and chastised him, apprentice said it wasn't his fault. Farrier said I bet if I pick up his feet it won't happen and sure enough all went well.

So don't blame ALL ill manners on just poor training, which I'm sure you weren't :)

Not all farriers are horseman.

Kim Cassidy
NAF, AHA Member

[JB]

Farrier went over and chastised him, apprentice said it wasn't his fault. Farrier said I bet if I pick up his feet it won't happen and sure enough all went well.
My point exactly :)

So don't blame ALL ill manners on just poor training, which I'm sure you weren't :)
you sure? ;)

Not all farriers are horseman.

Amen. Many have nothing to do with horses outside the feet.

[Daydream Believer]

I will agree with Tom S that more often than not, it is the horse who needs work and not the farrier/trimmer who are at fault. I do a couple who I'd not miss either if I were to be fired...they are tough, naughty, sling me around like a rag and the owners are oblivious to their bad manners no matter how much I suggest that they work with the horses on their issues.

I do also agree that sometimes a farrier's manner or style can be a problem sometimes but kicking the farrier is NEVER acceptable behavior from any horse. The OP needs to realize that if her horse is that badly behaved, she may be looking for a new farrier soon anyway. I would not put up with that from a horse for long either and no farrier should have to risk major injury just to work on someone's horse.

I wanted to add also that if this sort of resistance is new for your horse, you should also look for a possible physical cause...soreness, etc... Many of the older horses I do are much happier with a gram of bute before the farrier comes...as it's hard for them to hold their legs up with the joints bent sometimes. Next time the farrier comes, try giving him some bute ahead of time and see if makes a difference.

[JHUshoer20]

Constantly setting and resetting shoes isn't healthy for the foot. It's bad enough to have new nail holes made every 5-6 weeks, but having multiple sets made "lots of times" isn't acceptable. And no, I bet the same nail holes aren't being used, or there wouldn't have been any movement in the shoe which was presumably the cause of the reset to begin with.
Am surprised BornToRide hasn't weighed in on this one yet. Just what in the world does this BUA crap have to do with an ill broke puke? As usual Mr Stovall is right.

Some years ago I spoke to a couple of guys who had just returned from the AFA's exchange program in England. They said the Brits considered it an insultto their horsemanship if a horse didn't stand to be shod. I agree with that point of view and wish it would trickle across the pond:mad:
George

[Boomer]

It's totally possible for a horse to completly dislike a farrier....

My gelding doesn't like one of the vets in the area, but he will stand still to get his shots if I call her to do them. Vet is not a bad vet, but just has a very hyperactive personality which makes my guy nervous.

[BuddyRoo]

I'm not as creative as you all yet...only had one cup of coffee and put out three fires....my apologies in advance.

1) Behavior/training issue...I think that's been covered.

2) Farrier issue: In the course of having horses for many years and having trimmed a few over the last year and a half, I think it's reasonable to say that horses do have preferences when it comes to how they're being handled, held, worked on, all with varying degrees of patience.

I had a great farrier with an equally lovely apprentice coming out for some time to do mine. Farrier liked bringing apprentice to do my horses because they were quite well behaved and patient. It gave farrier an opportunity to teach without being rushed and a chance for apprentice to practice without being rushed. To trim 2 horses often took 2 hours. My girls had patience.

BUT, one of the things apprentice quickly realized was that he often was cranking a foot out and making things uncomfortable for the horse. When he got under the horse more, horse would stand even better.

Another thing he learned was that giving appropriate support helped. One of my mares really likes to feel "solid"...Even if I use the hoof jack on her hinds where she can just rest there, she seems to prefer that I hold the hoof snugly with a knee while I work. She'll still stand without it...but she does better with it.

Between my two--one prefers to have hinds held at a different height than the other. One prefers me to hold the fronts between my knees while the other prefers to rest in the cradle of the jack.

There are certainly preferences that can make the whole experience more comfortable.

Still...kicking out is not acceptable.

If I were the OP, I would choose the farrier who can do the best job on the feet. I would observe what's happening immediately prior to a kick out or pull away. Then I would try to recreate that situation at home on my own time and correct it. Either figure out what is a better position or do enough repetitions that horse realizes that we're just plain gonna do it this way.

And...please keep in mind, it's hard work being under a horse--often in rather compromising situations. Personally, if someone asked me to trim a horse and I showed up and it was kicking or pulling away the whole time? I'd reschedule for another day and ask them to work with their horse. I don't want to get hurt for lack of manners.

[asanders]

Tom, you never fail to hit a nerve (--yes, I guess that is supposed to be a farrier joke).

I'm not sure if my horses would love or hate you, but I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

No, horses should not kick farriers (or anyone --I'm not sure wheter farriers are at the top or bottom of the list ;)).

OTOH, I've come accross vets that were scared of horses, farriers that maybe needed a change in medication (not a farrier joke, a real person with real medication), grooms, hot walkers, etc. etc. that just did not get along with some group of horses. Just as I've seen some horses that would get along with/put up with anyone, and a few that didn't get along with anyone.

Tom, you may really have never met a horse that didn't like you enough to be ill-behaved, but do you really think there aren't successful farriers out there whose work is good enough, but who have a horse-side manner that is not? Just like doctors, dentists, etc. I'm sure some of them never realize that it is them; they just figure they run accross a slightly larger percentage of 'bad' patients. Of course, Tom, I think you always know when you are being abrasive :lol:

There have been some similar threads, but maybe Tom or others can add here: If you have a horse that is generally fine, gets their feet handled daily without incident, but objects to something the farrier does by kicking out, how exactly do you try to fix that between visits? Of course you use correction at the time of any incident, but you seem to argue that no incident should ever happen. Are you saying that a well trained horse will just never do anything on the 'bad' list no matter what, and that is what makes them well trained? Are the owners of any horse that does not stand perfectly for you in denial about their 'children's' behavior?

ETA: after reading BuddyRoo's post, I'll add this question: do you 'expect' every horse to stand perfectly period, and anything outside of that is a behavior intolerable? Is there a difference between kicking out and kicking at? or is any pulling away the hind foot, which is naturally followed by down and out motion but without force still just out of bounds behavior? Is there such a thing as a misdemeanor vs. a felony?

For me, I actually think I give less slack to babies because I want them to see clear distinctions between right behavior and wrong behavior, but I know I don't continue this way with older horses because the situations become more complex; how perfect do you expect their first combination line to be to get praise vs. chastisement?

As for this horse: Did the horse really not have any problem with previous farriers? what about other horses in the barn?

[JB]

Am surprised Born to Be Right hasn't weighed in on this one yet. Just what in the world does this BUA crap have to do with an ill broke puke? As usual Mr Stovall is right.
I shouldn't even respond to you, but I can't help myself.

WHAT BUA CRAP??? Nowhere have I said shoes are bad. I don't think any good farrier will say nail holes are a GOOD thing. Necessary? Absolutely, when there are shoes involved. Do YOU think that a set and a reset, as a regular occurence, for one horse, is a good thing?

Now I'll go back to wishing I'd never responded to you.

[JB]

Another thing he learned was that giving appropriate support helped. One of my mares really likes to feel "solid"...Even if I use the hoof jack on her hinds where she can just rest there, she seems to prefer that I hold the hoof snugly with a knee while I work. She'll still stand without it...but she does better with it.
My TB mare is the same way - she will comply nicely if I just have my hand holding her foot to pick it out, but she's obviously more comfortable, *mentally*, if I also rest her foot against my leg.

We do all sorts of things to horses that they don't go asking us to do. Yes, they need to accept most of them and be at least safe. But by the same toke, because we are *forcing* these things on the horse, we need to make sure we are asking them to do these things in the most comfortable manner possible, mentally and physically.

[JB]

One more thing, in case anyone has realized they didn't read the OP correctly:

but sometimes I just have to grab my foot back and get the heck out of there.

Grabbing the foot back is NOT the same thing as kicking out or kicking at the farrier.

[BuddyRoo]

Grabbing the foot back is NOT the same thing as kicking out or kicking at the farrier.

