Qualified to say "trainer"??

[Quest52]

I recently went to a large horse fair and saw the below rider and horse and their group. I was wondering if others could weigh in on the video. I see many inconsistencies (myself), but would really like others input. This person had a booth at the fair with their training group, and I really (personally) did not see the quality I would ever want in a trainer. BUT this is why I'm posting this here, I want others input.

thanks so much!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X78uEaKO04I
:confused:

[Ambrey]

Did she ever claim to be a dressage trainer? That doesn't look like dressage to me :confused: It looks more like something Spanish or Mexican/South American.

Drop dead gorgeous horse, though!

[Quest52]

yes.. like I said... there was a booth at the show. They have a website and everything for the training brigade.
I just see things that alarmed me when I saw this particular horse and rider combo (and the looked beyond at the fair and on the other videos on youtube)
I'm just hoping someone here knows more of something?

[indyblue]

What alarms you? It all looks harmless enough and she looks like shes having fun.Horse looks happy but maybe a little confused at times.Beautiful horse.

[angel]

Interesting video. The horse is actually responding very well to the rider. I get the feeling that part of the disconnect is due to them altering the speed of the video to fit the music. The thing that distracted me was the way the rider was bouncing from side to side so much. If that horse spooked, she'd be off in a heartbeat. Also, found the setting rather strange, consider that the rider was in a western saddle, and all the others in the ring were also in western saddles.

[slc2]

these threads do intend to increase seasonally.

[merrygoround]

There are no qualifications for the title of trainer, anyone can hang out a sign, or pass out cards calling themselves a trainer.

What's more -They do!.

"Caveat emptor" :)

[mvp]

Absolutely qualified to say "trainer" as horse training is entirely unregulated in this country.

You imply that you have access to some universal set of standards that makes this rider and her horse "clearly" not the result of decent, professional training.

I wouldn't know from the video whether this person should be a pro or not. I have seen worse from people in other settings, different color horses and different costumes and tack.

[hossluva]

I'd be interested to know whether she personally trained the horse to move like that or if she was just staying on a horse that was trained to move like that. Huge difference there...

I don't know that this was supposed to be a sale video, but if so, I'd have tidied up a bit. The hair was a distraction, hers more so than the horses! The tack was an intriguing combo too.

Not an easy horse to post to - there's some definite hang time... I wouldn't necessarily fault the discretionary diagnal usage. :winkgrin:

I'd definitely need to see more and ask questions before hiring her as a trainer...

[Surviving the Dramas]

Uhhh.... yeah...

No thanks.

I agree with some one previous to me. Is she claiming to be dressage? Or a hybrid of some form?

He appears to be schooling "tricks" far higher than his general level of training

[slc2]

It looks lke smeone trained the horse to do a couple tricks and she is riding around on him. The quality of the riding isn't anything to brag about, the horse is very off balance and irregular, especially at the 'extended trot', but she looks like she is having fun, and no ducks are getting smothered, and it's not a dressage show, it's a little western class at what looks like a 4h or county fair show, so I can't exactly say I'm busy penning a letter of complaint to the FEI over this.

[AndalusianMom]

Are you kidding? The poor horse was doing Spanish walk alternating with trot extension attempts in front, while trotting or trying to canter behind, all the while with the hind legs trailing. It's not dressage, oh no. Iberian breeds can have a disconnect between their movement in front and that behind, which a GOOD trainer works to correct. In trot the front and hind legs need to keep the same rhythm, which we don't see in that video till she starts to post--and that tells you something else, doesn't it? Rhythm is right at the top of the dressage training scale--and that horse did not have it.
The challenge with many Iberian horses is to get them to actually cover ground when they move, instead of a lot of front end movement that goes nowhere. If the trainer doesn't know any better, she'll think the horse is doing good work, and is just "fancy" in front.

[Andalucian]

I'm not familiar with the woman in the video, but I am familiar with the guy who put the video up and with his training facility. He does do classical dressage training... but that's not what's intended with what's in this video (and the other one posted from the Midwest Horse Fair). It's "Dancing Horse" stuff. Sometimes it has basis in classical dressage, but it's somewhat its own discipline with a big following all its own. There are actual classes and exhibitions and such for the "dancing horses." It's not all that different from what you'd see at some of these dinner theater riding productions, it's just been developed into a sort of art form. The people who train dancing horses are often quite skilled at what they do. No, they aren't necessarily individuals you'd want to hire to train your competitive dressage horse (unless they do that as well; some do, some don't), but they likely wouldn't want to hire a competitive dressage trainer to train their dancing horse, either. It's just a somewhat different world.

