Jersey Fresh: Nancy Jaffer's wrap-up article

[JER]

This is a must-read and includes audio interviews with CCI*** winner Michael Pollard, CCI** winner Emily Beshear, runner-up Mara Dean and David O'Connor (discussing the Bailey Wick incident).

Postcard: 2009 Jersey Fresh Three Day Event (http://equisearch.com/equiwire_news/nancy_jaffer/jersey_fresh_051009/index.aspx)

[blackwly]

Good lord. What is DOC talking about?

[Carol Ames]

:winkgrin:She certainly crammed a lot of facts into a few words:yes:

[Jealoushe]

that article just seems so....oh well it happens every year and phillip was ok so blah...onto 2010.

[vineyridge]

Do my ears deceive me? Is DOC saying what I think he's saying?

Unless my brain is misinterpreting his interview, he's saying that horse deaths from bad riding are just part of the sport.

So now we have a rider who has been involved in two rotational falls in six months, both from bad riding (witness the videos and photos from PD's fall at Fair Hill), and IT'S OKAY?!!!

[JER]

So now we have a rider who has been involved in two rotational falls in six months, both from bad riding (witness the videos and photos from PD's fall at Fair Hill), and IT'S OKAY?!!!

Yeah, well, you know, it's like a bicycle crash or a motorcycle wreck.

Someone needs to transcribe that interview before it's ordered off the site.

[Carol Ames]

Unless my brain is misinterpreting his interview, he's saying that horse deaths from bad riding are just part of the sport.

So now we have a rider who has been involved in two rotational falls in six months, both from bad riding (witness the videos and photos from PD's fall at Fair Hill), and IT'S OKAY?!!! __________________
"I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."

[vineyridge]

Yeah, well, you know, it's like a bicycle crash or a motorcycle wreck.

Someone needs to transcribe that interview before it's ordered off the site.

Transcribe, HELL! I'm saving the whole thing in our fearless leader's own voice.

[JER]

Transcription time:

Nancy Jaffer: It's really hard to explain when something happens like the horse who died yesterday after USEF has done everything that it possibly can to ensure safety. Do you have any thoughts on that or what you could tell people about the whole situation?

David O'Connor: Well, it's obviously very unfortunate for all of us, and Phillip and the owners. But Phillip admitted he made a mistake right from the beginning, you know, he said it when I was there. And yeah, it's just an unfortunate, I don't know what you could have done about it. It wasn't the fence's fault, it wasn't, you know, it was a nice fence. Sometimes things happen when you're traveling that speed and some little thing goes wrong and I don't really think we'll ever one hundred percent get away from that, like I said, it's like other sports too, like bicycle wrecks or things like motorcycle wrecks. I mean, we can't get to zero in any of those.

Nancy Jaffer: What about deformable fences? Three people came to me yesterday after and said "Oh, if it'd been a crushable fence, maybe the horse would still be alive." What do you think?

David O'Connor: Well, that fence was pinned. It had a frangible pin on it and so, you know, I don't think that necessarily would have made a difference. Like I said, I didn't see the actual fall, so I don't really know. But it was a frangible fence. But do I think technology is coming into play more as we go forward? Yes, I think those are all going to be good things as we go forward. But not every fence is going to be frangible and there's or, you know, deformable and things are still going to happen even with the frangible fence.

[vineyridge]

Thanks, JER. Have I ever mentioned how much I love--well, maybe admire is a better term--you?

[DLee]

Do you all honestly think eventing is going to be death free? Ever? Was it ever?
Don't you think the mission is to reduce deaths as much as possible? Isn't that basically what he said?

I have never, ever heard DOC say a death is "okay".

[vineyridge]

Do you all honestly think eventing is going to be death free? Ever? Was it ever?
Don't you think the mission is to reduce deaths as much as possible? Isn't that basically what he said?

I have never, ever heard DOC say a death is "okay".