I'd agree that it is not...but it's really no less dangerous...especially if you're shoeing and just drove nails in. Ever had your hand raked wide open like that? It hurts. A lot.

Please take all that I'm saying with a grain of salt as I'm not a farrier and I don't do outside horses except in the case of my farrier friend being injured. I've done some of hers. That's the extent of it. I would contemplate doing a horse for a friend who couldn't afford a farrier or in some sort of emergent situation...but generally beyond ability level, what keeps me from wanting to do it is the "getting hurt by ill behaved horses" thing.

With my girls...*I* know that *They* know what I expect of them which is compliance and standing still. I don't allow them to pull away and should one get fidgety and start doing stupid things, I make a pretty swift and major correction.

That said, I do try my best to cater to their preferences in how or where I hold their hoof and I do work quickly as possible. All I'm asking is for 15-20 minutes of their good behavior. I expect it and I usually get it. When I don't, I correct. Whether it's me under the horse or someone else, I want everyone to be safe.

[JHUshoer20]

Constantly setting and resetting shoes isn't healthy for the foot. It's bad enough to have new nail holes made every 5-6 weeks, but having multiple sets made "lots of times" isn't acceptable. And no, I bet the same nail holes aren't being used, or there wouldn't have been any movement in the shoe which was presumably the cause of the reset to begin with.


I shouldn't even respond to you, but I can't help myself. Notice the contradictions in red

WHAT BUA CRAP??? Nowhere have I said shoes are bad. I don't think any good farrier will say nail holes are a GOOD thing. Necessary? Absolutely, when there are shoes involved. Do YOU think that a set and a reset, as a regular occurence, for one horse, is a good thing? When it helps the animal to do whatever it does the best it can yes. Absolutely. Properly applied horseshoes have never harmed any horse. Not now not ever.

Now I'll go back to wishing I'd never responded to you.
If wishes were horses.......
I thought you had me on ignore:D
George

[JB]

I'd agree that it is not...but it's really no less dangerous...especially if you're shoeing and just drove nails in. Ever had your hand raked wide open like that? It hurts. A lot.
I totally understand what you're saying. But there is a lot of "you need to train your horse better" being flung around here, as if the horse was actively trying to kick the farrier. If something has been done to hurt the horse, either acutely, or because he's had his leg cranked high and out for long enough, is it fair to ask the horse to just endure and not speak out? My old farrier was well aware my TB gelding has arthritis - RH worse than LH. He and I talked several times about putting the LH down frequently to allow the RH to take a break. One day he ignored that, and that LH was up for a long time - shoe was pulled, foot was trimmed, stock shoe was pre-fitted. All that time, no break. Right about then my horse, who was an absolute SAINT, made it known that enough was enough, and he literally stood on the farrier's knee to get weight off his RH which must have just been about ready to collapse by then.

Hardly the horse's fault.

what keeps me from wanting to do it is the "getting hurt by ill behaved horses" thing.
Agree, that's why I could never do this for a living, or more than a friend's horse or two to help out. I've already done the "favors" with a few horses who thought nothing of just taking their leg, dramatically, every 5-10 seconds, no matter how low to the ground and under the body I was holding them. Life's too short and my back is too tweaked to deal with that.

[JB]

Notice the contradictions in red
Where is the contradiction? Are you saying that it's find and good to have a set *and* a reset, in the same shoeing, not just once, but frequently? I am saying it is NOT healthy for the foot to have a shoe nailed on, pulled, re-nailed, in the same day, and to have that happen as a regular occurrence. Does it happen occasionally? You bet, and if it's the case that the farrier decided the shoe was on crooked, then I'd expect the shoe to be pulled and re-set. That's not what the OP has implied though.

When it helps the animal to do whatever it does the best it can yes. Pay attention to the question. I didn't ask if a shoe was good for a given horse/situation. I didn't ask if a nail hole was benign. I asked if a nail hole was GOOD.

Absolutely. Properly applied horseshoes have never harmed any horse. Not now not ever.Did I say they did?

[jaimebaker]

Well, just wanted to toss out there, I've had horses that were great for some farriers and not for others. I have some that are perfect one day, and not the next. My farrier is short. My horses are short. They love my farrier. I've seen some farriers get under horses and jack their damn legs up and then get pissed when the horse starts fidgeting from being uncomfortable. Or yank a front leg out. Not all farriers are created equal. So, yes, some horses will behave differently. And for those saying 'well the horse needs to be corrected', I REALLY gotta ask...just what kind of correction are you doing with a farrier under the horse???? I'm sorry, but out of respect for my farrier, I'm not going to yank and whack on a horse when' he's under them. You've only got 3 seconds to get your point across or the horse isn't gonna get it. Are you gonna say 'put the hoof down so I can 'correct' the horse?? And this is all going to happen so the horse gets it? Oh please, tell me just exactly what kind of correction is being done.


I have a stallion that hated men. I came over to this board asking for female farriers and got blasted saying I needed to train the horse to stand better for male farriers and it was all my fault...blah blah blah. The horse stood fine for me with NO PROBLEMS, so there wasn't any 'training' I could do unless I wanted to grow a set of balls and become a man. I found a female farrier that the horse loved. When she retired I had no other option but to go with a male farrier. Fortunately, the horse loves this guy. But I went through 2 other men that he hated and simply would not stand for. He's actually the best behaved one out of the bunch now. None of them are jerks, but he's the one that can't wait to have his hooves trimmed:lol: So, I'm gonna disagree with everyone saying the OP needs to retrain the horse. Some horses just don't jive with some people.

[luvmywalkers]

Would this be the right place to say: "I really, absolutely love my trimmer"?

I'm so very thankful that he understands that my 31-year old mare with arthritis needs to rebalance every now and then. He finds it perfectly reasonable when one of them tries to pull back a leg when a horsefly lands on them. He knows that a 2-year old stud colt may try on occasion to see who's the boss. He has no issues with a mare who just not wants to be in the crosstries; a leadrope over her back does just fine.

Mike, if you read this: Thanks for being you!

[Tom Stovall]

asanders in gray, stuff deleted

OTOH, I've come accross vets that were scared of horses, farriers that maybe needed a change in medication (not a farrier joke, a real person with real medication), grooms, hot walkers, etc. etc. that just did not get along with some group of horses. Just as I've seen some horses that would get along with/put up with anyone, and a few that didn't get along with anyone.

We all have our little idiosyncratic differences.

Tom, you may really have never met a horse that didn't like you enough to be ill-behaved, but do you really think there aren't successful farriers out there whose work is good enough, but who have a horse-side manner that is not? Just like doctors, dentists, etc. I'm sure some of them never realize that it is them; they just figure they run accross a slightly larger percentage of 'bad' patients. Of course, Tom, I think you always know when you are being abrasive :lol:

I've taught folks ranging from 4-H kids to vet students how to get under a horse and the hardest thing to get across is Rule Number One: MAKE THE HORSE, NOT YOURSELF, COMFORTABLE. Generally, this means that when you're under a horse, you act as if there's a $100 bill directly under your butt, you're broke and you really want to pick it up, but you can't get out from under the horse and you can't use your hands, arms, feet, legs, or teeth to pick it up.

Your have to bend your knees!

Rule Number Two: KEEP YOUR BUTT AWAY FROM THE HORSE AND HE WON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO LEAN ON!

(As soon as they get under a horse and comply with this advice, the students generally develop a much greater respect for their instructor, because if you don't do it pretty regular, this posture will hurt like hell after a minute or two.) :)

I've seen folks advise using a hoof cradle for to get under a hind, and that's generally good advice, but it doesn't work when a horse is really sore because it still takes the hoof back instead of allowing it to remain directly under the hip, with the reciprocal apparatus in neutral. Generally speaking, if you're working on a hind, the most comfortable stance for the horse mimics his standing hipshot and it's sometimes necessary to work on such a horse with his toe tilted upwards and the dorsum of his hoof resting atop YOUR foot. Flexibility is a plus when you work on cripples.

