While we're talking about TB bloodlines

[yellowbritches]

Since Ohio is flat and boring, and I'm not driving (I'm on the way to Chicago), and I'm having fun with my new laptop, what do those who know (or just want to state their opinion) think of Vernon's pedigree- http://www.pedigreequery.com/vernon+tiger

As someone said in the CANTER thread, you don't ride the pedigree, so I really actually don't care very much (though if he has siblings like him, I'd scoop them up in a heart beat), but just curious what those who have a little more knowledge in these things think.

[Carried Away]

Absolutely LOVE both Roberto and Speak John!! I have had 2 eventers with those 2 in their bloodlines and they were both fantastic!!

May I ask why you are on the way to Chicago?? (I live there!)

[FrittSkritt]

Alleged is very, very good to have... great conformation. I've heard Roberto is good for eventers.

[yellowbritches]

Carried Away, my sister lives in Chicago, and we are having family weekend there to celebrate her b-day and Mother's Day. I'm almost jealous you live there, but I've visited enough times in crappy weather to know I'd hate it half the year! :lol:;)

I've heard that Roberto is good to have before, so good to here it confirmed.

[JER]

The Roberto line has produced some fantastic athletes. Roberto himself was an incredible horse. Lear Fan was also a very good stallion.

One thing about the Robertos -- they can come without a brain. As in dumb as a box of rocks. I'd heard this, didn't believe it, and then I got one. A gorgeous TB, a pedigree that screamed 'jumper!', could jump a line of 5' fences and had an empty cavern between his ears.

He competed up to Training but did not have the mental capacity for more. You couldn't let him think because if he happened to have an idea, it wouldn't be a good one.

Alleged was a beautiful horse. Here he is winning his first Arc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JmWHPiz0uw).

And here's Roberto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-YKhMwDM7w) winning the Derby.

[subk]

I agree about Roberto--everything I've heard says great athlete but light between the ears.

I have also heard that Allege had textbook perfect conformation. And for some reason I'm remembering that he is liked as a steeplechase sire--but don't quote me.

Prince John also seems to be found in a lot of good jumpers, maybe found more often in a good hunter. But I like to see good quality jumping in an eventer myself.

What I really like are the three lines to War Admiral (including through Tumbling in the 5th.) Hoist the Flag is a new favorite because not only do you get the War Admiral but you get the wonderful French jumping lines of Kasr through Tourbillion. Tourbillion is also found through Make Sail. The Tourbilion line also is the sire line of the drool worthy My Babu.

Vineyridge has a theory about upper level event horses and pedigrees that represent all three major TB sire lines from the 5th: Eclipse the vast majority of all TB lines, Matchem which is your War Admiral, then Herod your Tourbillion lines. You're strong in all three which is somewhat unusual for the average OTTB but not for top event horses. Perhaps it's a hybred vigor type of thing, at the very least it is an interesting way to look a pedigrees.

[JER]

I agree about Roberto--everything I've heard says great athlete but light between the ears.

........

Hoist the Flag is a new favorite because not only do you get the War Admiral but you get the wonderful French jumping lines of Kasr through Tourbillion. Tourbillion is also found through Make Sail. The Tourbilion line also is the sire line of the drool worthy My Babu.


Oh, about that Roberto line dunce I had -- on his dam's side he was a great-grandson of Ambiorix, the last stallion son of Tourbillon and an outstanding sire of jumpers. How many 1996 models do you see with Tourbillon up that close?

But was he ever dumb...

[vineyridge]

Thanks for this thread. I just posted asking about Roberto for sport horses over on the breeding board and got very few responses.

One of the horses in Vernon's pedigree that I personally find very appealing for the exploits of his get is Nonoalco. He got sent to France to stand and possibly did his racing there, but he is in the lines of a good number of steeplechasers. For some reason, I think I found him in the pedigrees of Australian eventers, but I couldn't swear to it.

Sort of blushing, but I brought a new mare home after Rolex. She's OTTB but off the track over a year, green as a gourd, and smallish. Sweetest horse I think I have ever met. She is also ADORABLE.

She's linebred Roberto--her sire was a son of Lear Fan, and he's also in her tail female line. I think maybe testosterone may be a problem with Roberto line stallions, as all of them that I have knowledge of have been difficult, Lear Fan being the least difficult. That may be the empty headedness JER talks about. If I remember correctly, in one book about TB stallions, Dynaformer was described as a freshman frat boy. But this mare is very willing and very, very people oriented.

I meant to take photos today and post them, but other things like mud intervened.