"Unfortunate" means "bad luck." Not bad riding or bad decision making. :( If something is due to bad luck, then basically it's unavoidable and thus "okay" in the grand scheme of things. From my perspective it seems that every horse death in eventing is considered unavoidable by TPTB.

[TBCollector]

Do you all honestly think eventing is going to be death free? Ever? Was it ever?
Don't you think the mission is to reduce deaths as much as possible? Isn't that basically what he said?

I have never, ever heard DOC say a death is "okay".

Agree. Horse racing is going through the same issues trying to reduce their own "collateral damage," if you will. Will they completely obliterate it? Of course not, and neither will eventing. EVER. People make mistakes, and on cross-country it takes a fraction of a second to make a mistake that can kill you or your horse. Most of the time, horse saves rider's a$$. Sometimes, he just can't.

Maybe iin Dutton's case, t's a little like it is with high-profile racing trainers...the number of D. Wayne Lukas-trained horses (or Bob Baffert or Nick Zito, pick your poison :eek:) injured seems out of proportion to other trainers, when in fact he is training 10 times more horses than the average trainer. The top trainers typically have full barns (40-50 horses) at two different racetracks. Maybe, because Phillip rides so many, his "ratio" of incidents is simply more likely to he higher than, say, Stephen Bradley's or Becky Holder's?

Another thing...this kind of uproar/second-guessing/call for reform always follows when a high-profile rider (or horse) is injured or killed...I'm frankly not convinced eventing would have made the changes (some controversial) it did had only The Quiet Man been killed at Rolex last year (understand that I am IN NO WAY suggesting one horse's life was more valuable than the other's...but Laine was a long-listed rider on a horse that had been a movie star, and not just a movie star in some little half-baked romantic comedy).

In horse racing, the establishment makes noise about changes (in the case of Barbaro, synthetic tracks were supposed to be the godsent; in the case of Eight Belles, banning steroids) that will stop these sorts of things from happening. Of course, they will continue to happen.

I applaud David O'Connor for saying what, if we all really think about it, is completely true.

[deltawave]

Erudite, he ain't.

[LisaB]

He's absolutely right that it was a rider mistake. And so what else can he say? Should he lie and say like 'the horse got naughty and the horse didn't even jump the fence'? No. He talks time and again about rider responsibility and here he states that it was one of our best rider's fault. I actually applaud him for that and then stating that basically we all make mistakes. The only thing dismaying me is that was the fence pinned only on the back rail? Then he swept that under the rug. Maybe he should have elaborated that they are trying to go forth with new engineering.
I think it's a no win situation for him when he's asked to comment on such a situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[monstrpony]

I still don't think we're anywhere near to knowing what really happened here, but I don't think what DOC said is totally out of line. Right, he's not an elegant speaker--how many of us would be, about that topic? But think of the number of fences PD jumps in competition. How often does he make a mistake? And how many of them have been fatal? It's a total tragedy when it happens, that's a given, but crap does happen.

I'm not denying that there are bigger issues afoot here, and that we are a loooooong way from having a handle on the safety thing. It is a serious problem.

But PD admitted he made a tragic error. He's behaved about as responsibly as he could, balancing the needs of his horses in training and his owners against his ability to deal with his personal feelings about the situation (one could at least consider the position that, given that he made a mistake, and that he admitted he made a mistake, his later rides were possibly safer for it).

What else to the vultures want?? :confused:

[eventinglvr]

Agree. Horse racing is going through the same issues trying to reduce their own "collateral damage," if you will. Will they completely obliterate it? Of course not, and neither will eventing. EVER. People make mistakes, and on cross-country it takes a fraction of a second to make a mistake that can kill you or your horse. Most of the time, horse saves rider's a$$. Sometimes, he just can't.