There have been some similar threads, but maybe Tom or others can add here: If you have a horse that is generally fine, gets their feet handled daily without incident, but objects to something the farrier does by kicking out, how exactly do you try to fix that between visits? Of course you use correction at the time of any incident, but you seem to argue that no incident should ever happen. Are you saying that a well trained horse will just never do anything on the 'bad' list no matter what, and that is what makes them well trained? Are the owners of any horse that does not stand perfectly for you in denial about their 'children's' behavior?

Like most experienced farriers, I'm dedicated to Rules Numbers One and Two because they're simply the best and safest way to get under a horse and they take away any possibility of the horse's having a reason to act the fool. Again, like most experienced farriers, I don't give horses anything to lean on and I don't take horses up too high, out too far, or back too far; so, if a horse comes unspooled when I'm under him, it's ALWAYS because he not properly trained to having his feet handled!

ETA: after reading BuddyRoo's post, I'll add this question: do you 'expect' every horse to stand perfectly period, and anything outside of that is a behavior intolerable? Is there a difference between kicking out and kicking at? or is any pulling away the hind foot, which is naturally followed by down and out motion but without force still just out of bounds behavior? Is there such a thing as a misdemeanor vs. a felony?

Horses being horses, they don't all stand like shot puppies and misdemeanors are part of the deal - some of misdemeanors, like straining or leaning are not usually even worth a vocal response - but the Big Three (kick, bite, strike) are felonies and absolutely cannot be tolerated because the have the potential to cause serious injury, even death.

[Tom Stovall]

JB in gray

One more thing, in case anyone has realized they didn't read the OP correctly:

Grabbing the foot back is NOT the same thing as kicking out or kicking at the farrier.

As far as I know, no one has either said or implied that pulling away is the same thing as kicking out, at, up, etc.; however, the OP's title of this thread strongly suggests her horse was trying to KICK THE FARRIER AGAIN, as in, more than once. :)

[katarine]

If your farrier shoes as Tom described- and the horse will not stick around for shoeing, it most certainly is one of two things- pain, or training.

Example: gelding with puffy hind pasterns. Cannot tolerate trimming his hinds. Never offers to kick, but does want to leave. Solution? Joint injections. Horse is 100% fine with the same farrier.

Rule out and deal with pain.
Then, deal with training.

Pulling away is entirely different from kicking. If the OP doesn't know that, meh, good luck getting a farrier to think it's a cute (insert breed or job description) trait.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=katarine;4091506]If your farrier shoes as Tom described- and the horse will not stick around for shoeing, it most certainly is one of two things- pain, or training.

the thing in all of it that stuck out for me was the part about multiple shoe resets in one session...

even very good horses can get resentful of nailing in to a foot...if the nails are being driven and then pulled and re-driven repeatedly,I can see where an annoyance level could build up...

and jerking away a foot full of not yet nipped and clinched nails could be as dangerous as taking a swat at someone....

the horse must not kick...period....however the team needs to determine the next step together


best

[grayarabpony]

I loff my heinous farrier. I also loff Stovall in all of his heinous, crotchety glory. Then again, I ate a pill I found on the floor and now for some reason I feel like I loff everyone.:winkgrin:

I want one of those pills!

[katarine]

[QUOTE]

the thing in all of it that stuck out for me was the part about multiple shoe resets in one session...

even very good horses can get resentful of nailing in to a foot...if the nails are being driven and then pulled and re-driven repeatedly,I can see where an annoyance level could build up...


best

agreed- so let's edit mine to say 'train the farrier', too.

I missed that the horse is getting -essentially-shod and reshod multiple times? What part of shape it til it's right THEN nail it, does said "Hoof Care Provider", not get ?

[Private JD]

Tom, I should probably retitle this thread "I got fed up with my shoer again", but the tendancy in this barn is to put the blame on the horse first and not the farrier. Things just don't seem right, hence the thread.

I have never kicked a farrier. I have forcably removed my foot from his grasp, and tried to make it clear that I did not wish to give it back, but when this is met with "do it anyway", I have complied and have the shoes to prove it.

I got on fine with the farrier before this (and, I think, every other farrier I known).

I'm far from the first, and I'll probably not be the last OTTB around here, and the CEO is no dummy; I'm not un-trained. If I'd claimed to be a saint, you wouldn't have believed it anyway. I'm 6; I have my momonents, and I have been told I have an even shorter than average attention span.

I don't know why I find it impossible to stand still for this farrier. I'm not lame and I have fairly good conformation. I am out of work, but I have been out of work for some time, and like I said, I got on with the last farrier just fine.

Tom, if you weren't so sure I was a lousy hunk of walking dog food, I'd wish you were my farrier. I'd probably stand for you just fine. I don't want to be on the farrier black list (which as you point out really does exist), and I don't like switching around, I just wondered if others had made a farrier change based on the perceived 'wishes' of the horses rather than a problem with the results or anything else.

[decorum]

I'm not lame and I have fairly good conformation. I am out of work, but I have been out of work for some time, and like I said, I got on with the last farrier just fine.

Are the shoes for therapeutic reasons then? Just wondering, haven't been in work for some time and still shod all around even the the horse is not patient with shoeing and all. You say he is sound so I am assuming they aren't needed for therapeutic reasons? :winkgrin:

Ann Szolas

[JB]

agreed- so let's edit mine to say 'train the farrier', too.

I missed that the horse is getting -essentially-shod and reshod multiple times? What part of shape it til it's right THEN nail it, does said "Hoof Care Provider", not get ?

...and what part of "nail the shoe on correctly the first time, as in, straight" does said HCP not get? ;)

[BornToRide]

[edit]

I very much agree with others here, kicking is not OK - period. A horse has plenty of other means to let the person know he's displeased about something, like pulling the leg away or hitting the HCP with the tail.

If a horse resorts to such action, I would definitely explore possible body issues or how the leg is held, but also approach it as a training issue at the same time. My horse never kicked, but he was extremely fidgety when he got his hinds done by his former farrier. Turns out he had mild EPSM symptoms at the time. The problem completely resolved when his diet was changed.

[Private JD]

Are the shoes for therapeutic reasons then? Just wondering, haven't been in work for some time and still shod all around even the the horse is not patient with shoeing and all. You say he is sound so I am assuming they aren't needed for therapeutic reasons? :winkgrin:

Ann Szolas

Plain flat shoes in front only.
Out of work = light work, not no work, and shoes in front keep feet looking better. I like wearing shoes. Please don't anyone make this a thread about shoes (or lack thereof).

Also, this farrier has been out only 3-4 times. I only have two shoes, they are the only two shoes set here. It seems like at least 1 of those 2 shoes has been nailed (at least started), followed by "no, I don't like that" and started over, but we're not talking about somebody having reset dozens of shoes or anything. I only have a few feet to go by, it just seems like a high percentage.

Part of the problem is that I was overdue the first time he came (part of the reason for the change), so longish feet + new farrier + long time since I saw a farrier = things didn't go perfectly and it was attributed to those factors, not the farrier (or me). 2nd - 4th visits were maybe marginally better, but (obviously) not perfect. Do you expect things to improve (does the farrier need to 'get to know' your horses), or do you expect things just so right out of the box?

[Queen Latisha]

Private JD in gray

I'm a big guy (17h), and I'm an OTTB of consequence (aren't we all), so for the most part I expect the world to bend to my wishes.

Nonsense! You are an owner attempting to make excuses for your horse's bad behavior.

Otherwise I'm easy to get along with. But I've decided I don't like the farrier, and he just won't take the hint.

Tell it like it is: the behavior of a horse is the responsibility of the owner, not the farrier.

I had a farrier I liked just fine and my feet felt good, but my CEO (chief equine overseer) said he was just to unreliable about schedules, so in comes someone new. My feet still feel OK when we're finally done, but I just don't like the way he works on my feet, and lots of times shoes get set and reset in one visit.

