Sad loss at Jersey Fresh

[Eventer6]

Philip Dutton's 'Bailey Wick' broke it's neck on xc today. Very sad. I don't know more than that but I believe Philip is ok.

[KMErickson]

:no::no::no:I just saw the Chronicle Twitter update and though they didn't give details, it sounded bad...

I got to meet the Sweelys (breeders of Bailey Wick) last fall; they were so proud of him and all their successful foals. So sad.:(

[maxxtrot]

geesh, not another on. my heart skipped a beat and my stomach sank when i saw the title of this thread. i hope someone can come on and tell us what happened. and i hope phillip is doing ok. my thoughts and prayers are with phillip and all of bailey wick's connections.

[JER]

So sad to hear about this.

I hope everyone else came home safe and sound.

[maxxtrot]

how do you get to the updated twitter page?

[BestHorses]

Wow. This is so sad. Every big event seems to have a loss... :(

[LisaB]

Shit, and I knew this horse. He came up through the ranks with Emily Beshear. He was a huge love bunny on the ground. I loved playing with him.

[PhoenixFarm]

I just want to extend my deepest condolences to the connections--especially the Sweeleys. I bought my broodmare Lizzie from them 3 years ago, and when I lost her last month, and had to call them for some paperwork for the insurance company, Jess was so incredibly kind and helpful to me. A real class act that farm.

RIP lovely boy. My thoughts are with your family.

[annikak]

So sorry for all- how sad... Glad that phillip is reportably okay.
RIP lovely horse.

[ShowMeTheGlory]

I was there. Jump judging a fence right near the one it happened at. He chested the fence and rotated over it. Never tried to get up. I don't think it was health related, he was kinda sucking back and Phillip was driving him real hard and just didn't make it.
There was alot of scary looking riding there today. I don't think I can go volunteer anymore. It just wasn't fun. :no: I was afraid to watch any fences but I had to-at least my own.
Phillip is ok-he rode in the CIC afterwards.

[SuperEventer]

My condolences go out to everyone involved... That is so tragic.

[Reds-n-Greys]

So sorry to read of the loss of another lovely horse. Godspeed Bailey Wick :cry:
And my sincerest condolences to all his connections.

And {hugs} to you SMTG.

[Auburn]

Oh, no!! Sending prayers to everyone involved with this lovely horse. I, too, am beginning to dread visiting here, because I am expecting that there will be another loss of brave horse. :sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile:

[ellebeaux]

There was alot of scary looking riding there today. I don't think I can go volunteer anymore. It just wasn't fun. :no: I was afraid to watch any fences but I had to-at least my own.
Phillip is ok-he rode in the CIC afterwards.

So you're saying his horse dies then he goes and rides another one the same day? I can't respect someone who would do that, sorry.

[Carol Ames]

Havethere been any statements issued?

[AiryFairy]

So you're saying his horse dies then he goes and rides another one the same day? I can't respect someone who would do that, sorry.

I don't get it either. Maybe he's keeping a stiff upper lip and trying to be professional but that would be a dealbreaker for the day for me, I"m afraid.

[flyingchange]

Godspeed brave and beautiful one. You gave all you had.

[Carol Ames]

How was the footing:eek:?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Havethere been any statements issued?


Not yet and I'm hearing conflicting things from people that were at the fence.....To me it is way too soon to say he died from a broken neck.


Glad that Phillip is ok...and it is always sad to lose a horse.

Footing was generally ok....a bit deep in spots but held up pretty well (would rather run on that footing than rock hard!). The water was a bit deep (but still within the acceptable depths by the rules) and that caused some issues.....took a lot of impulsion to jump well through it.

[ShowMeTheGlory]

The footing to me looked great.
Where I was you couldn't even tell it rained.

[pdiddy]

Love the cover-up patrol out on COTH already

[One Star]

So you're saying his horse dies then he goes and rides another one the same day? I can't respect someone who would do that, sorry.

Then you must not have any respect for Mark Todd, because he did exactly that at Badminton in 1992 when Face the Music fell at the Vicarage Vee, broke his leg and had to be euthanized. Toddy went on to ride his second mount, which in the video retrospective of his eventing career he called, "a very good horse," and goes on to discuss why he felt compelled to carry on with the second horse.

Until you walk in their shoes, don't judge them.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Love the cover-up patrol out on COTH already


what...because some of us want to wait for the actual facts before jumping to conclusions. If that is what you call a cover up....you need to pick up a dictionary.

[pdiddy]

meow!

[piaffeprincess98]

How sad. Although probably unrelated circumstances, I saw Tigger Too's fall last year at Jersey Fresh in person and it was really horrific. I can't even imagine how the event and Phillip feel at this point.

[Bobthehorse]

Love the cover-up patrol out on COTH already

Yes, because COTH is the reason some deaths are ruled as natural causes. We make sure of it, lest anyone find out the truth. We're like the Stonecutters.

[Reynard Ridge]

Very, very sorry for the loss of the horse.

My apologies for taking this on a tangent, but I find the comments about Philip Dutton odd. He is a professional; his job is to develop and compete event horses. I am sure he was deeply saddened by the loss of his first horse, but why wouldn't he continue? I don't mean to disrespect anyone who is close to the horse, but as a professional rider, it seems to me he would be doing a dis-service to the owners/support team of the second horse if he failed to continue?

[myboyludy]

Phillip cried in his grooms arms when he got off his last horse. What you must remember is its his job to ride horses for his owners. He was very sad for his horse but he is being payed by owners to ride. Hes a pro!

[LLDM]

I find this so incredibly sad. Sincere condolences to all of Bailey Wick's connections.

Does anyone know whatever happened to the idea of mandatory time-outs for anyone involved in a rotational fall - esp. when the horse dies? This was discussed in some detail at the Safety Summit last year. Many thought it was a really good idea. I think the idea was for a 30 to 60 day time-out for the rider. It was brought up under the banner that DOC put forth, i.e. prevention of horse deaths will prevent rider deaths and injuries also. And under the idea that the most dangerous of falls are the rotational ones.

SCFarm

[PnkPanthr]

So you're saying his horse dies then he goes and rides another one the same day? I can't respect someone who would do that, sorry.

Let's stop and think about this from another vantage point. Phillip had multiple rides that day. 1 I believe in the CCI and 2 in the CIC. These horses are probably not owned by him. And he is probably being paid a lot to ride these horses, and I bet he has already been paid, considering the event was almost halfway over.

After the incident, would you want the person who is riding your horse, who YOU PAID the Jersey Fresh entry(NOT CHEAP)and are paying a world renowned rider to show for you, and say, sorry, I've had a bit of a bad day, I'm gonna skip out on riding your horses. You can take them home now. YEAH RIGHT.

You cannot dwell on the past. Phillip had to look at it as, ok....that was that horse..now this is this horse. And I'm gonna ride my best as I did on that horse, and get these horses home. You can't say oh poor me, at a CCI***.

Just so you know, don't think Phillip wasnt GREATLY bothered by this. He finished on his last horse, and as the grooms took his horse away, and he hugged I guess his grooms who helped with the horse, and I think he started to cry. Now that takes a true horseperson, to finish his day and mourn for a horse that wasn't even his own. I know a lot of ULR who wouldnt.

So before you judge, walk in his shoes. Then maybe you will understand

[LLDM]

Phillip cried in his grooms arms when he got off his last horse. What you must remember is its his job to ride horses for his owners. He was very sad for his horse but he is being payed by owners to ride. Hes a pro!

Then I must ask, do we expect too much from our Pros?

SCFarm

[colliemom]

Not yet and I'm hearing conflicting things from people that were at the fence.....To me it is way too soon to say he died from a broken neck.


Glad that Phillip is ok...and it is always sad to lose a horse.

Footing was generally ok....a bit deep in spots but held up pretty well (would rather run on that footing than rock hard!). The water was a bit deep (but still within the acceptable depths by the rules) and that caused some issues.....took a lot of impulsion to jump well through it.

Thanks, BFNE, I was going to say something similar. A friend who was fence judging near by had a much different interpretation that the previous poster. It is best to wait until the reason for the incident is know rather than jump to conclusions and possibly spread rumors.

I also saw what I thought was some pretty sub-par riding (I heard someone on the CCI** course got the DR penalties) with lots of pulling and hauling and not so much rebalancing and shifting to the hindquarters. Results were a lot of dropped knees, split knees and deer fences that were pretty scary to watch. Seemed there were quite a few very tired horses toward the end of the course, both the CCI** and the CCI*** (we left before the CIC***)

Also saw some lovely rides and lots of nice horses. Baily Wick and Phillip Dutton standd out as one on the first half of the course. Spot on at every jump I saw, and the horse had a very keen eager expression on it's face as he went. Very, very sad.

[Kap]

Phillip cried in his grooms arms when he got off his last horse. What you must remember is its his job to ride horses for his owners. He was very sad for his horse but he is being payed by owners to ride. Hes a pro!

Exactly. Finishing his rides for the day does not show disrespect for Bailey Wick. It wouldn't exactly have been fair to the owners of the other horses he had to ride that day if he scratched their horses and went home -- they paid many thousands of dollars in training and entry fees to get their horse(s) there.

Very tragic loss. My condolences to Bailey Wick's owners and support team. :(

[colliemom]

Then I must ask, do we expect too much from our Pros?

SCFarm


Good question. Or perhaps they ask too much of themselves...

[Mariequi]

Agree with the comments about P's professionalism and horses owned by others. Doesn't mean the loss was not felt or grieved over because he continued his job for the day.

As area steward at Radnor a few years ago, I had a human fatality. Second ride of the day. Was a local. Jump judges knew him. Was an anniversary year. It was just horrendous. Some chose to scratch. Some didn't. We had to be there for everyone else. The support in the event community from org's, medical staff, riders, friends, etc. is second to none. P has to be there as well. And the end of the day was/is very, very hard.

[flyingchange]

It is good advice not to judge someone until you have walked in their shoes. If you do judge and then you find yourself in similar shoes, making choices you later question down the road, boy do you feel like a schmuck.

That said, I would hope that owners of other horses that were in line to be ridden would have the decency to understand if a rider needs to call it a day after the death of a horse under him/her on course. If those owners don't understand, well, then that is a pretty sad statement.

I realize that PD is a "professional" (a wise friend of mine says that the term "professional horse trainer" is an oxymoron but I digress), but I don't think that anybody with a shred of humanity would have faulted him if he had decided to call it a day after the death of Bailey Wick.

[Centuree]

That is so tragic! And here I thought we were in the clear after I watched all the horses get safely around Badminton. So sorry and great condolences. I almost find it harder when something like this happens to a professional because when it happens to an amateur we can just attribute it to inexperience, but when it happens to a professional, you know that no one is infallible on that x-country course.

[ellebeaux]

It is good advice not to judge someone until you have walked in their shoes. If you do judge and then you find yourself in similar shoes, making choices you later question down the road, boy do you feel like a schmuck.

That said, I would hope that owners of other horses that were in line to be ridden would have the decency to understand if a rider needs to call it a day after the death of a horse under him/her on course. If those owners don't understand, well, then that is a pretty sad statement.

I realize that PD is a "professional" (a wise friend of mine says that the term "professional horse trainer" is an oxymoron but I digress), but I don't think that anybody with a shred of humanity would have faulted him if he had decided to call it a day after the death of Bailey Wick.

Thank you. I agree with this statement. Try as I may, I just don't see these horses as expendable tools. I think not riding would be a much stronger statement of rider accountability.

[starkissed]

Not yet and I'm hearing conflicting things from people that were at the fence.....To me it is way too soon to say he died from a broken neck.


Glad that Phillip is ok...and it is always sad to lose a horse.

Footing was generally ok....a bit deep in spots but held up pretty well (would rather run on that footing than rock hard!). The water was a bit deep (but still within the acceptable depths by the rules) and that caused some issues.....took a lot of impulsion to jump well through it.

breaking his neck is one of the more probable causes. There are few reasons a horse doesn't get up after a fall. And if he chested the jump/fliped over it, very likely.


eh its jst so horrible, I hate it when this stuff happens. And I do think it was a little weird for him to ride afterward. I mean I guess he had to but still

[Risk-Averse Rider]

That said, I would hope that owners of other horses that were in line to be ridden would have the decency to understand if a rider needs to call it a day after the death of a horse under him/her on course. If those owners don't understand, well, then that is a pretty sad statement.

I realize that PD is a "professional" (a wise friend of mine says that the term "professional horse trainer" is an oxymoron but I digress), but I don't think that anybody with a shred of humanity would have faulted him if he had decided to call it a day after the death of Bailey Wick.Yet so many people here seem to be faulting him for NOT calling it a day...

And I haven't heard anyone imply that the owners would not have understood if he had decided to withdraw.

I think is one of those cases where the rider simply can't win: withdraw from the other rides and be chastised for not being considerate of the owners, or continue riding and be castigated for not caring about the fallen horse.

[precious]

I'm sorry, but this entire thread fails to recognize the real issue -- the number of deaths on cross country is staggering as compared to other equine disciplines. yes there are inherent dangers in all equine sports but this issue goes beyond the acceptable. It should be banned!!!

[archieflies]

I think not riding would be a much stronger statement of rider accountability.

Please understand that different people grieve in different ways. What one person does to cope with tragedy may seem absurd to others, but you must remember that it is THEIR pain and not yours, so what you would do means nothing. Personally, I can fully understand the desire to throw all of one's efforts into something as energy- and thought-consuming as competing another horse before the full weight of the situation sets in- especially when the alternative is sitting around moping. Now if there's something you can do to make the situation better, that's one thing... but what's done is done and NOT riding could not possibly do anything to fix the situation. In the end, it was PD's deicison to make.

[archieflies]

It should be banned!!!

"It"? What exactly are we banning here? Cross country? Death in general? OK, I'm all for a ban on death. Let me talk it over with God and see what I can do...

[PnkPanthr]

I'm sorry, but this entire thread fails to recognize the real issue -- the number of deaths on cross country is staggering as compared to other equine disciplines. yes there are inherent dangers in all equine sports but this issue goes beyond the acceptable. It should be banned!!!

You are looking at it from the tragety perspective. The horses are doing what they love to do. These horses do it for the XC. These horses really come to life come cross country day. I am sorry you feel that way.

I do however believe that change is needed, but that is not the purpose of this thread. Please don't turn it into a hate eventing thread. Leave this thread to honor the horse that we lost today.

[magnolia73]

Very sad.

I don't think you can really question the rider's decision to go on. What's done is done.... the mistake was made. Probably better (mentally) for some people to get out there again right away. Probably better for some to call it a day. I can't imagine any owner getting angry at their horse being scratched- if it's money- surely the rider can offer to cover the lost expenses.

Sad day. Too many of them.

[superpony123]

I'm sorry, but this entire thread fails to recognize the real issue -- the number of deaths on cross country is staggering as compared to other equine disciplines. yes there are inherent dangers in all equine sports but this issue goes beyond the acceptable. It should be banned!!!

i spy a troll!

[superpony123]

How sad. Many jingles to PD and the horse :(

[LLDM]

Yet so many people here seem to be faulting him for NOT calling it a day...

And I haven't heard anyone imply that the owners would not have understood if he had decided to withdraw.

I think is one of those cases where the rider simply can't win: withdraw from the other rides and be chastised for not being considerate of the owners, or continue riding and be castigated for not caring about the fallen horse.

Again, the idea of a mandatory 30 day (or some period of time) time-out was put forth as an effort (in part) to relieve this dilemma.

It's in no one's best interests to "carry on" as if nothing happened, nor to expect this of the rider. This isn't wartime. It is a sport. We are trying to be safer here aren't we? If other owners can't understand this, maybe they should stick with sports involving balls and sticks?

