Do they ever stay sound????? UPDATE, MRI results are in. Post #29

[Petalstorm]

I am having a sad, bad day and need to vent and need input...

Yesterday I took my wonderful 6 year old WB/cross mare to the Vet. This is a mare that I have had since she was a two year old. She just finished winning her first two horse trials and has been coming together beautifully. My trainer had noticed that my mare had begun grinding her teeth and also noticed that she was jumping off to the right so we knew that this was something different for her and that there was something going on. Over the weekend she had been in an eventing clinic and had worked really hard so we knew that whatever was going on would really show up on the following Monday.

After a full lameness exam including flexions and a nerve block we found that she is sore all over the place; front feet, right stifle. Her radiographs show some changes and the start of ring bone. She has flattening on her stifle. She was sore on her lumbar area. The list seemed endless. My Vet suggested an MRI...and four months rest.

Obviously our season is over and I strongly suspect that this is the end of her barely begun career. If this is how she holds up to three months of work preparing for the season then what does the future hold? There are maintanance options, I know. But how much maintinance should a 6 year old take? Maybe we need to manage her very differently. We have been so carefull with her...

Any words of wisdon out there?

[RAyers]

I believe John Blutarsky said it best in Animal House, "Start drinking heavily."

I honestly honestly have no super incantation that explains it all away other than it is the nature of the game with horses. (damn it all)

I have been with Shiver for 10 years now and have only competed him 7. We had 3 separate seasons of injury/rehab. Because I took it slow and did what the vets told me to do Shiver came back better than when he stopped and we progressed farther than I ever imagined.

Reed

[00Jumper]

A vet I knew said there were two types of horses in the world: lame horses and horses that will be lame. Every horse owner goes through it, and it always sucks, but you have to go through the treatment options you can do for your horse's sake, and your own. Just stock up on treats, buy comfortable shoes for handwalking and grazing, and maybe some drinks for yourself. ;)

I hope your horse's problems are manageable and remember that not every problem is a career-ending injury. Horses all over the world have "jewelry" and sore days and we deal with them as best we can, because they're our partners and we love them, God alone knows why. ;)

[JER]

IME, many horses go through a phase of ouchiness -- even clinical ouchiness -- at about this point in their life and training.

6 is young and the horse is still changing, growing, adjusting. I could tell you numerous stories of horses that came back from early navicular/ringbone/sidebone/back issues to have very long, very successful careers.

I like to have a chiro/acupuncture vet work on my horses regularly as I find it helps with their overall comfort as well as provide a good index of where they tend to get sore.

And rest can do wonders for a horse. She won't forget all the good schooling she's had, and you'll be able to work back to where you were quite easily.

[Peggy]

Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. Complete with flattening of one of the surfaces of the stifle and the MRI. Minus the ringbone but with bonus collateral ligament damage. With my wonderful good-minded horse.

Like many other things with horses, you carry on and keep trying until it works or you reach some sort of a point or line in the sand. Yes, it definitely sucks. Reed's advice is excellent, but probably not a good idea to combine hand-walking and drinking.

Mine is back to work and started jumping, albeit with heavy paranoia on my part. He feels better and straighter and more even taking off for jumps than before. I keep hoping.

[HollysHobbies]

My instructor always says if the current situation isn't working for the horse, change it. By that, she means (and I agree),

If your horse is in, turn her out or move her somewhere that you can.
If she's out, put her in 1/2 day or change her pasturemates.
If she has shoes, take them off.
Simplify her diet to pasture, supplement with hay as necessary.
Give her 3 months in the pasture "off" work.

That's what I'd do (and have done)--these aren't always easy to do, but when you're at the end of your rope, I think you need to drastically (though not dangerously) change.

I wish you the best of luck...you must be so frustrated!

[yellowbritches]

Soundness is my biggest heart breaker. I've watched horses I've adored either have to move on to different careers because eventing was too hard on their bodies (why I avoid BIG horses), or retire way too young, or have to be put down. It is hard. But it is also why I do not mess around when it comes to their soundness. They all go the very best vets, get the feet dealt with by a great farrier, and we avoid bad footing like the plague. Still, that all only goes so far.

