How Do You Buy a Race Horse?

[imissvixen]

I know -- claiming races, auctions, breeder, etc. What I mean is, how do you decide who you want to buy? Remember me? I am the Miss Abby Kat lady. I am sorry sometimes that I didn't buy her. The bloodstock agent said that they were pleased with the price...

[DickHertz]

It depends on your budget

[Laurierace]

The place to start is to find a trainer you trust and then ask for their assistance in choosing a horse that fits into your budget.

[Las Olas]

It depends on your level of experience, but for a newcomer, I agree with Laurierace. It also depends on what you are looking for. Do you want something started and ready to race? The first horse I raced (as an adult, my parents raced when I was a kid), was a $10/15k claimer in KY. I had been out of the sport completely and newly married (to a non horse person). I think the good advice we got was to claim a horse that was competitive at the level it was running at, and see how much enjoyment it gave us. We weren't comfortable with the claiming process yet, so we bought a filly privately for $10k. Ran her at TP and she finished 4 or 5th. Decided to run her a few weeks later at KD she won and was claimed. It was great! We actually made about $5k on the whole deal and were hooked.

[imissvixen]

What does a trainer do? I have dealt with hunter trainers and eventing trainers. What do racehorse trainers do?

Btw, my budget is 4 to 5 figure here. I am more interested in it as a horse thing to do. I am having ankle surgery next week and continue to question whether I am going to have a future riding career. Oh and my horse had a serious colic episode, surgery, etc.

[Laurierace]

Race horse trainers do everything. Meaning the owners send a check and smile for the picture. We decide what to feed the horse, what shoes to put on, what supplements to give them, how far they gallop on a given day etc. You need to budget $2k per month for training fees and vet bills and such.

[justalittlex]

imissvixen, just an aside here. My much loved jumper passed on last year from complications of a snake bite.
Horses have been such a huge part of my life.
Since then I've gotten so involved with racing, first to get over my loss, now as an overwhelming passion. Really makes you forget what you aren't doing anymore. (jumping.) Best of luck buying a race horse!

[Las Olas]

As Laurierace said, the trainer pretty much makes all of the daily decisions in regards to the horse. You won't be involved in any of the husbandry apects of it's care. That is why it is very important that you choose a trainer that you trust and you are on the same page. Ask your questions up front. I know some trainers that give Gastroguard daily to all of their horses in the barn. So, when you are told a day rate of, say $75, also ask what other things are added on and what to expect for an average vet bill. I was speaking with a friend the other day whose trainer charges a workman's comp fee every month. It's nice to know up front, so you aren't PO'd when the first bill arrives.

[Linny]

In racing trainers are entirely the people calling the shots. Owners hire the best trainers they can and let them decide, or at leastthey should. Trainers decide everything from feed to shoes to what races to enter. Most trainers act as a duly designated agent for the owner in that they enter and scratch a horse, choose it's food and jockeys and exercise riders etc.
In racing, most owners are hands off. It's not like h/j where they owner says "I want to decide what feed he gets" etc.

There are several ways to get into the game. You can but throught the claim box, after hiring the trainer to sign the claim slip. You can buy a horse at auction at any age from weanling on up. You can try a partnership, though there are many pitfalls there too.
I'd advise one of 2 routes if you want to get involved quicky, meaning you don't want to buy a baby and watch it grow for a year or two before racing. First, find someone who is involved and see if they might "cut you in" on one or two of their next purchases. Overpay them for their trouble. (Meaning if they are buying a $20K horse and you want in for 10% pay them more than 2k for the trouble of a partner.) The other option is to find a trainer and decide on what you want and go buy the whole thing. The "decision" must include options like "what if the horse we claim is very sore or lame?" and "are we looking at fillies with possible breeding value?" and "what if he's claimed away immediately?"
If you are not willing to view a horse as a commodity, don't hire a trainer who sees them all as such, its a bad mix. Get alot of advice on trainers. It is the biggest decision you make as an owner.

[Acertainsmile]

I think the toughest part of a trainers job is to keep the owner realistic about their horse, and to keep them away from a condition book! :)

Just remember that the purchace price is usually the cheapest part of owning a racehorse... they all cost the same once they are in the barn!

[JHUshoer20]

You might want to look into the racing stable partnership concept first as a way to get your feet wet.

There are many different deals you can get into which may or may not suit your needs and budget.

Speak to a reputable Bloodstock Agent about it.
George

[holmes]

I also think that getting into a partnership is the best way to learn - there are a lot of smiling tigers in racing and the experience they provide will allow you to navigate around them.

