Too much for BN?

[Sabovee]

I went to the third short course at Loch Moy yesterday. My horse and I are new to eventing, we're both dressage types. We attended the first two of the series, going out at BN. First one the xc was cancelled due to rain so we did stadium, he jumped everything but pulled a rail. Second one we got a 29 in dressage and went clean xc, he jumped everything and never hesitated. He's never refused anything while schooling.

This time we were first after the dressage with a 30.5
Then we get to xcountry! There were some really big imposing looking fences. Fence 3 had a ton of refusals, he jumped that no problem. Fence 4 was a big log with a horse head INTO the first water complex. My horse said uh uh. I was eliminated at that fence, but chose to finish the course. The next fence was a second water complex, a green bench looking thing into the water (this fence http://www.themarylandhorsetrials.com/images/xc1.jpg).

There were 14 people in my BN division. They pinned to 4th only, 10 of the competitors were eliminated! I felt when I walked the course that the fences into the water were very large (I'm sure they were max height), plus the fact that you're jumping into water.... I'm not super experienced at this, but is that normal?

I really love the short courses, and everyone at Loch Moy is always super, but yesterdays course left me feeling very over faced.

[Auburn]

BN should not have jumps into water. They are supposed to have an inviting water crossing. At recognized BN, I have seen a jump, then three strides to a water complex crossing, but not a jump directly into the water. It sounds like more of a Novice question to me.

[tikidoc]

Sounds unusual for BN, in my quite limited experience. How many strides from the fence to the water? I think it certainly shows there is a problem, if 10/14 get eliminated on XC.

[LR1976]

Wow yeah...ummm. That's a bit much for BN. Had I had to jump into the water when I was going BN there is no way. I know the rules say something about water being a simple pass thru or something like that. And when only 4 out of 14 riders make it thru...that says something right there.

[Sabovee]

The first water had a stride into the water, you basically landed, and then the next stride you were in the water. The second one had maybe two or three into the water.

I was one of the first people to go through the BN course, so I was bummed - thought maybe I suck more at this than originially planned. And then we started seeing people coming off left right and center! There was easily 4 loose horses during the BN division....

[tikidoc]

Last year at MayDaze at Novice, they had a fence with 3 or 4 strides into the water (I don't think the water itself was flagged) and lots of people thought that was too much (especially for an event that is traditionally supposed to be a move-up). I saw several get dumped at that fence. I can't imagine that at BN but I don't know enough to say if it is against any rules (need to go to the USEA website).

[SparklePlenty]

I had 2 friends go to the short course yesterday - one was in BN w/her greenie and she said the same thing.

She wanted a good few outings before Seneca this summer.. the last thing she wanted was a bad experience for the green bean.

A log w/ 1-2 strides into the water is QUITE a question even at novice IMO.

[Maya01]

BN should not have jumps into water. They are supposed to have an inviting water crossing. At recognized BN, I have seen a jump, then three strides to a water complex crossing, but not a jump directly into the water. It sounds like more of a Novice question to me.

Actually they usually have a water crossing that you can go through or not go through. A fence into water is usually introduced only at training level. At Novice/pre-training level a fence going out of water is introduced...BN should not have a mandatory water crossing :/

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I've been at novice events with a drop into water....and ones with a jump land on land and then go right into the water.


Honestly....from what I've seen BN isn't usually much easier than novice. The picture of the green fence isn't max BN height....but it is big enough.


That said...I agree with you. Just getting down the ramp into the water is a big enough question for BN horses.


If I had been at that event....I would have said forget the time...gone around the fences and through the water first, got my horse's feet wet and then gone and jumped the jumps. No way would any greenie I have at BN be ready to tackle a jump that close to water that they haven't gone through yet already.

[tikidoc]

Actually they usually have a water crossing that you can go through or not go through. A fence into water is usually introduced only at training level. At Novice/pre-training level a fence going out of water is introduced...BN should not have a mandatory water crossing :/

Wow, really? MayDaze was the only BN I have done where the water was NOT a flagged obstacle. We had a jump maybe 5 or 6 strides out from the water, then the water then out, and a turn and another fence, as I remember. My horse balked a bit at the water after jumping the fence OK (but he was looking at the water as we took the jump) but ended up going through. And I suppose you could go around the water but it would have been a really long ways around. I didn't see anyone do that.

At novice, I don't think the water was flagged either but it was only a couple strides out from the water, so not really possible to go around it, and the fence after the water was right after the water, as I remember.