I wouldn't recommend giving up hope just yet, though. Sore all over is very, very typical of young horses in hard work (speaking from experience. My horse is 5). Sore in the lumbar is a very common issue on young horses and can often be helped tremedously by an SI injection or mezzotherapy. Ringbone can be dealt with. Not sure about the stifle issue (I don't quite get what is meant by "flattening of the stifle." Is it just under developed?). Don't give up hope until the MRI is done. Is your vet a lameness specialist?

[Hony]

I've had mine since she was a baby and here's what I've gotten to deal with. At 4 came up sore all over after an XC school, 2 months rest, good as new.
At 5 we munched a warm up fence, the rail got caught between her legs and caused her to go down. This was an SJ fence. NQR, 2 months rest.
At 6 strangles went through the barn I was at so we were sidelined with quaranteen even though my horse didn't get sick.
At 8 sore through the bum occasionally. We thought it was a selenium deficiency so we started supplementing selenium. Lots of chiro, accupunture, massage, heating pad etc.
Found out the original issue wasn't a selenium deficiency. Xrayed both hind feet and found out that she has low coffins. Used wedge pads to improve the angle. Sound within a few days.
At 9 more hind end issues including bone spavin. I had her lower hocks injected and she has been great.
At 10 I think I may finally have her figured out because she's been feeling great this year!

The point is a lot can happen in an event horse's life. It's all about figuring out your management program. What does your horse need to be able to do the job. Maybe they can only compete once a month or once every two months. Maybe they can't handle as many gallops and need to get most of their fitness through walks on hill.
Often front foot soreness comes from compensating for issues in the hind end. That being said, 90% of lameness comes from the foot so I would go from there and work your way up. Make sure you have a good farrier. They can make or break you horse.

[horselesswonder]

A vet I knew said there were two types of horses in the world: lame horses and horses that will be lame.

My poor non-horsey husband says the same thing. :yes: Petalstorm, I feel for you. It is so frustrating. I have four horses and I would not call any of them sound (though my gelding who is pushing 20 and has been showing most of his life is the best of the bunch). In the past few years I have had two with soft tissue injuries (one of which relapsed) and purchased a new young one that has not been sound since the day I bought him. In fact, his issues sound similar to your horse's. Just plain lame with hard work. I have begun to embrace the idea of "servicably sound," though it is easier for me as I am a hunter/jumper rider and my horses (the hunters at least) have an easier job description than yours. I just thought you'd like to know that you are not alone. As another poster said, it seems to be the nature of the beast. Best of luck to you.

[purplnurpl]

I believe John Blutarsky said it best in Animal House, "Start drinking heavily."

I honestly honestly have no super incantation that explains it all away other than it is the nature of the game with horses. (damn it all)

I have been with Shiver for 10 years now and have only competed him 7. We had 3 separate seasons of injury/rehab. Because I took it slow and did what the vets told me to do Shiver came back better than when he stopped and we progressed farther than I ever imagined.

Reed


My horse is now 8. I started competing him at age 4 (fall). Of the 4 years I have had only THREE full seasons of competition.

He had to take most of his 5 year old year off due to tooth issues and growing pains.
His 6 year old year was great.
And now he's broken again. We are finding the tricks of his trade to keep him sound. If he comes back from his STI--then we can put the tricks to use. ; )
All I can do is all I can do. And the rest is up to him.

[IrishWillow]

Hi,
I have 5 and 6 yr olds that require some minimal maintenance.. not to "stay sound" but to keep them from being sore. I think, honestly, it comes with the territory. If maintenance is something you are willing to work with, then I would find a maintenance program for her and just keep moving.

K

[riderboy]

Yes, definitely a hearbreak sport. I've had 2 complete seasons off out of 5 available for lameness issues including last summer. So I bought ANOTHER horse last fall and things seem to be going OK. He jumped out of his paddock last night ,looks OK, but damn, sometimes it's a bit too much. I'll check him tonight. I just take what I can get. Good luck.

[mybelle]

I think the only horses that stay sound are the ones you do not own. I will not even discuss my bad luck this year. I just keep hoping it will turn. Good luck to you -hooves and fingers crossed.

[JER]

He had to take most of his 5 year old year off due to tooth issues and growing pains.


Hey! That was my horse! The specialist dentist was our best friend.

In Year 5, our plans changed from starting her eventing career to walking around the neighborhood bareback in a halter.

But it was time well spent, in retrospect, as she's doing so well now at 7.