A couple good ones are www.Bongoracing.com and www.Westpointtb.com

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Signature: please help me out.

I am getting married in July and am trying to win a new living room set to give to my bride as a wedding present (I was recently laid off so buying one if out of the question for the time being). If you could please vote for me I would appreciate it.

Please go to - http://www.lovesac.com/room_planner_contest.asp and vote for me (Iain Holmes I am right at the top).

[JHUshoer20]

One more thing I think you should know is that most people who get involved in racing lose money at it. Only about 10% of racehorses make any money to support themselves.

Let me repeat that MOST PEOPLE WHO GET INVOLVED IN RACING LOSE MONEY!!!!!

Having said that I'll also say that most of your expenses are legitimate tax deductions which you can be advised on. This does soften it somewhat but please if you can't afford to play do yourself and everybody else a big favor and stay out of it
George

[LaurieB]

I also think looking into a partnership is a good idea. If you look here: www.bloodhorse.com in the column on the right hand side about half way down the page, you'll see a list of links to about a dozen different racing partnerships.

[Acertainsmile]

I also think that getting into a partnership is the best way to learn - there are a lot of smiling tigers in racing and the experience they provide will allow you to navigate around them.

A couple good ones are www.Bongoracing.com and www.Westpointtb.com

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Signature: please help me out.

I am getting married in July and am trying to win a new living room set to give to my bride as a wedding present (I was recently laid off so buying one if out of the question for the time being). If you could please vote for me I would appreciate it.

Please go to - http://www.lovesac.com/room_planner_contest.asp and vote for me (Iain Holmes I am right at the top).

Gawd, totally get your screename now... any relation?

Okay, my minds out of the gutter for now....

[holmes]

Uncle John - though we called him shorty!

[Laurierace]

OMG.

[holmes]

She asked.......

[Laurierace]

Well I shouldn't say this because I really don't want you to show me that I am wrong but generally people who run off at the mouth tend to do that to overcome their weaknesses. But whatever floats your boat, I just think its gross and tasteless.

[holmes]

Laurie - when I created my username I sort something brash that I expected to use just once after seeing a post I was not particularly impressed with - that is how the username came about. I since came to enjoy the forum and have thought of changing my username as I can see why some think it tasteless, but the immature part of me still finds it amusing.

For the record - John is not my uncle.

[Mara]

I am not sure exactly how it works, and I'm sure there are plenty of people here who can explain, but I believe you have to get licensed as an owner in order to race.

[Laurierace]

True, you do need an owner's license but that is about step #87. There is a lot that needs to be done way before you get to that point.

[DickHertz]

A new owner is eligible for an Open Claiming License at most any jurisdictions as a way to get new owners in the game. Find a trainer first and you shoudl consider one with less than 20 horses or you'll just get lost in the shuffle of a big outfit. Your horse may do OK in a big outfit, but you might not learn the necessary things along the way and be left in the dark on a lot of things. Also, the worst thing you can do is find an eager trainer who wants to train for you and drop the claim slip on the first living breathing horse with four legs w/out really checking the horse out. I've seen this several times. Ask the trainer about their stall situation and be vocal that you want them to claim the best horse possible and that you are willing to be patient in the claim process even if it takes a couple of months. For your price range, you may be waiting a while to claim one because many are unsound and have issues that are more pronounced than higher-level claming horses. Don't get me wrong, all horses have issues, even those running this Saturday at Pimlico, but the ones on the bottom are often near the end of their rope in terms of dealing with problems. Others, can run and be productive on the bottom for several years. You have to try and claim the best one. Also, don't think that because you claim a "young one" that you'll get one who is sound. Most young horses get some sort of issue early on. last year I claimed 2 3 year olds, one had chips in both knees, the other had suspensory problems in both hind legs !!!

[imissvixen]

Whoa... just saw that this thread got some action. I am not used to that. I will start reading!

[Laurierace]

Don't get too excited, a big chunk of it pertains to the size of a poster's manhood or lackthereof. Not exactly one of our better threads.

[imissvixen]

Okay, I read again. Too old to be interested in big dongs by the way...

I have to think about whether I would be willing to abdicate that much control to a trainer. That initial comment stopped me dead in my tracks. I am interested in being more hands on.

[Laurierace]

Find a different hobby then, or get a job as a hot walker and work yourself up to a groom and see if the trainer will let one of the horses you groom be your own horse. No trainer worth having is going to let an owner be hands on.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . I have to think about whether I would be willing to abdicate that much control to a trainer. That initial comment stopped me dead in my tracks. I am interested in being more hands on.