Maybe iin Dutton's case, t's a little like it is with high-profile racing trainers...the number of D. Wayne Lukas-trained horses (or Bob Baffert or Nick Zito, pick your poison :eek:) injured seems out of proportion to other trainers, when in fact he is training 10 times more horses than the average trainer. The top trainers typically have full barns (40-50 horses) at two different racetracks. Maybe, because Phillip rides so many, his "ratio" of incidents is simply more likely to he higher than, say, Stephen Bradley's or Becky Holder's?

Another thing...this kind of uproar/second-guessing/call for reform always follows when a high-profile rider (or horse) is injured or killed...I'm frankly not convinced eventing would have made the changes (some controversial) it did had only The Quiet Man been killed at Rolex last year (understand that I am IN NO WAY suggesting one horse's life was more valuable than the other's...but Laine was a long-listed rider on a horse that had been a movie star, and not just a movie star in some little half-baked romantic comedy).

In horse racing, the establishment makes noise about changes (in the case of Barbaro, synthetic tracks were supposed to be the godsent; in the case of Eight Belles, banning steroids) that will stop these sorts of things from happening. Of course, they will continue to happen.

I applaud David O'Connor for saying what, if we all really think about it, is completely true.


I completely, absolutely, 100% agree. I could not have said it better.

[saje]

I just did a quick count - in the last 12 months Philip Dutton has had 124 separate rides in rated events, most of those at Intermediate and above.

Becky Holder had 23.

Buck Davidson had 98.


Given that every rider is going to make mistakes (or the horse they are on is) at some point, the odds are stacked against those who ride many many horses in many many events.

Mistakes will happen. We need to find a way to make those mistakes not end up deadly, yet if at all possible not turn eventing into dressage plus 2 stadium courses.

Personally I'm all for a good gallopy course with maybe one or two technical, "how well can you compress and guide your horse" questions. Make those fences that are forgiving and/or collapsible, make the others imposing looking, rider-spooky, but horse friendly. Find a way to bring back at least some of the endurance phase. I'd love to see the full format come back, but I don't know if that's possible anymore :(

What has changed from 10 years ago? Why are jumps that were being safely negotiated now killing horses? Why are there so many catastrophic bleed outs now? These are the questions we need answers to.

[NeverTime]

The fence where PD fell was a beautiful, horse-friendly, non-technical galloping fence, with frangible pins -- a very simple ramped oxer along a flat straightaway. Which just goes to the point that no one of these answers that have been discussed is a silver bullet. A good rider and a good horse can still have an accident at a simple fence. It's a risk sport, and not frangible pins, less technical courses, rider responsibility, etc etc can remove every iota of that risk.

[Jealoushe]

Sorry but there are loads of people in the UK who do a lot more events on a lot more horses then him so if it's merely more accidents because he is competing more than that should hodl true for ALL the people who compete that much on that many horses.

DOC should have said, we are trying everything we can to find a solution as to WHY this keeps happening, riding error or not.

[saje]

Just wanted to add that of those 124 rides there were

9 w/ 20 XC jump penalties (a few of those were T & P horses)

1 w/ 60 penalties

1 Elimination

1 TE

1 RF

5 W


That leaves 106 clear XC rides in 12 months. I find it hard to believe that anyone could charge him with dangerous riding or negligence.

[War Admiral]

that article just seems so....oh well it happens every year and phillip was ok so blah...onto 2010.

Yep.

[saje]

Sorry but there are loads of people in the UK who do a lot more events on a lot more horses then him so if it's merely more accidents because he is competing more than that should hodl true for ALL the people who compete that much on that many horses.

DOC should have said, we are trying everything we can to find a solution as to WHY this keeps happening, riding error or not.

Yes, but they are competing over UK courses, and those are not the source of *our* horse and rider tragedies. Nor are they governed by the USEF/USEA.

[Carol Ames]

Do you all honestly think eventing is going to be death free? Ever? Was it ever?:no:

[War Admiral]

No, but there were a LOT LESS of them in the 1970s, as I'm sure Denny will attest. And they were HEADLINE news, not just swept under the rug the way this one seems to be.

