Mare is sound but maybe not enough now for riding

[Yip]

My mare, Rose, *should* be 17, but there are no papers for proof. 2 weeks ago, the vet/dentist said Rose has the mouth of a much older horse - maybe up to 10 years older. It was a shock that Rose might be aged, but maybe it's the missing link to her hip problem.

She gets regular chiro care and her RR is always stuck, and sometimes locked up. Her back is sore the minute I stop belly lifts. Chiro works, but Rose can't seem to hold the adjustment. I also give a joint supp. and went through a series of 20 weeks of Acetyl-D-Glucosamine injections, IM. They all help some. I thought she was too young for these problems, now I learn she may just be acting he age.

She is perfect at the canter and trot, but WALKING DOWNHILL is where the hip will most likely fail a bit, and only with a rider aboard, in my experience. When the hip gets stuck, the RR collapses a little before unsticking. She has never come close to falling on it. It's like a *hitch* in the hip and she's used to it but having a rider makes her verrry careful going down hills. I think she would be very sound if she didn't have a rider on her back. She's a placid, trusting, steady Edwina, and she's too good to give up a useful life. Do you think Rose could make a reasonable pleasure driving horse?

The dilemna is, both the vet and chiro. insist Rose needs a lot of exercise to help build muscle and keep the adjustment, NOT retirement. I can't ride her enough for her needs - and when the hip begins collapsing again, I don't want to ride her and take chances. Since she doesn't *collapse*when not undersaddle and never fails at the trot, I was wondering if pleasure driving might be a good fit for her. It's one way I can think of to put lots of miles on her w/o riding. I was exercising her and Cookie behind my 4-wheeler for about 7 mos, but have lost the use of the pastureland to a new home. I am out of ideas, except for pleasure driving.

Sorry so long. Thanks for reading this far!

Wendy

[goodhors]

Carts and carriages put stress and weight on a horse though differently than riding. By RR, I am understanding right rear leg?

Unless you buy a vehicle with brakes, horse is going to be stopping the vehicle with their rump, using the breeching. This braking action of breeching is also used on down hill driving, to prevent vehicle from hitting horse in the rump. Not sure how that will affect her bad leg.

She will need traction additions on her shoes for hard surface roads, to prevent vehicle pushing her on downhills, slippery surfaces. Might change how she goes, with hoof being more firmly planted, no slide or minimal slip on each step with that bad leg.

She will still have some weight on her back with a 2-wheel cart, even if it is well-balanced. Weight will increase on downhill work, with a belly pull on uphill driving. You just can't balance a 2-wheeler on hills.

I don't know if the horse is up to the job with her problems, let alone if she will WANT to learn driving skills. Some don't drive, they don't like it. Many older horses are trained to drive, but she has other problems to consider before asking her to learn.

Have you tried ponying her? She can get the mileage, but is only hauling herself around. It is a bit more work going down the road, than just leading them from an ATV, but does get a horse exercised. You control the speeds of travel.

[Yip]

It's not really her leg, just the right hip itself. They want to build muscle to hold it all together better and take the brunt of the work, instead of the hip joint working so hard.

I do understand what you're saying anbout still having weight on her. Our area is all hills. There is nothing flat even on my property - except maybe the floor of the house, but not making any bets on that either, lol!

I'm not sure if Rose would like driving. She is already ground driving well, but needs more work because there are still times when she gets confused. She has never been hitched to anything, but when her longlining is very good and consistent, I can begin harness training, and try a tire behind her. Of course I'll follow the proper steps - but I won't have any help.

I think she might prefer driving to being ridden. She is not one who likes leaving home w/o Cookie, but I would have her real driving training done by a trainer who will ably deal with that.

I don't have a cart yet to pony behind and I'm really green, so it probably wouldn't be safe to do that anytime soon. I have heard of people doing that and it worked well for them, so it could happen.

Thanks, I can always count on you for trying to think of all the angles of a problem. That's what I need.

Wendy

[Yip]

Here are a few pics.

rear shots taken last August.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3215/2717481657_4c7055947f.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3092/2763664688_0c98389917.jpg

Also in August. I know she's *light* but the vet and chiro want her that way to lessen stress on her hip. Her back looked tons better than this after 7 mos. of belly lifts and butt tucks, so it IS possible.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/2763664002_3170f79c64.jpg

They believe the hip problems are caused by her advancing age and conformation, which you can plainly see here. Rose is a 17 yo. (to my knowledge) TWH, 15.2hh. and 1135# last summer.