SCFarm

[magnolia73]

The horses are doing what they love to do. These horses do it for the XC. These horses really come to life come cross country day.

Please don't go there. This sport is run for the amusement of the humans, not the desire of the horses. It is lovely that they follow our request and enjoy it.... It really is the weakest justification for the sport.

[AiryFairy]

Yet so many people here seem to be faulting him for NOT calling it a day...

And I haven't heard anyone imply that the owners would not have understood if he had decided to withdraw.

I think is one of those cases where the rider simply can't win: withdraw from the other rides and be chastised for not being considerate of the owners, or continue riding and be castigated for not caring about the fallen horse.

I think if I owned the other horses I'd be more worried about a shocked and traumatized rider taking more horses around the course after an accident like that - for his own safety and that of the horses. Can't imagine a more sickening situation to endure than watching your horse die in front of your eyes.

[saje]

Banned? No. Investigated thoroughly? Absolutely.

How many horses die each year in trailering accidents? Just as many as are lost on course I'd bet. Do we ban trailering?

I think there IS something drastically wrong with today's Eventing. I don't know what, or even how wrong it is. Are horses *really* dying more on course now than before, or has our information network gotten so good that we hear about them now a lot sooner than in pre-cellphone/internet/Twitter days?

It saddens me to no end, and I wish there were easy answers. I DO think we'll get there in the end, I such hope it's sooner rather than later.

RIP grand horse :(

eta: As to PD still continuing to ride, I'd imagine he had a contractual obligation to do so. He may have ridden anyway, I don't know. People handle grief and regret and horror in different ways. I don't fault him for it.

[Arcadien]

Please don't go there. This sport is run for the amusement of the humans, not the desire of the horses. It is lovely that they follow our request and enjoy it.... It really is the weakest justification for the sport.

I'm afraid I agree, the "but they love to go xc!" justification is a nice idea, and I know horses that don't enjoy much other riding enjoy galloping & jumping xc better, but they'd still rather than being ridden at all, be healthy & happy in a field, grazing with their buds.

And this from someone who loves eventing very much, so please don't call me a troll ;)

I'm eager to hear the real facts we can glean, and if there's anything we can learn. So yes, caution is warranted. We are all too emotional & fired up about this, and don't think those of us who love eventing aren't feeling a giant hoof stomping on our hearts over this already!

But please, please, try to wait a couple days before we start asking the harder questions. As the full story won't be out til then....

Alas, I can't blame anyone for asking questions and reaching out for solace at times like this.. I've had a shadow on my heart all afternoon. And here is the only place I can come to try to express my feelings. Need you guys times like this! So please, share your reactions, without judging or accusing (yet, if you must later okay) I can't be alone, needing to talk to someone...

Arcadien,
grieving for horse's connections, and another cruel blow to the sport she loves, but can't help but question these days, along with many others...

[snoopy]

Please don't go there. This sport is run for the amusement of the humans, not the desire of the horses. It is lovely that they follow our request and enjoy it.... It really is the weakest justification for the sport.



You beat me too it...well said.

[Arcadien]

Back to say, I would have ridden what I had to ride the rest of the day too, if I were physically healthy and the horses too, were it me in this situation. Some handle grief and tragedy differently you know. For example, my once in a lifetime mare was put down before me, from founder, and my few friends there who were shrieking with tears later chastised me for not exhibiting any emotion.

To me, I was to be steady for her. Steady for her herd mates, who understood nothing but cared that their world would continue as expected. I remained steady until I was away from the scene, then I had to pull off a road, so consumed with grief, several times in the next week's commute to and from work.

To see me at her putting down, calmly, dry eyed, holding her head as she closed her eyes, would you call me callous? I wear her soul on my heart, and will never stop crying over her loss...

Just as an example, some of us carry on through the hardest of times, to help others deal with a horrible situation, if we can manage it.

Heavy hearted,
Arcadien

[ellebeaux]

Look, I have no idea what PD's motivations are or why he made that choice. But I do wonder if his judgement would be compromised afterwards. Maybe there does need to be a mandatory day off for a rider under the circumstances.

Eventing is a shifting culture right now, from the last generation trained by cavalry folks to a large number of amatuer level competitors. So maybe I'm more touchy-feely than others. But I just can't stand every single frickin' weekend another horse or person dying.

[Evalee Hunter]

I'm sorry, but this entire thread fails to recognize the real issue -- the number of deaths on cross country is staggering as compared to other equine disciplines. . . .

Are FIVE out of every ONE HUNDRED (or, even, five out of every two hundred?) horses that run cross country dying on cross country? No! The most dangerous equine discipline, with a TRULY staggering death count is ... breeding. Go read Sport Horse Breeding. Go read Racing. The best estimates I have been able to find suggest that about 5 mares/foals of every one hundred mare/foal pairs dies related to foal birth. The death rate of mares in relation to foaling is heartbreaking. The pain that mares suffer trying to birth foals, the foals that are dismembered inside mares before birth in an attempt to get them out, is all sickening. Of course, we wouldn't have horses anymore if we quit breeding --

Yet, in spite of this, I too have done a little breeding, threw my mares out there, put their lives on the line. I hate to admit it but I have engaged in the most dangerous of equine disciplines, and it's not eventing.

[JAM]

And this kind of justification is the second weakest. How many horses are killed per minutes of being trailered per year vs. how many horses get killed per minute of being ridden at USEA Advanced level events? That would be a more relevant comparison to determine the risk of death from various activities, in my view, but I defer to the likes of RAyers or statisticians.

... How many horses die each year in trailering accidents? Just as many as are lost on course I'd bet. Do we ban trailering? ....

[JAM]

You're probably right. But I bet the number of horses who have died at Advanced in the U.S. in the last 2-3 years is frighteningly close to this.

If a particular kind of feed were found to cause death in one out of every 200 (or even 500) horses, which is probably about what the rate of death has been at A in the last 2-3 years, the feed would probably be banned; at the very least, you wouldn't use it and neither would I. I'm not saying eventing at the upper levels should be banned. But I do not see how anyone can deny that there is a profound problem that needs to be addressed, and with more seriousness and determination than the "leadership" of the "sport" is showing.

Are FIVE out of every ONE HUNDRED (or, even, five out of every two hundred?) horses that run cross country dying on cross country? No!

[vineyridge]

NOT Trolling but didn't PD have a pretty bad rotational fall not too long ago? He was forcing a horse who had come into a jump wrong to jump anyway. I can't remember if the horse survived or not.

If this turns out to be another case of that, maybe there needs to be mandatory time-out for the rider involved no matter how big a name or how "professional" s/he is.

[TyB]

Phillip had a horrible rotational fall with Loose 'n Cool at Fair Hill last fall. That's 2 rotational falls in just over 6 months for one of the best riders in the world.
There is something terribly wrong if experienced riders on experienced horses are having rotational falls this often. Something in this sport has to change!

[poopoo]

Seems like the death rate for CCI/CIC's is now one horse per venue...... How is this acceptable to any horse lover? Give me a break -- "they die doing what they love" -- PLEASE!!! So they die grazing? Because THAT is what these herd animals naturally do - they graze and socialize with EACH OTHER!!! WE are just lucky that they grace us with their kindness and trust, regardless..... We owe it to our partners to take responsibility for our actions.

[PhoenixFarm]

I truly cannot believe that anyone thinks they have any right to tell anyone else how they should or shouldn't grieve, or work through the emotions of a tragedy.

If you would have ridden, that's the right answer FOR YOU. If you wouldn't have ridden, that's the right answer FOR YOU. And that's the ONLY opinion that matters--yours of what is right for you.

Geesh, folks, thought police much?

[poopoo]

Who gives a crap if he rode another horse after.... that's not it --- why are horses dying at these things? You're missing the big picture.

[deltawave]

Until you've had another living being die in front of you, beside you, or beneath you, and to have have been involved in that death, please don't presume to judge how another person deals with it. I've had days where not one but MORE than one of my patients has died, and crap keeps happening to the ones who are still alive, and sick, and in need of what I can do for them. What am I supposed to do, go home? If I feel like I can't handle it, I take whatever time I have and get myself together. Sometimes that's five minutes. You learn to keep going, do what has to be done, and let it go some other place, some other time. Seriously, people. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you put your boot up their ass.

[JER]

If the one fall rule really is a safety rule, it should keep a rider off their mounts for the day.

While I respect PD's right to make his own choices per the current rules, you can't tell me the one fall rule is actually a safety rule if it allows a rider to get back out on course in an hour or so after a rotational fall.

I'm sure this is a difficult time for PD and his family.

[PhoenixFarm]

But at this juncture there is no rule, and for people to judge someone for how they grieve is just, well, monstrous. I cannot imagine being judged in such a horrid moment in my life--I'm sure I'd fail in someone's estimation.

Now whether there should or shouldn't be such a rule is a separate topic from whether or not someone was grieving the right way in the face of a horrible, horrible day.

[Meredith Clark]

I was going to go watch Jersey Fresh this year and now i'm really glad I didn't. Is there actual conformation that he had a rotational fall or is that still a rumor?

I refuse to make assumptions about whether or not Phillip should have ridden after the horse's death for emotional but if he was involved in a rotational fall, in my opinion, he should have called it a day.

[ellebeaux]

There's a HUGE difference between a doctor treating patients and a man being paid to ride horses in a sporting event.

I knew my statement was strong, I just wish we did not view the death of a horse as something so normal that it does not disrupt the event.

[Lori T]

How horrible. My condolences to all associated with Phillip.

[Meredith Clark]

Also... on a tangent, the idea of "there aren't more falls we just hear about them more'..

I was at the last Fair Hill event and there was a rotational fall, I posted a thread on here asking about who it was and what happened and NO ONE responded or knew anything about it.

maybe these things happen more than we see online?

[eks]

There is something terribly wrong if experienced riders on experienced horses are having rotational falls this often. Something in this sport has to change!

Yes, we need to go back to the long format! When I was competing at the upper levels (2*) from '87-97, you hardly ever heard about horses being killed doing this...why can't the powers the be see the correlation between all of these rider/horse fatalities and the switch to the short format.

My heart goes out to Philip and all of those who loved this horse.

[eks]

Also,

Why in the heck would a jump have frangible pins on the back and not on the front??? Aren't all rotational falls caused by horses hitting the front rail and rotating???

[LLDM]

The most dangerous equine discipline, with a TRULY staggering death count is ... breeding. Go read Sport Horse Breeding.

Oh. Come. On! Breeding is NOT a discipline. Horses breed and reproduce more in their natural state and less when kept by people. And when humans assist with breeding it becomes SAFER!!! Artificial Insemination, attended/assisted foalings, ultrasounding for twins, better immunizations and better/balanced diets ALL vastly improve the mortality rates over those found in the wild. There is NO comparison. NONE.

"Life in the state of nature is poor, solitary, brutish and short." Hume

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Eventing or deaths on XC. Breeding is not for the faint of heart, that much is true. But thank a breeder for your horse. Unless, of course, it was a wild Mustang.

Sorry, rant over - back to your regularly scheduled thread.

SCFarm

[poopoo]

"Why in the heck would a jump have frangible pins on the back and not on the front??? Aren't all rotational falls cause by horses hitting the front rail and rotating???"


Now that is an intelligent question .....

[JER]

From Nancy Jaffer, NJ Star-Ledger: Jersey Fresh event marred once again by death of horse (http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2009/05/jersey_fresh_event_marred_once.html)

Photos taken as the scene show that the animal somersaulted over the fence, landing on his neck as he threw his rider clear. He had to be humanely destroyed, and the owner did not want a necropsy that would have detailed the extent of his injuries.

But I thought necropsies were mandatory?

[Meredith Clark]

Also,

Why in the heck would a jump have frangible pins on the back and not on the front??? Aren't all rotational falls cause by horses hitting the front rail and rotating???

Now that you mention it there was a fence at Fair Hill that was designed like that, I saw it when I was walking the course (for kicks not because I was competing!) and I didn't even think twice about it. It is rather odd.

[AiryFairy]

But at this juncture there is no rule, and for people to judge someone for how they grieve is just, well, monstrous. I cannot imagine being judged in such a horrid moment in my life--I'm sure I'd fail in someone's estimation.

Now whether there should or shouldn't be such a rule is a separate topic from whether or not someone was grieving the right way in the face of a horrible, horrible day.

I know I am not questioning how he 'grieves', that's a personal thing and whether he's stoic or cries his eyes out is of no interest to me, what I WOULD care about is whether a rider who has been through a rotational fall and the death of the animal under him is mentally, physically and emotionally able to tackle the physical demands of another upper level course, or two, immediately after, and more importantly can he guide and protect the horses he's riding?

[Gry2Yng]

I think if I owned the other horses I'd be more worried about a shocked and traumatized rider taking more horses around the course after an accident like that - for his own safety and that of the horses. Can't imagine a more sickening situation to endure than watching your horse die in front of your eyes.

I grew up the daughter of a dog trainer/breeder and the niece of a dairy farmer. A lifestyle of breeding and raising animals brings the issue of dealing with death at a young age. As a previous poster mentioned, giving birth is very dangerous. I grew up with the knowledge that life is both precious and fragile and I learned how to grieve and have compassion while at the same time carrying on with what must be done.

I have stood in as a proxy for horse owners who could not bear the emotion of euthanizing their horse but knew it must be done. I was happy to be the source of comfort to the animal and to the owner who was glad for someone to hold the horse when he went down. I have held my own animals as well, but it is something my husband cannot do.

I am sure it is no different for doctors and for vets. Some people cannot help being shocked and traumatized and needing a "time out". Others have learned how to carry on at full capacity despite the emotions. Each of us is different we cannot impose our personal response on another person.

My condolences to all on the loss of this lovely animal.

[Gry2Yng]

From Nancy Jaffer, NJ Star-Ledger: Jersey Fresh event marred once again by death of horse (http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2009/05/jersey_fresh_event_marred_once.html)



But I thought necropsies were mandatory?

I thought so too.

[KMErickson]

Also,

Why in the heck would a jump have frangible pins on the back and not on the front??? Aren't all rotational falls caused by horses hitting the front rail and rotating???

I was walking my course a week ago and was thinking the exact same thing. All the oxers were very nicely outfitted with frangible pins on the back rails, but nothing on the front rails - how likely is it that that setup would be helpful?
In a direct rotational fall, the horse would hit the front rail and the back pin breaking wouldn't be very useful. If the horse helicoptered and came down in the middle of the jump, the back pin would break but the horse would still be potentially trapped in the front rail. It would really only be helpful in the case of the horse hanging its hinds legs on the back rail... is that the jumping situation that leads to the most rider fatalities? Don't know, just what I was thinking (while I probably should have been concentrating a little harder on my course walk;))

[AiryFairy]

From Nancy Jaffer, NJ Star-Ledger: Jersey Fresh event marred once again by death of horse (http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2009/05/jersey_fresh_event_marred_once.html)



But I thought necropsies were mandatory?

Assuming the horse was insured, wouldn't it be required for the insurance? I don't know, never had equine insurance.

[poopoo]

Why can't there be frangible pins on both rails?

[LLDM]

But at this juncture there is no rule, and for people to judge someone for how they grieve is just, well, monstrous. I cannot imagine being judged in such a horrid moment in my life--I'm sure I'd fail in someone's estimation.

Now whether there should or shouldn't be such a rule is a separate topic from whether or not someone was grieving the right way in the face of a horrible, horrible day.

For me, it isn't about how someone grieves or doesn't. It is about the likelihood of being compromised in any way, shape or form while continuing to perform a highly dangerous job/sport. Pilots are grounded, Professional drivers are too, as are similar "breaks" mandatory for those experiencing trauma in highly stressful and dangerous jobs. It is simply a logical thing to do. And if our NGB's don't have the courage to do so, I would hope we would support and encourage our Pro's to stand down anyway. I thought better of Mike W. for doing so. I just thought it was (and I hate this word) prudent.