Do you all honestly think eventing is going to be death free? Ever? Was it ever?

[Carol Ames]

Had there been any other problems/ near :eek:misses? at that jump? Was it an error in course design? jump construction?Unfortunately you could build a jump with some sort of high impact system which would "bounce " the horse off and it would still not be incapable of causing a fatal fall; :no:

[centeur]

No, but there were a LOT LESS of them in the 1970s, as I'm sure Denny will attest. And they were HEADLINE news, not just swept under the rug the way this one seems to be.

Yes, and isn't it just pure coincidence that everything was long format then. Not the glorified show jumping course that XC has turned out to be.

Just an opinion........

[Divine Comedy]

Has anyone ever figured out if the horses who have died due to rider error and not to natural causes have EVER completed a long format? I realize that the LF is never coming back....however, even though these riders may have experience at the LF, what if the horses who died never completed a LF? Haven't some of you said that a LF really teaches a horse to jump out of stride? Maybe if some of these horses had done a CCI* LF back when they were running Prelim, they would have the necessary tools to get out of a bad situation at the Advanced level. If USEA made it a requirement for a horse to do a CCI* LF before a CIC**, not only would that maybe prevent the horse deaths at the top level, but it would also drastically increase attendance at the long formats, and maybe the number of venues would increase as well.

Just a theory though, for all I know all of these horses ran long formats at some point.

[Carol Ames]

no one of these answers that have been discussed is a silver bullet. A good rider and a good horse can still have an accident at a simple fence. It's a risk sport, and not frangible pins, less technical courses, rider responsibility, etc etc can remove every iota of that risk.

[Carol Ames]

he admitted he made a mistake, his later rides were possibly safer for it).

What else to the vultures want?? :confused:just EXACTLY WHAT MISTAKE DID HE MAKE?

[MintHillFarm]

Sadly, to me this reads as glossed over, keeping the tragedy in the blurred backgound article...the whole tone seemed very odd to me.

[Jumphigh83]

Well they changed to break away cups in the GP for safety reasons and those jumps WILL fall down fairly easily if the horse/rider get in trouble...so why do that? TO save LIVES. I disagree with the theory that safety improvements will NOT help the horses. They will.

[caffeinated]

What else to the vultures want?? :confused:just EXACTLY WHAT MISTAKE DID HE MAKE?

That once, out of thousands upon thousands of rides, he missed.

I've been prone to armchair quarterbacking in some situations, but PD is one of the most amazing and accurate riders I've ever seen, in ANY discipline. All I am left with is a great feeling of emptiness and a little fear, that if this can happen to even him... (don't really have to finish that sentence...)

[Jumphigh83]

So Carol, then PV made a "mistake" having horses KILLED of insurance $? A horse has to DIE before changes can be made?? Well at least 13 have died (or more) in this calendar year...And they can run 105 rounds through a ring at a horse show in several HOURS (not a YEAR) and have NOT ONE fatality, breakdown or disaster! WAKE up eventers before you lose your sport! Just saying.....so go ahead and call me a troll BUT you would be better served by heeding the advice of someone who is not so blind that they cannot see! ZZZZZZZZZiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiipppppppppppppppp~

[findeight]

PD is a fine horseman and it is the horseman who blames themsleves, not the horse. That much is refreshing compared to some past statements by others coming off dead horses.

It may have just been an accident but you still have the dead horse, as you do at almost every big name event in this country.

Fail to see the appeal to spectate and certainly would never bring young children to an Event any more then to the race track and for the same reason.

Horse fatalities were never tracked until recently so there cannot be a comparison between long and short format statistics...having been around a long time, I recall quite a few events where all did not return to the barn. Even as a casual observer it has always been hard to ignore.

Seems to be getting worse at this top level where all should know what they are doing and all precautions taken on top of fewer competing at that level.