[flyingchange]

Amanda -

My 6 year old OTTB mare also has a bit of Roberto, but not on top - on bottom. She is very smart, thankfully. I am glad I didn't get the airhead genes that some of you speak of! Here's her ped:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/soigne2

She has one of the nicest canters I've ever had the privilege to ride. Think I see what the hype is about with the Roberto influence. I know her coolness is not all due to him - but still, I am getting pretty sold on him in a pedigree.

[JER]

A friend of mine was Roberto's vet for 2 years in the late 70s. He really, really liked Roberto, said he was a really special stallion, just a nice horse in all respects.

Roberto himself was not a moron at all nor have I heard the lack-of-intelligence charge leveled at Hail to Reason offspring in general.

Dynaformer is the 'frat boy'. He's got a rep for being less-than-intelligent. But his offspring aren't always like him.

And Hoist the Flag came up on here. A long-time, old-fashioned, international racing breeder/trainer told me the best horse he ever saw was Hoist the Flag.

[yellowbritches]

Thanks everyone! This is really cool. When we bought him as a three year old, it was totally due only to his fantastic attitude and lovely canter. I really knew very little about his breeding, and only found out a little about it after a friend looked at it who knows this kind of stuff.

For what it's worth, Vernon is VERY smart. Probably one of the smartest horses I've ever sat on. He is also very correctly built, nice and solid, and has a tremendous gallop and jump. Obviously, I'm more than a little partial to him, but I've thought this since the moment I first sat on him, when he wasn't SUPPOSED to end up as my horse. I don't know how much of that comes from his breeding, but if that's what this breeding gets, I would LOVE to have more.

Keep it coming, if there's more to know! This is very interesting.:yes:

[SEPowell]

She's linebred Roberto--her sire was a son of Lear Fan, and he's also in her tail female line. I think maybe testosterone may be a problem with Roberto line stallions, as all of them that I have knowledge of have been difficult, Lear Fan being the least difficult. That may be the empty headedness JER talks about. If I remember correctly, in one book about TB stallions, Dynaformer was described as a freshman frat boy. But this mare is very willing and very, very people oriented.

I meant to take photos today and post them, but other things like mud intervened.

Interesting. Years ago I exercised Uno Roberto and he was one of the most kind, intelligent horses I've ever ridden. He was a stallion and on the ground he was like dealing with a great big kind, calm and intelligent poodle. He was also wonderful to ride; I had an intuitive connection to him and he took care of me. At the time I was very ill with an undiagnosed disease and one day while galloping I became so weak that I could only rest my hands on his withers. I started crying silently and he sensed something was wrong and he dropped the bit so I didn't have to do anything except stay on him. He pulled himself up when it was time and then took me back to the barn.

[Maya01]

What does everyone think of http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=MAYA71&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l= :D

[vineyridge]

Maya, my fingers perked up immediately when I saw Winged T in her pedigree. He is in the lines of a fair number of the USET TBs from the glory days.

I've misplaced my Dr. Birdsall books, or I could tell you exactly which ones.

[Catalina]

Can I play too? I know very little about pedigrees, so I would love to learn more about my guys.

Horse 1: http://www.pedigreequery.com/constant+sorrow (http://www.pedigreequery.com/constant+sorrow)
Horse 2: http://www.pedigreequery.com/hit+and+run2

Thanks!

[vineyridge]

Constant Sorrow has one of the nicest bottom lines for jumping that you can have in TBs. Most impressive.

Salutely was the sire of Saluter, who was a truly great American Steeplechaser. Val de L'Orne and his lines are huge in SF jumpers.

The top is somewhat less accomplished in sport. However, Miswaki was one of the best Mr. Ps for stamina and sport.

[Catalina]

Cool! That is very interesting because he is a tremendously scopy jumper and absolutely loves it, which apparently is reflected in his pedigree. (He hated racing, finishing 8 out of 10 in his first and only attempt :lol:).

[seeuatx]

Just out of curiosity... This horse crossed the bridge a few years ago, but he was one of the nicest horses I ever sat on. He was very keen and had a huge heart. Very nice form over fences, quick, catty, and a good mover for dressage. Just curious on what his lines say:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/tooties+boy

[vineyridge]

Hooplah was the dam of Auction Ring by Bold Bidder. Auction Ring is the TB sire who shows up in the pedigrees of Winsome Adante and Formula One through his son Behemond. She was a really, really nice mare who passed on talent to her offspring. She also inherited it through her damline. One of the best sport mare lines comes from Spotted Beauty. She combines the Man O'War line with the Dollar line, so is golden in a pedigree.