As an owner, your horse's behavior is YOUR responsibility, but you pay the bills. If you feel your new farrier is causing your horse to act like a spoiled rotten, ill-broke puke, get somebody else to shoe him. Be aware that the word gets out, farriers talk to one another, and if somebody farts in West Palm, they smell it in Indio.

I try to stand still and give subtle hints that I'm not too happy, but sometimes I just have to grab my foot back and get the heck out of there. I've never been a model citizen, but I've never had this much trouble before.

Since YOU are responsible for your horse's behavior, it's YOUR responsibility to accustom your horse to having its feet handled.

Do you think the CEO should look for another farrier?

Most likely, the farrier who had to put up with your horse's behavior thinks you should look for a trainer.

Seems there are three main things that can be wrong with a farrier 1) bad business - unreliable, or chronically late etc. 2) bad mojo - no horse sense even if feet look OK. and 3) bad feet - this of course is the one that can be a disaster. Would you risk 3 to replace 2? Would you take 1 over 2?

Most of us farriers are fairly good about keeping appointments, but none of us are in a hurry to get under an ill-broke puke with an owner who makes excuses for miscreant behavior instead of correcting that behavior. By all means, do your farrier a favor and fire him.

Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like?

As I see it, your new farrier must've needed to make a boat payment; otherwise, he would've quit you like a dirty habit for using such a lame excuse for your horse's unacceptable behavior. If you're going to make excuses for your obvious ineptitude, at least be be imaginative and entertaining. :)

Jeez, give it a rest. Why do you take every comment about farriers personally?

[JB]

I very much agree with others here, kicking is not OK - period. A horse has plenty of other means to let the person know he's displeased about something, like pulling the leg away or hitting the HCP with the tail.

Not that the OP did this, so please don't think I'm saying that :)

But sometimes, if a horse resorts to kicking, it's because someone/somebodies around him missed his progressively increasing warning signs that something was not right, and failed to prevent/abort the kick. Horse's cannot utter human words, they have horse language, and we humans need to be paying attention to what they are saying :)

Does that make kicking acceptable? Not really, though I certainly do NOT fault the horse in that infamous branding video for blasting the brander! :eek::eek::no: But if we put the horse in a situation where he has to be telling us something is hurting, he can only be polite for so long in trying to say "hey, hey, hey, hey, hey..."

[Thomas_1]

I'm a big guy (17h), and I'm an OTTB of consequence (aren't we all), so for the most part I expect the world to bend to my wishes. Otherwise I'm easy to get along with. But I've decided I don't like the farrier, and he just won't take the hint.

I had a farrier I liked just fine and my feet felt good, but my CEO (chief equine overseer) said he was just to unreliable about schedules, so in comes someone new. My feet still feel OK when we're finally done, but I just don't like the way he works on my feet, and lots of times shoes get set and reset in one visit. I try to stand still and give subtle hints that I'm not too happy, but sometimes I just have to grab my foot back and get the heck out of there. I've never been a model citizen, but I've never had this much trouble before.

Do you think the CEO should look for another farrier?

Seems there are three main things that can be wrong with a farrier 1) bad business - unreliable, or chronically late etc. 2) bad mojo - no horse sense even if feet look OK. and 3) bad feet - this of course is the one that can be a disaster. Would you risk 3 to replace 2? Would you take 1 over 2?

Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like? Sounds to me like you need to find a horse trainer rather than a farrier.

They'll help you by:

1) Training your horse to behave and stand politely for the farrier

2) Handling your horse and presenting it properly for the farrier

3) Keeping your farrier safe from said ill trained spoilt horse

3) Showing you what to do and what to expect and what to look out for

[Tom Stovall]

Queen Latisha

Jeez, give it a rest. Why do you take every comment about farriers personally?

Aside from the usual mindless nonsense emanating from the "shoe bad/trim good" lunatic fringe, I don't mind seeing a farrier - or anybody else - bashed when I think it's deserved. Lord knows, I've done it myself; however, the title of this thread suggests it wasn't deserved because THERE IS NEVER ANY EXCUSE FOR A HORSE'S KICKING!

Since her original post, the OP has said there was no kicking, just pulling away with a reluctance to give the hoof back, which is still a training issue, but not nearly as serious as some puke's trying to take the farrier's head off.

If you continue to find my humble comments to be offputting, please put me in your kill file: I certainly won't mind, and you'll save yourself some useless angst. :)

[Xanthoria]

Originally Posted by Seven-up http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4090242#post4090242)
I loff my heinous farrier. I also loff Stovall in all of his heinous, crotchety glory. Then again, I ate a pill I found on the floor and now for some reason I feel like I loff everyone.:winkgrin:


I want one of those pills!

Just hit the "ignore" button, and you'll never have to see another snarky, snippy post from one of those oh-so-special posters again! :D

[Tom Stovall]

Private JD in gray, stuff deleted

I got on fine with the farrier before this (and, I think, every other farrier I known).

I don't know why I find it impossible to stand still for this farrier. I'm not lame and I have fairly good conformation. I am out of work, but I have been out of work for some time, and like I said, I got on with the last farrier just fine.

I strongly suggest you get yourself another farrier, for whatever reason - probably related to position and speed - this'n ain't a good fit.

I don't want to be on the farrier black list (which as you point out really does exist), and I don't like switching around, I just wondered if others had made a farrier change based on the perceived 'wishes' of the horses rather than a problem with the results or anything else.

I appreciate your candor and I apologize for going off on you - in my defense, your title threw me.

That said, I really think it would be in your horse's best interest if you found yourself another farrier. I don't know where you are or what you do with your horse, but you might try the AFA office for a list of CFs and CJFs in your area; if you're anywhere near DelMarVa, the Guild has some excellent farriers in that area; if you're in Texas, the TPFA has a website full of good farriers; back East, Mr. Geist can help you find somebody. If you're in or near any major urban area, you can find a competent farrier!

If you're in the boonies, it's a helluva lot more difficult, but please feel free to contact me privately and I'll help you find somebody.:)

[decorum]

Plain flat shoes in front only.
Out of work = light work, not no work, and shoes in front keep feet looking better. I like wearing shoes. Please don't anyone make this a thread about shoes (or lack thereof).


I certainly wasn't trying to make it a bad thread. I just got the impression that it was taking very long to shoe the horse all around and that may have been part of the problem. Some horses have a time limit. ;)

Ann Szolas

[BornToRide]

But sometimes, if a horse resorts to kicking, it's because someone/somebodies around him missed his progressively increasing warning signs that something was not right, and failed to prevent/abort the kick. Horse's cannot utter human words, they have horse language, and we humans need to be paying attention to what they are saying :)
..."Very true! I must be too much of a chicken - I take swats with the tail very seriously and tend to back off and adjust/lpwer the leg or give the horse a break, while scratching the butt for a bit or maybe doing a tail pull :winkgrin:

[Private JD]

I certainly wasn't trying to make it a bad thread. I just got the impression that it was taking very long to shoe the horse all around and that may have been part of the problem. Some horses have a time limit. ;)

Ann Szolas

Sorry, that part wasn't really aimed at you...

Tom, thanks, I may take you up on that, I am not in horse central (only a couple AFA members around), but seem to be just outside horse central (so, people have different reasons for coming out here).

I think the CEO may go back to the old farrier (if he'll come, I think it was an OK parting), but I'll also try getting my feet handled more this month and figuring out exactly what it is I don't like. I'd hate to switch and find out it really is all me and I'm just a rotten piece of cheese...

[JHUshoer20]

[edit]


My horse never kicked, but he was extremely fidgety when he got his hinds done by his former farrier. The problem completely resolved when his diet was changed.Who woulda thunk it?:eek::eek::eek:
George

[JB]

Who woulda thunk it?:eek::eek::eek:
George
Guess what George - if I don't add selenium to my WB's diet, he gets shaky and a little uncomfortable if I hold a hind leg up too high, or hold it up for too long.

BTR may go off the deep end a little ;) when it comes to tossing around diet issues willy nilly, but there IS a valid point behind all of that.

Diet issues DO exist when it comes to "behavior" problems.