I can tell you from personal observation that most trainers do not welcome too much owner involvement. I know one gentleman who got his trainer's license & started training his own because he wanted to be involved & didn't find trainers welcomed it.

I can also see the trainer's side - even a "small" trainer is very, very busy & standing around talking to an owner is not high on the priority list during a day that may extend over 15 - 18 hours seven days a week.

[Laurierace]

Its not only the busy part but we got to be trainers by studying and working under other trainers and the like. We found a system that works for us. We can not teach every aspect of that system to the owners right off the bat and have them implement it effectively. And we certainly don't want an owner coming in and changing our system either.
I have always been very owner friendly as far as explaining why I am doing what I am doing and answering any questions they may have as I feel they have a right to know. That doesn't mean I want them in the stall doing it for me.

[Linny]

Training/owning racehorses is a serious professional sports venture. The guy that owns the baseball team is not coaching third base. Owners hire coaches/trainers and the best athletes they can, and work to build a team. In racing, owners do the same. They invest in the best stock they can, hire a trainer with a good staff and program and let them do their job. Yes the owner has final say, he pays the bills, but race trainers have far to much on their plate for alot of hand holding and after having developed a system, for which the owner (supposedly) hired them, they don't care to change things.
As much as I love horses and love being a hands on horseperson in my hobby riding environment, I would never dare (if I owned racehorses) to try and tell the trainer what to do. In fact, I know several very knowledgeable professional horsement (hands on) that hire trainers to make decisions.
If you want to be hands on you have to get a trainers license and you are free to do it all.

[DickHertz]

Okay, I read again. Too old to be interested in big dongs by the way...

I have to think about whether I would be willing to abdicate that much control to a trainer. That initial comment stopped me dead in my tracks. I am interested in being more hands on.

You'd need to let go. Do you think an orthopedic surgeon who needed a heart transplant would instruct the cardiologist on how to do the operation? In all honesty, from my experience the people who know a lot about horses in other disciplines know almost nothing about what it takes to race horses effectively.

[holmes]

In my time working at the track we only had one owner who ever inquired about training and he was notorious for it.

[imissvixen]

So, there are no owner/trainers? What about the guy who owns General Quarters? And I think I read in that terrific book about Suffolk Downs that there was a female Harvard MD who is also an owner/trainer.

[Acertainsmile]

So, there are no owner/trainers? What about the guy who owns General Quarters? And I think I read in that terrific book about Suffolk Downs that there was a female Harvard MD who is also an owner/trainer.

Sure, there are plenty of successful and not so successful owners/trainers. Coming from either side, (owner to trainer or vice versa) the one thing that makes success is knowledge about the horse, and the sport.

Personally, I have seen owners who gain a little knowledge (enough to pass the trainer test), and then usually flounder around with a horse or two. Trainers that have come up through the ranks usually own a horse or two (or more) and have the experience to know how to train, and how to pick races that their horses will be competitive in.

My advice to someone that wants to own and be hands on, is to go to the track daily, and work for a trainer. Either become a trainer themselves or find someone that you are extremely compatible with, and try and form a partnership. Usually it doesnt work out though, most trainers have the horses best interest at heart, and will only see a profit if the horse is running and winning. For an owner to step in, and be unrealistic (maybe not on purpose, just from lack of knowledge) will really hinder the trainers abiltiy to earn a living.

[EponaRoan]

So, there are no owner/trainers? What about the guy who owns General Quarters? And I think I read in that terrific book about Suffolk Downs that there was a female Harvard MD who is also an owner/trainer.

Sure. I know some. Generally at the lower levels though. It takes a LOT of time and most people have another job to support their horse racing hobby/habit, so it just depends on your level of energy and self-motivation.

[Laurierace]

So, there are no owner/trainers? What about the guy who owns General Quarters? And I think I read in that terrific book about Suffolk Downs that there was a female Harvard MD who is also an owner/trainer.

No one ever said you couldn't get your trainers license and train your own horses. We just said that no good trainer is going to let an owner be hands on. Huge difference because it would be your ass on the line, not anyone elses.

[selah]

I searched the threads to see if this has been posted before...and didn't find it. I thought it was a good illustration of what not to do;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwXVYzTk1Xw

[Summerwood]

I searched the threads to see if this has been posted before...and didn't find it. I thought it was a good illustration of what not to do;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwXVYzTk1Xw

:lol::D:lol:

[hastyrebeljane]

OMG, I just had the best laugh I've had all week!

[Arcadien]

So, there are no owner/trainers? What about the guy who owns General Quarters? And I think I read in that terrific book about Suffolk Downs that there was a female Harvard MD who is also an owner/trainer.

