Small rant about competitors!

[elizabeth Callahan]

So Plantation had to cancel this weekend b/c of the footing. The grounds are NOT owned by the event and they were torn up badly in April and with the 8 or so inches of rain we have had since, they were too deep to use - much less be safe to gallop on. Who wants to bow a tendon ?
It's a shame, but it happens and we as competitors have to accept the fact that the sport would not exist without the generosity of land owners and the hard work of the organizers. Plantation is trying to to see if they can give some sort of refund IF expenses are met. This is despite the fact that it says in the Omnibus that there will be NO refund. Right there. In black and white.
And those of you who have competed at Plantation, and before that, Menfelt and before that, at Fair Hill with FHEE know that Denis has put on events before, during and after hurricanes ( literally), so he does not cancel on a whim. It really has to be extrordinarily bad for that event to be canceled. It is the first time in 24 years that he has done so.
So, several people have called after the cancellation , threatening to sue ( can you believe it?) b/c they lost their entry fee and 1 person called the organizers a cheat/ liar , saying even though she had begged to get her horses in last week at the last minute, she knows now that they were planning to cancel anyway, so the event owes her her money back.
What the hell are these people thinking? Whatever happened to sportsmanship and/or reading the rules with your entry, or better yet, thinking about the sport's future at this venue.
So, if you hear any of these people complaining, please politely inform them that they should maybe take up another sport, perhaps something indoors . AAGH!

[3dazey]

Welcome to the behind-the-scenes reality that a few really stinking apples ruin everything for the whole bunch.

People like that need to have their darn USEA memberships revoked and sent on their merry way to wreak havoc elsewhere. Idiots!

It is generally easy to tell who is going to behave like this...the last-minute, please-I'm-begging-let-me-in, high maintenance, massive special request entry that is a pain in the butt from start to finish. People, act human or find anther planet to live on.

***Rant over.***

[bornfreenowexpensive]

boy that is stinky. I live in the area....and the grounds were really saturated. No way would the footing have been suitable for an event on Saturday. If the event was tomorrow.....it might be perfect footing. But that is the risk of weather. I know that Denis wouldn't have canceled without reason....and saw them setting things in the rain and getting ready even as late as the day before it was canceled. And they canceled early enough to keep people from traveling.

To me...that is really nice. Twice, I've gotten up at 3 am to braid and drive down to an event only to get there and have it be canceled. But that is a risk with outdoor sports were a great deal of expense is put out before the event is even run.

[enjoytheride]

I thought there was a rule that said you got your money back if an event cancelled, is that not the case?

I would understand the footing concerns but I would enjoy having my money back to compete another day and I would be more likely to go back to that event in the future. Just my opinion.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I thought there was a rule that said you got your money back if an event cancelled, is that not the case?




Nope...no such rule nor has there ever been. You can get back your entry...minus an office fee...if you cancel before the closing date. But if the event cancels for weather reasons like this....there is NO right to refund. And that is also clearly stated in the omnibus for most events.

Speaking from someone who has lost a few entries. Most events will try and get you back something. One event gave us schooling vouchers. Unfortunately, Plantation can't do that as the land isn't available for schooling (again, the organizer of the event doesn't own the land).

[One Star]

Well that frosts my cookies. :mad: What a freaking bunch of babies. Bruce is right, if you don't like it, just shut up instead of flapping your gums.

I have been at Plantation after a tornado when Bambi and Denis ran the entire event off of their car battery because Unionville was without power that weekend. We all took it in stride, grateful that the Glaccums were so dedicated to the sport that if it was within their power, they were going to make that event happen.

So if they cancelled, it was not a decision made lightly, believe me.

[enjoytheride]

Telling competitors to shut up doesn't make them keen on coming back.

What if the show offered to transfer the entries to the next show at that location?

[3dazey]

See, enjoy, what you're expressing here is a lack of understanding of 1) the rules (read the omnibus listing, too) and 2) how much darn outlay of cash an organizer has to make before the first horse enters at A. In business, it would be called operating at a loss and I don't know too many organizers who can afford to pay out those expenses and also refund/reimburse entry fees in full in the unfortunate occurrence of competition cancellation for whatever reason.

The kind of stuff elizabeth c. is talking about is also one of the very reasons that events "go away". Organizers throw up their hands in the face of outrageous ingratitude and yes, well, ignorance and decide to just enjoy the rest of their lives free of the hassle.

[SevenDogs]

I thought there was a rule that said you got your money back if an event cancelled, is that not the case?

I would understand the footing concerns but I would enjoy having my money back to compete another day and I would be more likely to go back to that event in the future. Just my opinion.