[Trixie]

I've been prone to armchair quarterbacking in some situations, but PD is one of the most amazing and accurate riders I've ever seen, in ANY discipline. All I am left with is a great feeling of emptiness and a little fear, that if this can happen to even him... (don't really have to finish that sentence...)

I'm thinking along the same lines. If THE BEST in a sport are getting killed when they miss - horse or rider - ON A CONSISTENT BASIS - then there's something that is not right.

It's obvious we'll never ELIMINATE the risk, but the risk does need to be mitigated, because the present numbers are WAY too high. It's unacceptable.

What else to the vultures want?? just EXACTLY WHAT MISTAKE DID HE MAKE?

The "vultures" want to see changes to the sport so it's safer, so that deaths stop happening practically once per event.

[Jealoushe]

I would say in a past decade that PDs fall would have been seen as just one of those things that unfortunately happened, rider error or not. However, sadly this is really really bad timing for one of those errors and it has to be included in the overall picture for safety of our sport.

So yes, it was an error and maybe a rare one for him, but why should rider error = death? (Also, 2 RF in 6 months does not seem rare for me, maybe his skill is declining?) I'm not going to get into that, I doubt it is but 2 mistakes that severe and now a horse is dead. So ya, he admits it's his fault and maybe it is a one off for him, but that does not mean it shouldn't be considered when we are trying to find a safer sport.

[NeverTime]

Yes, and isn't it just pure coincidence that everything was long format then. Not the glorified show jumping course that XC has turned out to be.

Just an opinion........


Two questions:
1. There are more deaths now than there were in the 1970s. How many more people and horses are competing now? I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'd like to know how they compare, apples to apples.

2. Please explain how Jersey Fresh was a "glorified show jumping course." How did this play into PD's fall?

[denny]

Eventing takes horses and riders too close to the edge. Most of the time they deal/get away with it, whatever, but the stakes are too high when they don`t.

If Tiger Woods misses a critical putt, he doesn`t end up in the hospital or the morgue.

If Beezie misses with Authentic, the rail comes down.

If Stefan and Ravel blow a change, they get a 3, not a quick trip to the hospital.

Eventing, like a few other very high risk sports, has the constant potential for lethal consequences for a mistake.

I don`t think this sport will survive much longer if it constantly kills its athletes.

And Phillip has won USEA Rider of the Year, what, 10 times? He`s the best we`ve got. If HE can flip twice in a 6 month period, that should be proof enough for even the stupidest eeventing apologist that we`re too close to the edge.

[JER]

Fail to see the appeal to spectate and certainly would never bring young children to an Event any more then to the race track and for the same reason.


This is such an important point.

As the USEA has pushed for major sponsorships and to increase the appeal of eventing to the general public, the fact that a marquee event has a good chance of showcasing the death of a horse is something that needs to be addressed.

How, in good conscience, do you bring young children to spectate at a UL event? Do you take your chances and hope you'll be at fence 25 when the accident happens at fence 11? How do you explain to a young child that this is just part of the sport and we just drag the body off the course and carry on with our 'sport'?

[findeight]

Eventing takes horses and riders too close to the edge. Most of the time they deal/get away with it, whatever, but the stakes are too high when they don`t.

If Tiger Woods misses a critical putt, he doesn`t end up in the hospital or the morgue.

If Beezie misses with Authentic, the rail comes down.

If Stefan and Ravel blow a change, they get a 3, not a quick trip to the hospital.

Eventing, like a few other very high risk sports, has the constant potential for lethal consequences for a mistake.

I don`t think this sport will survive much longer if it constantly kills its athletes.

And Phillip has won USEA Rider of the Year, what, 10 times? He`s the best we`ve got. If HE can flip twice in a 6 month period, that should be proof enough for even the stupidest eeventing apologist that we`re too close to the edge.

Thank you, denny. Your niche in our sport has some wonderful, dedicated horsemen. Hope you can figure it out.

Not so sure it is not we who watch and follow these things that have done the most changing.