[Carol O]

She makes you look!

She's so lucky, lucky...

I'm going to have that song stuck in my head all day...

Looks like they are having fun. No crime there.

[rabicon]

Anyone can call themselves a trainer. I see nothing wrong with the horse or rider. Yea, shes a little bouncey but that horse does have some air time in the movements and the horse looks a little confused at times but nothing horrible. The horse seems happy and knows some tricks so more power to them.

[Ambrey]

It's "Dancing Horse" stuff. Sometimes it has basis in classical dressage, but it's somewhat its own discipline with a big following all its own. There are actual classes and exhibitions and such for the "dancing horses."

Yeah, that's what I thought. Some of the more refined Charro riders (Mexican "dancing horses") do similar stuff, and that's what it looked like to me :) Most people don't ride dressage in a western saddle ;) (some do, though!).

[goeslikestink]

i see someone riding a neddy -- haha
with out a hat good exsample that is if one was a trianer
here matie's is quick lesson in how to ride and hope your brains stay intack haha

[bort84]

I don't know why it's surprising to find somebody less than qualified calling themselves a trainer. One reason I never really got interested in dressage growing up was because most of the people I saw that called themselves "dressage" trainers/riders couldn't ride their way out of a paper bag, so I thought it was mostly a joke - people riding poorly trained hunter-type horses in dressage tack. I was in a rather sad area for dressage at the time. I could see that somewhere there were good dressage riders and always loved watching the international competitions, but I had never seen a good example near me.

Anyone can call themselves a trainer, and in smaller horse poor areas, you find a LOT of hacks out there. Not surprising at all... How is a beginner to know the difference?

[FancyFree]

How is a beginner to know the difference?

Sadly they can't. There was a woman at my former stables who called herself a trainer. She actually could not ride to save her life. I thank my lucky stars she wasn't there when I started riding. She'd advertise by those coupons you get in the mail. She would get a ton of students. She then would make big money by selling her students horses that she picked up at auction. She'd buy one for say $500 then turn around and sell it for $5000. Her students would then begin to meet other boarders, learn more about horses and finally realize how scammed they had been. They'd always move on to a real trainer. But she always had new ones coming in. She has a horrible reputation but she doesn't care.

It's too bad they don't have a system here like they do in Germany. They actually go to school and get certified. Not that that is any guarantee that you'll get a great trainer, but it's reassuring that they do have actual experience. They didn't just wake up one morning and say "Today I will be a trainer!" :lol:

[Dressage Art]

There are many dressage "trainers" who never even rode above 1st level. Anybody can call themselves a "dressage trainer" since there is no exams to pass and no scores to earn for that title. (unlike for the dressage judging)

It depends what those trainers will attempt to do. If they are working with green riders and green horses = that is quite appropriate, since there are so many things that a rider needs to learn way before going above Training Level. Actually, a quality Training Level dressage trainer is very important in developing both green riders and horses, some of them are worth their weight in gold... even if they never rode above 1st level... they are good with kids, they can gently start a young horse, they can work with problem horses and timid riders thru their issues... I admire this kind of trainers.

However, if "trainers" will attempt to show off unbalanced trick riding with broken trot diagonals and rhythm - that is not dressage but just a trick riding. There is a market for trick riding and it's quite amusing to watch in circuses. But it will not score much in the dressage ring and it will not earn a phrase from classical masters either.

[Quest52]

Sorry.... I overslept some and am just getting back to this.

1.- I don't pretend to be some rules guru that says XYZ = a trainer, but that video makes my eyes hurt. I know that anyone CAN do it, but is it right for someone that is in a video as such to post that they are then? Like I said, I was confused to see their booth later on that day.

2.- The horse does not look happy to me at all in the video. He looks confused and not bent and, like the other above poster pointed out, doing one thing int he front and one in the back.

3.- She uses her whip heavily in the video, but hides it from the camera.


I guess I posted to video too soon before I did some sloothing. After looking things up on this "training group" and seeing further pictures and videos and such, it just seems like an act.

I know they are somewhere in my area and I guess I'll just steer clear of them, because it seems as though there isn't much knowledge and there is some pretty rough treatment. (as I found out today by PM)

[cu.at.x]

Does not look like a harmonious ride to me. :no:

[Quest52]

I just looked at the video another time... and there were posted comments that have now been deleted???
Was that anyone??