Just like a head trauma - it is not always easy (or even possible) to judge your own condition in the face of the shock. Why ask the "shock-ee" to be the one to make such a choice? Why put that additional burden on them at such a bad time?

I don't think poorly of Phillip so much as I feel dismayed that anyone/everyone would let him continue on as if all were normal. And I fear that it's gotten so out of hand that everyone involved - from grooms to owners to officials and peers - are all "afraid" to say anything that might be taken "wrong". Really, what sense does it make to tough it out in a sport as dangerous as ours has been - especially lately?

I just don't get it.

SCFarm

[archieflies]

You're missing the big picture.

I keep seeing this said. This isn't a thread about the big picture, it's a thread about PD and what happened today. If you want the big picture, start a new thread, please, so it doesn't get in the way of any news or updates about the current situation.

[poopoo]

Just out of curiosity, how was his ride on thesecond horse? Did it look sub-par for him?

[JER]

Just like a head trauma - it is not always easy (or even possible) to judge your own condition in the face of the shock. Why ask the "shock-ee" to be the one to make such a choice? Why put that additional burden on them at such a bad time?

I don't think poorly of Phillip so much as I feel dismayed that anyone/everyone would let him continue on as if all were normal. And I fear that it's gotten so out of hand that everyone involved - from grooms to owners to officials and peers - are all "afraid" to say anything that might be taken "wrong". Really, what sense does it make to tough it out in a sport as dangerous as ours has been - especially lately?


Well put, LLDM.

(PhoenixFarm, it seemed your comment about having no such rule 'at this juncture in time' was directed toward my post about the rule. I did not say anything anywhere about anyone's grieving and have absolutely zero to say on that particular topic. I was commenting on what LLDM picked up on -- that it's not much of a safety rule if you can have a rotational fall (which carries with it a 30% chance of death or serious injury) and go back out on course on another horse in an hour or two. I would go to great lengths to stop someone I cared about from doing that.)

[Bobthehorse]

I'm sorry, but this entire thread fails to recognize the real issue -- the number of deaths on cross country is staggering as compared to other equine disciplines. yes there are inherent dangers in all equine sports but this issue goes beyond the acceptable. It should be banned!!!

Yeah, forget trying to fix things, forget trying to get down to the real issues, forget putting any effort into understanding at all.....BAN EM ALL!! Thats real intelligent. And has been so effective in the past.

[Kenike]

How horribly sad....my condolences to PD and all of the crew/staff and owners. :(

[CookiePony]

This is truly terrible news for the horse, for his connections, and for the sport. I am just heartsick.

[beeblebrox]

"Location: Virginia/New Zealand

So you're saying his horse dies then he goes and rides another one the same day? I can't respect someone who would do that, sorry."

AS long as he was checked out (rider) he has other owners he is riding for. It is tragic and if you think he is not thinking about it tonight your mistaken. This is not a hobby for some but a job and sometimes things do not go as planned or are tragic but other owners have horses they have paid to be brought along as well.

[poopoo]

The fact that horses continue to die at each big CIC is shameful.

[Stay Gold]

NOT Trolling but didn't PD have a pretty bad rotational fall not too long ago? He was forcing a horse who had come into a jump wrong to jump anyway. I can't remember if the horse survived or not.

Yes, PD did have another Rotational Fall at Fair Hill this past fall... Where again, after falling off one horse in the rotational fall, he got back on and rode other horses around the CCI*** course.

I am so sorry to PD and the horses' connections... I know two of PD's grooms and they are devastated. Such a shame that we keep losing all our best horses. Hopefully something changes soon.

[LisaB]

I thought on all oxers and uprights that the pins were mandatory for FEI competitions. And for this very f-ing reason!
And I also thought that necropsies were mandatory in FEI competitions.

[FairWeather]

I am so sad for this horse, his rider and all of his connections. I can't help but think that if one of the best, most experienced riders in the world is having these falls, what hope for the rest of us?

As for being judgmental about someone going on to ride the rest of the day, that's ludicrous. Then again, COTH is filled with the judgiest judgers who ever judged.

:rolleyes:

[Hannahsmom]

I was fortunate to see that horse in person a few years back when Emily was riding him in the same division as my horse. What a lovely horse. My condolences to the owners, Phillip, and all connected with him.

[pinkdiamondracing]

Please understand that different people grieve in different ways. What one person does to cope with tragedy may seem absurd to others, but you must remember that it is THEIR pain and not yours, so what you would do means nothing. Personally, I can fully understand the desire to throw all of one's efforts into something as energy- and thought-consuming as competing another horse before the full weight of the situation sets in- especially when the alternative is sitting around moping. Now if there's something you can do to make the situation better, that's one thing... but what's done is done and NOT riding could not possibly do anything to fix the situation. In the end, it was PD's deicison to make.

:sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile:

[retreadeventer]

I grew up the daughter of a dog trainer/breeder and the niece of a dairy farmer. A lifestyle of breeding and raising animals brings the issue of dealing with death at a young age. As a previous poster mentioned, giving birth is very dangerous. I grew up with the knowledge that life is both precious and fragile and I learned how to grieve and have compassion while at the same time carrying on with what must be done.

I have stood in as a proxy for horse owners who could not bear the emotion of euthanizing their horse but knew it must be done. I was happy to be the source of comfort to the animal and to the owner who was glad for someone to hold the horse when he went down. I have held my own animals as well, but it is something my husband cannot do.

I am sure it is no different for doctors and for vets. Some people cannot help being shocked and traumatized and needing a "time out". Others have learned how to carry on at full capacity despite the emotions. Each of us is different we cannot impose our personal response on another person.

My condolences to all on the loss of this lovely animal.

Came from a similar place - beef cattle farm - had horses my whole life in all aspects, showing, breeding, racing. When you experience death on a regular basis, it's not that you get hard about it, you just get experienced with dealing. Let me enlighten ALL who criticize. You. NEVER. get. over. it.

I would really like to know more about the fence, why there was no frangible pin where it would be effective - why the fence didn't protect horse and rider as designed - perhaps our frangible pin technology is at fault, or the placement of the pins - can anyone enlighten this discussion with a few facts? Also which fence on course? Thanks.

[luise]

The fact that horses continue to die at each big CIC is shameful.

get your facts straight. it was a CCI, not CIC

[monstrpony]

Well, sh!t.

Condolences to all of the horse's connections. Just very, very sad.

I admire Phillip's professionalism. I've had to put several geriatric animal friends down over the past couple of years. Some time in the next couple of weeks, I'm facing it with my dog-of-a-lifetime. I will take the better-too-soon approach, because I see a tendency in myself, as the need approaches, to begin to withdraw myself from the animal, which is totally unfair to him. It's my coping mechanism. I'm not entirely proud of it, but it is the way I manage it.

Who am I to criticize how PD deals with the death of this horse? I'm just glad he was able to have the choice, and I hate that the handwriting is on the wall that he's due for a bad one for himself. THAT'S the part of the sport that I'd like to see fixed.

[EqTrainer]

[quote=ShowMeTheGlory;4082068]I was there. Jump judging a fence right near the one it happened at. He chested the fence and rotated over it. Never tried to get up. I don't think it was health related, he was kinda sucking back and Phillip was driving him real hard and just didn't make it.

The bold and italics are mine. This sentence nearly made me lose my breakfast all over the keyboard.

I don't jump x-country. I don't have the balls to jump solid fences. So maybe my thoughts here mean nothing at all. But it bothers me, to think that a horse might have been not in front of the leg and died because of it. How do you eventers handle something like that on course? I personally would pull up/out, because a horse whose not in front of my leg is not going to be safe. What is the standard here? Push on and pray? Pull up and school?

[Gnep]

I wonder about the rotational fall rule, and about a rider who had and has 2 rotationals within 12 month ?

[LLDM]

This is not about the emotion of it all. When one keeps a stiff upper lip dealing with death in it's normal course, it is admirable. This is *different* from traumatic death during the performance of a dangerous task. Any Professional group *knows* the process. Whoever was closest to it stands down. Cops stand down, firefighters, racecar drivers - the list is long.

The list of those who carry on is much, much shorter. Military combatants in theater and very busy ER doctors come to mind, but not many more. Sports people, not so much. Again, this is not aimed at PD - it is aimed squarely at the culture and mindset of eventing these days.

For those who stay strong for their horses in horrible times, I applaud you. But I will also draw the distinction that you place no other animals or people in harms way by doing so. You are not potentially compounding the problem by placing another at risk because you might not be in your top form during a highly risky performance (that is not strictly necessary). There is always another day and another competition.

SCFarm

[Coreene]

Years ago, a lot of people on this BB were there when Hap Hansen's horse Hai Karate died in midair going over a GP fence. Devastating for all involved? Absolutely. And then he came back on another mount and rode again. You put it to one side and give the next ride your best. That is what a great pro does. Two things we saw that day that we'll never forget.

[Lisa Thomas]

So you're saying his horse dies then he goes and rides another one the same day? I can't respect someone who would do that, sorry.

It was a very sad day for all who were involved. I think it's very important to reserve pointed comments until Phillip has made an official comment. He had an obligation to ride the other horses for their owners & I'm sure he would have scratched if that was deemed the right thing to do. Phillip was amazing for having the strength to carry on. I know that he is quite affected by this.

[purplnurpl]

After the incident, would you want the person who is riding your horse, who YOU PAID the Jersey Fresh entry(NOT CHEAP)and are paying a world renowned rider to show for you, and say, sorry, I've had a bit of a bad day, I'm gonna skip out on riding your horses. You can take them home now. YEAH RIGHT!

Actually yes. I would not want my horse piloted by a rider carrying major mental baggage.
As a rider I would melt at the thought of going in that start box again.
Can you image, (I can't) what it must be like to lose one?

But being a Pro. I'm sure, or at least I sure hope, that names such as PD can put it in the back of his mind for a short time and get the next horse home safely. It's his job. He has QRs to meet.

[AKDragooPhoto]

As per www.Phillipdutton.com

Bailey - May 9, 2009

It is with great sadness that we report that Baileywick died today at the Jersey Fresh CCI***.

Bailey and I fell at fence number 20, a straightforward oxer, after jumping up until then a perfect round. I take full responsibility for this fall.

My deepest sympathies and gratitude go to his owners Jess and Sharon Sweely, who bred Bailey and brought him along as a young horse, Emily Basheer, who rode and competed him to preliminary level, and to my groom, Emma Ford who meticulously looked after Bailey as if he were her own child.

I want to thank the officials, support crew, and veterinarians at Jersey Fresh and my fellow riders who have been so supportive,

Sincerely,
Phillip Dutton

[pinkdiamondracing]

As per www.Phillipdutton.com

Bailey - May 9, 2009

It is with great sadness that we report that Baileywick died today at the Jersey Fresh CCI***.

Bailey and I fell at fence number 20, a straightforward oxer, after jumping up until then a perfect round. I take full responsibility for this fall.

My deepest sympathies and gratitude go to his owners Jess and Sharon Sweely, who bred Bailey and brought him along as a young horse, Emily Basheer, who rode and competed him to preliminary level, and to my groom, Emma Ford who meticulously looked after Bailey as if he were her own child.

I want to thank the officials, support crew, and veterinarians at Jersey Fresh and my fellow riders who have been so supportive,

Sincerely,
Phillip Dutton

The ONE thing that kept getting stressed @ the safety summitt was "Rider Accountability" --- and there you have it folks--- a BNR taking FULL responsibility for his horse's death.

KUDOS to PD!!!

[JER]

Last time I had a horse necropsied (in southern California, where nothing is cheap) it cost $250.

$250 is less than the cost of your entry. $250 is less than a set of joint injections.

If you have a horse competing at this level, $250 is not a significant amount of money.

It is inexcusable that necropsies are not mandated. What was all that talk about last year?

[pwynnnorman]

I don't mean the following as a reflection on any rider(s), not at all, OK...

But I am absolutely, positively convinced that at least part of the problem is that abandoning the long format, which I was all for abandoning, has resulted in the unintended and unanticipated consequences that now a rider can ride many, many more horses (or just DO many other things, not necessary riding related) and still compete at the upper levels.

I am convinced that top riders know how to ride horses better than ever before, but that sometimes (no, hardly "always") they may not know how to ride a particular horse the way it needs to be ridden at a particular moment in time. I am convinced now that the hours upon hours riders used to have to spend on each of their horses, one way or another--even if they had working students or other help--enabled them to make snap decisions about the individual animal beneath them better than they do now.

I write this but I do not, not, not blame the riders for these results. What else can they do? Everything has gotten so expensive for everyone that it is just not possible to "make it" without either a string of horses and/or owners OR a lot of other things "on the side" (part-time jobs, teaching, coaching, clinicing, etc. etc.).

Isn't that one major difference between the US and Europe? I'm asking seriously: correct me if I'm wrong, OK? But doesn't the lottery and other aspects of riding professionally in Europe -- and not just in eventing; I think I heard this is the case in show jumpers, too -- enable pros over there to concentrate more on their horses and their riding and less on making ends meet? And even the number of competitive opportunities to be had over there...doesn't that make it more likely that if a question arose that couldn't be answered at the time (in the barn OR on the course), perhaps the horse will be pulled out or pulled up or pull off to make an attempt later or in another way (as in, on course, incur the refusal, regroup and reapproach)?

I've seen close up the incredible craftsmanship top riders like PD have. Their skills are constant, I've no doubt of that. Similarly, it seems to me, the jumps and the challenges on xc are also relative "constants". It's the horses which are the variables--and not just on the course, either, where one would fully expect subtle variations that might be missed or misjudged for a variety of reasons. What if, for example, some of the cardiopulmonary issues have symptoms, but only very subtle ones? Or what if there's some commonality as yet undiscovered amongst the cardiopulmonary cases: shared routines, sets of drugs, exposures to this or that? Who would notice such little things, such obscure relationships--especially as they might be associated with the horse when it is going under saddle? One symptom might be exhibited when the horse is taken from its stall or tacked up...and then manifest later when it is hacking out. Or when it is ridden and again when turned out. Or when it has stood for hours being shipped and then again being jogged for soundness and yet again leaving the start box.

[This speculation is coming from my current experiences in worrying about "micro-strokes" with my father. My appreciation for noticing or not noticing subtle changes in another being has grown considerably, as has my recognition of how poor my perceptions are.]

There was a time when the horse was handled almost as much as it was ridden by the same person. What if part of the problem the sport is facing is that it's a sport meant to be participated in in a certain way, but just can't be any more? What if one-on-one partnerships between horse and rider are no longer what they once were? What if forces similar to those that made organizers seek to drop the long format--forces beyond the sport which made doing the sport "a certain way" less and less possible--are contributing to what is happening at the upper levels? I fear that all the research being into physical and mechanical issues surrounding these tragedies won't ever be conclusive because there are also so many logistical forces at work. Could some of these tragedies be related to the logistics of eventing?

[JAM]

Actually, he said he took full responsibility for the "fall", not the horse's death (and after noting that it was a perfect round up until then). Perhaps a meaningless semantic difference, perhaps not. One could read the statement as a whole as saying no more than "accidents happen", which to my mind is why we are having these discussions over and over and over.

I do not mean this as a slap at PD, with whom I did a clinic and for whom and for whose riding I have great respect. And his taking of responsibility for the fall is certainly better than others who have immediately gone into bunker mentality and litigation mode. But let's not make it more than it is.

The ONE thing that kept getting stressed @ the safety summitt was "Rider Accountability" --- and there you have it folks--- a BNR taking FULL responsibility for his horse's death.

KUDOS to PD!!!