Back when it was a cavalry based sport indentifying cannon fodder, then eveolved into a more accessible sport and it was a shrug and "well, it's a dangerous sport" or "it happens" remarks at debacles like the Mexico City Olympics. These days we simply do not accept dead animals as entertainment or simply part of the sport as a society.

Has the sport changed or have we?

[magnolia73]

Has the sport changed or have we?


For certain, we have. I think as a society, we have FAR LESS stomach for seeing animals injured in the name of entertainment. Good lord, I know friends who felt bad for the showjumpers at the Bobcat Cup "the poor horses- struggling and pulling rails!". I can. not. imagine. what this man would do if his daughters were at Jersey Fresh and he saw a horse slam into a fence and die.

What was it- the last death back in April- a list of some 22 horses killed in a few years while XC jumping at a high level. Not to mention all the riders injured and horses limping off with career ending injuries.

:no: And these are excellent riders and horsemen. They are NOT incompetent hacks. And they are not able to protect their partners. It is heartbreaking. This sport is run to satisfy humans. Can it just be made a bit more fair to the poor horse who doesn't understand the risk? In other sports, the horses may suffer due to greed and a lack of caring- but the actual sports do not cause them harm except for rare accidents. It is so sad that in this sport, where the care is so wonderful, that the sport causes the harm. And just a small sliver of the sport.

[Alpha Mare]

I agree with Denny. When this is happening at the highest level of the sport, by the most experienced rider, we need to look at the sport. When Darren took his fall I had the same thought and now for PD I feel it more strongly.

I have watched some nasty tumbles by others and rationalized that the rider may not have been up to the level, but for Olympic team members ??? can't say that.

And I agree with the others who suggest that as a spectator sport, it is really hard to see the horses fall at all, and immensely worse for them to die.

Other high risk sports like downhill skiing, continue to make safety improvements for the sake of their competitors and eventing should do the same.

Much as I hold PD in high regard for his skills 2 RF's in 6 months suggests to me he needs to back off his schedule. Said as a railbird wishing him well.

[Twomanydawgs]

Judging by more than a few of the pics snapped at Jersey Fresh I would say more than just PD need to back off...wayyyyyyyyyy off:eek:

[pinkdiamondracing]

Eventing takes horses and riders too close to the edge. Most of the time they deal/get away with it, whatever, but the stakes are too high when they don`t.

If Tiger Woods misses a critical putt, he doesn`t end up in the hospital or the morgue.

If Beezie misses with Authentic, the rail comes down.

If Stefan and Ravel blow a change, they get a 3, not a quick trip to the hospital.

Eventing, like a few other very high risk sports, has the constant potential for lethal consequences for a mistake.

I don`t think this sport will survive much longer if it constantly kills its athletes.

And Phillip has won USEA Rider of the Year, what, 10 times? He`s the best we`ve got. If HE can flip twice in a 6 month period, that should be proof enough for even the stupidest eeventing apologist that we`re too close to the edge.

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:
Wholehearted agreement with Denny on this--if PD is haing accidents what does this hold for the future???

[SGray]

Do my ears deceive me? Is DOC saying what I think he's saying?

Unless my brain is misinterpreting his interview, he's saying that horse deaths from bad riding are just part of the sport.

So now we have a rider who has been involved in two rotational falls in six months, both from bad riding (witness the videos and photos from PD's fall at Fair Hill), and IT'S OKAY?!!!

I posit that the folks of the High Performance Division would be very upset if PD was set down for any length of time

[Candle]

The fence where PD fell was a beautiful, horse-friendly, non-technical galloping fence, with frangible pins -- a very simple ramped oxer along a flat straightaway. Which just goes to the point that no one of these answers that have been discussed is a silver bullet. A good rider and a good horse can still have an accident at a simple fence. It's a risk sport, and not frangible pins, less technical courses, rider responsibility, etc etc can remove every iota of that risk.

But which horses still know how to jump those 'easy galloping' fences easily?