[Thomas_1]

I'm not personally convinced that it's a good idea at all and for the reasons that Goodhors mentioned.

At that grand old age, she shouldn't be learning a new job.

She'd be better just turned out with other horses and just taken for walks in hand.

[SmokenMirrors]

Can you pony her off another horse for exercise? Would that help her? I know I do that for a mare who I am trying to rehab and that keeps her in good enough shape she isn't fat or not muscled up.

[hitchinmygetalong]

You sound like a very caring owner who is truly trying to do the best for this lovely old gal.

While it may seem that driving would be less of a strain on her hip joint than riding, she is still going to need that joint to power the engine, so to speak.

My first thought as to keeping her muscle tone would be swimming, but that is more than likely out of the question. The other thought would be (as others have suggested) ponying. Something where she can move along with no added weight or stress to the joint.

It's a dilemma.

Good luck to you - I hope you find a workable solution.

[Cielo Azure]

Why don't you put a surcingle or a harness on her and long line/ground drive her (make sure she is comfortable with long lining first). Most started horses "get it" right away.

I trail drive a lot of young horses and it is really good for me and the horse. It builds a relationship, we all get a work out, and they love it. You can go anywhere using this method from a trail to the streets! Sometimes, it almost feels like taking a dog for a walk.

She looks lovely, B.T.W.

I had a older horse with a permanent hip issue. I would occassionally use her lightly for teaching driving in the ring. We didn't use her anywhere that required extensive downhill work. As long as we kept the work light, she wouldn't be sore the next day. But this horse had driven her whole life and knew what to expect and how to use her body while driving.

[goeslikestink]

I'm not personally convinced that it's a good idea at all and for the reasons that Goodhors mentioned.

At that grand old age, she shouldn't be learning a new job.

She'd be better just turned out with other horses and just taken for walks in hand.

tend to agree with both
some horses and ponies just dont make that kinder grade when old 17 yrs is an average age
for an older horse insurance comapnies start at old polices for old neds at 15 the reason being its there peek and any that make it to or over 17 onwards then each year is a bonus
plus not to be disrespectful but if the horse isnt sound at walk be it down hilll up hil or on the flat then its not going to be sound in trot or canter

to the untrianed eye one might thinks its sound but as you have notice in her walk down hill shes not so therefore the mare is unsound and as you said has a hip problem which you can see
time for this girl to have the benifit of a pasture pet for all the good years she given her service to you as a freind and companion and partner

[nfld_pony]

Unless you buy a vehicle with brakes, horse is going to be stopping the vehicle with their rump, using the breeching.

Can you just not use breeching??? What about thimbles or wrap straps on the shaft loops??

[Yip]

Unless you buy a vehicle with brakes, horse is going to be stopping the vehicle with their rump, using the breeching.

I could possibly do that. I have no expectations of brakes stopping a vehicle with a runaway horse, and I realize trying to would be very dangerous, but using brakes as a tool to help the horse on our many hills is an idea.

She will need traction additions on her shoes for hard surface roads, to prevent vehicle pushing her on downhills, slippery surfaces. Might change how she goes, with hoof being more firmly planted, no slide or minimal slip on each step with that bad leg.

That's something that never even entered my mind and I have no experience with it. That could be very useful to Rose when being ridden. She has never worn rear shoes, but rears with studs might give her more security and confidence, at least in the fields and trails. The farrier is due on Wednesday, so I'll talk to him about that possibility.

Can you pony her off another horse for exercise?

Yes, I can do that and have done it in the past. It sure isn't fun though! Cookie has a very *purposeful* walk with those short legs (14.2hh.) and Rose's favorite gait is *amble.* Cookie and I usually feel as if we're dragging her along!

The other reason I don't like to pony often is because Cookie is not one to be buddy sour - but when we pony a lot, she becomes buddy sour when I ride her w/o Rose along. Rose can be buddy sour any time, so I'm used to it from her, but it just ruins Cookie and I have to go through forced separation for nights or part of the days to get her back to normal - a big hassle. But it CAN be done (I have done it before) if this is the only option for exercising Rose.