[jumper19]

As per www.Phillipdutton.com

Bailey - May 9, 2009

It is with great sadness that we report that Baileywick died today at the Jersey Fresh CCI***.

Bailey and I fell at fence number 20, a straightforward oxer, after jumping up until then a perfect round. I take full responsibility for this fall.

My deepest sympathies and gratitude go to his owners Jess and Sharon Sweely, who bred Bailey and brought him along as a young horse, Emily Basheer, who rode and competed him to preliminary level, and to my groom, Emma Ford who meticulously looked after Bailey as if he were her own child.

I want to thank the officials, support crew, and veterinarians at Jersey Fresh and my fellow riders who have been so supportive,

Sincerely,
Phillip Dutton

The ONE thing that kept getting stressed @ the safety summitt was "Rider Accountability" --- and there you have it folks--- a BNR taking FULL responsibility for his horse's death.

KUDOS to PD!!!

Thank you, Phillip, for taking complete responsibility, point blank, no fluff. You have my upmost respect.

Condolences and jingles to all involved.... and ecspcially to PD for all the meaningless crap he's received on this thread. Since he was the only one who had to get through the day, and the only one who had to decide how he possibly could, he should be the only one to have a say in how he handled it.

Again, again, my sympathies.

[Classic Melody]

I don't jump x-country. I don't have the balls to jump solid fences. So maybe my thoughts here mean nothing at all. But it bothers me, to think that a horse might have been not in front of the leg and died because of it. How do you eventers handle something like that on course? I personally would pull up/out, because a horse whose not in front of my leg is not going to be safe. What is the standard here? Push on and pray? Pull up and school?

I'm not one to play thread police (I think the arguments about what is and isn't appropriate for a specific thread are silly), but this is beyond the pale for ANY rider who has competed, regardless of discipline.

So your horse is being a bit squirrely coming into a fence. What, you just pull up and say, "golly, guess I'll call it a day"? Every rider knows that not every fence is perfect. Every good rider knows that some of the best horses are not the easiest rides.

And every person with some sense knows you don't put yourself in someone else's riding boots when you don't actually know what happened at all.

My condolences to those who lost a horse yesterday. This makes me heartsick.

[chukkerchild]

Actually, he said he took full responsibility for "the fall", not the horse's death (and after noting that it was a perfect round up until then). Perhaps a meaningless semantic difference, perhaps not. One could read the statement as a whole as saying no more than "accidents happen", which to my mind is why we are having these discussions over and over and over.
.

Uh, but the fall CAUSED the death-- obviously Mr Dutton is not responsible for the DEATH. He did not cause the broken neck, but he attests to causing the FALL. Had the horse gotten to his feet and continued, Mr Dutton would still be responsible for the fall. Since the horse did not, he is responsible still only for the fall-- which, sadly, caused a death.

Very professional of him to admit so. I really admire that, considering how much backlash he will have to tolerate. I'm so sorry for everyone's loss, and for the beautiful horse.

[jumper19]

Actually, he said he took full responsibility for the "fall", not the horse's death (and after noting that it was a perfect round up until then). Perhaps a meaningless semantic difference, perhaps not. One could read the statement as a whole as saying no more than "accidents happen", which to my mind is why we are having these discussions over and over and over.

Now, now. Let's not get knit-picky.:winkgrin: Over analyzing every word is not going to do anything to prevent such incidents like this from happening to begin with....So over analyzing every word won't even be an option since there will be no words to dissect....
Rereading that I think I see my trust in the powers that be through rose colored glasses :(

[EqTrainer]

I'm not one to play thread police (I think the arguments about what is and isn't appropriate for a specific thread are silly), but this is beyond the pale for ANY rider who has competed, regardless of discipline.

So your horse is being a bit squirrely coming into a fence. What, you just pull up and say, "golly, guess I'll call it a day"? Every rider knows that not every fence is perfect. Every good rider knows that some of the best horses are not the easiest rides.

And every person with some sense knows you don't put yourself in someone else's riding boots when you don't actually know what happened at all.

My condolences to those who lost a horse yesterday. This makes me heartsick.


If you read what I wrote correctly, and could not be defensive, you would realize that I was asking a honest question about *what you do in your sport under those circumstances*.

I know what I do, in my sport, under those circumstances.

I don't know what the norm is in eventing/x-country.

That is what I was asking.

It does make me sick to think that a horse died, at least in part, because he was not in front of the leg (if that is indeed what was going on). BUT in your sport, going on under those circumstances might very well be the norm. I have no idea. That is why I asked.

As a trainer, if I felt my horse was not in front of my leg and I were expected to jump large solid fences, I would pull up. THAT'S ME. I don't think a show is a school and I would not think it was the right time to sharpen the horse up. THAT'S ME. It might be perfectly *normal* for a pro going x-country to push the horse on.

And the question I asked, FWIW, while prompted by this particular tragedy, was not a *judgement* on Phillip Dutton. It *was* a question based on the comment from someone who saw the incident and her commentary made me consider.. what would I do? What is the norm for this circumstances x-country?

It was a question. So maybe you could come out from behind your defensive position and answer it - what is usually done under these circumstances?

I'm sorry if it offends you that I ask questions but I'm not going to stop anytime soon ;)

[Weatherford]

I hate to be a naysayer, but what if a problem, such as a HEART ATTACK was the CAUSE of the rotational fall - that is the horse had something like that happen the moment before take off, cause him not to pick up the front legs and fall??

That's why a necropsy is essential, and I for one, an very sorry they aren't doing it - to at least rule out that possibility!

I think a return to the long format is critical. It may also be fiscally impossible. :(

[LLDM]

But being a Pro. I'm sure, or at least I sure hope, that names such as PD can put it in the back of his mind for a short time and get the next horse home safely. It's his job. He has QRs to meet.

Emphasis mine.

This is precisely why our NGB's should be the ones who decide, before hand, with policy, who is allowed to carry on and under what circumstances. Hopefully better than they currently are.

Safety should not be impacted by the need for QR's (qualifying rides).

SCFarm

[colliemom]

I hate to be a naysayer, but what if a problem, such as a HEART ATTACK was the CAUSE of the rotational fall - that is the horse had something like that happen the moment before take off, cause him not to pick up the front legs and fall??

That's why a necropsy is essential, and I for one, an very sorry they aren't doing it - to at least rule out that possibility!

I think a return to the long format is critical. It may also be fiscally impossible. :(


That is exactly how the people who I know who also witnessed the fall interpreted it... that the horse suddenly lost impulsion 2 or 3 strides out, and never even tried to jump. These two people both said that there was no expression in the horse's face whatsoever.

[luise]

It does make me sick to think that a horse died, at least in part, because he was not in front of the leg (if that is indeed what was going on). BUT in your sport, going on under those circumstances might very well be the norm. I have no idea. That is why I asked.

As a trainer, if I felt my horse was not in front of my leg and I were expected to jump large solid fences, I would pull up. THAT'S ME. I don't think a show is a school and I would not think it was the right time to sharpen the horse up. THAT'S ME. It might be perfectly *normal* for a pro going x-country to push the horse on.



You imply that Phillip treated the show as a "school" and an opportunity to "sharpen the horse up." Have you looked at this horse's record? It's pretty damn good. No XC jump penalties since 2006 (I didn't look at the older records). This was an experienced horse, not one who was new to the level. Who knows what happened, but it is a terrible thing. My condolences to Phillip and Bailey Wick.

[Classic Melody]

EqTrainer, no one's telling you not to ask questions.

The principles of good riding are pretty much the same across the board. If the horse is behind the leg coming into a fence, you try to fix it. Sometimes it happens too quickly to fix. You can call this rider error, or a difficult horse, or a bad circumstance. It can happen too quickly to allow parsing by a bystander, or say, some person who wasn't even there at all.

[magnolia73]

One spectator's "horse was sucking back" is another spectator's "Horse was being set up and collected".
At least the rider takes responsibility for his error, whatever it was.

[eventersmom]

There was a time when the horse was handled almost as much as it was ridden by the same person. What if part of the problem the sport is facing is that it's a sport meant to be participated in in a certain way, but just can't be any more? What if one-on-one partnerships between horse and rider are no longer what they once were? What if forces similar to those that made organizers seek to drop the long format--forces beyond the sport which made doing the sport "a certain way" less and less possible--are contributing to what is happening at the upper levels? I fear that all the research being into physical and mechanical issues surrounding these tragedies won't ever be conclusive because there are also so many logistical forces at work. Could some of these tragedies be related to the logistics of eventing?

Excellent post. This paragraph struck me as particularly on point. Is eventing straying too far from the original intent of this sport because of economic pressures on our ULR's? Perhaps we should ask our ULR's. I think the questions Pwynn raises are issues that must be considered going forward. Something isn't working and we need to take an unflinching look at all aspects of eventing to help our horses and riders compete as safely as possible.

I have nothing but respect for PD's riding and horsemanship and thought his statement shows true class and professionalism. My sincere condolences to PD and Baileywick's team on their loss.

[Twomanydawgs]

Keep on kicking and flopping that is their motto...get over it or die...seems like more than just a few are doing just that! "heels down, shoulders back, and kick on!!!" taken frm LA's blog and we all know where that frame of mind got her and her horses!:no:

[MintHillFarm]

I am very, very sad for Bailey Wick and all his connections. My deepest sympathy to everyone...

Maybe this is the wrong thread to bring this up, but this accident really sparks the issue for me yet again, on the solidness of these jumps...I am a hunter person and have never evented, so perhaps my lack of knowledge make me not one to ask the eventing riders and owners on this topic, but why can't these jumps somehow come down when a major error is made? In a hunter or jumper class, "chesting" a fence usually results in the rails scattering and other components of the jump coming down; and often not even a fall of horse or rider.

It appears that the same scenario can be a very serious mistake when it happens on the Cross Country course. I am concerned about equine sports and our horse partners who gave us their amazing capabilities and heart. I just don't feel that it is worth the risk of fatal accidents and serious injury to horses and riders, to continue building the jumps as they currently are. Can someone please explain on Cross Country jump construction? How can they better be created so that they are more able to withstand serious mistakes?

[saje]

Keep on kicking and flopping that is their motto...get over it or die...seems like more than just a few are doing just that! "heels down, shoulders back, and kick on!!!" taken frm LA's blog and we all know where that frame of mind got her and her horses!:no:

Who's motto? Eventers in general? If that's your meaning then I find it pretty offensive, and I don't use that word very often.

Philip Dutton is so far out of LA's league as to be on another planet while she's solidly earthbound.

Vilifying riders isn't going to help. The sport needs to go back to its roots, metaphorically at least, and take a long hard look at where its been and where it's headed. So much has changed and in a relatively short time, who knows what combination of factors is contributing to the carnage. Analyzing all that is going to take time and money, but it NEEDS to be done. Panicky rule changes are all well and good, but I think are merely a finger in the dike. There is an answer out there, but finding it isn't going to be easy.

[Bobthehorse]

Who's motto? Eventers in general? If that's your meaning then I find it pretty offensive, and I don't use that word very often.

Philip Dutton is so far out of LA's league as to be on another planet while she's solidly earthbound.

Vilifying riders isn't going to help. The sport needs to go back to its roots, metaphorically at least, and take a long hard look at where its been and where it's headed. So much has changed and in a relatively short time, who knows what combination of factors is contributing to the carnage. Analyzing all that is going to take time and money, but it NEEDS to be done. Panicky rule changes are all well and good, but I think are merely a finger in the dike. There is an answer out there, but finding it isn't going to be easy.

Agreed.

[Finnch]

First of all, i give my sincerest condolences to Phillip and True Prospect farm. It is a horrible tragedy.

I have a point that is hard to make because the fall was seen differently by different people. I was not there, I am just speculating. If Bailey Wick did indeed die of a broken neck, then doesn't that put the death in a different category from the horses like Kingpin or Tigger Too who died of "natural" causes? This would put Bailey Wick's death into the category of rider error (NOT insulting Phillip here, i respect him very much, he said it himself). I think it's important when examining xc fatalities to differentiate between these two types of death. When you think about it, when was the last time a horse died from rider error? If I'm missing any forgive me, but the last one I can think of was Rolex 2008. It seems that deaths from a horse's body failing are on the rise as opposed to rider failings. This is what I think needs to be examined. Again, I am not faulting Phillip or attacking him in any way, I just think it raises an interesting question about how to view deaths on xc.

[vineyridge]

HOW can the owners prevent a necropsy? I thought FEI rules mandated necropsies at all FEI events. I THOUGHT the USET had mandated them as well. If there will be neither necropsy nor inquiry, I'm thinking the USET mindset is now and will for the foreseeable future be "cover the asses" of the BNRs so they can keep on keeping on as they always have.

THIS IT BE WRONG!

Where, oh where, is true leadership and not just PR spin?

Could the smurfs rise up, not send in their USET renewals and compete only at unrecognized events. Could the big events have unrecognized sections?

[Twomanydawgs]

Yes ,Saje that was my intention to imply that is eventers mottos...perhaps I should have put "most". I have heard that statement made too many times by too many eventers to not think it is a common theme. If you are offended by that tbss. I stand by it. I hope they ban this "sport" from the Olympics because it offends me and many other horsemen. Just stating my opinion just as you are.

[RAyers]

...

It appears that the same scenario can be a very serious mistake when it happens on the Cross Country course. I am concerned about equine sports and our horse partners who gave us their amazing capabilities and heart. I just don't feel that it is worth the risk of fatal accidents and serious injury to horses and riders, to continue building the jumps as they currently are. Can someone please explain on Cross Country jump construction? How can they better be created so that they are more able to withstand serious mistakes?


Fence construction in both materials and mechanics is under study. Gnep, here on COTH, has several deformable/collapsible structures. The USEF/USEA are investigating these things.

When things become a "series" of events, regardless of individual causes, there is indication of a common failure/initiator in the system. We are just not looking hard enough (e.g. we need more resources to go through records; test theories, designs).

Now is NOT the time to pass new rules. There is a basic tenet of systems control: "The more you try to CONTROL the system, e.g. MORE rules, the more the system goes OUT OF CONTROL."

Reed

[flyingchange]

Finnch -

I am not certain but I believe the last non "natural causes" deaths of horses in advanced eventing were Mary King's Call Again Cavalier at the Eventing Express competition in Dec 08 and Zara Phillip's Tsunami at Pau in Oct 08.

[BarbB]

I don't mean the following as a reflection on any rider(s), not at all, OK...

There was a time when the horse was handled almost as much as it was ridden by the same person. What if part of the problem the sport is facing is that it's a sport meant to be participated in in a certain way, but just can't be any more? What if one-on-one partnerships between horse and rider are no longer what they once were? What if forces similar to those that made organizers seek to drop the long format--forces beyond the sport which made doing the sport "a certain way" less and less possible--are contributing to what is happening at the upper levels? I fear that all the research being into physical and mechanical issues surrounding these tragedies won't ever be conclusive because there are also so many logistical forces at work. Could some of these tragedies be related to the logistics of eventing?

Good post. I didn't copy/paste the whole thing because it was too long, but I urge anyone who didn't read this post or didn't read it carefully, to scroll back up and read it.

I remember when Mark Todd won Badminton on a "catch ride" (Horton Point?). It was considered an impossible feat. The horse was a favorite but the consensus was that no one, not even Mark Todd, could get to know a horse well enough in only a short time to really be competitive at a venue like Badminton.
Catch rides at the upper levels are no longer considered unthinkable.
The focus of the sport seems to have shifted from partnership to the separate skills and talents of the horse and rider. It's more like a mathematical formula than the idea that the sum is greater than the parts.
Like wynn, I think the sport has shifted, the riders are doing the best they can in a different world.
I feel that we took several wrong turns years ago, but unfortunately I have no idea how to undo what has been done to the sport.