[chism]

Sometimes it really is that they don't like the farrier or his methods. I have a 6 year old TB with a stifle injury. He behaves like a perfect gentleman for my farrier, but terribly for the apprentice. The difference is in the way they hold him. The farrier holds his leg low and works quickly. The apprentice wants to crank his leg up & out, takes longer and the horse just can't stand for it. He leans, hops and then jerks his hoof away. FWIW..the same thing happens with my 19 year old pony, and it never happened before the apprentice started working on him.

[Auventera Two]

There are only 4 reasons why a farrier/trimmer can't get under a horse:

1. Fear
2. Pain
3. Misunderstanding
4. Disrespect

Figure out which it is and fix it. It's really not difficult to do at all. :) I trim some that were farrier killers. There are 3 geldings and 1 mare that were all handled with lip chains and twitches, and still managed to kick the farrier, rear and flip, and otherwise wig out totally to the point of needing sedation and eventually being dumped by the farrier. All of them stand with the rope hanging slack for me. :confused: In each case I figured out WHY I couldn't under the horse and then worked with the owner to fix it. 2 were fear (had many bad experiences with farriers) 2 were pain (arthritic old coots)

For the 2 with fear, I spent the first couple trims working quietly with them building the trust between just me and the horse. No handler, no chains or twitches, just leave me be to develop a leader/follower relationship with the animal. The 2 pain horses are now given bute the night before and the morning of trimming, and I keep their feet down very close to the ground. No clue why the other guy didn't figure that out.

In one case, doing something so simple as starting with the right hind foot instead of the left front foot "reset" the horse's brain. He'd had a lot of bad experiences starting when he was a baby. The same farrier did him for years and always started with the left front. I also start with the left front. When you're approaching the horse's left shoulder and he's already wild eyed and setting back on the rope, you know things ain't gonna go well ;) So I just backed off, went around the front of the horse, went to the opposing hind, picked it up and trimmed it and the rest of the horse was a non-issue. The horse's brain had been programmed for so many years that when the stranger with the chaps on takes that left front, the war is on.

Most animals are both complex and very simple all at the same time. You have to think outside the box. I might be a newbie to this profession (only a part timer) but it took me all of about 3 days to figure out that getting under horses is all about horsemanship and nothing about brute force or one-upping the animal.

I get the feeling that some people (farriers and trimmers) want to get in, get out, collect their dough and get on to the next stop as quickly as possible. I too would love to get in, get out, collect my dough and get to the next stop but ocassionally its not possible, and that's just one aspect of this business. Sometimes the horses are so great you feel guilty taking the owner's money, and other times you feel like they should pay you 5x the fee for all the trouble you had to tolerate.

I have a real problem with people declaring horses "ill mannered pukes." If you can't get under a horse, then figure out why and fix it. Dropping the blame at the doorstep of the horse is pretty pathetic.

[luvmywalkers]

There are only 4 reasons why a farrier/trimmer can't get under a horse:

1. Fear
2. Pain
3. Misunderstanding
4. Disrespect

Figure out which it is and fix it. It's really not difficult to do at all. :) ...

I have a real problem with people declaring horses "ill mannered pukes." If you can't get under a horse, then figure out why and fix it. Dropping the blame at the doorstep of the horse is pretty pathetic.

:yes:

The first farrier I used I literally had to beg to come out. Reason being that one of my horses was a mare and he "didn't like to do mares cause they're so moody". He trimmed her for 4 years - up to his retirement.

My neighbor used a different farrier, several horses one of which was a stud. Now, this stud is one of the most laid-back horses ever. When it came to shoeing this stud, the farrier had someone else stand by the horse and get a strong hold of the tongue...this stud is being trimmed and shod without even as much as a leadrope.

My substitute vet comes out for vaccinations and the first thing he does is twisting one ear. Having a few former rescues with whom it took quite a while to get used to getting their ears handled without freaking out, I was not pleased. Needless to say, this substitute is not welcome anymore.

[kdow]

My neighbor used a different farrier, several horses one of which was a stud. Now, this stud is one of the most laid-back horses ever. When it came to shoeing this stud, the farrier had someone else stand by the horse and get a strong hold of the tongue...this stud is being trimmed and shod without even as much as a leadrope.

My substitute vet comes out for vaccinations and the first thing he does is twisting one ear. Having a few former rescues with whom it took quite a while to get used to getting their ears handled without freaking out, I was not pleased. Needless to say, this substitute is not welcome anymore.

I had just this type of problem looking for a vet to do dental work on my dog. He's a rescue, and when I got him he was very quick to get nervous and intimidated and stressed out, but also had some major dental issues that needed to be fixed. He's a bigger dog, though, and so two of the vets I took him to for a quote immediately came in with a couple of vet techs to hold him down for the exam - which completely freaked him out. (He didn't try to bite or anything, but it was pretty clear he was VERY stressed and confused about what was going on.)

Ended up going with the vet who DIDN'T immediately try to pin him down - didn't put himself in harm's way, either, just took things a little more slowly, and paid attention to the cues from the dog - if he started to behave like he was getting too wound up, the vet had no problem backing off for a couple of moments and dealing with some other aspect that didn't require being hands-on while he settled down gain. (And it was literally moments. Less than a minute, because the vet was paying attention and backed off well before the dog got properly worked up. Weirdly, it only took that once for the dog to be MUCH calmer about being examined by that particular vet.)

I respect that being a farrier or a vet is a dangerous profession and you're at risk of being injured by poorly behaved animals on a regular basis. I have no problem with farriers and vets being cautious and aware of the risks, and taking steps to minimize them. But there seems to be a certain type of kind of aggressive-cautiousness that often seems to cause problems, at least in animals with fear or anxiety issues.

[grayarabpony]

I respect that being a farrier or a vet is a dangerous profession and you're at risk of being injured by poorly behaved animals on a regular basis. I have no problem with farriers and vets being cautious and aware of the risks, and taking steps to minimize them. But there seems to be a certain type of kind of aggressive-cautiousness that often seems to cause problems, at least in animals with fear or anxiety issues.

Very true. I've experienced this with one of my horses (an orphan), and how such people don't end up getting killed is beyond me. They're just making their job a lot more difficult.

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray, stuff deleted

There are only 4 reasons why a farrier/trimmer can't get under a horse:

1. Fear
2. Pain
3. Misunderstanding
4. Disrespect

LMAO! Aside from a pain response, which any competent professional should instantly recognize, there is only ONE reason a farrier/trimmer can't get under a horse: LACK OF TRAINING!!!!

[Deleted: The usual litany of self-aggrandizing, possibly apocryphal, feats of derring-do in which our heroine somehow magically transforms ill-broke pukes into docile beasts by means of superior skill, ability, strict adherence to her mail order PhD's training, and regular bathing.]

I have a real problem with people declaring horses "ill mannered pukes."

On the off chance you ever quit your cushy day job, cease being a dilettante wannabe, and are forced to depend on whatever skills you've acquired at the feet of your correspondence course PhD to put food on your table, your understanding of a professional's use of such terms as, "ill broke, "ill mannered," "ill" this or "ill" that, with or without "puke," will become greatly enhanced.

If you can't get under a horse, then figure out why and fix it.

If a horse is not hurting, if I - or any other competent hoof care professional - can't get under that horse, the reason is ALWAYS lack of training.

Dropping the blame at the doorstep of the horse is pretty pathetic.

No ma'am, the term "pathetic" is more properly addressed to anyone who attempts to blame a farrier or trimmer for a horse's lack of training!

[Auventera Two]

They're just making their job a lot more difficult.

Good point. When a professional has no more compassion and sensitivity, they should leave the business. If a person chooses a career with animals, they have to lay aside the ego trip. I had the owner of a little donkey hug me and give me a tip for "not beating her." One of my mentors was my own farrier and though his trim just wasn't working for my horses, I learned a LOT from him. One thing I always noticed about him was that he never lost his temper. Never hit a horse, never yelled, never got excited about anything.