Enjoytheride: There have been many other threads about this that I would encourage you to search. There is NOT a rule that states you get your money back if an event is cancelled -- quite the opposite! When you look at the Omnibus listing for an event, it usually very clearly states it's refund policy and, in most cases (including this show) its states "Competition Cancellation - None". This is very clear and very intentional that there will be no refund of your entry fee in the case of weather.

Here is why: An Organizer almost always operates on a shoestring. The idea of recognized shows being big money makers does not generally play out. An Organizer must arrange and pay UPFRONT for all of the services for the competion: Judges, Officials, Course Designers, Course Builders, Stabling Rentals (if needed), Porta Potties (if needed), EMT's, Veterinarians, etc., etc., etc. These costs are already incurred long before the actual show starts.

If the Organizers were forced to eat all of these costs when weather forces a cancellation, there would be NO more Organizers and NO more shows. It has been a long standing policy of almost every show for the 20 years that I have been showing, that the risk must be absorbed by the competitor. Although, no one is happy to lose several hundred dollars from an entry, think about how an Organizer would feel to lose thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars. They would be out of business very quickly and there would be no more shows.

Each Competitor must understand (by the printed policy in the omnibus) that when they drop their entry into the mailbox, they are assuming the risk that they may not get to run in the case of inclement weather. As stated above, Organizer agonize over this sort of thing. Some even try to give entry money back when they can (even though they are not obligated to). Personally, I have never accepted a refund because I believe so strongly in supporting the Organizers and their events.

I would encourage you to walk a mile in an Organizer's shoes and find out how shows actually work from a monetary standpoint. Without that perspective, it is difficult to understand losing an entry fee. In case you are wondering, I am not an Organizer, nor am I connected with any Organizers. I am too scared of the giant risks involved, which are only overshadowed by the tremendous hours and hard, hard work involved. I will gladly pay my entry fees, risk the occasional loss of said fees, and thank the Organizers for being willing to undertake the job that I am not willing to do myself.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Telling competitors to shut up doesn't make them keen on coming back.

What if the show offered to transfer the entries to the next show at that location?


Again....the costs are already spent. A lot of the work and expense for an event is done before the event. These events are not turning much of a profit....so the organizer needs the entry fees from the next event to pay the costs for that event. He would not be able to absorb everyone at this event at a future event.

Again...this is a risk of events. If you event long enough.....you will lose your entry fee occasionally from event cancelations...you will also lose it when your horse comes up lame or pulls a shoe right before the event. Events do not cancel often but it does happen.

[enjoytheride]

I understand the point you are making about costs to the facility that are already lost.

Here is where I am coming from, even though you can't give these riders their money back perhaps the show should take the high road and not complain about the riders on a public BB where they might see or tell them to shut up or quit whining. Perhaps a polite explanation of why they can't get their money back via a phone call or an email and an explanation of why the course was closed and the expenses behind an event would sooth some hurt feelings and make them feel better about taking the chance again to compete at a nice facility. That way even if they lost their money once they would still want to try again at the next show with an understanding of why events cancel and why they lost their money.

Several of my local events offer a schooling pass or to funnel the money into the next clinic or horse show which is why I asked.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I understand the point you are trying to make.

Here is where I am coming from, even though you can't give these riders their money back perhaps the show should take the high road and not complain about the riders on a public BB where they might see. Perhaps a polite explanation of why they can't get their money back via a phone call or an email would sooth some hurt feelings and make them feel better about taking the chance again to compete at a nice facility.

Several of my local events offer a schooling pass or to funnel the money into the next clinic or horse show which is why I asked.


The show wasn't complaining. A fellow competitor who has now heard how others are hassling the organizer was complaining...and the rest of us...who are also competitors are validating her intial rant. And rightly so....because this isn't something that competitors should be complaining about...especially this particular organizer.

And as I mentioned early...this venue has no schooling...and only offers a limited number of HTs per year and are limited as to how many they can offer. This is open land where the course is built....not a farm with facilities. Only thing that runs on this land are the horse trials, fox hunt rides through, and a point to point. This is not an equestrian facility. What you are asking is for this organizer to bear the brunt of the loss of this event.....and that is not something I agree with.

Bottom line....no competitor should complain about losing their entry if the event is canceled because of weather.

[One Star]

I understand the point you are making about costs to the facility that are already lost.

Here is where I am coming from, even though you can't give these riders their money back perhaps the show should take the high road and not complain about the riders on a public BB where they might see or tell them to shut up or quit whining. Perhaps a polite explanation of why they can't get their money back via a phone call or an email and an explanation of why the course was closed and the expenses behind an event would sooth some hurt feelings and make them feel better about taking the chance again to compete at a nice facility.

Several of my local events offer a schooling pass or to funnel the money into the next clinic or horse show which is why I asked.