Personally, I am very saddened to come back to this board after a long hiatus and find that, just like the day I last visited, there is a sad discussion about the death of a top horse, under a top rider, at a top event.

[La Gringa]

Another high level event, another death. The two seem to go hand in hand. It needs to stop!!!!!

Very sad, my condolences for the owner and Phillip Dutton.

[Rob N]

Earlier in the round

http://www.dotphoto.com/Go.asp?l=Horseshow&P=&AID=5838072&IID=216888601

They took this section with ease, always the professionals.

Condolances to all.

[LarryBird]

Well, after reading through the various eventing threads and posts here as well as reviewing the history of the sport, I know for sure now that I won't be backing any event horses or riders. I actually now feel better about horse racing.

[LLDM]

Excellent post. This paragraph struck me as particularly on point. Is eventing straying too far from the original intent of this sport because of economic pressures on our ULR's? Perhaps we should ask our ULR's. I think the questions Pwynn raises are issues that must be considered going forward. Something isn't working and we need to take an unflinching look at all aspects of eventing to help our horses and riders compete as safely as possible.

I have nothing but respect for PD's riding and horsemanship and thought his statement shows true class and professionalism. My sincere condolences to PD and Baileywick's team on their loss.

Good post. I didn't copy/paste the whole thing because it was too long, but I urge anyone who didn't read this post or didn't read it carefully, to scroll back up and read it.

I remember when Mark Todd won Badminton on a "catch ride" (Horton Point?). It was considered an impossible feat. The horse was a favorite but the consensus was that no one, not even Mark Todd, could get to know a horse well enough in only a short time to really be competitive at a venue like Badminton.
Catch rides at the upper levels are no longer considered unthinkable.
The focus of the sport seems to have shifted from partnership to the separate skills and talents of the horse and rider. It's more like a mathematical formula than the idea that the sum is greater than the parts.
Like wynn, I think the sport has shifted, the riders are doing the best they can in a different world.
I feel that we took several wrong turns years ago, but unfortunately I have no idea how to undo what has been done to the sport.

Personally, I am very saddened to come back to this board after a long hiatus and find that, just like the day I last visited, there is a sad discussion about the death of a top horse, under a top rider, at a top event.

Pwynn's post (in it's entirety) and the two above bear repeating.

SCFarm

[Thomas_1]

Then I must ask, do we expect too much from our Pros?

SCFarm

Do you expect your vet to come when you do an emergency call out despite the fact that he might just have had to attend a horse that died?

When something like this happens it's awful but as a rider you have a choice. You either give up or you carry on.

He's a professional rider. It's his job. It's what he does. What do you expect him to do? Retire???? Pack up totally?????

[LLDM]

HOW can the owners prevent a necropsy? I thought FEI rules mandated necropsies at all FEI events. I THOUGHT the USET had mandated them as well.


I agree! (Although it's the USEF, not the USET) All I could find at first look on the USEA website was this:

•Safety Studies and Research

Pulmonary hemorrhage – Dr. Kent Allen and Dr. Catherine Kohn have formed a team to examine and investigate pulmonary events as causes of equine fatalities. The USEA is providing funding for necropsies for all equine fatalities that occur during an eventing competition.

If owners are allowed to refuse? What's the point? I do hope this is not an option and there are rules in place to mandate it.

SCFarm

[LLDM]

Do you expect your vet to come when you do an emergency call out despite the fact that he might just have had to attend a horse that died?

When something like this happens it's awful but as a rider you have a choice. You either give up or you carry on.

He's a professional rider. It's his job. It's what he does. What do you expect him to do? Retire???? Pack up totally?????

Do you expect to get on an airplane with a pilot who just had a crash?

Yes, I expect the vet to come. It is an *emergency*. Not a sport. (See my post about ER doctors.) That is "life or death" and to not come is more dangerous than it is to come. Showing up increases the horse's chance of survival, even if the vet is in some way compromised or affected.

I do not expect the rider to have to make such a decision any more than I expect a pilot to. I expect that decision to be made by impartial people before hand who have the best interests of the sport, the riders and the horses in mind and who are emotionally unconnected with the current situation.

That is what I expect. And I expect the rider to resume when the official inquiry is completed, if the rider so desires at that time.

SCFarm

[MandyVA]

My sympathies to PD and the horse's other connections.

Question: what does PD have to gain by doing the necropsy? It seems likely to yield one of two results:

1. Either the horse did suffer some sort of severe internal injury before jumping, in which case, PD loses because he made a horse-that he should have felt was off-go over the jump; or

2. There was no such injury and the horse suffered a broken neck after chesting a jump and suffering a rotational fall, in which case, PD loses because it had to be rider error.

If the necropsy is not required, and either outcome is bad for PD, why would he do it? Is it better to let everyone speculate than to confirm that their suspicions, in either outcome, were right?

[retreadeventer]

That is exactly how the people who I know who also witnessed the fall interpreted it... that the horse suddenly lost impulsion 2 or 3 strides out, and never even tried to jump. These two people both said that there was no expression in the horse's face whatsoever.

I bet he was dead at that point, Colliemom - do you think so? (I trust your observation)
Having seen that expression on horses racing. They are on auto at that point.
In both cases I have seen it was an aneurysm, and in one I can think of, a pulmonary embolism ended up the cause. I saw a horse go about what we figure was a quarter mile at racing speed on the pace, and essentially was dead the entire time (in talking with the driver in detail about what he felt and what we saw). You know, if you put an obstacle in front of that horse, he would have done the EXACT same thing physically as the event horse. No question in my mind.

I bet it was, and I also think that all this (banging away on keyboards about various tangents which are getting absurdly personal, ridiculously scrupulous, annoyingly ignorant ) ...is for naught...if that were the case. Mostly I feel bad for Phillip, who obviously is shouldering blame when in fact it may not have been his fault in any way.

But by all means, COTH event board trolls, don't the facts get in the way of sharpening those villification skills!

[Gry2Yng]

Emphasis mine.

This is precisely why our NGB's should be the ones who decide, before hand, with policy, who is allowed to carry on and under what circumstances. Hopefully better than they currently are.

Safety should not be impacted by the need for QR's (qualifying rides).

SCFarm

NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INCIDENT IN PARTICULAR!

No, safety should not be impacted by the need for QR's, but it was the NGB's that decided to put so much emphasis on QR's. So now we should let them weigh in on even more. We legislate and legislate and things get worse and worse. Used to be a day when you jumped 4 clean prelims and you were good to go and do a LONG format CCI. Life was simple. A bad dressage day or rails in stadium did not force you to go out and do ANOTHER competition. We focused on the xc. We bought and rode horses that were good at xc in order to LEARN the levels. Later we went back and polished the dressage and stadium. We rode at most two CCI's per year.

I thought we were doing pretty well with the set of rules we had 10 years ago. Why do we keep going down a path where we add more layers onto a foundation that is crumbling beneath us.

[flyingchange]

I mean I can see both sides. I can see the rider wanting to get back on and ride again because he wants to get what happened out of his mind. I can totally see that. Try to squeeze something good out of the day because otherwise you are in a very, very hard and bad place.

I think PD had his own personal reasons for continuing to ride. I do not blame him for doing so. If it were me, I probably would have done the same thing. If you have some kind of escape from the horror with which you are confronted (the death of your horse), I can completely see taking it to sort of put off the inevitable aybss that you are about to fall into, and to try to get something positive out of the day. We have all been there.

My heart does go out to Phillip And to all of Bailey Wick's connections. RIP dear horse.

[RAyers]

...Why do we keep going down a path where we add more layers onto a foundation that is crumbling beneath us.



See my statement concerning systems engineering. The more you try to control the system, e.g more rules etc., the more the system goes out of control. The same is true in fly-by-wire avionics or eventing. The more folks try doing things without TRUE understanding, the more things go out of control.

Reed

[Equilibrium]

Are FIVE out of every ONE HUNDRED (or, even, five out of every two hundred?) horses that run cross country dying on cross country? No! The most dangerous equine discipline, with a TRULY staggering death count is ... breeding. Go read Sport Horse Breeding. Go read Racing. The best estimates I have been able to find suggest that about 5 mares/foals of every one hundred mare/foal pairs dies related to foal birth. The death rate of mares in relation to foaling is heartbreaking. The pain that mares suffer trying to birth foals, the foals that are dismembered inside mares before birth in an attempt to get them out, is all sickening. Of course, we wouldn't have horses anymore if we quit breeding --

Yet, in spite of this, I too have done a little breeding, threw my mares out there, put their lives on the line. I hate to admit it but I have engaged in the most dangerous of equine disciplines, and it's not eventing.

I know a bit OTT, but so on the money with the entire post.

In 2 breeding seasons I lost 2 out of a grand total of 5 foals. One ran into a gate at 3 months of age while goofing around - broke neck by the way, and the other was killed by another mare not her mother. For me, I only breathe a sigh of relief when they're weaned.

If any horse doesn't like his or her chosen sport chances are they aren't in it very long. So maybe they are here for human amusement but I come from the school of thinking which says horses like having a job. At least mine anyway are bored rotten sitting in a field being "do nothings". They do things for me because they like to, not because I want a little amusement.

Terri

[JER]

No, safety should not be impacted by the need for QR's, but it was the NGB's that decided to put so much emphasis on QR's. So now we should let them weigh in on even more. We legislate and legislate and things get worse and worse. Used to be a day when you jumped 4 clean prelims and you were good to go and do a LONG format CCI. Life was simple. A bad dressage day or rails in stadium did not force you to go out and do ANOTHER competition. We focused on the xc. We bought and rode horses that were good at xc in order to LEARN the levels. Later we went back and polished the dressage and stadium. We rode at most two CCI's per year.

I thought we were doing pretty well with the set of rules we had 10 years ago. Why do we keep going down a path where we add more layers onto a foundation that is crumbling beneath us.

:yes::yes::yes:

If these deaths weren't happening at this rate under the old QRs, we should roll back the rules to the old QRs.

If you are a pilot and you get in trouble, the first step is to undo what you just did. That solves the problem most of the time.

The dressage score and SJ rails may very well be totally meaningless. Allowing 20 XC jumping pens? Might mean a lot. We have horses/riders going to CCI***/CCI**** who have an alarming lack of clean XC runs. Who cares if they can make a nice trot circle in a groomed arena?

[Coreene]

Thimas, right on baby. And, just as an oft-repeated-by-many aside, I don't remember reading about death after death when we had the long format. FEI bowing to Allemange was a really stupid thing.

[shea'smom]

I think I will wait until I read it somewhere else before i believe there will not be an necropsy.
As far as Philip possibly being to blame for not noticing and pulling up horse, could have happened in the last two strides.
I think we will be hearing more info about this if we give it a couple of days.
I send my utmost sympathy to Philip and friends.

[JER]

I think I will wait until I read it somewhere else before i believe there will not be an necropsy.


Here's a second source for you. From the Chronicle of the Horse coverage (http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=1330605094477587&ShowArticle_ID=1330905092576683):

Phillip Dutton’s CCI*** mount Bailey Wick, owned by Acorn Hill Farms in Madison, Va., was euthanized immediately after a fall on the cross-country course at the Jersey Fresh CCI in Allentown, N.J., today, May 9. A necropsy was not performed, at the owners’ request.

Hard to believe, isn't it?

[LLDM]

See my statement concerning systems engineering. The more you try to control the system, e.g more rules etc., the more the system goes out of control. The same is true in fly-by-wire avionics or eventing. The more folks try doing things without TRUE understanding, the more things go out of control.

Reed

I think I get this (having been an SE). But what IS the answer? I keep coming back to Licensing at the upper levels. No, it will not prevent all of the problems. Yes, some people will get a license they should not have. But... There are many, *many* things that are useful in having the ability to grant and revoke a rider's license.

Even the idea that one might lose their license would provoke more caution in the responsible ones. The irresponsible ones would likely lose a license quicker.

I agree that we can't legislate good sense or prevent debatable decisions under difficult circumstances. But we should have some ability to reinforce good choices and to prevent or punish the poor ones. There has to be *some* way we can encourage people to more actively and objectively manage their own risk factors and take away that privilege if they fail to do so. And degrees of this in between (i.e. bad points, provisional licenses, etc.)

Oh, and food for thought. Commercial drivers & pilots (i.e. professional drivers & pilots) have much higher standards than private drivers & pilots when it come to their licenses. The idea being that the more your drive or fly, the more responsible you have to be - as the more you are on the road, the more carefully you need to manage yourself, your vehicle and your habits to be safe and keep others safe as well. So it seems to me that someone riding professionally that rides multiple horses per event on a regular basis should be held to higher standards than someone who rides one or maybe two on occasion. Call it a commercial license.

Just a thought.

SCFarm

[Jealoushe]

My condolences to all :(

[Bobthehorse]

Well, after reading through the various eventing threads and posts here as well as reviewing the history of the sport, I know for sure now that I won't be backing any event horses or riders. I actually now feel better about horse racing.

Thanks for sharing.

[zagafi]

If the one fall rule really is a safety rule, it should keep a rider off their mounts for the day.

While I respect PD's right to make his own choices per the current rules, you can't tell me the one fall rule is actually a safety rule if it allows a rider to get back out on course in an hour or so after a rotational fall.

I'm sure this is a difficult time for PD and his family.

THIS. Is exactly where I struggle with some of the [edit] "safety" initiatives. A rider can pop off, land on his or her feet and be ELIMINATED, but it's ok for a BNR to have a rotational fall, have a horse die as a result, and go on to compete 2 more horses the same day? I'm not judging PD--I know we all process things in our own way. But if folks truly cannot see that flaw in the USEA's logic with their "safety" rules, we've got huge problems. I don't blame Phillip--I blame the [messed] up system that gives this behavior an implicit nod.

[ShowMeTheGlory]

He was still breathing as he was laying on the ground.

[NMPonyClubber]

As a 17-year old event about to move up to prelim, I routinely think about the cost of my sport on our equine partners. And every time I reach the same conclusion. There are worse things we can do to horses than kill them. I am very curious as to what exactly all you people who seem so anti-eventing do in the horse world. At the base of all your arguments is the point that Cross Country is horse abuse. What consitiutes horse abuse? To me, if you are going to make the argument that what we do is wrong, you need to make several other demands.

1) No horse is ever in a stall for more than 1 day consecutivly. They are flight animals that need room to run. And for a hell of a lot more than these two and half hour "turnouts"
2) Have every horse vetted before every competition. The number of lame horses I see at show in every discpline kills me.
3) Correct shoeing. I bought a horse out of the hunter/jumper world, where the long toe, low heel is the fashion, and he had so much filling in his fetlocks when we vetted him he did not pass.

I could go on, but I think you get my point. While these horses may expereince some severe pain, and then death, many of our horses live their entire lives in some degree of pain. While there are some obvious safety issues, I love my sport, and I think unless you can offer a solution, you should not be reminding use of what we already know. Every rider at every event leaves the start box knowing in the back of their mind that this might be their last ride on that horse, and in knowing that, most of them use their best judgement to ensure that does not happen. But, there are still way to many that are in over their heads, and that needs fixing

[Vitriolic]

Maybe this is the wrong thread to bring this up, but this accident really sparks the issue for me yet again, on the solidness of these jumps...I am a hunter person and have never evented, so perhaps my lack of knowledge make me not one to ask the eventing riders and owners on this topic, but why can't these jumps somehow come down when a major error is made? In a hunter or jumper class, "chesting" a fence usually results in the rails scattering and other components of the jump coming down; and often not even a fall of horse or rider.


