Farrier causing sore backs? Or unrelated cases- MYSTERY SOLVED! update page 3

[LearnToFly]

Okay, another sore back question to throw to the masses:

my horse is no longer the only horse in the barn to be severely back sore. There are two more and it all started around the same time, about a month ago. These three horses don't go out in the same field (though they are all muddy), they don't do the same stuff (one is a lesson horse, one does mostly flatwork, and my boy does 2'6-3' equitation/jumpers), or have the same riders, they aren't the same breed (OTTB, QH, appendix). The only thing I can think that they have in common is the farrier.

We switched to a new one about 6 months ago (who uses a different kind of shoe and trims differently than the old one.), and one of the other owners said that was when she began to notice her horse was having problems. I'm sort of wondering if that was when my gelding started to have problems but he just took a long time in showing it. Is there something that the farrier could be doing that has subtly caused sore backs in all three horses that are manifesting themselves 6 months after he initially started shoeing them?

OR is there any thing you can think of that would be causing all three of them to suddenly be sore at the same time?

[BornToRide]

Sure, very possible. Depends on how each horse compensates for the changes or how the farrier addresses each hoof.....do you have any hoof pictures to share?

In addition diet changes can be another possibility - have all the affected horses had a new and same feed added?

[LearnToFly]

Sure, very possible. Depends on how each horse compensates for the changes or how the farrier addresses each hoof.....do you have any hoof pictures to share?

In addition diet changes can be another possibility - have all the affected horses had a new and same feed added?

I can take hoof pictures; I'll do that tomorrow

All three have been on the same feed/rations for several years, only addition is that mine is getting an electrolyte.

[BornToRide]

OK, in this case I think we can safely rule out diet then :)

I just had another thought that although highly unlikely, is still a possibility.....any chance those horses are ridden by someone without your knowledge?

[LearnToFly]

nope! I live there so there's not a whole lot that goes on riding-wise that I don't know about. Plus, I'm really one of only a few people that can stand to ride my gelding! :lol:

[BornToRide]

Whew, good!! :)

[Amwrider]

Are they barefoot behind or shod behind?

I had some horses start getting sore in their hips/sacroilliac area when a farrier started putting their angles behind lower.

[LearnToFly]

all are shod behind, although I pulled my horse's back shoes last thursday when he got trimmed because I forsee him having some time off and I'm broke.... Since then his back has been a little better but he is also on robaxin

I will add that my horse does NOT like to hold his back feet up for this farrier at the angle he pulls his hips out to file.

[BornToRide]

I will add that my horse does NOT like to hold his back feet up for this farrier at the angle he pulls his hips out to file.Yeah, that is often an issue with farriers. I often hear "boy I have not seen him/her stand that quietly for a trim on his hinds before" when I am almost done with both. The only cause I can think of is that they got their legs jerked up too high before or held at an uncomfortable angle.

[Tom Stovall]

LearnToFly in gray

Okay, another sore back question to throw to the masses:

my horse is no longer the only horse in the barn to be severely back sore. There are two more and it all started around the same time, about a month ago. These three horses don't go out in the same field (though they are all muddy), they don't do the same stuff (one is a lesson horse, one does mostly flatwork, and my boy does 2'6-3' equitation/jumpers), or have the same riders, they aren't the same breed (OTTB, QH, appendix). The only thing I can think that they have in common is the farrier.

We switched to a new one about 6 months ago (who uses a different kind of shoe and trims differently than the old one.), and one of the other owners said that was when she began to notice her horse was having problems. I'm sort of wondering if that was when my gelding started to have problems but he just took a long time in showing it. Is there something that the farrier could be doing that has subtly caused sore backs in all three horses that are manifesting themselves 6 months after he initially started shoeing them? [bf mine]

Most often, when a horse is trimmed/shod so out of whack that it causes a problem, the problem is in the joints of the lower leg. Despite the rantings of the resident genius, it would be extremely difficult for anyone to purposely trim/shoe a horse in such a way that its back was affected without affecting those joints first. That said, other than the change in farriers, the only other commonality appears to be muddy turnout: Is there any evidence of their slipping/falling due to poor footing?