[Carolinadreamin']

Also for BN, what about including a large rolltop at the crest of a large hill? It looks like you're jumping off into nowhere, hard downhill landing. Just curious.

[yellowbritches]

The really amazing thing is that at the short course a couple of weeks ago, water wasn't even ON the BN course...we had a baby horse there who was there just for the sake of going through the water in a competition type setting (the boss rode the horse through the water, anyway). That's a lot for BN. Most times, it is just a pass through, or a pass through with a little jump a few strides after. It's even more considering it is an unrecognized "event" (basically, a glorified combined test).

I wonder if they flagged it wrong??

[Bobthehorse]

Im in Canada, our BN equivalent is Entry at 2'9''. I dont know about you, but at recognized shows here, Entry cannot have a jump at entry or exit of the water. Entry can only have a water crossing, flagged on one side only, with mandatory option. Our N, 3', can have jumps out of water, and jumps that land a few strides out from the water, but again, never in the water. So anything that actually lands in the water, is a Training question. However, I get the feeling you folks in US might not have such rules for xc, because it says under Training that bounces are NOT permitted, and only recently I read something on here about a bounce at Training.

[Tazzie]

The really amazing thing is that at the short course a couple of weeks ago, water wasn't even ON the BN course...we had a baby horse there who was there just for the sake of going through the water in a competition type setting (the boss rode the horse through the water, anyway). That's a lot for BN. Most times, it is just a pass through, or a pass through with a little jump a few strides after. It's even more considering it is an unrecognized "event" (basically, a glorified combined test).

I wonder if they flagged it wrong??

Yellowbritches - you hit the nail right on the head with this post. Last course we had a ton of complaints that there wasn't any water, so, admittedly in error, too much water was added this time. Carolyn is still trying to find that balance with her courses. The Elementary and Novice and Training rode fantastically, it was just the Beginner Novice that was a bit off. Although Training did end up needing a small adjustment to fences 4 and 11, but we were able to fix them well before the division started.

For those of you with complaints, they are certainly valid, please feel free to let Carolyn know of your opinions. She desperately wants everybody to be happy and for the courses to be ones that people want to ride and that do build confidence for the horses. She hosts approx 9 Derbies throughout the year and this year she has added a few unrecognized in addition the derbies. Therefore any constructive criticism is wonderful to hear.

[Sabovee]

This is definitely not a thread to knock Loch Moy - I absolutely LOVE showing there, the staff, organizers EVERYONE is wonderful, the venue can't be beat. I will absolutely be back for their unrec'd HT and future short courses. HIGHLY recommend! I was just trying to get a feel if this was something that was generally asked at BN or if I was just waaay under prepared.


Carolyn does a fabulous job with these shows.

[Tazzie]

This is definitely not a thread to knock Loch Moy - I absolutely LOVE showing there, the staff, organizers EVERYONE is wonderful, the venue can't be beat. I will absolutely be back for their unrec'd HT and future short courses. HIGHLY recommend! I was just trying to get a feel if this was something that was generally asked at BN or if I was just waaay under prepared.


Carolyn does a fabulous job with these shows.

Ha, and we love having you come out Sabovee! I'm glad you started the thread, b/c in the long run it will help us out with our future courses. We have one volunteer that says NO water on Elementary and Beginner Novice, and then you have me who has always said water was necessary to prepare, however it's always been my opinion that the water be an option like it has been in the past. To me the option is the perfect way to go. That way you do have a jump near water so a horse gets the idea that there are jumps and water near eachother and to pay attention to the jump. But for those ready they can run through the water without it being judged, and for those not ready they can just go around. I have always felt that this was the best way to do it, but of course my opinion is only one of many! :D

[Tazzie]

Also - for all of you in the Beginner Novice division - THANK YOU SO MUCH! It was our biggest division of the day, and as expected the xcty started with a few people ready and then all of a sudden I had 20+ people ready! I was the starter and did my best to stay organized, so a big thank you to everybody who waited patiently and with a smile. At these shows we don't have a large volunteer base. Therefore I was the xcty starter and I also judged the 1st two and last 2 on course, then I had a couple people in the back of the course that judged the rest. That meant that for the most part I was sending everybody almost 1 at a time. I was usually able to get the next person out after I saw a competitor get through the 2nd water.

So thanks again for your patience and understand as we got it all arranged. Barring the BN #4 mishap I hope everybody had a wonderful day.

[Carol Ames]

I did nothink a jump into water was allowed? at Novice:no:

[foxhavenfarm]

Not until Training.