When I started riding with him, I saw him handle everything from foals to breeding stallions to rescues to broodmares to performance horses. It always struck me that no matter WHAT the horse did, he just took a step back, took a breath, and tried again. The most disciplining he ever did was to back the horse up with the leadrope then walk them forward again. It worked darn near every time. The horse learned that the human has the power to move his feet, and this is something that horses instinctively understand. The herd leaders can pin an ear and the subordinates have to move.

He taught me that when you get in a fight with a horse, you hurt your reputation. Nobody wants to see their horse whacked on and yelled at by the farrier. He always just had this "way" about him that horses took to. Even horses that had always been problems for other people, he just knew how to get under them and get the job done without all the drama. Holding the feet lower, using the hoof cradle, scratching their withers, handling the rope himself instead of the owner, and doing various little things that just unlocked their brains and got them on the same page with him. He's the one who taught me when you have a problem horse, start with the opposing hind. For whatever reason, it just resets the horse's brain.

That guy reall speaks horse, and I respect him completely. He's a real master at horse handling and I was very fortunate to have learned from him.

[purplnurpl]

The only farrier that my horse stood perfectly for was a guy who didn't use that little foot prop thingy when he was finishing up. But do to complications I use my vet/podiatrist now instead.

My grey horse hates that prop thing.
I tell the farriers, "he hates that thing" but they use it anyway. One time his front foot was up on it and he stood up on that front foot like an elephant. I laughed and said, told you.
He mostly just won't keep his feet up on it. He never kicks. But sometimes that hind end leg stiffness/jerk is just as bad for the poor farrier's back. : (

The reason I don't get mad at grey horse? Because his feet are sensitive, shitty TB feet and he has thin soles. I think the foot prop thingy bothers him, maybe hurts a little.
Why else would that be the ONLY time he acted out a little?

So instead I give him some 2 in 1 and let him sleep.

[Auventera Two]

The only farrier that my horse stood perfectly for was a guy who didn't use that little foot prop thingy when he was finishing up. But do to complications I use my vet/podiatrist now instead.

My grey horse hates that prop thing.
I tell the farriers, "he hates that thing" but they use it anyway. One time his front foot was up on it and he stood up on that front foot like an elephant. I laughed and said, told you.
He mostly just won't keep his feet up on it. He never kicks. But sometimes that hind end leg stiffness/jerk is just as bad for the poor farrier's back. : (

The reason I don't get mad at grey horse? Because his feet are sensitive, shitty TB feet and he has thin soles. I think the foot prop thingy bothers him, maybe hurts a little.
Why else would that be the ONLY time he acted out a little?

So instead I give him some 2 in 1 and let him sleep.

For horses with thin/painful soles, I have an extra post for my hoof stand that has a big wad of cotton batting/duct tape/vet wrap covering the end. The end result is a big baseball sized soft wad that the hoof can rest on. Horses like it MUCH better. If they have a good, strong frog, you can usually put the frog on the top of the post so the post isn't contacting the sole. But if they have a weak/poor frog, the alternative post works great.

But, I tend to think that a little more training would be in order for your horse. If he's so thin soled that the post hurts his sole, he sure isn't going to rear up on it and put all his weight on it. That sounds like disrespect to me. I've had them refuse to put any weight on the post, and they'll sit back on their hindquarters and try to drag the foot off the post when the soles are thin/painful. In that case, I just use the other one with the padding on it and it fixes the problem.

[luvmywalkers]

Auventera Two in gray, stuff deleted

There are only 4 reasons why a farrier/trimmer can't get under a horse:

1. Fear
2. Pain
3. Misunderstanding
4. Disrespect

LMAO! Aside from a pain response, which any competent professional should instantly recognize, there is only ONE reason a farrier/trimmer can't get under a horse: LACK OF TRAINING!!!!

[Deleted: The usual litany of self-aggrandizing, possibly apocryphal, feats of derring-do in which our heroine somehow magically transforms ill-broke pukes into docile beasts by means of superior skill, ability, strict adherence to her mail order PhD's training, and regular bathing.]

I have a real problem with people declaring horses "ill mannered pukes."

On the off chance you ever quit your cushy day job, cease being a dilettante wannabe, and are forced to depend on whatever skills you've acquired at the feet of your correspondence course PhD to put food on your table, your understanding of a professional's use of such terms as, "ill broke, "ill mannered," "ill" this or "ill" that, with or without "puke," will become greatly enhanced.

If you can't get under a horse, then figure out why and fix it.

If a horse is not hurting, if I - or any other competent hoof care professional - can't get under that horse, the reason is ALWAYS lack of training.

Dropping the blame at the doorstep of the horse is pretty pathetic.

No ma'am, the term "pathetic" is more properly addressed to anyone who attempts to blame a farrier or trimmer for a horse's lack of training!

Tom, from reading a lot of your posts here as well as on the HS forum, I reached the conclusion over time that you are a competent hoofcare professional who can be - when needed - compassionate. However, on topics such as this one, you do have a tendency to blame every problem on lack of training, and thereby assuming that every hoofcare professional is competent. And as we all know, not all are. Same with vets, trainers, pilots...every profession has its own 'mishaps'. And yes, that includes horse owners as well.

Some of us only find a competent professional through 'trial and error'; sometimes with serious consequences.

[BornToRide]

Originally Posted by kdow
[I]I respect that being a farrier or a vet is a dangerous profession and you're at risk of being injured by poorly behaved animals on a regular basis. I have no problem with farriers and vets being cautious and aware of the risks, and taking steps to minimize them. But there seems to be a certain type of kind of aggressive-cautiousness that often seems to cause problems, at least in animals with fear or anxiety issues.
Could not agree more - that's when unwise man-handling starts! The pinning against a wall in a stall, torquing a horse's hind legs, laying them down on the ground and using a lip chain on a mini that even drew blood. Oh and the farrier who twitched a horse and tied the twitch to the bumper of his truck. Yet when I worked with those horses they behaved just fine for me without the need for any extra restraint.

[luvmywalkers]

Seems there are three main things that can be wrong with a farrier 1) bad business - unreliable, or chronically late etc. 2) bad mojo - no horse sense even if feet look OK. and 3) bad feet - this of course is the one that can be a disaster. Would you risk 3 to replace 2? Would you take 1 over 2?

Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like?

1) While chronically late can make my life more difficult, as CEO of my horses I decided what matters the most is the quality of hoofcare this professional gives.

2) As CEO of my horses, I am fully aware of any little 'quirks' they may have and inform farrier of such. He/she can either take or leave the deal. If he/she cannot trim a horse UNLESS it is in the crossties while fine with a rope over her back...he/she is out. If he/she has a need to hit my mare because she grabs her leg back so she can rebalance (arthritic), he/she is out.

3) I found, through many trials and errors, that competent hoofcare providers have quite a bit of horse sense. I've come to believe that you cannot be one without the other. And that should answer your last question. However, to be absolutely sure, find out if there's nothing going on inside your horse's feet that could be aggregated by nailing on the shoe, for instance.

[nlk]

Private~ I think your CEO needs to find a new farrier altogether.

I don't know why most (read most not all) farriers (and "Hoof care providers" alike) are unpunctual to say the least. Having an unreliable GREAT farrier is just as bad as having an OK reliable farrier.

I am not a farrier but rather a trainer/farm manager. I have handled everything from babies to studs for the farrier ( and everything in between) along with rescue and abused cases.

In a farm of 50-60 horses not ONE horse would stand great for a certain farrier. Wasn't necessarily abusive but rather abrasive. I had a former OTTB and "A" circuit jumper who had shoes on ALL the time due to minor Navicular. This horse got progressively worse for this farrier and ended by rearing and smacking his head on a HIGH beam and getting stitches in his poll.

When we switched farriers (due to unreliability) all of the horses on the farm stood like angels for the new guy, no re-training necessary. I had one mare who FREAKED at any hissing sounds (hose, fly spray) unless you took your time, the old farriers forge unglued her and she would get "disciplined" and it would unglue her more. New guy took the time and talked to her and WORKED with her and she ended up being great for him.

Long story but I think some Farriers just don't have good "vibes" with the horses.