Imbalanced, inexpert, trimming/shoeing usually has an immediate effect on the affected joints - and the harder the ground, the more immediate and pronounced the effect. On the other hand, poor footing can cause problems in unexpected places when the limbs are forced into abnormal positions by slipping and/or falling.

OR is there any thing you can think of that would be causing all three of them to suddenly be sore at the same time?

It might possibly be the farrier, but the chronology is skewed and the problems are in the wrong place. Are these problems most evident at the first of the week? Did they become manifest after the horses were turned out in mud? It's certainly puzzling: What does the veterinarian who diagnosed these back problems believe to be the cause?

[matryoshka]

Can't rule out the possibility, but I haven't yet seen horses with sore backs caused by a farrier or trimmer. Not definitively. If their way of going changed due to something the farrier is doing differently, then it seems more likely to be a possibility. Are the horses going differently? Are they landing toe first, flat, or heel first? When you look at them from the front or back, are their feet landing mostly flat that way (medial/lateral)? It might help to video tape their movement with and without a rider so you can see what is going on, in circles and in straight lines.

I've seen sore backs caused by poor saddle fit. Such as, with the grass coming in, have the horses gained weight to the point where the saddles might pinch?

Was there an increase in the riding once the weather got nice? I'm wondering if there is something less obvious in common between these horses.

Also, is every horse this farrier shoes/trims now back sore? Or just some?

[Auventera Two]

I trim hind feet in the hoof cradle, which is set directly behind the horse where their leg would naturally hang. I don't ever do hind feet pulled out into my lap. I've had several owners tell me how thankful they are that I don't do this, because they've always felt it causes lower back pain in horses. I don't know if it does or not, but I don't do it because I feel the horses are just much happier and more comfortable with their foot low and directly behind them on the hoof cradle.

[Petstorejunkie]

It sounds to me like there are 3 possible causes for the back pain.
1. mud and slipping (very possible)
2. farrier caused imbalance
3. saddle fit

In order to determine which one, or combination is the cause you must eliminate them one at a time for 6 weeks or so and keep a log of any changes. You also have to be open to the idea that the horses cases may be completely unrelated.

I am guessing since you said the horses are not turned out together yet are all turned out in mud that your facility is a realy mud pit, and moving to another barn would be the only option for elimination. In that case i'd leave it as the last variable.
A farrier can take a well balanced horse and over the course of 6 months with minor mistakes wind up with a real mess. If you can try someone else for a shoeing or two and note ANY improvement that's ideal. But we all know how insecure farrier's egos can be when we go changing things.
While you may have a well fitted saddle, many horses' backs go thru drastic changes over the winter and you may not have the best fit you did last season. Check your saddle fit, and see if you need that special pad, or gel thingy, or fleecy thing under there any more.

[LearnToFly]

It's certainly puzzling: What does the veterinarian who diagnosed these back problems believe to be the cause?

My vet doesn't know what could have caused it in either horse. I'm a bit frustrated because we are treating the symptom more than trying to find the cause.

Is slipping around in the mud a more likely cause? He has just recently started going out in a better established field that just got off rest and I haven't seen much improvement since so I just assumed that it wasn't the cause. He also hasn't been ridden in over a month, so saddle fit should no longer be causing the issue since he is on bute and robaxin.

He does have arthritic hocks, but when I asked my vet if she thought that his sore hocks could be causing the back problem, she watched me trot him out and said that his hocks look fine. Of course, now he's had too much time off and they are a bit stiff. Otherwise, his behavior in the field and general way of going are normal and he looks and acts sound- except that he flinches and scoots away at the slightest pressure on his back- however, he is LESS responsive when you mess with his back WITH the saddle on.

[BornToRide]

Is slipping around in the mud a more likely cause? He has just recently started going out in a better established field that just got off rest and I haven't seen much improvement since so I just assumed that it wasn't the cause. He also hasn't been ridden in over a month, so saddle fit should no longer be causing the issue since he is on bute and robaxin.
May be in some cases - mine is out 24/7 and a regular mud slider ( we live in the Pac NW) . It has never bothered his back , nor were the other two horses with him and plenty others I know ever affected, unless they did a really stupid movement in the mud.