[goeslikestink]

why was it you and your looking for business wont happen advertiseing not allow however way you plan it

[Quest52]

what???
I'm confused by your post.
This is NOT me.... far from it.
This was just created to get the ball rolling on some discussion.
Learned some great things though about trick horses and how they are not really dressage (though, truth be told, then confuses me because there are plenty Lusitanos and Andalusians etc. attempting to do dressage now... so whats that? Just multiple uses?)

[Ambrey]

Trick training isn't part of a breed, it's part of the training.

Trick training, Charro, horse dancing, etc. are not dressage, but Andalusian and Lusitano horses have been doing dressage forever (not "attempting," there are horses of these breeds competing at the highest levels).

[indyblue]

what???
I'm confused by your post.
This is NOT me.... far from it.
This was just created to get the ball rolling on some discussion.
Learned some great things though about trick horses and how they are not really dressage (though, truth be told, then confuses me because there are plenty Lusitanos and Andalusians etc. attempting to do dressage now... so whats that? Just multiple uses?)

There are and have been for a very long time Lusitanos and Andalusians
doing dressage.Multiple uses? What do you mean by that?
I would like to also say that there are plenty of ways to get the ball rolling on a discussion without bringing some poor womans reputation into it.Especially as she isnt a dressage trainer at all which is where you think she is lacking.

[slc2]

I'd prefer what indy says too.

The video is a little funny in a way, though. It looks a little like 'The Best Horse in All Europe' video, where the big warmblood passages out of the starting gate at the race track.

So do we just say oh well or shout about it. Well some people are going to feel they need to shout about it.

Because if a rider is riding technically incorrectly, with an obviously incorrect seat and incorrect balance of the horse, uneven strides and the horse falling onto his forehand, most people won't ever see that. What they will see is a pretty palomino doing what look like 'cool tricks', and a lot of people will think, 'I wanna do that too'. And there are going to be people who CAN see that and will feel they need to prevent others from getting hooked up with someone who won't teach them properly.

To be fair, I really feel the people who are saying there is something really heinous going on in that video, or that the horse looks 'unhappy' or 'unharmonious' are 'over-seeing'. I don't believe the horse looks MISERABLE, but I don't think most incorrect dressage performances actually make horses MISERABLE. They're just incorrect. MOST horses are ridden incorrectly to some degree and they aren't staying up nights and drinking trying to forget it.

There are those that feel having a horse work chronically off balance, does, in fact, lead to much more wear and tear on their forelegs, but the majority of horses are so on the forehand that if that were really strictly the case, about 99% of the horses in the USA would be dead lame.

What I think is that if one is working a horse and trying to do piaffe and passage and extended trots, that's hard work, and to avoid unnecessary wear and tear, the horse DOES need to be balanced. But I also would be very careful to not do those things on just any footing, etc, etc.

The extended trot, piaffe and passage done here are being done as 'tricks', without all the basic qualities, but actually the horse looks like he's quietly doing not-so-bad a job with the piaffe, much as a school horse would do with a student, not perfect, but not ending the world.

The piaffe, I think, takes far less skill to 'produce' in a horse that's already been trained to do it consistently.

He's in place, and the lack of suspension means it's deceptively 'easy' to sit on. Where it starts to look a little off is the passage-like gait and the extended trot.

The horse isn't gymnasticized or balanced or taking even strides. He's most off balance with the extended trot.

But MISERABLE?? No, I don't think so.

In fact, I think the horse looks like a very, very tolerant saintly sort who just clocks along no matter who is riding him. He always seems to have his ears forward and always seems pleasant and kind. He looks like 'Old Reliable'. In a way, the video is a very nice tribute to a very, very kind horse.

There are two points of view we see all the time on this bb about this.

One is that a professional, who gets paid money to teach, by riding around doing 'advanced' things poorly in front of people who can't tell the difference, one is being dishonest and taking advantage of people's ignorance, most likely, to make money training them.

The people are unlikely to progress properly, and may even harm their horses or in extremes, get hurt themselves, but at the very least will be learning incorrectly, because people who ride incorrectly can't teach people to do things correctly. There is also the little matter of money. Taking naive people's money for poor quality, incorrect instruction is not ethical.

The other point of view is let the person alone, they aren't THAT bad, and aren't really harming anyone. Everyone deserves to try to make a living, and it isn't really that important that people ride correctly, it's more important to have fun, so who cares if they wouldn't score well at a show or whatever. Are they being deluded? Yes, but they are enjoying it.