[InVA]

If memory serves the Training level at Rubicon had you jump a log, land ON land.. then the next stride went into the ramp into water.. and Rubicon is always a challenging course for horses confirmed at the level at which they are competing. A landing INTO water definitely sounds inappropriate for BN... or even Novice!

[rabicon]

Here we have at tadpole and BN to go thru water (you can squeeze thru the flag and water if your horse won't go in) but you have to do it and they do not count refusals at the water in tadple or BN which is nice. But it is a run into and a run out with no jump around it.

[Tazzie]

Just to make sure that there is an understanding of the course yesterday:

The first water you jumped a log, landed on land, 1 stride on land, than a run through water.

The 2nd water you jumped a small bench, landed on land, 2 strides on land, then a run through the water.

Not saying that this still isn't appropriate for this level, but there is talk about jumping into water, which isn't the case.

Of course if my memory is wrong then please let me know.

[Ajierene]

Ha, and we love having you come out Sabovee! I'm glad you started the thread, b/c in the long run it will help us out with our future courses. We have one volunteer that says NO water on Elementary and Beginner Novice, and then you have me who has always said water was necessary to prepare, however it's always been my opinion that the water be an option like it has been in the past. To me the option is the perfect way to go. That way you do have a jump near water so a horse gets the idea that there are jumps and water near eachother and to pay attention to the jump. But for those ready they can run through the water without it being judged, and for those not ready they can just go around. I have always felt that this was the best way to do it, but of course my opinion is only one of many! :D

I think options are a great idea, especially at these levels. I have been on Elementary courses where running through water was an option. You could run through it and get to the jump about 5 strides after it or go around the water. The jump was situated somewhat in a 'corner', so it was a nice straight shot either way. Plantation Field comes to mind for this.

Olde Hope tends to be full of options for those levels. You can run through the water and up a bank (18" or so) or run next to the water and take a simple jump appropriate for the level. They have a hill with a down bank (sometimes run the other way as an up bank-the hill is artificial) with a jump directly next to it that you can do instead.

They also have some height/direction options where the somewhat harder/scarier looking jump is more of a straight shot to the next jump than the easier option.

so yeah, options!

[rabicon]

This is still to much to ask of a BN horse and BN rider. IMO There is no way my horse would do it right now. If he jumped the jump he would balk sideways and throw me in the water :lol: And he loves the water. Even will lay down and try to roll in the lake:yes:

[SparklePlenty]

I was looking at the results at Loch Moy.. what does HC Mean????

TIA!

[Tazzie]

I was looking at the results at Loch Moy.. what does HC Mean????

TIA!

Hors Concours

Meaning you are competing and but not being judged or figured in the final results.

[deltawave]

Why all the emphasis on scores, placings and ribbons in the first post if the question was about size and complexity of XC? :confused: If the OP felt she or her horse weren't ready, they could have retired, asked to skip a fence on XC and just run the course as a school, dropped down a level, etc.

For a short course, I think it's fair to ask some questions of complexity. There simply can't be anything "big" on BN by definition, so if the XC portion is 8 fences or so, it's pretty boring to have just 8 logs, coops, and little benches. :)

[technopony]

Tazzie,
I would very much like to compete at the short course and unrecognized events at Loch Moy. However, I have never done so, because I have a pretty green horse and both of us are in the building confidence stage. I have heard, incorrectly or not, that the unrecognized xc at Loch Moy can be maybe a little too challenging. I definitely understand that the course designer is still ironing out the details, but I just can't risk overfacing my horse at the moment. I would LOVE to see Loch Moy begin to consistently have fairly easy, confidence building courses at BN. I go to unrecognized events as prep and confidence building for the recognized, where I expect to be challenged a little more.

Waredaca runs a lovely, EASY and fun unrecognized, obviously designed with the green horse and rider in mind. The jumps are usually not maxed out, and the xc is usually pretty much the same as at the recognized events - maybe a little easier. The thing I trust about Waredaca is that USEA rules for course design will be followed even though its not recognized.

I hope this is helpful - its not meant to be a criticism at all. I just wanted to let you know what I, as a BN competitor with a green horse, look for in an unrecognized event.

[Speedy]

Why all the emphasis on scores, placings and ribbons in the first post if the question was about size and complexity of XC? :confused: If the OP felt she or her horse weren't ready, they could have retired, asked to skip a fence on XC and just run the course as a school, dropped down a level, etc.