This is a good point. While other disciplines have made obstacles smaller, safer or easier, eventing keeps getting tougher. When I started showing hunter, ponies jumped 3', juniors 3'6" and open 4'. Those heights were often totally made of a wall, coop, brush box or gate. Fast forward a few decades and people are jumping (in the hunter ring) far smaller safer jumps with far more poles and friendly flowers for filler. I have never seen a horse badly hurt in the hunter ring, nevermind killed! While hunter is supposedly based on what is found in the hunt field, I have yet to see pink petunias in cute little boxes while out hunting. ;) Why can't eventing "simulate" cross country in a similar manner? Sure people would have knock downs that would require a calculator to add up, but at least they would fall down and off less.

[NMPonyClubber]

Why can't eventing "simulate" cross country in a similar manner? Sure people would have knock downs that would require a calculator to add up, but at least they would fall down and off less.[/QUOTE]

Its called a franglible pin system and it cost $500+ per fence, not including extra parts, so money is a huge issue. Look it up on the USEA website.

[LLDM]

As a 17-year old event about to move up to prelim, I routinely think about the cost of my sport on our equine partners. And every time I reach the same conclusion. There are worse things we can do to horses than kill them.

Make no mistake here. We do that too. Do you know how many horses wash out of eventing? Or even just wash down the levels? Any guess as to why that is? Yep, they are lame, hurt, in pain or just over faced. As a Pony Clubber, I am surprised you are unaware of that fact.

I AM an eventer. I do NOT think XC or eventing is abuse. But I damn well think that some of the things happening out on course now are abusive. And I am deeply concerned that we don't know what is or isn't acceptable anymore. When I was your age, at least we were clear.

Honestly, the rest of your logic just saddens me. We should not talk about the obvious? Because some horses are always in pain, it's okay for use to use them more and/or poorly? Really? Because other disciplines have problems, we should ignore our own?

I really hope I got the gist of your post way wrong. But to tell others in other disciplines to MYOB is not helpful in the least. Esp. when you are sitting there disrespecting theirs (who have a much lower mortality rate).

We are in no position to dismiss the advice or concerns of others.

SCFarm

[LLDM]

Its called a franglible pin system and it cost $500+ per fence, not including extra parts, so money is a huge issue. Look it up on the USEA website.

Bailey Wick died on a frangible pinned fence.

SCFarm

[snoopy]

As a 17-year old event about to move up to prelim, I routinely think about the cost of my sport on our equine partners. And every time I reach the same conclusion. There are worse things we can do to horses than kill them. I am very curious as to what exactly all you people who seem so anti-eventing do in the horse world. At the base of all your arguments is the point that Cross Country is horse abuse. What consitiutes horse abuse? To me, if you are going to make the argument that what we do is wrong, you need to make several other demands.

1) No horse is ever in a stall for more than 1 day consecutivly. They are flight animals that need room to run. And for a hell of a lot more than these two and half hour "turnouts"
2) Have every horse vetted before every competition. The number of lame horses I see at show in every discpline kills me.
3) Correct shoeing. I bought a horse out of the hunter/jumper world, where the long toe, low heel is the fashion, and he had so much filling in his fetlocks when we vetted him he did not pass.

I could go on, but I think you get my point. While these horses may expereince some severe pain, and then death, many of our horses live their entire lives in some degree of pain. While there are some obvious safety issues, I love my sport, and I think unless you can offer a solution, you should not be reminding use of what we already know. Every rider at every event leaves the start box knowing in the back of their mind that this might be their last ride on that horse, and in knowing that, most of them use their best judgement to ensure that does not happen. But, there are still way to many that are in over their heads, and that needs fixing





ahhh...gotta love youth

[NMPonyClubber]

I understand what you are saying and I agree, that there are a lot "used up" horses. I am glad that you said what you did I think it adds, I just don't think that everyone gets it, you know? And I do agree that there are a lot of grey areas that need clarification. Also, as a Pony Clubber, I feel that this is the one part of safety that is not stressed enough in PC, the knowing when enough is enough. Esp. out XC

[NMPonyClubber]

Bailey Wick died on a frangible pinned fence.

SCFarm

Your Kidding? Wow, that is. . .extra extra not good. How did it not give?

[LLDM]

Your Kidding? Wow, that is. . .extra extra not good. How did it not give?

It was an oxer. The back was pinned, the front was not. He chested over the front and rotated.

SCFarm

[snoopy]

Your Kidding? Wow, that is. . .extra extra not good. How did it not give?



The use of this pin has caused a serious false sense of security. Often fences are not pinned correctly nor do they always break when they should.

[NMPonyClubber]

not that I have extensive (or any) knowledge of frangeble pinning styles, but if the biggest problem is rotational falls, wouldn't you want the front rail to be the one pinned if you had to choose?

Snoopy: Do think that they are worth it at all?

[JER]

Frangible pins aren't going to solve everything.

How about the King Pins, the Tigger Toos, the Eight St. James Places, the Direct Mergers, and so on? These are horses dying of hemorrhages and vascular ruptures on XC. Try solving that problem with a frangible pin or a styrofoam fence.

The frangible pin was engineered and designed to break the deadly trajectory of the horse and rider rotating together over the fence as this often results in the horse crushing the rider, which about 30% of the time ends in catastrophic injury to the rider. The idea is simply this: if you can change the trajectory of the horse by having the fence break at the top of the rotation, the horse will be put on a different trajectory and therefore not crush the rider. It makes no claim at all for mitigating the horse's injuries. The genesis of this whole endeavour was to spare the rider's life. It was not about the welfare of the horse -- and there seems to be a misunderstanding about this.

[JER]

not that I have extensive (or any) knowledge of frangeble pinning styles, but if the biggest problem is rotational falls, wouldn't you want the front rail to be the one pinned if you had to choose?


NMPonyClubber, you're doing some good thinking. :)

But try this -- draw yourself a CCI*** oxer, then take your plastic pony (we all have 'em, even if we call ourselves adults :D) and do a rotational fall over the front rail. It should be pretty self evident why we wouldn't want it this way.

[Luvinfoofy]

For those of you that saw the accident - did the back of the oxer, the part that was pinned, come down during the fall? I assume that it was hit significantly. As others have said, it isn't clear why the back of an oxer would be pinned but not the front. It seems the true danger lies in that first "half" of the fence.

In all of these accidents I think it is important that we separate falls/deaths related to health problems and those related to rider error/horse error/etc. While we need to look at the causes for every single accident - pins on an oxer aren't going to prevent a heart-attack related death if you know what I mean.

I don't keep up on every event nor every accident but for those of you who do -- What would you say the percentage of horse deaths over the past 3 years at upper levels were caused by health issues (not calling them natural causes at this point --- something is going on!) and what percentage were caused by actual contact with a fence? :confused: That might be suprising.

[precious]

oye! yes its a tragedy, why the need to question the riders motives or feelings, why discuss the pins, etc. bottom line, the "sport" should be suspended until the issue can be resoved. These deaths are nothing new and the responses are simply patches to the problem. The jumps need to fall down when they are hit in this and similar fashion. get back to the basics. When was the last time you went on a cross country ride and had to jum through some of the bs you see on a course?

[Luvinfoofy]

Frangible pins aren't going to solve everything.

How about the King Pins, the Tigger Toos, the Eight St. James Places, the Direct Mergers, and so on? These are horses dying of hemorrhages and vascular ruptures on XC. Try solving that problem with a frangible pin or a styrofoam fence.

The frangible pin was engineered and designed to break the deadly trajectory of the horse and rider rotating together over the fence as this often results in the horse crushing the rider, which about 30% of the time ends in catastrophic injury to the rider. The idea is simply this: if you can change the trajectory of the horse by having the fence break at the top of the rotation, the horse will be put on a different trajectory and therefore not crush the rider. It makes no claim at all for mitigating the horse's injuries. The genesis of this whole endeavour was to spare the rider's life. It was not about the welfare of the horse -- and there seems to be a misunderstanding about this.


I should have read that before posting -- you're spot on.

[AKDragooPhoto]

He never got his forelegs in front of him on take off. He hit the front rail with his chest. He hit the back rail with his knees. He didn't put downwards pressure on the back rail.

[joharavhf]

:( Such a very sad occurence to a beautiful horse and a very gifted rider.

I have a point that is hard to make because the fall was seen differently by different people. I was not there, I am just speculating. If Bailey Wick did indeed die of a broken neck, then doesn't that put the death in a different category from the horses like Kingpin or Tigger Too who died of "natural" causes? This would put Bailey Wick's death into the category of rider error (NOT insulting Phillip here, i respect him very much, he said it himself).

I too think it's VERY important to be "lumping" the deaths in to different categories. If we can't put statistics on the deaths then how will we know what to fix? Are the horses just not holding up as well nowadays? (Because they aren't being fitted up for a long format?) or is it the riders aren't as skilled? or the courses are so technical? etc, etc.

I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of these deaths are related to the long v. short format, plus the ever increasing demands to make the courses more technical.

RIP Bailey Wick

[ShowMeTheGlory]

None of the fence came down.

[snoopy]

Frangible pins aren't going to solve everything.

How about the King Pins, the Tigger Toos, the Eight St. James Places, the Direct Mergers, and so on? These are horses dying of hemorrhages and vascular ruptures on XC. Try solving that problem with a frangible pin or a styrofoam fence.

The frangible pin was engineered and designed to break the deadly trajectory of the horse and rider rotating together over the fence as this often results in the horse crushing the rider, which about 30% of the time ends in catastrophic injury to the rider. The idea is simply this: if you can change the trajectory of the horse by having the fence break at the top of the rotation, the horse will be put on a different trajectory and therefore not crush the rider. It makes no claim at all for mitigating the horse's injuries. The genesis of this whole endeavour was to spare the rider's life. It was not about the welfare of the horse -- and there seems to be a misunderstanding about this.



well said.

NMponyclubber.....this would be along the lines of my response about pins

[Gnep]

My question and it has nothing personal to do with PD.
What are the consequences now, a rider had two rotationals within 12 month and lets asume the account of the one jump judge is correct, does that rider go on the misterious watch list and does he get the bad boy call from Captain Cough Cough.
How does an accident like this get investigated, is it just explained away by freak accident.

Will there be a evaluation of the riding in the investigation as in DR or does that only aply to lower levels.

Will the US-Governingbody, USEF, shy away from any investigation and just claim it to be a FEI matter.
We have had to many accidents at the very upper levels, most of them caused by the rider and no consequences for the rider.

If a rider has 2 rotationals in 12 month it should at least raise some eyebrows

[snoopy]

My question and it has nothing personal to do with PD.
What are the consequences now, a rider had two rotationals within 12 month and lets asume the account of the one jump judge is correct, does that rider go on the misterious watch list and does he get the bad boy call from Captain Cough Cough.
How does an accident like this get investigated, is it just explained away by freak accident.

Will there be a evaluation of the riding in the investigation as in DR or does that only aply to lower levels.

Will the US-Governingbody, USEF, shy away from any investigation and just claim it to be a FEI matter.
We have had to many accidents at the very upper levels, most of them caused by the rider and no consequences for the rider.

If a rider has 2 rotationals in 12 month it should at least raise some eyebrows



That IS an elephant in the room and worth the discussion. Take the rider out of it and focus on the circumstances...

[JER]

If a rider has 2 rotationals in 12 month it should at least raise some eyebrows

12 months? The other one was in Oct 08.

6 months and 25 days ago.

[JER]

That IS an elephant in the room...

Ah. :yes:

But the room, at this point, is filled with elephants.

(And where you have elephants, you often have clowns. And illusionists.)

[bascher]

12 months? The other one was in Oct 08.

6 months and 25 days ago.

I'm not an eventer, I'm a H/J, but I do follow this stuff and read the eventing forum quite often. As I read through this thread, this was what stuck out to me. If all of these other safety measures are being implemented, how can you not set down a rider that has had two rotational falls in about six months, regardless of level, fame, etc. Truly this is an honest question, and I do feel absolutely horrible for PD. I will not judge him at all, I've never had a horse die underneath of me so I refuse to judge how he may feel. My question is simply related to the safety procedures..if two falls means that you must drop down a level (I'm pretty sure that's what the new rule said?) shouldn't two rotational falls be a more severe punishment?

[armyeventer]

I just completed a BN event and thoroughly enjoyed the cross country. It was safe, fun, and both my horse and I finished well. But two years ago, I took out my 14 year old mare to her first BN combined test. She did her dressage and we were warming up for stadium when she reared back and dropped. Three minutes later, she was dead. There was nothing for me to do except wonder if there were any signs I'd missed that could have saved her life. The recriminations were horrible. All I could think of was how I'd failed her. The only thing that kept me going was work, the fact that I had a barn full of horses at home that still needed to be fed, watered, and turned out, whether I was in emotional distress or not. I don't pretend to know what PD is going through, but sometimes, the only way to cope with grief is to turn it off until you can deal with it. To throw yourself into work to keep going. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I ride, that's the only thing I focus on. I don't think about problems or events, just riding the next step, jumping the next jump. Everything narrows to completing the course. Maybe it was the best therapy for him. To safely take around a healthy horse and finish the event before succumbing to the pain that a loss like this entails.

As for those calling for an end of cross-country, what levels should stop? I just competed BN and we didn't have any deaths. We had a couple of rider falls, but nothing drastic. I'm not trying to be belligerent. I'm just trying to determine where we should look. I know people who have lost their horses at the lower levels, but those are not as apparent as the upper levels.

I don't believe that cross country should be banned. I do believe that Eventing needs an overhaul, starting from the ground up. I think forums like this are wonderful for discussing ideas and making things happen, provided people are constructive.

[RAyers]

Ah. :yes:

But the room, at this point, is filled with elephants.

(And where you have elephants, you often have clowns. And illusionists.)

With a Looney Toons soundtrack playing in the background.

Reed

[Janet]

Not sure about the FEI rules, but the USEF rules only apply to two falls FROM/OF THE SAME HORSE, and it is the HORSE that gets set down, not the rider.

[merrygoround]

I think all of the Sunday Morning Quarterbacks should sit down and shut up until the results of the post mortem are in. I have seen riders torture themselves for days for mis-rides, when the beloved horse died of an aneurysm or some other unavoidable internal disaster.

A horse of that caliber does not usually back off in front of a fence, but horse and rider are focused on the "up and over" mode, and will on autopilot go for it.

My sympathies to all connections of the horse.

[JER]

I think all of the Sunday Morning Quarterbacks should sit down and shut up until the results of the post mortem are in.

When you climb down from your podium, read this thread for comprehension.

There will be no post-mortem, at least not on the horse. Per the Chronicle (http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=40511032791602&News_ID=1330905092552525):
Phillip Dutton’s CCI*** mount Bailey Wick, owned by Acorn Hill Farms in Madison, Va., was euthanized immediately after a fall on the cross-country course at the Jersey Fresh CCI in Allentown, N.J., today, May 9. A necropsy was not performed, at the owners’ request.


I added the bold for your convenience.

[LLDM]

When you climb down from your podium, read this thread for comprehension.
Originally Posted by merrygoround http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4083831#post4083831)
I think all of the Sunday Morning Quarterbacks should sit down and shut up until the results of the post mortem are in.
There will be no post-mortem, at least not on the horse. Per the Chronicle (http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=40511032791602&News_ID=1330905092552525):

Phillip Dutton’s CCI*** mount Bailey Wick, owned by Acorn Hill Farms in Madison, Va., was euthanized immediately after a fall on the cross-country course at the Jersey Fresh CCI in Allentown, N.J., today, May 9. A necropsy was not performed, at the owners’ request.I added the bold for your convenience.

This is, dammit - I can think of no better word than - a travesty. I have always thought the Acorn Hill breeding program was, well, better than that. I am very dismayed that they are unwilling to participate in a program designed to find answers to these horse deaths. And while I understand that sending a horse one bred, raised and competed to a necropsy could not be easy, I do think that they should be required to do so. And take comfort that their horse's death may provide the clues that prevent such things in the future.