I think where most people switch over to 'it's unethical' is when they see the trainer losing his temper, yanking on the reins and doing things they feel would actually in the short term, very immediately, injure the horse.

But every rider is going to have a very, very different point where he switches over from so what to it's unethical.

[keana]

Is that horse doing a spanish trot ?

I've read about it but never seen it done. I've only seen the spanish walk..

[Quest52]

One is that a professional, who gets paid money to teach, by riding around doing 'advanced' things poorly in front of people who can't tell the difference, one is being dishonest and taking advantage of people's ignorance, most likely, to make money training them.

The people are unlikely to progress properly, and may even harm their horses or in extremes, get hurt themselves, but at the very least will be learning incorrectly, because people who ride incorrectly can't teach people to do things correctly. There is also the little matter of money. Taking naive people's money for poor quality, incorrect instruction is not ethical.

I appreciate this view, and think thats why it should be brought to light. Sure, there are many people out there that do this, not just this on eperson or this one group... but this is the one that I saw.

I guess I just don't agree with the trickery going on on the part to try to get others to believe how corrective and beautiful this is and then *woosh* take their money for this $$$$ horse, or have them ride with your dressage brigade for $$$$.

and though its not posted here... and I can see why these people choose their method, I have received more than 3 personal emails from people specifically about these people and their dressage training methods. If what these people tell me are true (some facts overlapping between people) then I can only assume that many of these tricks have been taught to the horse to their physical and mental detriment.

[slc2]

"Spanish Trot" means 'passage'. They are the same thing...sort of. I'm sure the intention here is to do a passage.

It doesn't mean they were always executed in exactly the same way, though. The term 'Spanish Trot' is more used in 'high school' and 'trick' riding, and often the quality of it wasn't very classical in those cases.

There are very old photos from the Spanish Riding School labeled 'Spanisher tritt', but the horses are doing passage. And the classical passage is still called 'Spanish Trot' in some circles.

There is literature which describes it as distinct from passage. Usually, it seems more exaggerated and extreme, with a stop in motion, with the legs held more flexed, and then snapping the legs forward and surging forward, not so much a diagonal gait or a completely even stride at all times.

Sometimes what is done is a kind of Spanish Walk in a slightly diagonal gait, with the forelegs snapped upward straight and parallel to the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiS-GciTz5E&feature=related

The difference between this and the horse that has a 'high' more classical motion in front is that this motion comes from the shoulder muscles making a great effort, and the 'high' more classical motion comes largely from the driving hind quarters freeing up the shoulders and allowing an effortless motion, or the forelegs driven upward rather than lifted upward.

another Spanish Trot

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.equinephotographers.org/portfolio/vio_0249-th.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.equinephotographers.org/members/portfolio.php%3Fid%3D2066&usg=__AMB2C0zoVSAjWjdesNLXBnWaNDY=&h=127&w=150&sz=9&hl=en&start=15&tbnid=h-hY3-8TXLBtlM:&tbnh=81&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dspanish%2Btrot%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

[Ambrey]

Isn't the lady on the palomino in the second link the same person?

[mickeydoodle]

pretty colored horse

[indyblue]

Showed my husband the video and he was mucho impressed.Flowing blonde haired woman riding a beautiful Palomino in a western saddle doing some obvious tricks.He wants to know why Im not doing this."She looks like she is having so much fun".I think so to.Im envious about how less confined she looks compared to what I try and do each day.I figure I have about 25yrs of riding left in me and unfortunatly I will probally be working on the same stuff and be getting hammered about the same things by my instructer on the day I retire.
Unless you produce evidence that this woman beats her horses I think the whole thing is harmless and I can see why people would want to train with her if they are not into competing.

[chipkalee]

There is "spanish trot" which = passage and then there is a "spanish trot" which is a sort of elevated extended trot where the extension part has a sort of delay so that the forelegs sort of 'flick' out at the extension. Hard to describe. But a good one, though seldom seen, is quite spectacular. Really it's more of a parade movement, for entertainment I guess. If you look for them you can find Beaudent and other old type cavalry officer photos of horses doing this type of spanish trot. Unmistakable, the horse is in trot, but the foreleg is straight out.

[Quest52]

Unless you produce evidence that this woman beats her horses I think the whole thing is harmless and I can see why people would want to train with her if they are not into competing.


unfortunately I think I now can :(

PM me if you would like me to forward you the messages.