For a short course, I think it's fair to ask some questions of complexity. There simply can't be anything "big" on BN by definition, so if the XC portion is 8 fences or so, it's pretty boring to have just 8 logs, coops, and little benches. :)

DW's suggestions are excellent and would have been readily accepted at this particular event.

I do have to agree with the OP, though, as to the water questions on the BN course yesterday (I was there for T, but saw some of the BN). The jumps before the water were NOT jumps "into" the water, but close enough that any green horse, or green rider, would have likely had a problem, due to the perception/sight lines on approach. The complexity of the questions, at both water complexes, were of the N moving up to T, or solid T, variety.

Also, you have to take into account the fact that many people in Area II use the short courses offered at this venue as early season/introductory-to-the-level schooling opportunities. Most of the horses and/or riders are competing at the level for the first time and are not prepared to tackle the most complex questions that may be asked at the level, let alone those at the next level or so up.

I think there were general course design problems though. When I walked the T course, I was a little surprised, because there were a few jumps were very small for the level, and then a few that seemed a little on the, err, larger side. So, for the first time in my life, I went back, asked for the official stick that they'd used to measure the fences, and sticked Fences 4 and 11. I was not disappointed: Fence 4 was a solid INTERMEDIATE fence, and Fence 11 was a solid Preliminary fence. Everyone was VERY PLEASANT when I pointed this out and they did change the fences out right away to something more appropriate. But, it's worth mentioning, because it is illustrative of what things looked like - a few things were off, here and there, at every level.

I'm not sure, but I think they might have a new course designer there.

[technopony]

For a short course, I think it's fair to ask some questions of complexity. There simply can't be anything "big" on BN by definition, so if the XC portion is 8 fences or so, it's pretty boring to have just 8 logs, coops, and little benches. :)

But at BN, we almost WANT it to be boring, right? We want the horses to go out and have a clear round and figure out the whole xc thing without asking tricky questions. For me, height is not why I'm at BN - my horse and I compete at 3' - 3'3'' in jumpers, and have schooled training level xc over individual jumps. But my horse isn't ready for the questions posed at Novice on XC. I would prefer to give her time to figure out xc where all she has to do is go over the jumps without worrying about anything else. If someone is bored at BN, then they should move up to N. I would rather not have them in my division anyway :D

[deltawave]

It's all purely a matter of preference and opinion, of course, re: wanting a course to be more or less challenging. My own preference is for a course to have a little bit of a challenge to it--I want to feel like I'm having to "up my game" just a little when competing. I have more adrenalin, I'm more geared up, and I'm more willing to try things that I would ALWAYS chicken out of schooling unless someone forced me. :D

If my horse isn't ready for something besides log-log-coop-log, IMO he/she is not ready to be showing. Note the IMO part!! MY horse, MY preference. I want MY horse to be ready and able to handle BN, even some decent N stuff, before I go competing at BN. And you bet I expect water at all events. Ditches, too. If I get to a venue and I think the course is beyond my horse, or beyond ME, I'll ask to move down a level, ask to skip a fence that I don't think we're ready for (if the course is otherwise fine) or ask to just come back and school when the show is over. If I think the water is tricky I'll put my horse in the water first before trying the flagged part. This is one reason we walk the course, so there are no surprises and so we can plan OUR RIDE. If we find something we're not ready to jump, it doesn't matter what our dressage score was. :)

[enjoytheride]

I think the comment about XC rides was that so many people were eliminated and perhaps too many for it to be a normal percentage.

Locally I have seen many many BN riders trot or WALK into the water so it looks like a fence 6 or 7 strides away is suitable.

[Catalina]

Okay, dumb question: I was looking at the Short Course results; how on Earth did people get 120 or 140 XC penalties? Am I missing something?

As far as a jump before the water goes, I have seen that at a BN Short Course before at Loch Moy and it didn't cause many problems (IIRC, it was the green bench then a stride or two to the water- the upper water). Maybe it was the placement this time of the jump in relation to the water?

In the future, talk to Carolyn about a jump if you feel uneasy about it :yes:. I have seen her take jumps off course or make them optional or reroute the course because of rider concerns.

[mybelle]

I'm with the BN is for Beginners group. This design was obviously an oversight on the part of the organizers, but, yes, I would have felt overfaced too.

It would have been a long drive for me as well to just not run. Not to mention all of the preparation that goes into showing. So, while, sure, that makes sense, just don't run, I'd say its not as simple as that.