[Rick Burten]

In addition diet changes can be another possibility - have all the affected horses had a new and same feed added?
How, pray tell, does diet or diet changes cause a sore back?

[JHUshoer20]

OK, in this case I think we can safely rule out diet then :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[chancellor2]

I wonder if we can rule out thyroid problems though. What about someone SNEAKING NSC's into their food?

[BornToRide]

I wonder if we can rule out thyroid problems though. What about someone SNEAKING NSC's into their food?Do you know how childish this actually makes you look??! :lol::lol::lol:

[chancellor2]

Oooh, I am so glad to look young. But, I don't think it is my typing. It is because I use sunscreen everyday and avoid the Ultraviolet rays which cause wrinkling and make people look older.

[Tom Stovall]

LearnToFly in gray

My vet doesn't know what could have caused it in either horse. I'm a bit frustrated because we are treating the symptom more than trying to find the cause.

It's got to be frustrating. :(

Is slipping around in the mud a more likely cause? He has just recently started going out in a better established field that just got off rest and I haven't seen much improvement since so I just assumed that it wasn't the cause.

Slipping is certainly a possibility and both the chronology and location of the soreness are more probable than the simultaneous development of sore backs in three horses six months after a change in trimming/shoes. :)

He also hasn't been ridden in over a month, so saddle fit should no longer be causing the issue since he is on bute and robaxin.

Given the lack of commonality, I don't think saddle fit is much of a player, although, as has been suggested, the possibility of changes in the shape of the horses' backs exists.

He does have arthritic hocks, but when I asked my vet if she thought that his sore hocks could be causing the back problem, she watched me trot him out and said that his hocks look fine. Of course, now he's had too much time off and they are a bit stiff. Otherwise, his behavior in the field and general way of going are normal and he looks and acts sound- except that he flinches and scoots away at the slightest pressure on his back- however, he is LESS responsive when you mess with his back WITH the saddle on.

This is a reach, but is there any possibility of these horses being skin sore instead of muscle sore? A sensitivity to shampoo, fly spray, or liniment can make a horse so skin sore it appears to have a sore back. Does any commonality exist?

[LearnToFly]

This is a reach, but is there any possibility of these horses being skin sore instead of muscle sore? A sensitivity to shampoo, fly spray, or liniment can make a horse so skin sore it appears to have a sore back. Does any commonality exist?

I guess it's possible. Mine has always had sensitive skin and he currently has rainrot that's developed since this has started because he's been out in the rain, and he is so pissy about letting me brush his back now that I've been only using a soft face brush and it doesn't do quite as good a job. The other two are laid back guys that have never seemed to have sensitive skin or be touchy. My hunch says that its a muscle issue moreso than a skin sensitivity one.

[ThirdCharm]

Studies at NC State have demonstrated a correlation between the horizontal distance from the point of breakover to the tip of the P3 on the hind foot and back soreness... the greater the distance, the more likely the horse is to demonstrate soreness in the back and hindquarters. And apparently reducing the distance leads to a decrease in soreness, which I have noted many times in my own shoeing practice shoeing after farriers who would not/could not address breakover issues.

Jennifer

[BornToRide]

Studies at NC State have demonstrated a correlation between the horizontal distance from the point of breakover to the tip of the P3 on the hind foot and back soreness... the greater the distance, the more likely the horse is to demonstrate soreness in the back and hindquarters. And apparently reducing the distance leads to a decrease in soreness, which I have noted many times in my own shoeing practice shoeing after farriers who would not/could not address breakover issues.

Jennifer
Yep, my experience also.

[LMH]

With the info you provided I would be looking at how that farrier holds the hinds to trim (as some have suggested).

I would also be looking for imbalances in the trim-my first look would be to long toes or negative coffin bone angles in the rear.

I am not saying that IS the problem-just where I would start.

Of course taking your brave pill and posting photos would be most helpful for the second guess.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

When my most favoritist farrier in the whole world retired, Prozac Pony developed a sore back after 1 or 2 shoeings with the new guy (who shod for a number of really picky women at the barn, so clearly he wasn't a total loser).

Switched to a different farrier, and back soreness went away.

[Tom Stovall]

ThirdCharm in gray, stuff deleted

Studies at NC State have demonstrated a correlation between the horizontal distance from the point of breakover to the tip of the P3 on the hind foot and back soreness...

Please post a path to these studies, I'd like to read them.

Thanks.

[ThirdCharm]

ThirdCharm in gray, stuff deleted

Studies at NC State have demonstrated a correlation between the horizontal distance from the point of breakover to the tip of the P3 on the hind foot and back soreness...

Please post a path to these studies, I'd like to read them.

Thanks.

Haven't seen them firsthand, Dr. Mansmann cited them in a seminar I attended; I would imagine you could get the information from NC State.

Jennifer

[Tom Stovall]

ThirdCharm in gray

Haven't seen them firsthand, Dr. Mansmann cited them in a seminar I attended; I would imagine you could get the information from NC State.

I have the utmost respect for Dr. Mansmann, both as a veterinarian and as a scientist, but I can't find anything he's published that agrees with your statement regarding longer levers on hinds exacerbating back problems.

Would it be possible for you to cite the specific paper?

In my experience, overlong levers on hinds most often cause hock problems, not back problems. YMMV.

[matryoshka]

And stifle issues, too. I've relieved a few of these by shortening the breakover on the hinds.

It seems reasonable that changing the feet could cause soreness in the back if it changes the way a horse is moving. I know back soreness can make a horse appear to be lame (have seen this at vet checks following CTR and endurance competitions). So there is a relationship there.

I'm just wondering if there isn't a more subtle commonality here. Like saddle fit, change in footing, increase in work load, etc.

[LearnToFly]

Studies at NC State have demonstrated a correlation between the horizontal distance from the point of breakover to the tip of the P3 on the hind foot and back soreness... the greater the distance, the more likely the horse is to demonstrate soreness in the back and hindquarters. And apparently reducing the distance leads to a decrease in soreness, which I have noted many times in my own shoeing practice shoeing after farriers who would not/could not address breakover issues.

Jennifer

Can someone translate this? I'm an advertising major, we don't look at things with words this long :lol:

[ThirdCharm]

Tom--

As I said, Dr. Mansmann discussed it at a seminar I attended. It may even be currently ongoing, therefore not published yet. The data was quite interesting, although correlative of course.

IME back problems and hock/stifle problems often go hand-in-hand, and the back is often overlooked. The hock is nicely injectable, results-producing for owners and revenue-producing for the vets!

Jennifer

[caffeinated]

ThirdCharm in gray

Haven't seen them firsthand, Dr. Mansmann cited them in a seminar I attended; I would imagine you could get the information from NC State.

I have the utmost respect for Dr. Mansmann, both as a veterinarian and as a scientist, but I can't find anything he's published that agrees with your statement regarding longer levers on hinds exacerbating back problems.

Would it be possible for you to cite the specific paper?

In my experience, overlong levers on hinds most often cause hock problems, not back problems. YMMV.

Tom, just an innocent question, but couldn't problems in the hocks or any other part of the leg transfer to the back? If the horse isn't moving normally or travelling normally, couldn't the different movement or stilted movement cause some back strain (much like wearing certain kinds of shoes can make my lower back hurt after a while)?

I'm not super experienced or knowledgable but did notice a change in my horse's back reactivity upon changing farriers in the past, so that always seemed to make sense to me.

[BornToRide]

Tom, just an innocent question, but couldn't problems in the hocks or any other part of the leg transfer to the back? If the horse isn't moving normally or travelling normally, couldn't the different movement or stilted movement cause some back strain (much like wearing certain kinds of shoes can make my lower back hurt after a while)?

I'm not super experienced or knowledgable but did notice a change in my horse's back reactivity upon changing farriers in the past, so that always seemed to make sense to me.Totally - just think about how your body compensates when you wear certain shoes, like high heels for example, versus maybe shoes with a slippery sole.

