What are the things that blew up when riders fell at Badminton?

[Couture TB]

Ok so I just watched the live feed, and maybe I have been out of eventing for to long, but what were the things that blew up on the riders safety vest areas like rafts (bad example) when they came off?

[JER]

Life jackets, in case you get a ducking.

And perhaps not as obvious but also very real -- egos also blow up and deflate as a result of falls at Badminton.

:lol:

But that garment you saw was the Point Two Air Jacket, discussed here (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=203538) previously.

[Doodlebug1]

LOL!! They are a new concept of body protector - taken from motorcycle safety gear.

There is a thread a little way down the page that talks about the pros/cons of these. Anecdotally they seem to be working well - certainly the riders seem to be using them - and it takes a lot to get the top riders to adopt these things sometimes so there must be some value...

[RAyers]

LOL!! They are a new concept of body protector - taken from motorcycle safety gear.

There is a thread a little way down the page that talks about the pros/cons of these. Anecdotally they seem to be working well - certainly the riders seem to be using them - and it takes a lot to get the top riders to adopt these things sometimes so there must be some value...

Yes, it is called "FREEBIES" and advertising income. I find that top riders (in many sports, not just horses) rarely have a full understanding what they claim is the next best thing in technology and thus their decisions are not made on a factual basis. I would not hold a lot of faith in "and it takes a lot to get the top riders to adopt these things sometimes so there must be some value..." so long as enough money is offered.

Reed

[JER]

Yes, it is called "FREEBIES" and advertising income. I find that top riders (in many sports, not just horses) rarely have a full understanding what they claim is the next best thing in technology and thus their decisions are not made on a factual basis. I would not hold a lot of faith in "and it takes a lot to get the top riders to adopt these things sometimes so there must be some value..." so long as enough money is offered.


Agreed.

It's very hard for me to see what this garment gives you besides an additional 1.5 kg of weight. Seeing it inflate today made me want to have a closer look at the neck protection, which I couldn't see at all. I expected something different and I thought this might be the one area in which the product has some value.

If the one fall rule was not in effect, I would see a slight advantage with this garment in terms of being able to hop back up and complete -- you might feel the impact a little less. But now you can't get back on and anyway, the air vest is just a one-off in terms of use. Might be awkward getting back on while in blow-up mode too (but it deflates after 20 sec).

Blugal is at Badminton -- maybe she'll take a look at it in the trade stands and give a report.

[Coppers mom]

Reading the other thread, I don't see why everyone seems to be so against them? :confused:

Think about it, what are the majority of the falls? Just plain old falls, not rotational ones. Why are people saying that, basically, the vests aren't good enough when they do offer some protection during more common falls? Sure, it'd be nice to have a vest that would cover you during a rotational fall, but there's not much that's going to protect you from a 1,200 pound animal crashing down at this point in time. Why not be happy that there are steps being made, rather than complaining that it's not good enough, or dismissing it because you think the ULR's are only wearing them because they're free?

I don't know, I just got a really negative vibe from this and the other thread, and was wondering if someone could explain it to me.

[JER]

Reading the other thread, I don't see why everyone seems to be so against them? :confused:

Because the air vest will not protect you from what kills you in this sport. It may offer additional impact protection to the standard certified body protector for minor falls. But does it offer protection from axial loading or torsional loading injuries? Probably not, although I'd have to see the neck protection closer up (I didn't see anything significant on the video).

Does it offer protection from massive crush injuries? Absolutely not.

Given that what kills you in eventing is either massive crush injuries to the chest or head injuries or a combination thereof, this device isn't going to save your life. Especially not if you are in a rotational fall in which you are not separated from your horse -- it won't even deploy in that case.

Think about it, what are the majority of the falls? Just plain old falls, not rotational ones. Why are people saying that, basically, the vests aren't good enough when they do offer some protection during more common falls?

The air jacket must be worn over a Beta-approved body protector. Is the additional protection they offer a significant step up?

Sure, it'd be nice to have a vest that would cover you during a rotational fall, but there's not much that's going to protect you from a 1,200 pound animal crashing down at this point in time.

That product exists. It's called the WoofWear EXO. BNRs have resisted using it because it weighs 8.3 lbs, which is about 1.1 lbs more than a traditional body protector plus the air jacket. Which is exactly the point Reed was making. Perhaps these riders aren't good at math.

Why not be happy that there are steps being made, rather than complaining that it's not good enough, or dismissing it because you think the ULR's are only wearing them because they're free?

I'm happy steps are being taken. I'm not so happy that there's not much engineering or science info on the air vest. I know the technology is borrowed from motorcycle crashes but motorcycle crashes differ in several very significant ways from XC falls. There are specific issues to address in XC rider falls, the rotational fall issue bar far the most serious of them. This device does not address that issue at all.

I don't know, I just got a really negative vibe from this and the other thread, and was wondering if someone could explain it to me.

I'm an EMT. I love to see new innovations in safety. But I want to see real safety, not the appearance of safety. Right now in eventing, we have a serious problem with rider deaths and serious, life-threatening injuries and we need to address this problem specifically.

Many (nearly all) of the riders who have been killed or seriously injured (think Laine Ashker) in rotational falls would probably have been saved or had non-life-threatening injuries had they been wearing an EXO. The air jacket wouldn't have helped them at all.

[Carol Ames]

Air bags; great idea! I suggested this several years ago.:yes: but, had no:no: idea how to patent , or protect it. :confused: it.

[Carol Ames]

If it will protect from broken ribs, punctured lungs:eek:and broken collar bones, I am all for it!:yes:

[Blugal]

Well, funnily enough, I saw at least one rider who'd been eliminated for a fall, riding her horse back to the stables at a brisk trot. So much for 'not allowing them to remount'.

[Blugal]

When inflated, it does seem like a huge life-jacket. In fact, it reminds me of the yellow ones they show you on your pre-flight safety talk! ;) The behind-the-neck inflation is quite big. Overall my impression is that it might cradle your neck, and the other inflation would probably reduce your bruising impact. I don't know how violently it inflates, nor how the behind-the-neck inflation interacts with the rider's helmet & shoulder pads.

[JER]

It costs £400.00! (http://www.justequine.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=PROAIR) :eek::eek:

(Replacement CO2 canisters are £12.50. Not so bad when you dismount without unhooking.)

I wonder if any of those riders today paid for their air jackets.

I'm curious about the 'rigidity' promised by the manufacturer and also (like Blugal) possible interactions with other equipment, like the helmet. Fit does not seem to be a huge concern as it's just S, M, L.

I do like the idea of neck protection but wonder if and how it could protect from axial loading injuries (hitting your head and the force traveling down your spinal column) as they occur in riding falls.

Good marketing plan to hand these out like candy. But marketing is not safety.

[MelodyMaker]

Firstly let me say I like this idea....

Until I got to the bottom of the Q&A page on the link posted by JER...

Q:Can I compete in this vest?
A: Yes, as long as you wear it over the top of an approved body protector.

So clearly its not an approved protector in itself, which to me means an AWFUL lot of bulk to carry around. I effect, two body protectors to be worn!

[Stay Gold]

If it will protect from broken ribs, punctured lungsand broken collar bones, I am all for it!

Agreed :)

Esp. since I'm now 6 months post-op from getting a plate and screws inserted into my shoulder to repair a broken collarbone.... and the damned thing STILL hasn't healed. Let's not get into how cranky I am about missing 6 months of saddle time and work, and am now facing surgery #2 with a bone graft from my hip.... I watched the product video at their website... looks like it would cushion the collarbone

[riderboy]

I think that JER and others have a valid point that the airbag won't protect you from a rotational fall /crush injury but it's a start. Perhaps combined wit a lighter exoskeleton or whatever but in my mind, keep plugging on airbags, antigravity belts or molded jello XC jumps. I'm not trying to be a smarta** but at this point I'm in favor of anything and everything. If necessity is the mother of invention then maybe this is the start of a promising albeit currently insufficient technology.

[medical mike]

protect from C-spine axial load injuries.

protect against collar bone injuries.

Collar bone injuries occur from Axial load either through direct contact with the shoulder
or
if the arm is in a "bench press position" when the hand contacts the ground, it can compress the shoulder blade, transmitting the load through the collar bone. This case is rather rare.

If you are looking at collar bone protection, you have to wear what amounts to a "shoulder cup", like the motocross racers use.

Yes, VERY good marketing.....

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

[Doodlebug1]

Yes, it is called "FREEBIES" and advertising income.

Reed

With respect, I disagree. Do you remember those improved skull caps which really did prove to reduce injuries? They were offered to all and sundry. How many riders took up the offer? One. Ruth Edge. Does she still wear one? No.

The Exo was also offered to many riders - as you say, it's basic marketing practice. It wasn't taken up.

I don't think anything will save you from a rotational fall and resulting crush, so that argument is fairly academic.

BETA (British Equest Trade Assoc) have not YET approved them which is why they are worn with approved body protectors, but I would expect them to be approved soon (if not, you're right, there probably isn't much point).

I don't have one £400 is quite a lot!! but I have seen them demo'd and they're quite impressive.

I think they offer more protection than current protectors, but not necessarily better protection. This is because they are (when unfilled) so unobtrusive they can reach further down your coccyx and more around your neck. As far as I can see, that can only be a good thing.