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

Yah that sounds tricky for BN :eek:. I did RH spring event at BN lvl and they had a coop then a non-related distance to water which was flagged but the jump was far back. I think the course sounds tricky for BN, but the rules say nothing about it not being allowed so people should be prepared for the hardest. If you can't jump a scary maxed out course then you aren't ready for that lvl so downgrade or don't show until your ready :yes:

[Kementari]

Yah that sounds tricky for BN :eek:. I did RH spring event at BN lvl and they had a coop then a non-related distance to water which was flagged but the jump was far back. I think the course sounds tricky for BN, but the rules say nothing about it not being allowed so people should be prepared for the hardest. If you can't jump a scary maxed out course then you aren't ready for that lvl so downgrade or don't show until your ready :yes:

Debatable:

APPENDIX 1 - LEVELS OF HORSE TRIALS
1. Beginner Novice—The Beginner Novice level is designed to introduce green horses and riders to Horse Trials, combining dressage, cross-country and Beginner jumping tests. It is designed for competitors and horses that have already had experience schooling competitions in all three disciplines. The entire experience should be safe, inviting and educational to build confidence and a desire to progress. Competitors should be prepared to do a walk, trot and canter dressage test with 20-meter figures and a halt. The cross-country should include a variety of introductory obstacles, including a bank-up, a shallow natural ditch, an inviting water crossing and a brush. Obstacles must have a minimum of two strides between two numbered obstacles. Such combinations of straight forward efforts are the only obstacles composed of several elements that are permitted. The jumping course should be inviting and straightforward and may include one double of two strides.

(Emphasis mine.)

I suppose if you flagged the water exit (and not the entrance), you would have more than one stride between the two numbered obstacles, but that seems to me to go against the spirit of the rule, even if it fits the letter of it...

[quietann]

I agree that sounds like too much for BN. Locally, horse trials both recognized and not often do not introduce water until Novice, usually a run-through or run-through with a log to jump over coming out.

Unrelatedly... even a log can cause trouble! At Green Acres last July, every level except tadpole started with the same plain 2 foot log. You'd come out of the start box, turn left, and the log was about 5 strides away at that point. It was out in the field, no weird shadows, a completely ordinary unspectacular log just sitting there. I was *amazed* at the number of refusals -- little kids on ponies had trouble, adults on big horses did, even my friend's Training Level horse refused it! My (borrowed) guy wasn't bothered by it at all, though there were other things he was bothered by, and I had to steer him away from the ginormous Training Level log at the end of the course because he really-really wanted to jump it. I guess he just likes logs.

Another unrelated question: a recent event used round bales (small ones) for one of the jumps. I know rectangular bales are a no-no because of the binder twine but I guess round bales don't have it. I'd be a little worried about horses stopping to have a snack! Does that ever happen?

[Coppers mom]

It's all purely a matter of preference and opinion, of course, re: wanting a course to be more or less challenging. My own preference is for a course to have a little bit of a challenge to it--I want to feel like I'm having to "up my game" just a little when competing. I have more adrenalin, I'm more geared up, and I'm more willing to try things that I would ALWAYS chicken out of schooling unless someone forced me. :D

If my horse isn't ready for something besides log-log-coop-log, IMO he/she is not ready to be showing. Note the IMO part!! MY horse, MY preference. I want MY horse to be ready and able to handle BN, even some decent N stuff, before I go competing at BN. And you bet I expect water at all events. Ditches, too. If I get to a venue and I think the course is beyond my horse, or beyond ME, I'll ask to move down a level, ask to skip a fence that I don't think we're ready for (if the course is otherwise fine) or ask to just come back and school when the show is over. If I think the water is tricky I'll put my horse in the water first before trying the flagged part. This is one reason we walk the course, so there are no surprises and so we can plan OUR RIDE. If we find something we're not ready to jump, it doesn't matter what our dressage score was. :)
I agree that I don't want log-log-log-log-logloglog on a BN course, but at the same time, it's important to remember what horses are supposed to be at this level.

I wouldn't expect a horse going BN to be terribly experienced, probably young, and still figuring out that everything is not that exciting. I would never ask a brand new to eventing baby to do bending lines like I've seen (Ditch-3 strides-log. Sharp too, not just a little drifting baby bending line), close related distances (2 strides to the water), etc. It just doesn't allow for the little bit of "OMG What is THAT?!" that comes with being at a new place, and really doesn't build up a horses confidence the way they need at the higher levels. At this point, they shouldn't be challenged so much with technicallity the way this rider experienced. At this level, up and down hills, into dark/light, and things like that are challenging enough.