Horse are no different - they will compensate too for anything that might affect their bodies negatively.

[matryoshka]

It is surprisning that hock injections are going to mask back pain. Unless the problems in the hocks caused the back pain, and the injections helped the horse move better. I'm not sure the cause and effect in that example is adequately established.

Perhaps even standing posture can affect the back. This is a very interesting question.

I trimmed a horse today that has a very sore back (poor saddle fit was easy enough to establish as a culprit--that saddle was tight). This horse had trouble bringing his hind legs forward for finishing. He was able to extend them backwards just fine.

[goeslikestink]

I guess it's possible. Mine has always had sensitive skin and he currently has rainrot that's developed since this has started because he's been out in the rain, and he is so pissy about letting me brush his back now that I've been only using a soft face brush and it doesn't do quite as good a job. The other two are laid back guys that have never seemed to have sensitive skin or be touchy. My hunch says that its a muscle issue moreso than a skin sensitivity one.

theres your problem then nothing to do with a farrrier

did you know rianrot is contagious you have to treat all the horses and hygene protocol comes into play disinfect everthing and have a foot bath on exit entry of yard

[BornToRide]

Perhaps even standing posture can affect the back. This is a very interesting question.
Sure can - my horse had a tendency to stand more sickle hocked when he was still in shoes. That completely disappeared when he was taken barefoot.... :)

[goeslikestink]

Sure can - my horse had a tendency to stand more sickle hocked when he was still in shoes. That completely disappeared when he was taken barefoot.... :)

as if

[LearnToFly]

theres your problem then nothing to do with a farrrier

did you know rianrot is contagious you have to treat all the horses and hygene protocol comes into play disinfect everthing and have a foot bath on exit entry of yard

the rainrot has only developed within the last week; the back issues have been going on for a month. I made an appointment with the chiropractor for Friday and will report back here when I hear what he has to say. My new theory for my gelding is that he might have a pinched nerve, and that the other two cases might be unrelated. I did take pictures of his feet, and I'll post them in a minute but I don't think that's the cause anymore.

[matryoshka]

I hate rain rot! I have not had it go from horse to horse in a contagious fashion. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Good luck with your horse. I hope it turns out to be something that is easily relieved.

[goeslikestink]

the rainrot has only developed within the last week; the back issues have been going on for a month. I made an appointment with the chiropractor for Friday and will report back here when I hear what he has to say. My new theory for my gelding is that he might have a pinched nerve, and that the other two cases might be unrelated. I did take pictures of his feet, and I'll post them in a minute but I don't think that's the cause anymore.

it takes time for rian rot to show so you know the horse has it,,, its skin deep and can cause sore back especially if the horses are ridden as the friction of the saddle on top of the rainrot

think rash then becomes a sore if you pick it or rub it all the time

[LearnToFly]

it takes time for rian rot to show so you know the horse has it,,, its skin deep and can cause sore back especially if the horses are ridden as the friction of the saddle on top of the rainrot

think rash then becomes a sore if you pick it or rub it all the time

Good call, GLS; Chiropractor visit today. DVM had to pop his hip joint back into alignment and thinks that a combo of that and the rain rot/skin sensitivity is what is causing his issue. And I tell you what, that ONE small adjustment and I have one HAPPY HAPPY horse! Which is an incredible feeling after the past month! We aren't sure what caused the other two to be sore, but they are much better as well!

[merrygoround]

Good call, GLS; Chiropractor visit today. DVM had to pop his hip joint back into alignment and thinks that a combo of that and the rain rot/skin sensitivity is what is causing his issue. And I tell you what, that ONE small adjustment and I have one HAPPY HAPPY horse! Which is an incredible feeling after the past month! We aren't sure what caused the other two to be sore, but they are much better as well!

Oh Shucks, all this without a change in diet, and without pulling his shoes!!

Sorry :cry:! Just couldn't resist:D!

[JB]

Oh Shucks, all this without a change in diet, and without pulling his shoes!!

Sorry :cry:! Just couldn't resist:D!