[Thames Pirate]

Pfft--No!! They don't stay sound unless it's the psychotic horse who will never truly be ridable or the poorly conformed train wreck who will never be capable of jumping two feet.

I'm sorry you're having a rough time. Know that you are not alone--we've all had our fair share (anyone else have a horse go head-to-head with a tornado?), and some of us have had more than that (my sister lost her first horse at age 12 and her second, which she had trained mostly herself, at age 17). I've had a horse go lame before his career had begun--just a few days after jumping his first fence in an open field. It's as discouraging as anything out there. I sympathize. Jingles for the horse and hugs for you!

[EqTrainer]

Hang in there and plan to slow down. Six is young for a late maturing breed. I find that the horses I wait on, come along as quickly as the ones I started earlier. So relax :)

And not to be morbid, but... try to see things in perspective. Your horse is alive and you have things you can do to help her.

[mbdobbs]

I think the only horses that stay sound are the ones you do not own.

Hear Hear, that is hilarious and true.

All of the advice here is excellent, and the stories remind us all that we're not alone. I bought my mare at 10 and had a very lucky four years of soundness. My turn was last year -- lesions in a rear tendon, off for the whole season, came back, was discovered to have ulcers everywhere, treated them, she was great, then came up with a some kind of liver disease, which we've never figured out, but she's feeling and doing great. It has been stop and start for over a year, and that's how it goes.

One thing I think is helpful to remember is that "sore all over" is better than "really sore in [put any part of horse here.]" IMO, that just means she's sore from working out. Marathon runners are often sore, for example, after they run 17 miles during training, and although I go to the gym regularly, I, and thousands of others like me, am sore the day after a good workout. Don't give up. Your horse is a gem.

Melisa

[horselesswonder]

They don't stay sound unless it's the psychotic horse who will never truly be ridable or the poorly conformed train wreck who will never be capable of jumping two feet.


Isn't that the truth! :lol:

[Carol Ames]

y instructor always says if the current situation isn't working for the horse, change it. By that, she means (and I agree),

If your horse is in, turn her out or move her somewhere that you can.
If she's out, put her in 1/2 day or change her pasturemates.
If she has shoes, take them off modify your competition/ lesson/ clinic schedule as needed
Simplify her diet to pasture, supplement with hay as necessary.
Give her 3 months in the pasture "off" work.

That's what I'd do (and have done)--these aren't always easy to do, but when you're at the end of your rope, I think you need to drastically (though not dangerously) change.

I wish you the best of luck...you must be so frustrated! http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4090179)

[ss3777]

There was a Graf George article that really spoke to me. From a vet~~~~~~you can not fix them all but you can manage most of them~~~~~

Good luck!!

[TB or not TB?]

Hang in there and plan to slow down. Six is young for a late maturing breed. I find that the horses I wait on, come along as quickly as the ones I started earlier. So relax :)

What type of schedule do you usually follow? (If horses can be pinned down to anything "usual.") I tend to move sloooowly so I always like to hear others' opinions.

[purplnurpl]

There was a Graf George article that really spoke to me. From a vet~~~~~~you can not fix them all but you can manage most of them~~~~~

Good luck!!

with the right amount of money.

I read that article too. Graf George was a train wreck!!
The OCs had a horse that needed constant help as well. Maybe Nache? In their book they say that they had issues keeping him sound until the new vet came on board.

[avezan]

To answer the question in the title. No. They don't ever just stay sound.

Now for some very general advice, not meant to diagnose anything or even for the OP in particular. When dealing with a horse that is NQR, it is very easy to "find" things on a vet exam that are wrong. The harder you look for things, the more things you will find. Whether or not these things are contributing to the NQR is almost impossible to tell. Take, for example, radiographic findings. Unless the finding correlates to a specific lameness the horse is having in that area, I would only consider something on a radiograph a "finding", not a diagnosis. Beware of treating these "findings". You may make things worse. Same thing with an MRI. You may find lots of things wrong, which may or may not be contributing to the horse's issue. A 6 year old warmblood cross is young and possibly still growing. It sounds like 4 months off might just do the trick. Then, as others have suggested, change something up. Change turnout, or shoes, or training schedule, etc. Keep those radiographs as baseline in case a particular lameness comes up again. Horses can and usually do get arthritic changes in their joints as they age. These may or may not ever cause a soundness issue. Seeing the beginnings of ringbone on a radiograph might make me put the horse on a joint supplement, but I would not do anything more invasive to "treat" the ringbone.