I am not part of the show organization for Plantation Hill and Fair Hill International. My comments are mine; I'm not acting as a mouthpiece for Bambi and Denis, who to the best of my knowledge, have not posted on this thread to "complain about riders on a public BB." :cool:

[SevenDogs]

For those of us competitors who realize how fragile these events are, and how easily they are lost, it is very frustrating for fellow competitors to harrass, badger, and threaten to sue Organizers over policies that are well established and well publicized. When we hear of a few fellow competitor behaving so badly, we feel the need to speak out -- not only to defend the Organizers, but also to assure them that for every "bad apple" out there, there are many, many more who are appreciative of their efforts.

Enjoytheride: In your case, I think it was more of a need to show you why refunds are not possible. I have had this conversation with many fellow riders and parents -- sometimes it is just a matter of educating them. I literally tell them that I consider the money flushed down the toilet as soon as I mail my entry. If I am lucky (and the weather cooperates, and my horse stays sound, and I stay healthy, and the stars align, etc.), I might just get to show. Honestly, it works out in a remarkably high percentage of cases.

Unfortunately, some people are just not reasonable and I think that is the frustration that is being shown by the OP.

[enjoytheride]

I've never experienced an event being cancelled and many of the entry forms I get state you can get a schooling pass or show another day. I've shown at some local hunter shows and if the show gets cancelled you just pack up and leave or stay home.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything but try to make nice (even if it is just an explanation email). There isn't any reason to tell people to take up another sport. Explain the rules, apologize for the inconvenience, and invite them back the next time. If they mention suing tell them to have their lawyer contact your lawyer which will probably never happen.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I'm not asking anyone to do anything but try to make nice (even if it is just an explanation email). There isn't any reason to tell people to take up another sport. Explain the rules, apologize for the inconvenience, and invite them back the next time. If they mention suing tell them to have their lawyer contact your lawyer which will probably never happen.


It was....a very nice email was sent out to the competitors when the event was canceled. And even though the organizers have NO obligations to refund anything...they said they would do their best to get competitors a partial refund.

I'm sure that they explained things to those that complained. The point of the OP and the rest of us....is that people shouldn't complain to begin with. And that is why the rant. If more competitors actually read the omnibus before they sent off their entry.....or took the time to volunteer and understand the organizer's shoes....they wouldn't be complaining.

These are not hunter shows....I've helped organized both. HORSE TRIALs....have a lot more fixed costs that are paid whether or not the event runs that regular horse shows do not have.

And I will organize a hunter/jumper show any day...those are EASY. But you couldn't pay me to organize a Horse Trial ever again....I'll happily pay someone else for that royal pain in the a$$.

[riderboy]

I've never experienced an event being cancelled and many of the entry forms I get state you can get a schooling pass or show another day. I've shown at some local hunter shows and if the show gets cancelled you just pack up and leave or stay home.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything but try to make nice (even if it is just an explanation email). There isn't any reason to tell people to take up another sport. Explain the rules, apologize for the inconvenience, and invite them back the next time. If they mention suing tell them to have their lawyer contact your lawyer which will probably never happen.

Quit digging.

[BarbB]

I'm sorry people are being rude to you. I think I would probably hang up on them and avoid the heartburn.
People who threaten to sue over an entry fee are high maintenance customers. If they will talk about suing over that....what would they do if they got a booboo at an event?
While I am all about customer service...sometimes you are better off without particular customers. And they would be better off at an activity where there are no variables.

Now have a nice glass of wine and take the phone off the hook.

[Blugal]

BarbB, if I were an organizer, those competitors (esp. as you remarked those who threaten to sue over an entry fee) would be viewed by me as a liability, and any future entries by them might just get "lost in the mail"...

[elizabeth Callahan]

Enjoythe ride
To make things clear. I AM NOT the organizer and i post under my real name, so you all will know exactly who I am . - The organizers have no idea that I posted, and this is strictly my own opinion - but I still thinks it sucks that competitors can be so self-centered
And yes, I might be oldfashioned, but I think people should read the rules ( all of them) before they enter.

[lcw579]

Blugal, that is exactly what I was thinking! "I'm so sorry, we didn't seem to recieve your entry. Darn email glitch (mail service whatever). Add you now? But we're past the closing date and rules are rules. So sorry." :winkgrin:

[takeone4theteam]

Well that frosts my cookies. :mad: What a freaking bunch of babies. Bruce is right, if you don't like it, just shut up instead of flapping your gums.

I have been at Plantation after a tornado when Bambi and Denis ran the entire event off of their car battery because Unionville was without power that weekend. We all took it in stride, grateful that the Glaccums were so dedicated to the sport that if it was within their power, they were going to make that event happen.

So if they cancelled, it was not a decision made lightly, believe me.