Aside from that you do need to look at pain and training as well. however given the circumstance I doubt pain is an issue unless the NEW farrier is causing it.

I think a lot of people look at training as a horse standing like a statue, usually not going to happen, they have a brain and react heavily to their enviornment. YES you can train them to respond to your ques to an extent but sometimes they just get overwhelmed (think of the people who have the big cats living in their houses, it's only a matter of time before instinct takes over)

I think behavior in a large part is the responsibility of the owners, HOWEVER, farriers need to make sure they are doing things right and are giving "calming" vibes not frustration at their long day at work and other horses. Our horses feel those vibes.

So to all the farriers~ if you wanted a horse to stand perfect every time regardless of circumstance....buy a statue and work on that

[asanders]

Some of us only find a competent professional through 'trial and error'; sometimes with serious consequences.

Too true. You do what you can through networking or referrals, but you never really know what your getting until you get it.

I think I've posted my big three I-hate-to-find-a-new-one service providers: Dentist, Hair stylist, and Farrier.
State licensing of Dentists hopefully limits potential damage to mostly personal issues (usually related to minimizing pain). Bad hair might be embarrassing, but not really damaging. But, a bad farrier can set you back months if not permanently.

Tom, do you know what pecentage of those who make their living shoing/trimming horses are members or trained to the specifications of AFA? Tell me why this should be a requirement in a search for a farrier.

[grayarabpony]

pecentage of those who make their living shoing/trimming horses are members or trained to the specifications of AFA? Tell me why this should be a requirement in a search for a farrier.

The fact that a farrier is a member of the AFA and has letters behind the name may mean jack squat, unfortunately.

[JenJ]

I used the same farrier for my mare for about 10 years - he is amazing, friendly, reliable, did a great job working together with my vet to resolve some soundness issues. I bred this mare and the foal was not easy for the (another) farrier but we got her done - there was never any threat to kick, her panic reaction was flight.
I later moved back to a barn where my long term farrier did the horses and much to my surprise, my (then) yearling and this farrier could not have gotten along worse. There was rearing, striking out, kicking - it was awful and dangerous for all involved and a completely atypical reaction. Rather than tranq'g her for each trim, I found a young farrier who was willing to work with us and over the course of about a year, we got to the stage where she stood quietly in the aisle with one cross tie attached, and me with a lead rope acting as the other cross tie. This farrier was travelling quite a distance to get to us and I knew one day she would not want to continue.

Luckily another farrier was in the barn one day and the then 3 year old reached out of her stall to shove her nose into him - she does not do this, she is afraid of people she doesnt know but for some reason took to this big burly guy. He became my next farrier and my nervous little filly just loves him and stands quietly for him. There is just some connection there. This week she had her first set of shoes put on ... while the rest of the barn was being fed!!!, and she stood quietly the entire time, never pulling away or reacting to the shoeing at all.

I continue to use my long term farrier for my older mare, but the youngster just needed someone that sends out different vibes. I dont have a clue what she sensed in one person as opposed to another, but it was so instantaneous and absolute, it was as if she was saying "I want this man as my farrier".

[Tom Stovall]

luvmywalkers in gray

Tom, from reading a lot of your posts here as well as on the HS forum, I reached the conclusion over time that you are a competent hoofcare professional who can be - when needed - compassionate. However, on topics such as this one, you do have a tendency to blame every problem on lack of training, and thereby assuming that every hoofcare professional is competent.

Drat! I thought I'd been fairly careful to include "competent" as a preface when stating what's expected and normal for hoofcare pros. Mea culpa. For the record, let my re-state my case: Any competent hoof care pro will immediately recognize a pain response when getting under a horse and make the horse, not himself, as comfortable as possible; therefore, any problems that arise during the course of his duties are TRAINING problems, not farrier problems.

And as we all know, not all are. Same with vets, trainers, pilots...every profession has its own 'mishaps'. And yes, that includes horse owners as well.

Mr. Geist can make a case for licensing farriers, but I think the Law of Unintended Consequences will bite the industry in the arse if it ever happens. Right now, other than in some parimutuel jurisdictions, neither farriers or trainers have any form of competency testing - and, while owners have the ultimate responsibility for a horse's husbandry and training, all that's required to own a horse is the purchase price.

Some of us only find a competent professional through 'trial and error'; sometimes with serious consequences.

I know a little about those serious consequences. In my misspent youth, I learned that no matter how badly one wants to get to the next rodeo, one should never, ever, get into a small plane with a hungover cowboy-pilot. :)

[luvmywalkers]

I know a little about those serious consequences. In my misspent youth, I learned that no matter how badly one wants to get to the next rodeo, one should never, ever, get into a small plane with a hungover cowboy-pilot. :)

What???:eek: You weren't always perfect???

[Tom Stovall]

luvmywalkers in gray

What???:eek: You weren't always perfect???

I thought I was mistaken once - but I was mistaken. :)

[foursocks]

To the OP: if the farrier doesn't do a great job, find another one. If your horse is being a snot and it doesn't seem to be related to whatever the farrier is doing, try to think of other solutions in the short term while you deal with his bad manners. My horse went through a ridiculously traumatic incident with a very heavy gate- he won, the gate didn't- but it made him weird and paranoid and shaky- and prone to kicking out straight out behind him for a while. :o

My farrier, who is amazing and wonderful with horses and their feet, already throws a grazing muzzle on my horse, who can't resist nipping a bum waggling right in his face. My farrier was understandably unthrilled by the prospect of my horse getting quick with his feet while being shod so he asked if he could drug him for the next cycle. No problem, said I, and voila- four new shoes, no trauma to anyone, and hopefully now that the paranoia seems to be dissipated there wont be any more need for drugs to shoe him safely.

But if there is a need I'm fine with it- my horse absolutely needs to behave for the farrier and other professionals, and he usually does beautifully. But he was so traumatized by the post-gate fight that he was peeing himself when something touched his butt and then WHAM- straight out behind with the foot. Taking the path of least resistance made everyone much more comfortable and got the job done while I worked with his hind end fear. Stupid horse- but hopefully now back to normal.

[twofatponies]

[edit]

But back to the kicking the farrier subject, I have one horse that always stood like a champ, but I think it's a little uncomfortable for her now, as she has some arthritis. She's been tending to pull her hind legs away lately. I hadn't thought about giving bute before her trims, but that's a good idea. The trimmer's been very patient and holds her feet very low, but I realize now that's probably a lot less comfortable for *him*, though he's never complained. I'll try it next time.

[Moderator 1]

We removed a number of OT and/or inappropriate posts. Please stay focused on the original topic vs. each other or posting habits here or in other forums.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[cloudyandcallie]

I've had great farriers all my life, but due to some issues with Cloudy and Callie, I found that giving a bute about an hour before the farrier is to arrive really helps and xyzalzine is better than having a bad experience. My WB tends to lean on the farrier. I make sure he is fed and flysprayed and happy as a spoiled wb can be, and then if he acts up, he gets drugged. (He's not known as a bad horse, those that kick and bite and try to hurt farriers, but he does has problem hooves and sometimes requires pour in pads and always has 4 shoes.

I recommend bute and xyzaline, and then gradually reducing them. Also, make sure you have the farrier reset at 5 or 6 weeks, and don't let the hooves go. Too many owners go weeks beyond the optimum time for resetting and trimming, and cause more problems.
This is assuming your farrier isn't trimming too much of the hoof and hurting the horse.

[kookicat]

[edit]

But back to the kicking the farrier subject, I have one horse that always stood like a champ, but I think it's a little uncomfortable for her now, as she has some arthritis. She's been tending to pull her hind legs away lately. I hadn't thought about giving bute before her trims, but that's a good idea. The trimmer's been very patient and holds her feet very low, but I realize now that's probably a lot less comfortable for *him*, though he's never complained. I'll try it next time.