I simply do not understand this decision. Or how TPTB could not influence it.

SCFarm

[TLA]

The FEI requires the formation of an Ad Hoc Committee prior to every FEI competition. The purpose of it is to investigate deaths and other serious accidents - I belive that includes to horse fatalities. I have been on many of those, fortunately without have to conduct any investigations.
That said, Denny is absolutely correct that the sport needs a real investigative panel to deal with accidents such as this. In an ideal world, we would have a panel of experts, trained in investigative techniques. They would be located in different parts of the country, and each weekend, a "go team" would be on call to travel in the most timely manner possible to the scene and conduct an investigation, hold a hearing, and publish findings in a timely manner. The cost would be the obvious drawback to such a system, but it could well serve as a model for one that could work.
I am a member of the USEF Eventing Technical Committee, and I will tell you that we all agonize over the desisions that we must make concerning the sport. Too many time, though, I feel that I would need/would like more information to guide me in that process.
Finally, my heart goes out to all involved. Our thoughts are with you.
Tom Angle

[riderboy]

I wasn't going to post. We just got bac from a XC schooling where we experienced all that is good about the sport. Then this, how sad and tragic for Philip and all, but, I CANNOT BELIEVE they are not going to autopsy the horse. I'm not going to armchair quarterback anyone but jesus, that is hard to believe. As the saying goes you better get the facts or the facts are going to get you.

[kookicat]

Wow, another one? :(

My thoughts to PD and all of the horse's people. This just sucks.

[merrygoround]

This is the sort of thing I think the governing body should control. Were it a person who died, the cause of death would have been examined. It is not optional.

I cannot imagine that if the horse was insured, any insuror will pay out in these circumstances.

[Buffyblue]

My condolences to all involved on the loss of this amazing animal in such an unfortunate accident.

[Vitriolic]

Why can't eventing "simulate" cross country in a similar manner? Sure people would have knock downs that would require a calculator to add up, but at least they would fall down and off less.

Its called a franglible pin system and it cost $500+ per fence, not including extra parts, so money is a huge issue. Look it up on the USEA website.[/QUOTE]

I am aware of that, but it is not working. I am talking stadium type cups and standards. What is important, the look and tradition or stopping the deaths? I think eventers need to stop making excuses for the way things have become. The Grand National USED to be televised...

[AlterEgoME]

This is the sort of thing I think the governing body should control. Were it a person who died, the cause of death would have been examined. It is not optional.

I cannot imagine that if the horse was insured, any insuror will pay out in these circumstances.

The horse is dead. No foul play suspected. What else does the insurance company need? Maybe I am naive, but I think that is the reason I pay more to insure my event horses than I do to insure the hunters and the jumpers.

[RAyers]

... Too many time, though, I feel that I would need/would like more information to guide me in that process.
Finally, my heart goes out to all involved. Our thoughts are with you.
Tom Angle

And Tom, many of us WANT to help you get that information. Maybe we need to have some sort of meeting where those of who might be able to help derive the information can get with those of you who NEED the information and set up a system where things are done for free but there is a quality check as well.

Reed

[TB or not TB?]

Why can't the USEA create a safety panel of experts which includes no (or possibly just one) ULR?

[riderboy]

There needs to be mandated autopsies when this stuff happens, period. That really pisses me off. There's just no chance to find out what really happened and I don't care how obvious it seems. Sh*t. Irresponsible.

[zagafi]

Not sure about the FEI rules, but the USEF rules only apply to two falls FROM/OF THE SAME HORSE, and it is the HORSE that gets set down, not the rider.


Again, another effing STUPID rule...kinda hard for a horse to fall a 2nd time, when it's oh, say...DEAD.

At some point, I hope (an oft fruitless pastime, I know) that TPTB get their heads out of their collective asses and realize their stupid, knee-jerk reaction "safety" rules do NOTHING to promote or facilitate safety in any fashion whatsoever.

[asterix]

at what point do you think we will get to the magic moment?

You know, the moment at which the real PTB, the people who run the sport at the international and national level, say the same thing we do: THIS IS ENOUGH. THIS IS A CRISIS.

I want to know how many more lovely horses, the vast majority of whom have been well schooled, well prepped, and well ridden, are going to die before we get to that magic moment.

I was just reminiscing with my husband about his first exposure to eventing, Fair Hill in, hmm, 2005? We had a great time, and I remember setting off to watch xc day every year for that event with a sense of excitement and expectation.

No more.

I'm so sorry for all the people who loved this horse. I'm very angry that we will not learn what really happened. That is a real tragedy for the sport.

[One Star]

ahhh...gotta love youth

;)

[RAyers]

Again, another effing STUPID rule...kinda hard for a horse to fall a 2nd time, when it's oh, say...DEAD....



Hey, a dead horse is automatically moved down a few levels. What is so wrong with that?

I agree it is a classic blame the victim strategy.

Reed

[Gry2Yng]

at what point do you think we will get to the magic moment?

You know, the moment at which the real PTB, the people who run the sport at the international and national level, say the same thing we do: THIS IS ENOUGH. THIS IS A CRISIS.

I want to know how many more lovely horses, the vast majority of whom have been well schooled, well prepped, and well ridden, are going to die before we get to that magic moment.

I was just reminiscing with my husband about his first exposure to eventing, Fair Hill in, hmm, 2005? We had a great time, and I remember setting off to watch xc day every year for that event with a sense of excitement and expectation.

No more.

I'm so sorry for all the people who loved this horse. I'm very angry that we will not learn what really happened. That is a real tragedy for the sport.


The Magic Moment. Well titled. When will it come?

[NMPonyClubber]

I am aware of that, but it is not working. I am talking stadium type cups and standards. What is important, the look and tradition or stopping the deaths? I think eventers need to stop making excuses for the way things have become. The Grand National USED to be televised...

I guess my response would be that then they might as well eliminate the XC phase completely because it would change the ride, you would simple be doing stadium out side of the arena. All are welcome to disagree, but I think that size, shape and style created by a jump that does not fall down cannot be replicated by standards and cups. I agree it would make it safer, but it would eliminate the sport. I don't know if you have ever ridden xc, but Cross Country is a very different feeling ride from anything else, and a lot of that feeling I think comes from the image the jump creates. And at least my horse seems to know the difference and is noticeably more careful out XC Hopefully we can find a middle ground!!!!

[Therese]

a couple of comments...

Necropsy costs are between $250 and $1200 depending on if it is vet just looking at the body or an actual (pardon my graphic) cut open and see what really happened and run tests. Plus transport, plus what ever you want to do with the body afterward.

At least my insurance company requires a necropsy to determine cause of death, if you want any chance of a pay out.

[LLDM]

a couple of comments...

Necropsy costs are between $250 and $1200 depending on if it is vet just looking at the body or an actual (pardon my graphic) cut open and see what really happened and run tests. Plus transport, plus what ever you want to do with the body afterward.

At least my insurance company requires a necropsy to determine cause of death, if you want any chance of a pay out.

On the 2nd day of the Safety Summit last June, David O'Connor announced that the USEA and USEF would cover the cost of a necropsy for any horse who died at a recognized competition. This was to ensure that a necropsy was done on every horse who died. What they seem to have failed to do to make it a mandatory requirement - which can easily be done by writing it into the rules (which they already write). The whole idea was to ge to the root causes of death in order to make eventing safer for the horses. And, by extension, safer for the riders as well.

I am shocked and dismayed that owners may decline the necropsy. And I have no earthy idea why they would under the current climate. Diificult? Yes. Necessary? Absolutely.

SCFarm

[chukkerchild]

I just noticed this-- if you skim through the pictures from the 3*** at Jersey Fresh in the album that a previous poster linked to, you see A LOT of very awkward moments over those big fences, even with the well-known riders at the helm. Some of the pictures actually made me wince a bit-- long spots, hanging knees, etc-- was this water combination very difficult?? Maybe the courses are getting too technical to be able to get out of safely. Even the best riders and best horses can be faced with things that are just too hard-- the problem is, everyone is so good-- you need to challenge them so it's not a millisecond-by-millisecond difference between the top ten-- and yet. Maybe these courses are too much of a challenge even for our very best?

Here is the album:
http://www.dotphoto.com/GuestViewAlbum.asp?AID=5838072

[deltawave]

I am going to be really pissed if there is no necropsy done on this horse, after all the talk of making them mandatory, collecting the data, etc. :mad:

[DLee]

I, too, remember at the Safety Summit, David (I believe it was David) saying what a difficult time they often had getting cooperation of the horse's people, whether it be video, or permission to necropsy or whatever, to help them truly determine what happened. I found that strange, I couldn't imagine why. I guess it's true. :(

[Vitriolic]

I guess my response would be that then they might as well eliminate the XC phase completely because it would change the ride, you would simple be doing stadium out side of the arena. All are welcome to disagree, but I think that size, shape and style created by a jump that does not fall down cannot be replicated by standards and cups. I agree it would make it safer, but it would eliminate the sport. I don't know if you have ever ridden xc, but Cross Country is a very different feeling ride from anything else, and a lot of that feeling I think comes from the image the jump creates. And at least my horse seems to know the difference and is noticeably more careful out XC Hopefully we can find a middle ground!!!!

So eliminate the sport, before it is eliminated anyway. It will not last long at this rate so pick your poison.

Many years ago (20+) I evented, hunted (more recently), did Pony Club rallies, and huge hunter trials (4'6") (and a family member has done CCI) with no fear of dying or killing an animal. I would not do an advanced course today, nor would I sell another horse to an eventer. Who cares what your horse knows about the solidness of a fence? Right now he doesn't get to learn from his mistake if he hits one hard enough. It has taken many deaths to get me to this point, but like many others, I am beyond distraught about this carnage. It is too much. How many people won't even watch what we were once so excited to see on TV? :(

[BarbB]

chukkerchild, From those few photos, it appears that Bailey Wick was one of the horses that was NOT having a problem with the fences. Beautiful pics of him jumping well.

[chukkerchild]

chukkerchild, From those few photos, it appears that Bailey Wick was one of the horses that was NOT having a problem with the fences. Beautiful pics of him jumping well.

No, I know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that Bailey Wick was jumping poorly, I just meant that generally it looks like people were having some heart-in-throat moments, and good experienced riders too. Maybe these pictures indicate that the amount of people struggling with this course is too many, and the course needs to be simplified?

I don't think it's shameful, either, if people used to find that course easy and it now needs to be simpler. Stuff like that happens, horses change, riding styles change, and things that worked a few years ago suddenly don't work anymore-- so why not just ease up for a bit?

I totally respect that you all may not agree with this, it's just what came to mind when looking through these photos.

[JER]

On the 2nd day of the Safety Summit last June, David O'Connor announced that the USEA and USEF would cover the cost of a necropsy for any horse who died at a recognized competition. This was to ensure that a necropsy was done on every horse who died. What they seem to have failed to do to make it a mandatory requirement - which can easily be done by writing it into the rules (which they already write). The whole idea was to ge to the root causes of death in order to make eventing safer for the horses. And, by extension, safer for the riders as well.


So...

In his capacity as President of the USEF and ESPN-billed safety honcho, David O'Connor should have been on the phone to the horse's owners, explaining how important it was to the sport to do a necropsy on this horse.

Epic, epic fail.

[takethestage]

Epic, epic fail.

:yes:

[BarbB]

No, I know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that Bailey Wick was jumping poorly, I just meant that generally it looks like people were having some heart-in-throat moments, and good experienced riders too.

Oh, I agree. I was just commenting that a horse that was jumping well later died on course and some that appeared to be scrambling made it around.
I do agree, in general, that some courses are way too technical, I don't know if this is one of them. The incongruity of who made it around and who didn't just points out the difficulty of getting to the root cause of an epidemic.

[NMPonyClubber]

So an idea came to me when I was cleaning stalls (which is completely irrelevant) and I am completely unsure as to whether it is at all worth any discusion, but let me have it

We (Somebody) should print out (at least parts) of this discussion, and the other one on this same topic

We then should send them to Mr. David O'Conner, The USEA, and whomever else we deem worth of our comments

With a note attached that somehow politely says:

We all care and are ready to help move towards change and a solution, ARE YOU?
And
You are the only one who can REALLY instigate change, so would you please hurry up and do something!!!!!

[DLee]

So...

In his capacity as President of the USEF and ESPN-billed safety honcho, David O'Connor should have been on the phone to the horse's owners, explaining how important it was to the sport to do a necropsy on this horse.

Epic, epic fail.

I honestly don't see how this is David's fault that owners decide against a necropsy. Come on.

[archieflies]

"heels down, shoulders back, and kick on!!!"


Would you prefer heels up, shoulders hunched, and leg off? Just because it works in the hunter world? (See, I can play nasty too, dawg.) Really, which tactic is the most likely to get someone killed over a solid fence?

[vineyridge]

From what I understand competitors practically have to sign their lives away by waiver anyway in order to compete in USEF recognized events. Surely in the waivers, a necropsy requirement could be included.

That would make it a matter of contract between the organizers and the entrants and possibly the USEF.

There is no will and no leadership, as far as it appears to this member of the public.

[SevenDogs]

It is a failure of the USEF if they did not pass the rule that REQUIRES necropsy in these circumstances, particularly given their ability to rush through other/less useful rules.

[Buffyblue]

Would a necropsy be necessary if the injury sustained was obvious (I thought someone said he broke his neck and was PTS on the spot)? Just wondering . . .

[Bobthehorse]

I am aware of that, but it is not working. I am talking stadium type cups and standards. What is important, the look and tradition or stopping the deaths? I think eventers need to stop making excuses for the way things have become. The Grand National USED to be televised...

The Grand National is STILL televised. I watched it last year.

[Bobthehorse]

Would a necropsy be necessary if the injury sustained was obvious (I thought someone said he broke his neck and was PTS on the spot)? Just wondering . . .

I think everyone is wondering whether or not the broken neck was the cause of death, or he had an internal bleed shortly before the fence that caused him to fall and break his neck. Like many horses that have died on cross country over the years. What came first, the death or the broken neck?

[BarbB]

I honestly don't see how this is David's fault that owners decide against a necropsy. Come on.

Our "leadership" is not proactive. When leaders are apathetic it leaves others to pick at individual actions in total frustration.

A great strategy for deflecting any responsibility is to sit back and take no action, or take ineffective action and then counter any criticism as being nitpicking, which it often is, resorted to out of frustration and rage.

We have politicians and corporate CEOs who are well versed in this, why not the "leaders" of our sport?

I don't know if David stepped into this particular fray or not, I would be inclined to guess not, but that is really not the issue.
People who love this sport and are not part of the in-crowd are experiencing a growing sense of outrage, indignation, frustration.......

[Jumphigh83]

Would you prefer heels up, shoulders hunched, and leg off? Just because it works in the hunter world? (See, I can play nasty too, dawg.) Really, which tactic is the most likely to get someone killed over a solid fence?

Neither is "more" likely...how about FINDING A DISTANCE and RIDING it? It is the most confident ride at NOTHING that scares the CRAP out of me in eventing...and the jumps are UNFORGIVING. :(:( PS you can be a nasty as you want but name ONE horse that has DIED in the hunter ring in the PAST TEN YEARS??? Can eventing say the same thing???:confused::confused:

[Bobthehorse]

Neither is "more" likely...how about FINDING A DISTANCE and RIDING it? It is the most confident ride at NOTHING that scares the CRAP out of me in eventing...and the jumps are UNFORGIVING. :(:( PS you can be a nasty as you want but name ONE horse that has DIED in the hunter ring in the PAST TEN YEARS??? Can eventing say the same thing???:confused::confused:

I can name at least one jumper, does that count?

[SevenDogs]

Would a necropsy be necessary if the injury sustained was obvious (I thought someone said he broke his neck and was PTS on the spot)? Just wondering . . .