I was at that event too. They put in a great effort to make things happen. That was a crazy weekend. We didn't have water at our place. We had it trucked in. No bathing for the show that weekend!

[Snapdragon]

Enjoytheride, it's never been the case that you get your entry fee back if the event cancels. I can't think of one horse trial that does that. I've entered several HTs over the years that canceled due to weather. I can't imagine someone wanting to sue for, give or take, $150. Who wants to run their horse on slick, deep mud?

If you event, it's just one of the costs of competing in this sport. I've been to events where I wished they canceled! You might grumble a bit, but it is what it is.

[enjoytheride]

What was the deal with Red Hills and entry funds? That seems to be where I am confused. I've only shown unrecognized which is where I run into the refund or schooling pass.

[SevenDogs]

What was the deal with Red Hills and entry funds? That seems to be where I am confused. I've only shown unrecognized which is where I run into the refund or schooling pass.

I think you may be remembering the thread from when Red Hills was cancelled due to lack of entries (not weather). There was a large discussion about cancelling for that reason and whether or not refunds were appropriate in this circumstance, even though the Omnibus clearly stated that there were no refunds for ANY competition cancellation.

If I am remembering correctly (someone tell me if I am not), refunds were made in that instance. I think that was mainly due to goodwill on the part of the Organizers and the fact that they cancelled fairly far in advance and were able to avoid contracting for at least some portion of the costs. I suspect (but don't know) that they looked at the number of entries that had at a fairly early juncture and decided that they were not going to be able to cover costs and decided to cancel prior to deadlines for some of the expenditures.

I would guess that the Organizers still lost a significant amount of money.

[SevenDogs]

Ah, that was it! That explains it.

:)

The moral of this thread -- be nice to the Organizers... they are our friends and the backbone of this sport!

[retreadeventer]

Well, that's too bad, but you know, that's our rules and how our sport runs. I am shocked people were rude to Bambi and Denis. That makes me very mad. The footing is wonderful up there when it's good but when it's really soggy it's very dangerous. But..it does not surprise me. Such is the culture in that town! (Enjoytheride, Unionville is like...Desperate Housewives on steroids....)
I am just cautious about entering events in spring and fall when rain can ruin footing. You can't predict, but I am just careful in the rainy times of the year because I can't afford to lose my entry very often.

[kcrubin]

Hey thanks alot - nobody said the assholes that complained were from Unionville thank you very much!

[Gry2Yng]

Telling competitors to shut up doesn't make them keen on coming back.

What if the show offered to transfer the entries to the next show at that location?

If they need to be told to shut up, you probably don't want them back. Competitors need to show organizers and land owners a little more gratitude.

FWIW, the last minute entrant is always the biggest PITA. Once their drama enters your life it just keeps going and going and going.

[Erin Pittman]

Steuart is reading over my shoulder and says, "Yay DD!"

[retreadeventer]

Hey thanks alot - nobody said the assholes that complained were from Unionville thank you very much!

You don't apply! You're from Kennett! :) This is true. They could have been from Delaware. That too is typical of our behavior down here in Dela-where?.

[LisaB]

Don't take the bait, Elizabeth. Enjoy's got her knickers in a twist. I think here and also there have been numerous articles written on the expense of a HT and also what the organizer has to go through. Heck, remember when we always kept getting rained out one year? There was an exact verbatim article on the subject of getting rained out and why we don't get our money back. And they were seriously considering like an insurance policy type of deal if the weather kept up the next year.
Plantation doesn't owe us a thing. We owe them our thanks and gratitude. Period.

[Dune]

I don't agree with the competitors getting nasty and, if that's a written rule, well so be it. HOWever, I have to say that I do agree with etr :uhoh:on this one, and I wouldn't be happy about it. Instead of getting irate with someone after the fact, though, I just wouldn't have entered an event that had a chance of being canceled with no rain date or refund. :no:

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Instead of getting irate with someone after the fact, though, I just wouldn't have entered an event that had a chance of being canceled with no rain date or refund. :no:


Then you would be SOL for just about all the events in Area II (if not all of them)--take a good look at the omnibus listings and you will see what I mean (http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=calendar) I wouldn't be surprised if it is true for most events here in the US.

NO refund for event cancelation is the standard for just about every event that I've ever entered.....and no one controls the weather so it is always a possibility.

[Ja Da Dee]

I don't agree with the competitors getting nasty and, if that's a written rule, well so be it. HOWever, I have to say that I do agree with etr :uhoh:on this one, and I wouldn't be happy about it. Instead of getting irate with someone after the fact, though, I just wouldn't have entered an event that had a chance of being canceled with no rain date or refund. :no:

So, I assume you don't event?

[Jumphigh83]

It is too bad they had to cancel but I am not sure that it is ethical to keep money for services not received. (let alone legal?) I will be following this with interest to see what comes of it.

[Dune]

Then you would be SOL for just about all the events in Area II (if not all of them)--take a good look at the omnibus listings and you will see what I mean (http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=calendar) I wouldn't be surprised if it is true for most events here in the US.

NO refund for event cancelation is the standard for just about every event that I've ever entered.....and no one controls the weather so it is always a possibility.

WE have "rain dates" out my way, I assumed everyone else did too. :confused: Guess I've just been educated on the way things work elsewhere in the country.

So, I assume you don't event?

WEll, with event cancellations, doesn't sound like you do. :winkgrin:

[bornfreenowexpensive]

WE have "rain dates" out my way, I assumed everyone else did too. :confused: Guess I've just been educated on the way things work elsewhere in the country.




Nope...most events out here do not have rain dates. I've known a few that have tried to hold the events on other dates but it has rarely worked well. One of the advantages about living in an Area II or III is that our calendars are VERY full (and for many of us in the mid atlantic area--where Plantation HT is located--getting to Areas I and VIII also is not out of shot for some events).

It isn't unusual to have to chose between two events running the same weekend or back to back weekends within two hours of one another......so changing to another date isn't always possible because it would conflict with other events often in the same area. In addition, some locations, like the venue in question, are only allowed to run a certain number of events each year. So they have no rain date available even if one could fit on the calendar. Poor us;)...and why folks who have been eventing in this area for a long time don't bitch about the rare event cancelation!

[Blugal]

It is too bad they had to cancel but I am not sure that it is ethical to keep money for services not received. (let alone legal?) I will be following this with interest to see what comes of it.

The service consists of:
-owning or leasing land
-preparing ground
-hiring a course designer, fence builders, and building the jumps
-building and painting the show jumps
-accepting entries and all the secretarial work that goes with it
-hiring the officials
-building or hiring stabling
-renting tents, port-a-potties, radios etc., usually non-refundable deposits.

All of those things occur whether or not the event runs. Your event entry is actually a "chance to event" - probably a 95% chance, given that there are usually procedures in place for substitutions/refunds/credits if you or your horse is lame.

When you signed the entry blank, you entered into a contract that clearly stated "no refunds for event cancellation". So yes, it is legal, and if you don't think it's ethical, I invite you to try running an event sometime.

[NMK]

Well, I applaud them for making a difficult call on behalf of the safety of the sport and welfare of the horses.

[riderboy]

Well, I applaud them for making a difficult call on behalf of the safety of the sport and welfare of the horses.

Exactly! Thank you.

[Ajierene]

The service consists of:
-owning or leasing land
-preparing ground
-hiring a course designer, fence builders, and building the jumps
-building and painting the show jumps
-accepting entries and all the secretarial work that goes with it
-hiring the officials
-building or hiring stabling
-renting tents, port-a-potties, radios etc., usually non-refundable deposits.

All of those things occur whether or not the event runs. Your event entry is actually a "chance to event" - probably a 95% chance, given that there are usually procedures in place for substitutions/refunds/credits if you or your horse is lame.

When you signed the entry blank, you entered into a contract that clearly stated "no refunds for event cancellation". So yes, it is legal, and if you don't think it's ethical, I invite you to try running an event sometime.

While I understand what everyone is saying about the rules - and rules are rules, if I had an entered an event that had cancelled, I would not ask for money back - coming from the retail world, I can completely see how people think they should get their money back.

Retail experience:
1-rule: no refunds without receipt (store credit only).

customer complains, gets refund in cash or on bank card.

2 - rule: outdoor installations are subject to weather.

Door install with two sidelights (door cost over $5,000, install cost over $5,000) gets canceled due to weather, installer working on new date. Customer calls, lies, complains. Installer loses the install (installers are contractors so they have their own business and only get paid when they work - more than one installer per service to be able to get all installs done in a reasonable time). Company refunds customer $5,000 (keep in mind door cost to store is about $3,000 and install cost to store is about $4,000, so store loses big, financially).

3 - store closes at 8pm on Fourth of July

Customers come in at 801pm and complain about store hours because they "want to get grill parts and last minute items whenever they want - don't the store managers know that they want to have a nice barbeque with the family and see the fireworks? How dare they close the store early and possibly prevent such activities!" (because all the employees working don't want to grill with the family and see fireworks? They prefer cater to prima donna customers?) Result, store open until regular closing time next year (10pm-to late for fireworks and no extra money to employees working instead of enjoying barbeque and fireworks).

So, yeah....this is coming from the 'Unionville area' (Store located in Northern Delaware, so I am talking a 3 hour radius of Unionville). People in this area seem to have a high sense of entitlement.

[LAZ]

We had a very similar discussion on this forum about this very subject (refunds due to acts of god or lack of entries) back when Red Hills canceled. People who don't get the amount of financial and time outlay for horse trials should try to put one on, risk financial hardship or ruin, and see if they want to be obligated to give refunds.

I bet not.

I also will remember (not not particularly kindly) those competitors that rag on any organizer. What goes around comes around....

I will reiterate that I have NEVER in 29 years of doing this felt like an organizer was less than honest or helpful with me. However, I firmly believe the competitor has to be willing to give up the occasional entry due to acts of God or circumstances beyond the organizers control.

[curlykarot]

The service consists of:
-owning or leasing land
-preparing ground
-hiring a course designer, fence builders, and building the jumps
-building and painting the show jumps
-accepting entries and all the secretarial work that goes with it
-hiring the officials
-building or hiring stabling
-renting tents, port-a-potties, radios etc., usually non-refundable deposits.

All of those things occur whether or not the event runs. Your event entry is actually a "chance to event" - probably a 95% chance, given that there are usually procedures in place for substitutions/refunds/credits if you or your horse is lame.

When you signed the entry blank, you entered into a contract that clearly stated "no refunds for event cancellation". So yes, it is legal, and if you don't think it's ethical, I invite you to try running an event sometime.

I just wanted to add - all the things on the list that Blugal wrote (plus all the other million little details that go into even an unrecognized HT) - most of this has been started before the event even opens for entries. All your contractors (course designers, jump builders, port a pots, etc, etc) have to be paid whether or not the event runs. The people that are there mowing, cleaning and general upkeep of the property need to be paid. A lot of this comes from the entry fees.

Always thank your organizer for all the tireless work they do.

[JFS]

As an organizer who ran an event last weekend and even accepted an 'very late' (Fri afternoon phone call) from someone who was entered at Plantation; I want to thank those of you who are showing support for the organizers. I judged for Dennis the year there was the hurricane and I remember sitting in the car all day waiting for a few brave souls to ride their tests. They rescheduled the xc for the next day when the conditions were better and riders essentially went straight from show jumping to cross country. So if there had been a safe way to run the event, Denis and Bambi would have done it.

Believe me, from one who is procrastinating about cleaning up and putting everything away today, 95% of the WORK & money is spent before a competitor steps on the grounds! The actual running of the event is easy by comparison to the preparation. If we do our job on the preparation end of things we actually are able to watch some cross country and enjoy the fruits of our labor :) The fact that my son did well at his first Training level event on a new horse was icing on the cake :)

The fact that my other son popped off in stadium as his horse slipped and almost went down going around a turn in stadium in slippery conditions & the new rules says that it will counts against him and his status to continue at the Preliminary level when it had absolutely nothing to do with jumping or safety on cross country :( ... well that's an entirely different topic :)

Jackie
www.stonegatefarm.org

[Janet]

WE have "rain dates" out my way, I assumed everyone else did too. :confused: Guess I've just been educated on the way things work elsewhere in the country.
USEF rules do not provide for "rain dates". If you want to reschedule, you have to go through the Area Council as if it were a new event. In Area II, it would be very unusual to be able to find a new weekend that did not conflict with another event.

Believe me, I've "been there, done that".

[Janet]

I don't agree with the competitors getting nasty and, if that's a written rule, well so be it. HOWever, I have to say that I do agree with etr :uhoh:on this one, and I wouldn't be happy about it. Instead of getting irate with someone after the fact, though, I just wouldn't have entered an event that had a chance of being canceled with no rain date or refund. :no:
I was not aware that RECOGNIZED events with a guaranteed refund, or a "rain date" existed. Certainly not in Area II. Maybe in some other area- can you point me to one?

Most events, even though they SAY "no refund" will TRY to give a partial refund, or credit for a future event, if they possibly can.

[Janet]

It is too bad they had to cancel but I am not sure that it is ethical to keep money for services not received. (let alone legal?) I will be following this with interest to see what comes of it.
Suggest you read rule EV120.

[SevenDogs]

It is too bad they had to cancel but I am not sure that it is ethical to keep money for services not received. (let alone legal?) I will be following this with interest to see what comes of it.

Jumphigh83, it appears that you mainly post in the H/J forum so, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not an eventer and, therefore, not familiar with the rules. Regardless, to call Organizers unethical for following the published rules is inexcusable.

[colliemom]

I keep composing replies in my head to certain posts, only to keep scrolling and finding that bfne, retread, janet, and others have already made the points I was going to make!

enjoytheride, there is a HUGE difference between unrecognized events probably run either on private equestrian farms or facilities or public venues, and RECOGNIZED events run on open land (read: no stabling, no facilities, nothing that is not trucked in and set up JUST for that event) due to the kindness of landowners and subject to the rules of the Federation.

I highly recommend that you (and anyone who wants to learn more about what goes on behind the scenes to allow the competitors the privelege to compete) volunteer to help an organizer of a recognized event to see all the hard work, sweat and tears that go into each and every event before a single entry is even received, and way before the first horse trots down the center line. It would make most normal people exhausted at the very thought.

Remember, competing is not a right, it's a privelege.

[bambam]

Remember, competing is not a right, it's a privelege.
I think this bears repeating :)
There is nothing unethical or improper about keeping entry fees based on a clearly stated policy and the rules governing the sport. It is not like there is profit involved in holding a horse trial and that the organizers cancelled on a whim and are sitting back at their farm counting all the money they made off of the cancellation :lol:.
In the instances where I have been entered and there has been a weather cancellation of either or both days, I have always been impressed at the lengths the organizers will go to if they can to give partial refunds or permit people to compete on the 2nd day or hold xc schooling days or whatever- but in those instances I am grateful because I know that I am not entitled to any of it and they have gone far above and beyond what they are required to do and that this is simply another facet of their generosity of giving to the sport (since I think organizing an HT to begin with is giving to the sport as it is a thankless and mindbogglingly difficult undertaking). But if the organizer does not give a non-required refund, then I give them the benefit of the doubt that they cannot because, frankly, they have earned that benefit of the doubt.

[Finn'sMom]

I'm fairly new to eventing, but I look at my entries this way: I paid $X either way. If the weather is good, the footing is good, and I get to go out, wonderful! If the weather is horrible and the footing is horrible enough to have to cancel the event, I don't want to ride and endanger myself and my horse anyway. I understand that most of that money has already been spent by the organizers. So it's a bit of a crapshoot, but I certainly don't expect a refund. I even scratched once due to the weather (and what I thought was tough footing for my green self) when they continued on with the event - I surely didn't expect a refund then, either.

If the event is in a position to offer something like a schooling in return, great, but I wouldn't expect it.

We need to look at the big picture and hope that long term there will still be event organizers willing to do this thankless job!!!

[Mach Two]

If I were somewhere ready to run, and the weather and footing had deteriorated, I would take a different look at how I was going to run xc, and then adjust accordingly, and if things did not look good for my horse, I'd withdraw....and not expect a thing. And if I were home and had a sudden lameness, I'd withdraw, and would call to let the organizer know I was pulling out, so that if there were awaiting list, they could let someone else in...but when an organizer who knows eventing inside out cancels an event, it is for very good reason, and they have spent the money already.
Rain dates? I never knew of recognized events having rain dates when I was eventing....maybe schooling shows, but not events that needed recognized dressage judges, a TD, a course designer, a vet on call...that stuff requires planning and money...good judges and good TDs are in demand...not available next weekend in case of rain.

I applaud the organizers for doing the right thing...and I'm sorry to hear some folks do not know how to read. Maybe someone read those folks the Omnibus, and helped them fill out their entries...perhaps there needs to be an IQ test and reading comprehension test before they are allowed to enter a recognized event.:winkgrin:

[Catalina]

I have entered a couple of events that have cancelled. Did it suck that I was out the money. Yes. But, if I had gone and gotten E in dressage (been there, done that), I would still be out the money. If I had gone and jumped two XC fences and gone off course, I still would have been out the money. Stuff happens and it is not worth getting sue happy over a cancellation. Spring and Fall eventing in Area II is bound to be hampered by rain; it's a fact of life. Sheesh.

[colliemom]

Stuff happens and it is not worth getting sue happy over a cancellation.

You know, I've been thinking a lot these last few days reading all the various threads going on about the future of eventing... and have concluded that the sport is in the fix it's in in large part due to the "sue-happy" nature of our society. The AHSA/USET debacle was because of lawsuits. That left us with the USEF trying to do everything for everyone when it really just wanted to deal with the High Performance people (the USET side) and not have to worry about the Smurfs (the AHSA side) The knee-jerk reaction rules that we have now -- with all their unintended consequences -- are due in large part to the fear of being sued. Course designers are afraid of being sued if someone falls off and gets hurt on their course. Public riding parks are afraid of being sued if someone rides without help, and tries to jump a ditch, and ends up in it. So the leaders of all these organizations go into protectionist mode and things go downhill fast.

I dunno, I'm rambing a bit and getting off topic, but why can't people understand that this desire / need / additiction to "sue someone" ends up destroying things in the long run. And for what? Their own personal gain?

It's just insane. :(

[mybelle]

This would be such a different thread if the organizers had chosen to run it and then, God forbid, someone had gotten hurt. People just love to complain, I suppose.

We accept that horses are expensive and an endless blackhole of $$ when you buy that first horse. That's just how it is, but we love them and everything to do with them regardless.