Sounds like you would enjoy "Backyard Racehorse" book & online group to me - the book has had multiple editions, and the author, Janet DelCastillo, is doing live updates of her latest efforts with two horses on Facebook and/or Twitter...

You don't hear as much about the owner/trainers as they race less often, and naturally have a much smaller (sometimes one!) string. But it might be up your alley if you want to be more involved then sending a check and smiling in the win photo lol.

There are actually more of owner/trainers than you'd think, just do a browse on any local entry race form in your area. They don't get the big press, but they occasionally win or hit the board- just like showing only sometimes a check appears, whoa baby! lol

These owner/trainers usually have another main source of income outside of racing, but then so do the owners that send the checks and thats it...

PM if you want more info!
Good luck
Arcadien

[Arcadien]

Janet is winning at a awesome 0.019% since 1990. She definetely sounds like someone you'd want to buy a book and learn from. :no:

Point taken on her stats, but lets not forget, how many small owners actually make any money racing horses?

Especially if they are paying an average day rate. I think you have to realize, there are some people (very small percentage of course) in this game knowing they are going to spend money, not make it. They were spending it anyway on owning a few horses, maybe have their own farms and are even good enough riders to get a horse to the work & go, gate card point.

Up to then they spend no more than they would on your average show hunter. Why shouldn't they be allowed instead to spend that money as owner/trainer of a racehorse?

The only disadvantage I see is these owners aren't providing any full time trainers with day rate income.

OP, check out Janet's list, and you'll find a small loyal group, mostly just having fun preparing their own "race horses", but occasionally winning the owner trainer way!

Just another point of view,
Respectfully,
Arcadien

[Pronzini]

Point taken on her stats, but lets not forget, how many small owners actually make any money racing horses?


I very much understand that and as a small owner, I have to take every edge to maximize the success that I do have. That means hiring professionals that not only know how to train but how to recognize small problems before they become big problems, how to spot their horses and how to read a condition book. Everyone has slumps and bad luck but I'm not sure how a small owner can survive in a barn that can't win somewhere in the double digits over time.

The successful owner trainers I know or know about are either small guys who are "all in" or bigger operations where typically the trainer takes a piece of a horse with long time partners. Bruce Headley and Jerry Hollendorfer are in the latter category. The small guys often live in a tack room and have 4 or 5 head who make it happen for them. That's a life that has certain rewards but not for everyone. Talk about living by your wits....

I've never read that book but I question the premise as to how anyone could do a good job in the "backyard" unless their backyard is Calumet. Racing is a sport that requires a high degree of fitness and a very specialized set of skills for both human and horse. On the human end, those skills can take a long time to acquire and coming from a pethorse/showhorse perspective, I was stunned at how much more work and time quality racing operations devote to their horses than some of their counterparts in the show world. Every inch of every horse gets gone over every day--and that's your competition. In my experience, gyp trainers love to talk about the "juice" some other barn is using but the truth is that some barns are just better than other barns and horses move up because they get better care and are managed by smarter, savvier people. An amateur owner trainer is very much competing against pros and even at the smaller tracks (and maybe especially at the smaller tracks) these guys don't leave money on the table.

Obviously I am not trying to kill someone's dream but being an owner trainer is not an easy lifestyle.

[Arcadien]

I very much understand that and as a small owner, I have to take every edge to maximize the success that I do have. That means hiring professionals Obviously I am not trying to kill someone's dream but being an owner trainer is not an easy lifestyle.

You made a lot of very valid points that resonate with me, personally. That said,

I think the point being missed (possibly, not saying by you specifically) is that owing/training racehorses is not necessarily a "lifestyle" for some of us. It's still a "hobby" if you will, same as owning/training a show horse (which, in some situations, mind, can get as costly as - or more costly than (LOL!) - owning/training a racehorse)

So why shut those people out? I mean, if you have a much better way of playing the racing game, these people are just more entries to fill a race & beat, right?

Just piping up (again, please forgive me, uninterested regulars <grin>) as I don't see why the small (okay unrealistic) dreamer owner/trainer is any threat to your success - actually, seems to me they could a benefit, helping to fill races, so....??? the objection?

(other than the rather unpalatable one I sort of suggested - that these people might otherwise be paying racehorse trainers day rates... )

Respectfully,
Arcadien

[Florida Fan]

All of us who trained racehorses in Fla. at the time of Janet were amazed at her writing a book.....or why. I felt bad for the horses.
Finding yourself a good trainer who is training a successful stable at the racetrack, has a long history of consistent success is a big plus. There are "flash in the pan" trainers who get a good run of luck, but do not have long term experience. My advice is to choose a trainer who has years of training success.