My first thought as to keeping her muscle tone would be swimming

I WISH! It would be just what we both need!

Why don't you put a surcingle or a harness on her and long line/ground drive her (make sure she is comfortable with long lining first).

I am already working on longlining with Rose and she's doing well, just needs more practice, and we COULD do this in the fields/trails at this point. I think her grasp of the job is good enough to get started and it would be more fun than walking around the yard, since I need the exercise too. That's a good option! I can and do walk her in hand, mostly in cooler weather. She has the most excellent ground manners and is a joy to walk.

time for this girl to have the benifit of a pasture pet

Hehe, most of the time Rose would love to be a pasture pet, but she really does enjoy getting out *sometimes.* Just 2 weeks ago, a little girl rode her and she kept right up with Cookie, much to our suprise and delight. She usually lags waaaay behind, but she just felt really great that day after a long rest w/o riding - and a fresh chiro adjustment. Honestly, If I could afford chiro for her every week she'd love it. Rose is the poster child for *Horses LOVE Chiropractics.*

Can you just not use breeching??? What about thimbles or wrap straps on the shaft loops??

I honestly don't know anything about this. Maybe the others will comment.

1. You need to be very careful to get a lightweight cart (like a road cart) or 4 wheel carriage (a light small 2 person phaeton). 2.You also need to be careful that she is only driven on firm ground which is less drag on the wheels and less work on her hip. 3. Until you are sure she can handle driving with no "hitchiness", you should be the only one in the carriage.

Yes, I realize those are all givens. I am a newbie and understand I should buy a 2-wheeler for my first cart, but I could get a lighter one with an adjustable axle/seat.etc. to make it as easy as possible - and that's what I'm looking for anyway.

I know a 4-wheeler would be a lot better for Rose - but I am not at all sure about my readiness yet. I will definitely work toward that goal though, even if only for driving Cookie, that's my plan.

I guess I was hoping it couldn't hurt to at least try. We have a long way to go before Rose would be hitched to anything. If it put too much strain on her hip, I would stop. I would never want to hurt her, which is why I'm considering retiring her from riding. I retired my first TWH mare from riding after treatment of EPM. It broke both of our hearts, but she was beginning to collapse and I wouldn't take the chance on her getitng injured.

You can see in her eyes how sweet this old gal is. She's too good to give up on, but I know she can still be good and retired.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/235/514255699_01550f477d.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3029/3314767419_ee1a9b457a.jpg

You guys and gals are the best! Thank you so much for taking the time to hash this dilemna out with me. You've thoght of things that never occurred to me, and have given me a lot of good ideas, possibilities, and guidelines to think about. Thank you!

Wendy

[Cartfall]

As others have given you plenty of info on how, I want to make a single comment on age--

Many an older horse has been taught to drive and taken to it wonderfully!!! Personally I don;t consider 17 old--just getting good!!! I have two grand ladies --one is 17 the other 23 and they are still going strong!!! Someone forgot to tell them they are "aged"!!!:lol:

Years ago taught an "aged" grade gelding I had who we thought was about 22 to drive. Turns out an equine dentist placed him about 8 to 10 years old than that!!! He went another half a dozen years strong driving even after we quit riding him, finally he gave out somewhere I am guessing just short of 40 years.

So unless her physical limitations keep her from doing this, mentally an older horse can and often does learn to enjoy driving!!!

[Thomas_1]

I posted a very short response earlier and wanted to let you have more comprehensive advice as I see you are getting various opinions..... no surprise in the horse world ;)

First of all to set the context. I put a lot of older horses to harness. If you read my postings over time you'll see I frequently say that it's a good idea.

However what you're talking about here is a horse with hind end lameness which is manifesting as a severe problem whereby she's actually got a hip that's sticking or locking and she's collapsing her leg. Now that's not good nor safe for riding or driving. Particularly when she's never ever driven before. You say she's not coping with a rider and to be frank then I'm sorry to say that coupled along with the fact that you're in a hilly area that it's just not the right thing to do to drive her either. She will be a veteran horse that's a totally green driving horse and with a physical problem that is likely to be made worse because of driving. NOT GOOD.