Big thanks to everyone who keeps events going. You bring happiness to all of our lives! (I volunteer and that's hard enough!)

[AiryFairy]

Telling competitors to shut up doesn't make them keen on coming back.

What if the show offered to transfer the entries to the next show at that location?

Threatening (stupidly) to sue the organizer probably will make your entry fall to the bottom of the pile next time, or get lost completely - and who could blame them. The organizers have to cover expenses, period, and some of that is spent whether there is an event or not. Shit happens, weather happens, DEAL WITH IT.

What is it with the selfishness and sense of entitlement with people these days? I'm willing to bet not one of these petulant brats ever volunteered at an event in their lives. They all could use a trip to the woodshed and some manners imprinted on their heads, anyone else in?

[sam1979]

I have several posts but not all- so sorry if this is a repeat. I believe what a lot of people fail to understand with regard to canceling a phase or event is that it takes months of hard work to organize. The volunteers, judges, EMTs, vets, etc all have to be hired weeks to months ahead of time and PAID. They aren't going to refund their money. Rescheduling for the next weekend or 'forwarding" the entry to the next event doesn't work for the same reason. We need to remember the true nature of our beloved sport. We should thank the organizers who care enough about our safety to cancel a phase, not give them a hard time. Remember they have spent just as many hours behind the scenes as the riders have getting ready. They too are disappointed to see all their hard work go down the drain. You don't hear them complaining and asking for a refund on all the hours of work they "lost" .I think we should encourage others to remember this if we hear grumbles---- in most cases ( as in most aspects of life) it comes from those who truly don't understand.:eek:

[Dune]

, it would be very unusual to be able to find a new weekend that did not conflict with another event.

".

Perhaps that's the difference, then, because we just don't have that many events here. :no:

I was not aware that RECOGNIZED events with a guaranteed refund, or a "rain date" existed. Certainly not in Area II. Maybe in some other area- can you point me to one?

Most events, even though they SAY "no refund" will TRY to give a partial refund, or credit for a future event, if they possibly can.


In my area, we rarely get rain, so that's probably part of it too, credit for a future event is much more palatable. :yes:

[scubed]

I haven't read everything, but several people have made the points that I would (Janet, BFNE, etc). Let me just say that Denis is a consummate horseman, and incredibly dedicated to the sport of eventing. It isn't just the money that is already spent, it is the hours of labor (that Denis will never get reimbursed for). And with an event getting run on someone else's land, if that footing gets too destroyed, they might consider yanking the entire series (not so much in this case as they are event supporters too), but people whining about this need to realize that weather happens. Note that airlines won't pay your hotel if flight is cancelled for weather, so it isn't as if eventing is the only venue that this happens. In future, check the weather report as carefully as you can the day before closing and if you are concerned, withdraw then (which will usually get you a refund minus office fee - though they are allowed not if the spot/event doesn't fill: read the omnibus entry for that event). Then if the event does run, come out and volunteer (you had the day blocked anyway!)

[nextyear]

[QUOTE=Dune;4089436]Perhaps that's the difference, then, because we just don't have that many events here. :no:

What area are you in ? I have gone through the omnibus from Ca. to Maine and cannot find any events that have a "rain date" majority are no refund


How do you book your officials and judges? It is not that easy for there to be no conflicts.
If we did that at all the events even the food venders would want to quit doing events.

[Camstock]

I'm willing to bet not one of these petulant brats ever volunteered at an event in their lives. They all could use a trip to the woodshed and some manners imprinted on their heads, anyone else in?

Meeeeee! I'm so in.

(By the way, excellent and appropriate use of the word "petulant". Huzzah.)

[asterix]

I have often thought there should be a REQUIREMENT to volunteer in order to compete recognized. For everyone. In Area II, we all can name the (few) pros who volunteer (and I understand, it's hard to volunteer a day when that is a major part of your income stream...but some do come and volunteer their expertise at the T3d we run, or organize an HT, which would also count :D). Most do not, and many are quite rude to our volunteers on a regular basis.

I promise you that if you have never volunteered, and you do it for a day, you will have a new respect for the work and energy of the organizers. When I volunteer, I usually head home totally exhausted (plus hot or freezing or wet or dehydrated). The organizers get back up and do it again the next day, in addition to the WEEKS of prep (I board at a farm that runs HTs -- they are in full prep now for an HT in 3 weeks. Full. As in full time.) and the days of clean up/recovery.

Just try something. Next time you compete, try thanking HALF the volunteers who made your day possible. It's hard. Try walking your course in the pouring rain and thanking the jump judges who sit there all day under tarps to make your 5 minutes of fun possible.

I am sure any farm that runs an HT makes more money off of regular lessons, horses in for training, etc., than the HT itself.