A necropsy could show any underlying conditions (as it did with Kingpin). Sometimes, when a horse does not even attempt to jump a fence, it is because he/she has suffered some sort of catastrophic event (heart or vascular related failure, etc.) prior to the fence. In that case, the fence is not actually the cause of death, although it may be a catalyst.

For some, the distinction is immaterial but I join the group that finds the difference distinct and worthy of different actions. If, for example, fence construction played a part, then more research into design and construction would be warranted. As with Kingpin, if catastrophic illness is the reason, then research into those areas is warranted.

That's why most people feel it is in the best interest of the horses to require necropsy and even more investigation into events such as this, so that we can learn from them and hopefully, reduce and/or prevent them in the future.

[lstevenson]

On the 2nd day of the Safety Summit last June, David O'Connor announced that the USEA and USEF would cover the cost of a necropsy for any horse who died at a recognized competition. This was to ensure that a necropsy was done on every horse who died. What they seem to have failed to do to make it a mandatory requirement - which can easily be done by writing it into the rules (which they already write). The whole idea was to ge to the root causes of death in order to make eventing safer for the horses. And, by extension, safer for the riders as well.

I am shocked and dismayed that owners may decline the necropsy. And I have no earthy idea why they would under the current climate. Diificult? Yes. Necessary? Absolutely.

SCFarm


I agree.

[JER]

I honestly don't see how this is David's fault that owners decide against a necropsy. Come on.

It's not David O'Connor's fault the owners declined to do a necropsy. I didn't say that.

It's a failure of the sport organization -- the NGB -- to stand by as the decision not to necropsy happens.

David O'Connor is the president of the NGB. He is a big voice in the eventing world.

David O'Connor stated repeatedly at the Safety Summit that the most important thing was the horse falls, that the horse falls had to be dealt with. David O'Connor repeatedly discussed the need for mandatory necropsies as well as offering USEF funding if the owner didn't want to pay.

Understanding what specifically happens in a horse fall is an indispensable part of the process of learning how to prevent them. So we need to necropsy a horse who falls and dies on XC.

If this is as important to the USEF President as he made it sound at the Safety Summit, then I don't know why he wouldn't personally intervene under these circumstances. He said it himself last year, what could be more important?

[Philosopher]

Would a necropsy be necessary if the injury sustained was obvious (I thought someone said he broke his neck and was PTS on the spot)? Just wondering . . .

Unless (as some have suggested) the horse had an aneurysm before the fence, which could be proven or disproven only by necropsy . . .

[Eventer55]

Would a necropsy be necessary if the injury sustained was obvious (I thought someone said he broke his neck and was PTS on the spot)? Just wondering . . .

In this case is there really ever an obvious injury? I mean what if the horse had a slow bleed out, missed his step and flipped. The rider could go through life thinking it was his fault, when really the horse was almost dead and not the rider's fault. PD's horse was still alive on the ground and yes he could have had a slow bleed. The broken neck could have been a secondary injury.

I had a friend who had a slow bleed and it took days for him to realize there was something really wrong. Personally, I would want to know for sure what the heck happened.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Buffyblue:

Would a necropsy be necessary if the injury sustained was obvious (I thought someone said he broke his neck and was PTS on the spot)? Just wondering . . .

Yes. In order to build an official scientific database of ALL deaths so that percentages can be accurate when used to access how to truly make the sport safer (conditioning, courses, etc.).

Bailey Wick may have actually had an aneurysm which causd the fall and he would have broken his neck during the fall.

[Jumphigh83]

I can name at least one jumper, does that count?

From flipping over a jump?? Probably not...aneurysm maybe, broken leg, maybe but total end over end flip ? I doubt it.....Event riders should be REQUIRED to complete a course of eight jumps (that fall down) finding at LEAST five distances before they can rip around a solid course at break neck speeds (pun INTENDED). I mostly would prefer heels up hunched forward and able to READ THE JUMPS ACCURATELY to heels down, shoulders back, kick on, DEAD:cry:! Is the speed designed to get the offending rider thrown clear? What about the horse?

[Janet]

It is a failure of the USEF if they did not pass the rule that REQUIRES necropsy in these circumstances, particularly given their ability to rush through other/less useful rules.
I can't find my rule change booklet, and they are no longer avaialble on line, but I THINK there was a rule change proposal to make necropsies mandatory. If so, I woinder WHY it did not pass.

[SevenDogs]

I can't find my rule change booklet, and they are no longer avaialble on line, but I THINK there was a rule change proposal to make necropsies mandatory. If so, I woinder WHY it did not pass.

Me too!!! I remember it and really thought it had passed... very unfortunate if it did not.

Is it possible that the quotes in the news articles are not correct? .... just asking....

[luise]

From flipping over a jump?? Probably not...aneurysm maybe, broken leg, maybe but total end over end flip ? I doubt it.....Event riders should be REQUIRED to complete a course of eight jumps (that fall down) finding at LEAST five distances before they can rip around a solid course at break neck speeds (pun INTENDED). I mostly would prefer heels up hunched forward and able to READ THE JUMPS ACCURATELY to heels down, shoulders back, kick on, DEAD:cry:! Is the speed designed to get the offending rider thrown clear? What about the horse?

Wow, I guess you don't know anything about eventing, do you? Did you know that there is a third phase called stadium? And that eventers work on all 3 phases to prepare for a competition? Eventers can see a distance. And you are kidding yourself if you think that they gallop around XC not ever seeing a distance. However, on XC we do want the horses to think for themselves, and not always rely on the rider to be picking the perfect spot. They learn how to jump out of stride.

[Luvinfoofy]

This is kind of touchy and I don't mean to be insensitive to the owners -- but what could bethe reason for denying a necropsy? With the state of our sport, I'd like to think every owner would agree to one-- we NEED to figure out what is going on.

It doesn't seem like it would make the accident any more traumatizing, maybe less, even, by explaining what happened - but I've never been in that situation. :confused:

I suppose the insurance could have covered accidents but not health problems... so maybe in that case you just wouldn't want to know if it was caused by something else?? But that doesn't even make sense with a horse of that caliber...why wouldn't you have a full policy?

Maybe it didn't even cross anyone's minds until later that it could have been something else?

I just can't think of a reason to say no- unless it is being mis-reported and we don't have the whole story. I *hope* that is the case.

[Twomanydawgs]

"Did you know that there is a third phase called stadium? And that eventers work on all 3 phases to prepare for a competition?" Ummm I believe JH is well aware there is a phase called stadium jumping and that is why she suggested that eventers have to complete a course finding at least 5 distances. From the stadium phases I've seen it is painfully obvious that most would fail.:no:

[Bobthehorse]

From flipping over a jump?? Probably not...aneurysm maybe, broken leg, maybe but total end over end flip ? I doubt it.....Event riders should be REQUIRED to complete a course of eight jumps (that fall down) finding at LEAST five distances before they can rip around a solid course at break neck speeds (pun INTENDED). I mostly would prefer heels up hunched forward and able to READ THE JUMPS ACCURATELY to heels down, shoulders back, kick on, DEAD:cry:! Is the speed designed to get the offending rider thrown clear? What about the horse?


Yes, he fell and shattered his shoulder because he took off long and got tangled in the poles and hit the ground on his shoulder and head. And there was one in the past 10 years that was impaled by a pole and died. So dont pretend any other horse sport is flawless.

And, are you aware that eventers DO complete a course of stadium jumps? Yes, its after the xc, but its not like they never jump a stadium course before they head out to a 3*. And only someone who has no knowledge of riding at speed can think that speed alone dictates risk. An event rider (or jockey, or field hunter, or chaser) knows how to ride at speed with the horse between their aids, increase in speed does not necessarily mean loss of control or balance. Just because you dont, doesnt mean its not possible.

[Bobthehorse]

"Did you know that there is a third phase called stadium? And that eventers work on all 3 phases to prepare for a competition?" Ummm I believe JH is well aware there is a phase called stadium jumping and that is why she suggested that eventers have to complete a course finding at least 5 distances. From the stadium phases I've seen it is painfully obvious that most would fail.:no:

Jeez, Im only a lowly Training rider, but even I can find more than 5 distances in a course. Besides, as most eventers would agree, its more dangerous on xc to have a horse that waits for the rider to dictate a spot than one who finds his own spots.

[JER]

Please don't let this thread get derailed into Jumphigh83's trajectory.

(There are some very important issues here that shouldn't get sidelined by inflammatory remarks that deserve no response.)

[SevenDogs]

Please don't let this thread get derailed into Jumphigh83's trajectory.

(There are some very important issues here that shouldn't get sidelined by inflammatory remarks that deserve no response.)

Agreed.

[GotSpots]

I have no inside knowledge about why or whether Baileywick's owners made their decision. But I would not fault them for it.

I know that we almost didn't agree to do a necropsy back when my horse was euthanized as a result of injuries sustained in a fall at a three star. We hesitated because (a) we just wanted to wake up from the horrid dream and have our horse standing in his stall - saying yes would be to cement the awful truth that he wasn't going to; (b) we couldn't stand the idea of someone carving into our very much beloved horse: it was bad enough seeing him lying on the floor of the medical center and being unable to get up and if we were going to lose him, we wanted to be able to bury him in his favorite pasture; and (c) we were so raw and numb from the day we couldn't find it in us to agree to anything - we certainly weren't thinking much beyond our grief and loss.

These are often not rational decisions. They are made fast, at a hideous time, and in a state of shock. We ended up saying yes (at a time when necropsies were not paid for by either the insurer or the USEA/USEF), because we didn't know whether we would have wished they'd done one later, and if we decided we didn't want to know, we could always not read the report. In hindsight, having had it done gave us some peace of mind that we'd made the right decision. But that was us. I completely understand - and respect - why someone would choose not to have one done.

Those poor people. My heart goes out to them, to Philip, his groom Emma, and to the entire True Prospect team.

[2boys]

Sorry if I derail anyone, but I can't help but jump in. So I guess in order for positive change to happen, there needs to be ownership placed somewhere. Most of the ownership up to this point has been on the committees, and leadership within eventing organizations. This seems quite valid. However, now it seems, there has come a point at which one almost seems negligent to even enter their horse in such competitions.

[Luvinfoofy]

I have no inside knowledge about why or whether Baileywick's owners made their decision. But I would not fault them for it.

I know that we almost didn't agree to do a necropsy back when my horse was euthanized as a result of injuries sustained in a fall at a three star. We hesitated because (a) we just wanted to wake up from the horrid dream and have our horse standing in his stall - saying yes would be to cement the awful truth that he wasn't going to; (b) we couldn't stand the idea of someone carving into our very much beloved horse: it was bad enough seeing him lying on the floor of the medical center and being unable to get up and if we were going to lose him, we wanted to be able to bury him in his favorite pasture; and (c) we were so raw and numb from the day we couldn't find it in us to agree to anything - we certainly weren't thinking much beyond our grief and loss.

These are often not rational decisions. They are made fast, at a hideous time, and in a state of shock. We ended up saying yes (at a time when necropsies were not paid for by either the insurer or the USEA/USEF), because we didn't know whether we would have wished they'd done one later, and if we decided we didn't want to know, we could always not read the report. In hindsight, having had it done gave us some peace of mind that we'd made the right decision. But that was us. I completely understand - and respect - why someone would choose not to have one done.

Those poor people. My heart goes out to them, to Philip, his groom Emma, and to the entire True Prospect team.


Thanks for sharing -- it is good to have some insight.. I can't imagine being in that position. Sorry to hear about your guy.

[Trixie]

As a 17-year old event about to move up to prelim, I routinely think about the cost of my sport on our equine partners. And every time I reach the same conclusion. There are worse things we can do to horses than kill them.

You know, this attitude scares me. Yeah, there are plenty of horses that don’t get well taken care of and have crappy lives. However, that’s a really crappy justification for anything else.

I love my sport, and I think unless you can offer a solution, you should not be reminding use of what we already know.

I disagree. I think asking questions facilitates discussion, which facilitates finding solutions.

Would you prefer heels up, shoulders hunched, and leg off? Just because it works in the hunter world? (See, I can play nasty too, dawg.) Really, which tactic is the most likely to get someone killed over a solid fence?

Eh, once again… if they’re riding correctly, H/J riders don’t have their heels up, shoulders hunched (I would know, it’s my bad habit and I get yelled at about it plenty), or leg off.

But that’s not relevant. Further, the hunter ring offers a margin of error on the rider's behalf, even at the upper levels. And riders are human. From what I'm seeing lately, and it seems some folks agree, there's not any real margin for error in upper level eventing. If there's an error, it's more likely to result in a fatality. And as is obvious here - even the very best make errors.

The question here isn’t what’s going on in the hunter ring. It’s “how do we fix what’s going on HERE?”

[maxxtrot]

A necropsy could show any underlying conditions (as it did with Kingpin). Sometimes, when a horse does not even attempt to jump a fence, it is because he/she has suffered some sort of catastrophic event (heart or vascular related failure, etc.) prior to the fence. In that case, the fence is not actually the cause of death, although it may be a catalyst.

For some, the distinction is immaterial but I join the group that finds the difference distinct and worthy of different actions. If, for example, fence construction played a part, then more research into design and construction would be warranted. As with Kingpin, if catastrophic illness is the reason, then research into those areas is warranted.

That's why most people feel it is in the best interest of the horses to require necropsy and even more investigation into events such as this, so that we can learn from them and hopefully, reduce and/or prevent them in the future.


this is exactly what needs to happen. if we do not find out what is causing all of the death's,we will never be able to fix what is wrong!

[2LaZ2race]

No, I know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that Bailey Wick was jumping poorly, I just meant that generally it looks like people were having some heart-in-throat moments, and good experienced riders too. Maybe these pictures indicate that the amount of people struggling with this course is too many, and the course needs to be simplified?

.

I agree, some of those pictures are seriously scary and it's obvious it's not just a bad picture of a moment in time, for some it's a whole series of messiness!

Did Polar Storm bank off the corner?
http://www.dotphoto.com/GuestViewImage.asp?AID=5838072&IID=216888239&INUM=1&ICT=60&IPP=72

picture 51 of 60

[Fairview Horse Center]

I agree that it is a horroble thing to have to have a necropsy done on a very loved animal (or human). We had one done on one of the boarders horses, and I literally BEGGED the veterinarians to leave his leg attached to his body, even if just by a few tissues. Thankfully, they accommodated us, as we just couldn't deal with the thought of a chopped up friend.

The expense really is not an issue. A vet or Vet hospital may charge $1200 for a complete necropsy, but the state run Ag departments (in VA, that is where they process Coggins Tests) will do them, including tissue sampling) for under $100.

The necropsy is only the hope to get the sport out from under the microscope for a specific death.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Question. Are there fewer deaths (%) since the short format became standard? Did we make the sport safer?

[Janet]

Me too!!! I remember it and really thought it had passed... very unfortunate if it did not.

Is it possible that the quotes in the news articles are not correct? .... just asking....
Well, I did a search on the current eventing rules, and on the two files listing the rule changes for 2010 (actually Dec 1 2009) and didn't find anything.

[SevenDogs]

Well, I did a search on the current eventing rules, and on the two files listing the rule changes for 2010 (actually Dec 1 2009) and didn't find anything.

Not good. :no:

[archieflies]

I just noticed this-- if you skim through the pictures from the 3*** at Jersey Fresh in the album that a previous poster linked to, you see A LOT of very awkward moments over those big fences, even with the well-known riders at the helm. Some of the pictures actually made me wince a bit-- long spots, hanging knees, etc-- was this water combination very difficult??

I saw the same thing. Actually, I saw that the "big names" looked a LOT WORSE than those who I didn't recognize. Not just twisting horses and hanging knees, but a lot of very unbalanced riding. :no: