Terminology Question - Open Hip Angle

[tlw]

So, I keep hearing: "open your hip angle." Now I always thought that meant sit more upright (the "angle" being 180 degrees when standing straight and 90 degrees if bent double at the waist at ninety degrees). Now I come to find out that it really means open my hips like you do when you spread a turkey's legs to stuff it at Thanksgiving or like pulling a wish bone. Did any of you think like this or am I the only one who never got it? The reason I'm curious is that it was a HUGE epiphany for me and probably the single most effective change to my riding I've ever experienced. I'm more secure, I can actually use my lower leg effectively and my girl is happy that I'm finally giving clear leg aids. Maybe other folks are out there trying to sit up straight when they should be spreading wide. Just thought I'd pass this little tidbit along. Please no snickering if I'm the only one out here who didn't understand this. :winkgrin:

[Carol Ames]

It also means " allow your leg to drop down":yes:

[evans36]

I have always been under the impression that "open your hip angle" means just that - think about the angle made between your torso and your thigh, and make it bigger. That can either happen by moving your torso back, or by letting your leg drop downward.

[Long Spot]

Evans is correct.

[tlw]

Evans36: that's a better way of saying what I always thought it meant. Perhaps the latest person who told me to open my hip angle has the terminology wrong but by getting me to point my toes out a bit has allowed my weight to sink into my heels and my calves to actually have contact with my girl's barrel (you see I always rode with my feet parallel to my horse's side). So, I'm still confused on the terminology but the end result is super!

[medical mike]

So both of you are correct.

It is up to the instructor to specify. Each has specific motor patterns and outcomes attached to it.

Once you start talking about heels down and toes out, you are talking about a bigger set of small problems than simply "opening up your hip angle". Lump them into "muscle imbalances" or if you prefer "weakness".

To that my standard reply....
"Dropping your weight in your heels disrupts the normal timing mechanism the body uses to maintain stability. Don't focus on getting your weight into your heels, let your ankle do what it wants."

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

[tlw]

Medical Mike: A really good point. My whole athletic life has been spent on my toes: running, tennis, skiing, etc. and now I need to keep m weight in my heels. Turning out my toes a bit really does seem to help keep my weight in my heels. And, it really helps me with getting my leg, whatever other minor stability problem this can cause, more on the horse. For me, it seems to be a plus rather than a minus.

My original post had to do with the difference in terminology and why we amateurs don't always "connect the dots." Good points all though. Thanks.

[Gry2Yng]

So both of you are correct.



To that my standard reply....
"Dropping your weight in your heels disrupts the normal timing mechanism the body uses to maintain stability. Don't focus on getting your weight into your heels, let your ankle do what it wants."

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

Interesting. I spend a lot of time with my intermediate students trying to get them to STOP jamming their heel down because I have always thought this makes them stiff.

As far as the "toe in" or "toe out" thing...the ladies who ride dressage/eventers seem to have more of a problem with keeping their toes to straight out in front of them than the strict hunter/jumper girls.

I was a hunter/jumper girl as a youth and I keep my toes at a 45 degree-ish angle for jumping. I had to learn to decrease the angle of my toe for dressage when I became an eventer.

As far as "hip angle", I use that phrase when I mean the angle that your hip creates between your upper body and your thigh. I say "ride like a french whore" (an expression stolen from Jim Graham) when I mean stop gripping with your knees.

[evans36]

He knows what he is talking about. I was having knee problems due to an injury and he worked with me about the heel issue - it really helped my knee pain when I stopped jamming my heel down and let the ankle "pop" up and down as it wants to. I think another way to say "ride like a french whore" (AWESOME expression) is to think about turning your knee so that the inside is against the saddle. I've found that thinking about knee/upper leg position and getting that right will sort the toe out.

[Finn'sMom]

I say "ride like a french whore" (an expression stolen from Jim Graham) when I mean stop gripping with your knees.

Ooh la la!

[RunForIt]

Medical Mike: A really good point. My whole athletic life has been spent on my toes: running, tennis, skiing, etc. and now I need to keep m weight in my heels. Turning out my toes a bit really does seem to help keep my weight in my heels. And, it really helps me with getting my leg, whatever other minor stability problem this can cause, more on the horse. For me, it seems to be a plus rather than a minus.

My original post had to do with the difference in terminology and why we amateurs don't always "connect the dots." Good points all though. Thanks.

same for me - I have a horrid time with my right foot due to longtime running, a huge bunion behind my big toe which practically points due right, no support from whatever muscle and tendon that runs behind my ankle from a basketball injury, they do NOTHING to stop my foot from rolling over to the outside. I naturally toe in on the right, tend to still run up on the front of my foot even at 59, plus the right foot is my strike off foot ...its almost impossible for me to keep the stirrup under the ball of my right foot. Instead it creeps to "home". Then my ankle does seem to "do its job" and I can keep my hip angle open, and have contact with my lower leg. However, its not a pretty sight...sigh.

I've thought so often, Medical Mike, that I would love to have you try to figure out how to deal with my physical imbalances...alas you're way too far from GA! :cool:

[medical mike]

Thank you all for the praise. Just remember that I'm only explaining what the science shows me...I can't make the changes, so you all deserve the credit.

TLW,
Trouble is that it is not a minor stability problem. It disrupts the entire system and in the female the problem is magnified.

If you are looking for a "why", please view in the the education section of the website address below "A technical discussion of rider stablity" in whole (front page) or bit parts (equestrian sports medicine section).


RunForIt.....
View that video, then the four "Basic Four" strengthening exercises. Make the modifications according to the stability video and use the strengthening exercises a month steady. If that does not help, then perhaps a clinic?

I have partnered with Danny Warrington for a truly unique (preferrable) two day clinic. You can see that under the "equicision clinic" link.

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

[vineyridge]

For me, the epiphany came when I was told that the real test isn't heels down but toes up. That keeps the ankle loose and flexed as opposed to jammed down and inflexible.

[billiebob]

OP, you're not alone. I can see when someone needs to open/close their hip angle. I can feel it when I jump well (as infrequently as that happens :lol:). But can I explain it to my little kiddie students well? NOOOOOOO.

[EqTrainer]

You can open your hip both laterally and longitudinally, if that terminology helps. Sideways and front to back, as it were.

The easiest way to show people this is to have them stand in the stirrups at a halt (I call this vertical position) and have them push their hip flexors OPEN until they are neatly stuck up there and feel like they cannot be dislodged. Not as easy as it sounds ;) until you truly open them, you will sit down/fall down/fall forward. It's worth practicing. To show them how to close them, again at a halt, fold down like an ironing board. Butt BACK hands forward on the horses crest.

It also teaches people to not fall down over their horses neck when they jump :)

Watch that the lower leg stays UNDER the body. This is where the not pushing down into your ankle to mimic a true heel down position becomes important. If the student is doing that, they cannot open and close their hip angle properly.

Getting over the "heels down" idea, for the sake of itself, is so important. FWIW, my heels go down like a freak show when my leg is *correct* from the hip. It's not that they won't be down.. it's that they will be down as much as that persons anatomy allows, and as much as they need to be without being stiff.

To open them laterally (side to side) the exercise of pulling the entire leg off the horse from the hip is invaluable. Not only do most horses take a big sigh of relief (and finally get to take a deep, full breath) but the rider learns that "holding on" with the leg is counterproductive (unless your horse is playing up, then by all means, HOLD ON w/that leg!) when they feel the horse soften and round up underneath them. THIS is where the stability of the lower leg is created, because the rider is now evening up the work between the inner thigh adductors and the outer muscles of the leg. Most people overuse the inside of the leg and have no idea how to use the outside. This teaches them. Suddenly you have a heels down, stable leg that is not squishing the horse and feels good, albeit hard in a "you're working isometrically now!" way. This is how people ride who have quiet legs. The french whore part is a stage you go thru <LOL> before you learn to truly stabilize the leg. It must be said that most people never get past that stage, but it is so much more effective than the jammed down heels stage that it's not a tragedy <LOL>

[KayBee]

Interesting. I spend a lot of time with my intermediate students trying to get them to STOP jamming their heel down because I have always thought this makes them stiff.

The key to that, for me, was when my instructor told me to think of my ankles as springs/shock absorbers. They shouldn't be in a static, locked (jammed)-down position. My heels go down further, for example, at the top of my post, and rise slightly on the "down."

Opening the hip angle to me always meant "knees further apart," but I have a ballet background. What my instructor means by "opening the hip angle" is, however, sitting up/sitting back (not folding forward towards your knees).

[Carol Ames]

:mad: just lost another post:mad:; bear with me as I attempt to recreate it:yes:

Think of this more as motion:yes:, than a static :no:position ; with each stride, one side of the horses' back rises, then falls, alternating with the other side; allow your thigh/ knee to swing up , closing the hip, then allowing it to drop/ open; this should require no muscular:yes: effort on your part, only "allowing, ie., . release; find someone to do Centered Riding:;)-) bodywork with you. This should NOT cause pain; You are not forcing your body to HOLD a position, but releasing it to allow the horse to move it;more of passive motion than exercising your hip flexors isometrically, but allowing your hip to move with the horse ;)