[SleepyFox]

Imissvixen, sorry to come late to the discussion. I remember the Miss Abby Kat thread and am thrilled that you're interested in pursuing racehorse ownership.

From what you've said, I suggest either claiming or privately purchasing a horse in training. That way, you'll have immediate enjoyment - you'll have a fit horse that is ready to run and is a known quantity talent-wise. You could also buy a young horse and bring it along, but you will wind up investing considerable time and money in a horse that may or may not even make it to the races - due to injury and/or lack of talent. And, I suspect the partnership route may not be hands-on enough for you.

There are some drawbacks to claiming - one being that you could claim a horse with serious issues and the other being that if it's a good horse and you run it where it belongs, it may be claimed away from you. But, any horse can get hurt and if a horse is claimed you can always claim him back or buy him back.

If you want to claim, find a trainer at the track where you want to run who claims a decent number of horses and, ideally, is stabled at the track. You want someone who knows the horses and the various barns. Talk to a few trainers and be upfront about what you expect and choose the trainer that you feel you have the best potential to have a good working relationship with. Stats and trainer standings are one thing, but you want to have a good experience and have fun - find the person with whom you can do that. You would think a big barn would be less personal, but it really depends on the individual who runs the barn - what you probably want more than anything is a trainer who will be appreciative of a one-horse newbie owner (and you'll be able to tell that fairly quickly).

How hands-on can you be? Again, it depends on the stable. You can expect to be able to be kept in the loop as far as your horse's wellbeing and training is concerned. Weekly updates from your trainer is standard. You should be able to visit as often as you like to watch training, play with your horse and - depending on your horse, your skill level and the stable - maybe groom, hotwalk, hand graze, etc. your horse. If you stay out of the way and don't interfere with training and barn chores, you should be welcomed.

One phrase you hear a lot at the track is "there is nothing more dangerous than an owner with a condition book." In other words, let the trainer do his/her job and pick the races. You do, as an owner, have final say in what race in which to run your horse, but it's best to leave those decisions to the trainer.

What you should not expect to be able to do is dictate how your horse is conditioned and/or cared for on a daily baisis. If a significant issue comes up, of course you can talk to the trainer, but as far as the little nitpicky things that you see people complain about at riding horse stables - forget about it.

Owner/trainers come in all shapes and sizes and the idea that they are all small-timers struggling along is absurd. But, I don't suggest trying to train your own when you have no experience - you'd be facing a serious uphill battle.

The Backyard Racehorse group might be a good idea to gain some exposure to the world of racing, but the Backyard philosophy is more about not using medication than about how to train on a small scale. Factor in what Dahoss and Florida Fan say before taking those philosphies to your trainer and asking them to implement any of those methods. ;)

If I were you, I would contact some claiming trainers at the track where I wanted to race and tell them I wanted a horse to have some fun with and go from there.

[EponaRoan]

One phrase you hear a lot at the track is "there is nothing more dangerous than an owner with a condition book." In other words, let the trainer do his/her job and pick the races. You do, as an owner, have final say in what race in which to run your horse, but it's best to leave those decisions to the trainer.

The whole condition book/entry aspect of racing was a real eye opener for me when I became an owner. It's just not as easy as it looked from the fan perspective. :lol::lol:

[jengersnap]

Hubby often hands me the condition books and tells me to circle the races I think ours should aim for. I'm sad to say after all these years I still end up picking out filly races for our geldings, or missing a condition we don't meet and so on and so forth. I did catch him the other day when the new book came out and he was going through a day and picked out a fillies and mares for our stallion :D

As for the original question, can I pose a counter question? How do you stop?!? We just bought another lol

[Pat Ness]

I agree with Sleepy Fox. I have 2 horses with our trainer right now. She has 38 horses in training - so it is a fairly good size stable. Our trainer is Excellent. The two trainers before her were very mediocre and I felt I could have done a better job. Now with this trainer, I am years away from getting to her level. Our grooms are Excellent. They answer questions and help me learn, but really, I could never do it as good as they are. It is a very nice feeling.

I love the hotwalking and they are happy to let me do that. I go out to the track at lunch to graze them. Then when the race is over, they let me help out by hotwalking and telling the horses how great they were. If we are lucky enough to go to the test barn, I get to do that part as well. So far it is enough to keep me quite happy.

There is nothing like the backside at 5:30 AM - WAY more satisfying and fascinating then the races - But - we need the races to try to afford the day rate!

I am not sure how long we will stay with racing. I have not given up on hoping to show H/J again - just working on getting one of these OTTBs ready for it.

Pat Ness