Well, let's see - diet was ruled out (by BTR no less!) on post #4, and a few posts later we found the hind shoes had been pulled last Thursday ;)

Sorry, just couldn't resist ;)

[JB]

How, pray tell, does diet or diet changes cause a sore back?
A horse who has low Selenium can have sore-everything, including sore back muscles.


IME back problems and hock/stifle problems often go hand-in-hand, and the back is often overlooked. The hock is nicely injectable, results-producing for owners and revenue-producing for the vets!

Jennifer
Amen. What happens to the feet easily can (not must) affect the hocks and stifles and SI area and back, in some combination either singly or in multiples. Much depends on the horse's inherent conformation and what he prefers to do as compensation.

Tom, just an innocent question, but couldn't problems in the hocks or any other part of the leg transfer to the back? If the horse isn't moving normally or travelling normally, couldn't the different movement or stilted movement cause some back strain (much like wearing certain kinds of shoes can make my lower back hurt after a while)?

I'm not super experienced or knowledgable but did notice a change in my horse's back reactivity upon changing farriers in the past, so that always seemed to make sense to me.
Absolutely. Try walking around in lopsided shoes for a while. Knees and hips and the back eventually start to suffer.

[BornToRide]

Well, let's see - diet was ruled out (by BTR no less!) on post #4, and a few posts later we found the hind shoes had been pulled last Thursday ;)

Sorry, just couldn't resist ;)Thank you JB :)

[chancellor2]

Well, let's see - diet was ruled out (by BTR no less!) on post #4, and a few posts later we found the hind shoes had been pulled last Thursday ;)

Sorry, just couldn't resist ;)

Oh fer Crissakes, if you use the same 'diagnosis' for EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM in EVERY SINGLE THREAD you are bound to be right once in a while. A broken watch is correct twice a day.

[Androcles]

Originally Posted by ThirdCharm
Studies at NC State have demonstrated a correlation between the horizontal distance from the point of breakover to the tip of the P3 on the hind foot and back soreness... the greater the distance, the more likely the horse is to demonstrate soreness in the back and hindquarters. And apparently reducing the distance leads to a decrease in soreness, which I have noted many times in my own shoeing practice shoeing after farriers who would not/could not address breakover issues.

Jennifer

Can someone translate this? I'm an advertising major, we don't look at things with words this long :lol:

Long toes behind make back sore.

[goeslikestink]

so do both types of spavins as they can give a false illusion of a bad back becuase they cant get there hinds underneath them

a horse can also show signs of a back back ridden with bad hands

and neither one is related to diet

[Tom Bloomer]

so do both types of spavins as they can give a false illusion of a bad back becuase they cant get there hinds underneath them

a horse can also show signs of a back back ridden with bad hands

and neither one is related to diet
Well . . . I see a lot of riders that seem to think they need to "feed" their horse the bit. Once in a while I put somebody on my horse so they can show me their good hands. After a few trips around the ring backwards with the horse's head stuck in the air trying to chew the bit in half the rider finally figures out what "loose rein" means on a western broke horse. :cool:

[goeslikestink]

Well . . . I see a lot of riders that seem to think they need to "feed" their horse the bit. Once in a while I put somebody on my horse so they can show me their good hands. After a few trips around the ring backwards with the horse's head stuck in the air trying to chew the bit in half the rider finally figures out what "loose rein" means on a western broke horse. :cool: lol

[matryoshka]

A broken watch is correct twice a day.I love this quote!

[bntnail]

I think farriers all across the land should receive an apology!:mad: It never fails that when a problem arises or the horse doesn't preform then they get their butts chewed off. Usually behind their backs.:cry: But, should the horse do well, then the owner/trainer claim all the credit. Since I know this will never come to pass, I will pretend I heard an apology whispering faintly on the wind, barely audible over the rustling of the leaves of a giant old Sycamore.:lol:

[matryoshka]

Yep, I get a call anytime a horse has any problem, from fever to going off feed. They always seem to want to know, "Could it have had anything to do with your trim?" You have to grow a tough skin to work on horse feet.