Seriously I'd be inclined to keep her fit by walking her out in hand. You said she long reins so there's the solution. Walking up and down hills is really good for musculature development and particularly hind end. (It doesn't do me any harm either) ;)


Years ago taught an "aged" grade gelding I had who we thought was about 22 to drive. Turns out an equine dentist placed him about 8 to 10 years old than that!!! I do wish people wouldn't do that. It's guess work. There's no way on this planet you can tell the difference between a horse that's 22 or 32 by teeth.

He went another half a dozen years strong driving even after we quit riding him, finally he gave out somewhere I am guessing just short of 40 years. and I'd lay my money on the fact that there was no way he was ever that old in the first place and the dentist was full of bovine excrement.

[bluroan]

I don't know what part of your horse's leg is collapsing, but my 12 year old gelding has "sticky stifles". He's broke to drive and has been driving for about 6 years. I took a year off to ride him and the stifle problem started to crop up. My vet said to resume driving him again to strengthen his stifles/hind end. Now I only arena drive him so it's pretty level and it's only a light 2 wheeled Jerald cart.

My opinion is that older horses need a job, you don't know if she'll take to driving unless you start her. I say go for it...at least it'll keep her mind, if not her body active.

[Yip]

So unless her physical limitations keep her from doing this, mentally an older horse can and often does learn to enjoy driving!!!

Cartfall, If I were to begin with driving training, do you think Rose could get badly hurt (crippling) in any one pulling lesson? Or would ithe injury be over time, so I'd have time to discontinue before exacerbating her condition? If I did begin training, I would stop permanently whenever I noticed a decline in her soundness - if it happened over time. Do you think she could be badly injured without warning?

Seriously I'd be inclined to keep her fit by walking her out in hand. You said she long reins so there's the solution. Walking up and down hills is really good for musculature development and particularly hind end. (It doesn't do me any harm either)

Thomas, just how much walking do you suppose it would take to get a horse and keep her somewhat fit? Can you give me an estimate in miles or hours per week? I am in unknown territory here.

I don't know what part of your horse's leg is collapsing, but my 12 year old gelding has "sticky stifles".

Bluroan, I'll talk to the vet this week about locking stifle as a possibility. Maybe my farrier will help by observing on Wednesday.

My first TWH did have locking stifle which manifested itself way more severely than what Rose is doing with her stuck hip. Phyllis did collapse and had trouble rising from a lying down position in the pasture, and couldn't pivot on that hip because the stifle would lock up every time. She also was very resistant to reining back - she physically couldn't move the stuck leg that way. Rose can pivot on that hip and can rein back. The vet is due back out for yearlys beg. July and Rose can be assessed then. And I'm sure the chiro will be back out in June. I know she' d be happy to observe, but she has never mentioned locking stifle with Rose.

Thank you everyone! I'm making a list of who to call, what to ask, and what to try.

Wendy

[Ashemont]

Wendy,

I've got a pony with a similar hip problem (although she's quite a bit younger than Rose) and my chiro taught me how to unstick the joint. It's really VERY easy. I just manipulate both of my pony's hips before we head out and she's fine. I also do stretches with her back legs, both forwards and backwards, when I think she needs it.

This pony is successfully competing in CDEs as 1/2 of a pair and it's not a problem. But I drive a 4 wheeled carriage with brakes and I don't use any breeching. Although I can put this pony to a 2 wheeled cart, she has let me know that she really prefers the 4 wheeled one. No problem: I just sold the 2 wheeled one ;)

I have had a lot of experience re-training older mares. Most are just wonderful and take to it easily. They have a good work ethic and much prefer having a job to being retired. So I'd say give it a shot!

Good luck and have fun :D :yes:

[Yip]

Oh, geez, forget whatever I said about Rose doing pretty well longlining. I took her out today for the first time this season and she acted like she had never done this before in her life. She appeared to have forgotten everything she learned last summer.

I'm going double check all the tack and bit adjustments, then try again to see if the light bulb will come back on before I go back to the beginning. It's probably going to be quite a while before she's ready for a real driving trainer.

Cookie was about perfect, as usual, but she has actual driving experience. That one never forgets anything, good or bad.