Maybe you should give them both a dose of bute. :winkgrin:

[cloudyandcallie]

Maybe you should give them both a dose of bute. :winkgrin:

Good idea!:lol:

[BornToRide]

In his DVDs, Tools of the Trade, Pete Ramey talks about using a mini Hoofjack, even for drafts (he thinks they are sturdy enough to hold up) because it puts the legs in a more comfortable position....makes sense to me :)

[Tom Bloomer]

The mini hoof jack is awesome for geriatrics and . . . MINIS! ;)

It will prop up an ol' stiff legged draft horse just fine. The cradle and post interchange with the regular hoof jack. Often I use the mini cradle on the regular hoof jack and the regular hoof jack post on the mini stand.

[Daydream Believer]

I had a funny encounter today out trimming. It was a horse I've trimmed before..a regular customer...and older mare but pretty sound and hale. Last time I did her 6 weeks earlier she was terrible. Had a tantrum and would not stand well at all snatching her feet away with attitude and violence. The owner disciplined her and we managed to get her done but it took much longer than normal. I suggested she explore a physical cause for her problems as this was not normal for this mare. The owner was very apologetic and promised to do so.

Today, I was presented with her again and the owner had written instructions from the horse's body worker that I was to "sweet talk and fuss over" the mare before starting! Laughing, I did so...(I usually do greet my clients' horses with a pat anyway) but I made a big deal of her and told her how lovely she was, etc... The horse was almost perfectly behaved! So different from the time before! The owner had diligently had her checked over by the vet, the body worker, and practiced with her feet and then brought me a much improved horse. I suspect that had a lot more to do with her improvement than the sweet talk did but there was no harm in it...so I did it and the owner and I both had a good laugh that it seemed to help.

I do think sometimes the demeanor of the farrier/trimmer can make a huge difference and being willing to take a bit more time if needed. I do understand that is hard also as we all have schedules to keep and when a horse is being rude and slinging you around, it's hard to be patient. Anyway...to the OP...ask the farrier to do some sweet talk first and see if that helps!

[Rick Burten]

I recommend bute and xyzaline, and then gradually reducing them.
Xyzlazine (aka: rompum) will get a farrier killed. I absolutely refuse to work on any horse that has been administered this drug. Far better to administer Dormosedan or Dormosedan and Torbegesic when chemical restraint is required. I also make it a practice to not work on horses that have been administered Ace.

[BornToRide]

I had a funny encounter today out trimming. It was a horse I've trimmed before..a regular customer...and older mare but pretty sound and hale. Last time I did her 6 weeks earlier she was terrible. Had a tantrum and would not stand well at all snatching her feet away with attitude and violence. The owner disciplined her and we managed to get her done but it took much longer than normal. I suggested she explore a physical cause for her problems as this was not normal for this mare. The owner was very apologetic and promised to do so.

Today, I was presented with her again and the owner had written instructions from the horse's body worker that I was to "sweet talk and fuss over" the mare before starting! Laughing, I did so...(I usually do greet my clients' horses with a pat anyway) but I made a big deal of her and told her how lovely she was, etc... The horse was almost perfectly behaved! So different from the time before! The owner had diligently had her checked over by the vet, the body worker, and practiced with her feet and then brought me a much improved horse. I suspect that had a lot more to do with her improvement than the sweet talk did but there was no harm in it...so I did it and the owner and I both had a good laugh that it seemed to help.

I do think sometimes the demeanor of the farrier/trimmer can make a huge difference and being willing to take a bit more time if needed. I do understand that is hard also as we all have schedules to keep and when a horse is being rude and slinging you around, it's hard to be patient. Anyway...to the OP...ask the farrier to do some sweet talk first and see if that helps!LOL and I have found that a stare in the eye until they look away, if the sweet talk does not help much, can also work wonders ;)

Perhaps the mare just also had a bad heat cycle last time??

[Tom Bloomer]

Perhaps the mare just also had a bad heat cycle last time??I trimmed two mares yesterday that had raging "spring hormones" and were winking at the two geldings in the barn with them. After trimming the fronts on one of the mares, the owner said she would take the geldings out of the barn before I did the mare's hinds because she didn't want me working in the rain. :lol::lol:

[cloudyandcallie]

Xyzlazine (aka: rompum) will get a farrier killed. I absolutely refuse to work on any horse that has been administered this drug. Far better to administer Dormosedan or Dormosedan and Torbegesic when chemical restraint is required. I also make it a practice to not work on horses that have been administered Ace.

Hey it's my farrier who has it (and now has me buying it)! Makes Cloudy dopey standing up. No pulling, leaning, etc. I should have posted that my farrier is the one who brought the drug, administered it, and has been using it due to Cloudy having some hoof problems that require a lot of work on his hooves. Now the farrier has me getting the drug from my vet, and my vet has no problem with it. If the vet had said no, I would have asked the vet to recommend something else. But I will ask my farrier if he thinks the drugs you recommended would suffice. My horse is easily drugged and very calm when drugged.

My old skinny farrier shod this same horse without drugs for years, but Cloudy tends to lean on farriers. When I moved to a barn where the old farrier doesn't work anymore, I went back to the farrier who did our hooves years ago.

[Auventera Two]

Xyzlazine (aka: rompum) will get a farrier killed. I absolutely refuse to work on any horse that has been administered this drug. Far better to administer Dormosedan or Dormosedan and Torbegesic when chemical restraint is required. I also make it a practice to not work on horses that have been administered Ace.

:confused: I've heard this about Ace but not Rompum. I trim horses for a Vet and he sedates their donkey with Rompum, always did for the farrier too. I always thought Dormosedan was the safest, but that Rompum was the next best. But thanks for the info, I'll keep it in mind!

[JHUshoer20]

Hey it's my farrier who has it (and now has me buying it)! Makes Cloudy dopey standing up. No pulling, leaning, etc. I should have posted that my farrier is the one who brought the drug, administered it, and has been using it due to Cloudy having some hoof problems that require a lot of work on his hooves. Now the farrier has me getting the drug from my vet, and my vet has no problem with it. If the vet had said no, I would have asked the vet to recommend something else. But I will ask my farrier if he thinks the drugs you recommended would suffice. My horse is easily drugged and very calm when drugged.

My old skinny farrier shod this same horse without drugs for years, but Cloudy tends to lean on farriers. When I moved to a barn where the old farrier doesn't work anymore, I went back to the farrier who did our hooves years ago.No horseshoer ought to be administering drugs to any horse anywhere at any time for any reason ever!!!!

I hope this individual gets himself sued:mad:
George

[Harryson]

I agree with JHUshoer20, no farrier should be giving any drug, if you get drugs from your vet and YOU give it great, otherwise not a chance!

I've found Rompum to make my horse really light behind. His startle response much, much higher. I know vets and owners that love it. But I'd rather not, esp. if someone is working on him.

[Private JD]

So, guess what,

A new farrier came yesterday and I got a gold star!

I was doing great, and then someone tried to set the barn on fire starting with my foot (I've never been hot shod before) and I was even OK with that. The second time they tried it, I did try to back out, because I thought we had this deal about rewarding good behavior, and I was being good for a long time by then, and yet someone still tried to torch me. Everyone seemed to think I should be happy about it though, so I sucked it up and stood. No trouble at all nailing up (which had been an issue the last few times). I was so happy with the way they did my back feet (holding them much more comfortably) that I almost fell asleep. I was kind of worried about this because I (stupidly, according to someone) fell down and got stuck half under the fence 2 days before and I was kind of sore.

Anyway, I'm really glad I made a change. :):)

It DOES make a huge difference when the farrier and the horse are on the same page...

[Ambrey]

Private JD, I'm glad your owner decided to trust what you were telling her and try something different, and I'm glad the new farrier was more acceptable to you :)

[Androcles]

Dang, that hors spelz betr then a lot of peepl doo.

[JB]

Dang, that hors spelz betr then a lot of peepl doo.
:lol:

[luvmywalkers]

Dang, that hors spelz betr then a lot of peepl doo.

Must have a huge keyboard :lol:

[luvmywalkers]

It DOES make a huge difference when the farrier and the horse are on the same page...

It sure does! I'm happy for you and your owner ;)