[LearnToFly]

I hearby apologize to all farriers on this thread for wondering if the shoeing job could be a commonality among the sore backs in our barn, even though I was considering all other possibilities, including my own seat and saddle, as well. ;)

[JB]

Please don't apologize!

YES, poor hoof care (trimming or shoeing) CAN, and HAS, caused a myriad of leg and back problems.

That does not mean that it WILL, even if it's a bad job. It is just one possibility and should absolutely be ruled out.

[Tom Stovall]

LearnToFly in gray

I hearby apologize to all farriers on this thread for wondering if the shoeing job could be a commonality among the sore backs in our barn, even though I was considering all other possibilities, including my own seat and saddle, as well. ;)

As I see it, no apology is needed or expected because trimming/shoeing could've been a player. Some of the referenced studies suggested overlong toes on hinds can affect the hocks and change a horse's way of going. In turn, that change in a horse's way of going can lead to a sore back under some circumstances.

As Calvin said, "Careful, we don't want to learn from this." :)

[arabhorse2]

Oh fer Crissakes, if you use the same 'diagnosis' for EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM in EVERY SINGLE THREAD you are bound to be right once in a while. A broken watch is correct twice a day.

Even a blind pig can find an acorn now and again......

[matryoshka]

I don't think an apology was necessary, either. It just seems that the trimmer/farrier is often the first suspect no matter what happens to a horse. :D

I want my clients to tell me if their horse has a sore back.

BTW, I trimmed a semi-wild mini over a month ago. The day after I trimmed her, she got loose and was hiding in the woods for 4 days. They seemed to think my trimming her had something to do with this. I kid you not. I had been gentle with her and can't help that she'd not had her feet done before.

[grayarabpony]

I think farriers all across the land should receive an apology!:mad: It never fails that when a problem arises or the horse doesn't preform then they get their butts chewed off. Usually behind their backs.:cry: But, should the horse do well, then the owner/trainer claim all the credit. Since I know this will never come to pass, I will pretend I heard an apology whispering faintly on the wind, barely audible over the rustling of the leaves of a giant old Sycamore.:lol:

Oh brother. I will pretend that I hear certain farriers whispering that they are going to get over themselves. :lol:

[BornToRide]

Oh fer Crissakes, if you use the same 'diagnosis' for EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM in EVERY SINGLE THREAD you are bound to be right once in a while. A broken watch is correct twice a day.
You keep forgetting - please note, for the 100s time, I don't and cannot diagnose - only doctors can do that. :yes:

[chancellor2]

BTR (aka Born to be Right), it isn't ME who forgets that you cannot diagnose which is why I put the word in quotes in my original post.

[matryoshka]

Sorry, but this gets really old. If what a poster has to say is bothersome, put them on "ignore" rather than providing more for the rest of us to sift through.

It's bickering, plain and simple. Agree, disagree, whatever. But bicker? Silly.

Rant over. Sorry for the digression. I need to take my own advice.

[grayarabpony]

BTW, I trimmed a semi-wild mini over a month ago. The day after I trimmed her, she got loose and was hiding in the woods for 4 days. They seemed to think my trimming her had something to do with this. I kid you not. I had been gentle with her and can't help that she'd not had her feet done before.

That's pretty funny, although it probably didn't seem funny to you at the time. Pretty stupid on the owners' part too.

I think it would be best to look at the feet first whenever a horse is having a problem; sadly, many hoof care professional immediately jump to thinking they're being flat-out blamed. Owners need to understand how foot issues can make horses sore, and farriers/ trimmers need to be able to discuss these issues with owners. Often there's a lack on both sides.

[matryoshka]

...I think it would be best to look at the feet first whenever a horse is having a problem; sadly, many hoof care professional immediately jump to thinking they're being flat-out blamed. Owners need to understand how foot issues can make horses sore, and farriers/ trimmers need to be able to discuss these issues with owners. Often there's a lack on both sides.This is true. I'll remind myself of your words the next time a client calls to ask me if a fever of 103 has anything to do with my having trimmed the horse a few days prior. :D It's a good point, but we do get questioned about a lot of totally unrelated issues. A thick skin is an asset in this business. A good sense of humor is even more essential!