Good luck. I hope, after some time off, the horse is as good as new.

[mortebella]

...but I was thinking the other day, competitive horses are athletes. Human athletes play in some degree of pain, I would venture to say, most of the time. Even weekend ammies, especially after you move out of your 20's - wouldn't you say? I know I have a model in my head that demands that I keep my horse pain free, but is that not pretty much consistent with expecting him only to ever do a little very light flat work? :confused: I know I certainly model my activities based on pain management - this notion seems like abuse when applied to the horse. In other words, it's cruel to ask the horse to work, other than just enough movement to keep the circulation in his limbs going properly, unless he's pain free. But how realistic is that for any athlete? I'm just coming back into the horse world after about 30 years away, and have been dismayed to hear about how prevalent banamine, etc. is in h/j barns. My childhood was during the TN Walking horse "soring" scandal and I've just always been hypersensitive as a result I think about horse treatment. (I never knew any of those people I want to make clear, just heard about it.) I understand of course pain drugs are given for RELIEF, but the issue is if you're masking a problem so you can keep on pushing a horse; again, I just want to be clear about my chagrin.

Anyway, to get back to my real question, it's probably quite naive to assume our horses are pain free anyway before they get to the point where something clinical emerges. How do we fix a humane point of knowing what a horse can "work through" like we do with our own aches and pains? Say, in the case of a horse that you know has a little "jewelry" that you treat and just has some NQR days? :confused:

[LovinRocky]

Interseting about the flat spot on the right stifle. One year ago I fell head over heels in love with a "retired" prelim horse. He was not sound, and had the exact symptoms as your horse, he was sore all over. He had not been competed for a year and a half.

At his pre-purchase exam, which lasted more than 2 days straight, my vet started from the hoof, blocking everything you could block, only to have him go "ouchy" in a different area. He also took x-rays from the ground up.
When we got to the stifle and blocked the middle joint of it, my horse went 100% sound. My vet said that was strange, since the 3 parts of the stifle usually "talk" to eachother, but it was amazing, he was sound. The x-ray showed a flat abnormality of the right stifle.

He injected it with straight HA, and said he did not know how long that would last. He also suggested I buy Lubrisyn, which is a feed through HA. It has been one year and I still have a sound horse.

Needless to say, I took a chance and bought the horse. (I did get him for a great price!)

From August to November 2008, I competed him 5 times novice and 1 time training. So far this year I have taken him to 1 novice and 4 training level horse trials.

So, I would really key in on the stifle issue. It may only take a HA injection and the feed through HA to keep your gal sound. My vet was not sure how many times a year my horse would require the injection, but it has been one full year and he has not required one yet.

Good luck to you!!

[bewarethechestnutmare]

It's one of those rare and precious early spring in the pacific northwest kind of evenings that make one glad to be alive... and I'm sitting on my couch, reading chronicle posts, because of my three horses, I have not one that is sound at the moment. My old prelim guy has hock issues that don't want to resolve regardless of how many dollars I throw at him. My young prospect tried to take herself out being an idiot in the pasture last night. And my training horse is coming back from a bow (which she managed to get on the 17 hour trip for some early season events in another state... guess how many of those events we were able to finish?!) So I guess I'm having a little pity party of my own here.

So, OP, the answer, which you already know is NO. They don't. Or they do. Horses don't appreciate our plans. They don't care what we want to accomplish this season or how many dollars we spend or how much heartbreak they cause. I think sometimes how much simpler life would be... how much time and money and energy I might have, if I could move on to something else. But somehow, it doesn't happen. And I shake my head and sigh and head back out to the barn, for the next round. And you know what? They're glad to see me. :sadsmile:

Keep your head up. I've learned to just take one day at a time, and keep telling myself: it won't be like this forever. It can get better. It can get worse. It always can. But it won't be like *this* for long.

[austin]

Make sure you don't overtrain. I evented for 20 years, usually had 2 competing but my full time job made it so I alternated during the week (only rode one a day M-F). I did several horses through prelim and was very lucky with soundness and now I look back I think those alternating days off might have helped.

[purplnurpl]

Make sure you don't overtrain. I evented for 20 years, usually had 2 competing but my full time job made it so I alternated during the week (only rode one a day M-F). I did several horses through prelim and was very lucky with soundness and now I look back I think those alternating days off might have helped.