The second paragraph, especially the bit in italics? Where's that bowing smiley?! :yes:

[enjoytheride]

What I like is "good first course of the season" or "course suitable for end of season" so the first spring event in the area is easy and the stadium is mostly 2' 3" with narrow oxers and nothing scary. by the time you get to fall I think having ditches, water, and bright panels is nice because all the green horses and riders have shown all season and are now ready for it.

[Dr. Doolittle]

This has been interesting reading, and I agree do with the posters who say that the "question in question" is a bit daunting (and too hard) for green horses (and green riders.)

Keep in mind that in this *particular* case: A) this is an UNRECOGNIZED competition, so--like any unrecognized competition, there will be a good bit of variation--including some jumps that may be seem a little too easy for the level, and/or some stuff that may be too hard for the level. Just the way it is at unrecognized. B) It's a Short course event, meaning that the course is not an "official BN x-country course" (IOW a course that you would expect to find at a Horse Trial), and C) it is UNTIMED, meaning that anyone who wants to take their time, and poke along at a walk or trot on course (or introduce the water to their greenie *before* actually confronting the flagged question) will not be penalized for this. If *indeed* they are interested in competing for a ribbon, as opposed to schooling--in which case they might want to take their time to introduce something new to the horse, AND/OR might instead opt to scratch, and maybe try to sign up for the cross country schooling afterward instead--which would be another option.

IOW, this particular scenario is not "assessable" by the normal standards with which we judge a x-country course (of any level) at a USEA Recognized HT.

As Tazzie mentioned, Carolyn (who runs Loch Moy) is *enormously* sensitive and responsive to competitors, and tries to bend over backward to accomodate everyone--and to make sure they have the best possible experience. She has built a fantastic facility with a tremendous amount of personal work and committment, and is truly an asset to the eventing community (as is Loch Moy ;)) If anyone has a less than optimal experience there, tell her about it--she will do her best to fix things so as to try to make sure that it doesn't happen again. :yes: I suspect she will listen to any and all complaints, and respond with her usual positive and constructive solutions--the problem will be addressed, and she will "make it right!"

Really, this woman *always* tries to do the right thing by eventers. Good customer service, and good common sense. (Which is why I enter so many of her events, and why I always recommend them to my friends and students ;))

It will be interesting to see what they do with the course at the next one!

[deltawave]

I wouldn't expect a horse going BN to be terribly experienced, probably young, and still figuring out that everything is not that exciting. I would never ask a brand new to eventing baby to do bending lines like I've seen (Ditch-3 strides-log. Sharp too, not just a little drifting baby bending line), close related distances (2 strides to the water), etc.

Point very well taken, but again just in my own opinion why would someone take a totally, totally green, baby horse that's never seen much of anything to a three-phase competition, as opposed to spending that money on 2-3 schooling sessions and maybe a dressage or H/J show thrown in for good measure?

[Coppers mom]

Point very well taken, but again just in my own opinion why would someone take a totally, totally green, baby horse that's never seen much of anything to a three-phase competition, as opposed to spending that money on 2-3 schooling sessions and maybe a dressage or H/J show thrown in for good measure?
Oh, I completely agree. I would never take a completely green horse out on any course, no matter how small. But at the same time, some of the questions being seen aren't what I'd ever expect of a horse who is, in the grand scheme of things, still green.

Edited to clarify:
I'm not saying that water, ditches, or banks are innappropriate for the lower levels. IMO, why bother going if you're plopping around only partially doing XC? Those are the only cross country questions that you can introduce at the walk, and are the basics of basics of XC to me. If your horse can't go through water, you need to go XC schooling, not to a horse show. It's the combinations, the funky water approaches, and other questions that are being introduced at the lower levels that I think are a bit much.

[technopony]

I agree with CoppersMom - I'm currently eventing a green horse. We've finished all 4 recognized HT we've entered, gone clean at the last 3. She has no issues with water, ditches, and most types of fences. But she's still looky enough I'd prefer a rather simple course - a course that you would usually see at BN at a recognized HT, that is within the USEA rules for BN, is fine. She can answer BN questions, and can do N and some T questions in schooling. But its hard to really school without the "dressed up" xc jumps, which you can usually only find at a show. For instance, my horse can easily school over a coop bending line, then a drop into water several strides later - but at the HT, when they put brush on top of the coop and flowers at the base, I'd much rather have just a single coop without the added technicality :)