Thanks, Ashemont. I have actually unstuck Rose's hip too, but I'd like real instruction. I just watched (for 3 years!) and then DID. I need to take notes so I prepare her properly. Is Dr. Karla K. your chiropractor? I know she travels out your way.

Wendy

[Ashemont]

Thanks, Ashemont. I have actually unstuck Rose's hip too, but I'd like real instruction. I just watched (for 3 years!) and then DID. I need to take notes so I prepare her properly. Is Dr. Karla K. your chiropractor? I know she travels out your way.

Wendy

No, I use Dr. Susan Chandler and have for years. Sue comes to the SP area every other Tuesday. She really saved us a few times with our FEI stallions! Now that we're driving we find we don't need her nearly as often. Her frequent advice to trot in straight lines is much easier to do driving ;)

[Thomas_1]

Thomas, just how much walking do you suppose it would take to get a horse and keep her somewhat fit? Can you give me an estimate in miles or hours per week? I am in unknown territory here. It depends on what her general management circumstances are as well.

e.g. is she turned out with other horses? Is she pretty active generally when she's turned out? There's lots of things you can do to make her more active generally dependent on what she's like now and what sort of field she's turned out in. I've a mass of hints and tips if that's also what you need.

Also depends on what exactly you're going to do when you long rein her out.

But I'd say twice a day 3 miles each would be a good place to start. When I have horses and ponies brought to me that are too unfit to drive we start off, often before we even long rein them, by taking them for a walk around the block. Now what this is, is a triangle that surrounds the farm house that's 3 and a half miles round and with a couple of good drags up a hill that gets the pulse going. (Takes about 40 minutes once we're at a brisk walk) Just to get them listening and behaving and ready for training we then in the afternoon put a load of stuff out in a 10 acre field and take the horse in and around and up and down that. Walking it round all the stuff put about. We put tractors, quad bikes, wheelbarrows, plastic bags, garden implements, cones, buckets, piles of fence stakes.... you name it... whatever is to hand. (about an hour)

I'd strongly urge you not to lunge or do things in tight circles though until she's had a full veterinary assessment and has muscled up very well because that will put strain on her aged hip. Also ensure she's not carrying any excess weight (fat)

Got to say though that if you brought a 27 year old to me with a locking stifle and a hip problem that's so severe that you're concerned it might fail if you ride her, then I'd be suggesting you save your money and just keep her active and healthy via good turn out and walking out.

[Yip]

is she turned out with other horses? Is she pretty active generally when she's turned out? There's lots of things you can do to make her more active generally dependent on what she's like now and what sort of field she's turned out in.

Rose is never stalled except during t-storms. The mares are in the corral about 12 hrs. a day because I have to greatly limit grazing (founder and complete recovery 5 yrs. ago). They both get tying practice for about 2.5 hrs. a day, and that is incl. in their corral time. The rest of the time when I'm not doing something with them, they're turned out on about 2.5 acres. Rose walks constantly, but doesn't play or run.

I read and have copied the ideas you gave - thank you! I can do some of those only on a small scale.

I'd strongly urge you not to lunge or do things in tight circles though until she's had a full veterinary assessment and has muscled up very well because that will put strain on her aged hip. Also ensure she's not carrying any excess weight (fat)

I never longe Rose. I know about tight circles. She is quite trim, & I can slightly see ribs when the light is right. The vet ordered that a year ago and I believe it helps, though she was never overweight in the first place.

Got to say though that if you brought a 27 year old to me with a locking stifle and a hip problem that's so severe that you're concerned it might fail if you ride her, then I'd be suggesting you save your money and just keep her active and healthy via good turn out and walking out.


Rose is supposed to be 17 and the vet believes it's entirely possible. But she said Rose has the mouth of a 25+ old. The sellers knew Rose from birth, so they shouldn't be off by 10 years. I'm still going on her age as 17-ish.

I can do a lot of things you mentioned and will begin making a plan. I know Cookie will enjoy all those diversions even if Rose doesn't thrive on them and the plan has to change.

What I need is another horse to play with Cookie and be available when I have company who wants to ride. This is a great time to get a good horse cheap, but hubby just came off 9 mos. unemployment - so we're being extra cautious with money. I wish I could give a home to a horse whose people are unemployed and losing their horses.

Thanks again, Thomas!

Wendy
NC