No any one certain routine will work for all horses though. booo!
I know that I'm lame if I take a day off.
If I have an owie day I have to ignore it and keep truckin, then the next day I'm usually fine. If I take the day off then--nope--too bad so sad.

some horses are this way as well.

Sometimes though, when they are young and growing, you have to back up a few steps and let the parts catch up. I have had times where I've gone out to ride some of the babies I ride and I take one look and say, Wow--time for a two week break so that front end can catch up.

When Boos would hit a growth spurt he was unable to canter. He would just barf out the front and stumble back to a trot. : )

It can take some time to find the correct schedule for your horse.

[Petalstorm]

Coffin joint synovitis...

So this is what my Vet told me was the finding on the MRI. We only had time for a quick chat as he was off to the airport. He said that he had read the report and that there weren't any tears or lesions and that he was encouraged by that. He suggested we continue to rest her for the other issues (right stifle, etc) and when he gets back, to inject her coffin joints. I am slso thinking Legend and Adequan.

What experience is out there in regard to this diagnosis?
Shoeing suggestions?

In the meantime, Panda is out in her paddock happy and beautiful.
She seems to be enjoying her time off!

[Janet]

Coffin joint synovitis...

So this is what my Vet told me was the finding on the MRI. We only had time for a quick chat as he was off to the airport. He said that he had read the report and that there weren't any tears or lesions and that he was encouraged by that. He suggested we continue to rest her for the other issues (right stifle, etc) and when he gets back, to inject her coffin joints. I am slso thinking Legend and Adequan.

What experience is out there in regard to this diagnosis?
Shoeing suggestions?
Just based on my own experience, I have to wonder if the MRI based diagnosis of "coffin joint synovitis" is analogous to the X-ray based diagnosis of "navicular syndrome" a couple of decades ago.

Nowadays, we know that there are LOTS of perfectly sound horses with "bad" navicular Xrays. But back when the only horses getting foot Xrays were the lame ones, lots of people were panicing over "bad X-rays".

I wonder if something similar is happening with MRI and coffin joint synovitis- that if you did MRIs on the general population of sound horses, you would find lots with "Bad MRIs".

My own experience-

In my first attempt at Prelim, Belle and I parted company at the coffin, and she took off running. The next day she was lame in the left front. It presented like an abscess (to me), but it wasn't. Blocking confirmed that it was in the left front hoof, and ONLY the left front hoof. No bilateral lameness at all.

She wasn't consitently lame, but she would get better and worse. Always the left front.

Took her in for a bilateral MRI.

The MRI vet (one of the top in the field) called my (treating) vet, and told him it was "inflamation of the coffin joint". But when my vet got the actual report, it showed EXACTLY THE SAME "inflamation of the coffin joint" ON BOTH FEET.

So, granted, she had inflamed coffin joints- BUT THAT WASN'T WHAT WAS MAKING HER LAME.

Rest of the story- a month or so later, my farrier reported that some of the wall he was trimming off had a "very strange consistency", and moved independantly of the rest of the wall. Told the vet, and we all agreed that a real possibility was that the unmounted gallop across the (rather rocky) field had damaged something in the wall of the hoof, that was just now growing out. If she moved a certain way, it would aggravate it. If she didn't, she would be "almost sound". We put her in bar shoes with pour in pads to stabilize the hoof (which kept her sound) for another 6 months or so, then went back to regular shoes, with absolutely no recurrance.

I am now even more concientious about not running her on hard ground, and icing her feet after galloping, since I know that her coffin joints may be "in need of protection". But that isn't what made her lame.

So- the MRI shows inflamation of the coffin joints. That may or may not have anything to do with why she is off.

[purplnurpl]

Coffin joint synovitis...

So this is what my Vet told me was the finding on the MRI. We only had time for a quick chat as he was off to the airport. He said that he had read the report and that there weren't any tears or lesions and that he was encouraged by that. He suggested we continue to rest her for the other issues (right stifle, etc) and when he gets back, to inject her coffin joints. I am also thinking Legend and Adequan.

What experience is out there in regard to this diagnosis?
Shoeing suggestions?

In the meantime, Panda is out in her paddock happy and beautiful.
She seems to be enjoying her time off!

oui. Did you MR both front feet or only the lame one?
Where does she block out sound again?