Thong was one of the best TB broodmares ever. Her son by Forli, Thatch, is in the pedigrees of more than a few Hanoverian sport horses through the Thatch son Prince Thatch and Thatching. Round Table was no slouch either, since he is Princequillo/wonderful mare line from Knight's Daughter. King Pellinore was an international race horse who had the stamina to do well in "longer" races.

Al Hattab/The Axe is a bloodline that is highly thought of in hunterland. Admiral's Voyage is nice because he combines Teddy lines with Man O'War lines, and also doubles Fighting Fox--the Teddy line. Abernant is found a lot in KWPN lines through his son, Abgar; he's also sire of Aberali (USET jumper) and sireline to Denny's Aberjack. One of the best.

On the whole, though, I'd say his Alias Smith lines are the best proved for sport.

[ncslp]

I know nothing about bloodlines, and since I was given this horse, never researched or thought about it.

But, curious anyway...

http://www.pedigreequery.com/gold+twist

[frugalannie]

You've always provided great insights into my mares' bloodlines. Would you be willing to opine on two more? These were picked up as Suffolk Downs was closing last year. I can only keep one of them. Which one shall I find a new home for?

Many, many thanks.


http://www.pedigreequery.com/jerichos+cat

http://www.pedigreequery.com/tap+rabbit

[vineyridge]

You've always provided great insights into my mares' bloodlines. Would you be willing to opine on two more? These were picked up as Suffolk Downs was closing last year. I can only keep one of them. Which one shall I find a new home for?

Many, many thanks.


http://www.pedigreequery.com/jerichos+cat

http://www.pedigreequery.com/tap+rabbit

You have a PM

[evans36]

I posted this on another thread but had no takers... would love to hear what anyone says. I know there's a lot of Native Dancer in here, but I haven't heard much about the other horses for sport whose names are familiar to me from racing (conquistador cielo/marquetry, dixieland band). Also, I had a trainer that swore by Alydar lines for temperament... anyone else have the same experiences?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/admiration10

[Maya01]

http://www.meadowviewfarm.com/TBSHbloodlines.htm seems to be a great sight for top influential TB lines :D

[frugalannie]

Public thanks to Vineyridge who provided an accurate description of my two mares from their pedigrees. Awesome!

[vineyridge]

I posted this on another thread but had no takers... would love to hear what anyone says. I know there's a lot of Native Dancer in here, but I haven't heard much about the other horses for sport whose names are familiar to me from racing (conquistador cielo/marquetry, dixieland band). Also, I had a trainer that swore by Alydar lines for temperament... anyone else have the same experiences?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/admiration10

Tail female line is back to Spotted Beauty. Excellent line for jumping horses. You also have The Axe through his excellent daughter Foggy Note. Hail To Reason is a staple in sport horse lines. Irish Castle is one of the "lesser known" sire sons of Bold Ruler, but is in the lines of a good number of sport horses. Alydar passed on the jump talent, no question about that. Saratoga Six only raced in his two year old year, won all four of his races (graded most of them), so I would assume that he broke down at some point and was immediately retired to stud. He died in a stable fire in New Mexico a couple of years ago, so one would also assume that he didn't set the world alight as a racing sire. That is not to say anything at all about his ability to pass on sport horse quality. The mare, Mississippi Mud, comes from the excellent Delta Judge family. One of the Judges, and I'm blanking now on which one, was sent to France and is in chasing and WB pedigrees. Actually, it was a mare; don't remember if it was Traffic or one of her daughters, but the Rheffic line springs from her.

Northern Dancer is unavoidable, so he will appear in good and bad sport horses. I'm not sure about Dixieland Band as a sport horse sire; haven't run into him enough to have an opinion.

On top, Spy Song is excellent and found in USET GP jumpers; Never Bend is one of the best lines for event horses of his era; and Vice Regent is liked by some over in hunterland. A lot of hunterlanders also like Conquistador Cielo for his movement and temperament. As far as Marquetry goes, I don't know much about him except his tendency to throw loudly colored get.

This pedigree has a huge amount of Nasrullah back in the 5th and sixth generations. By the seventh, you're hard pressed to find any sire but Nearco/Phalaris. They do exist, but in very small numbers. You do have two Herod lines through High Voltage and Lalun, and one Matchem line through Victoriana. Of course the Teddy's and Man O'Wars are present but way back.

Looking at the pedigree, I'd guess that this horse would be on the hot side of the temperament scale, but the Native Dancers, although Phalaris, don't have the same reputation for difficulty that the Nearco line horses do. On the other hand, I've also not heard that Nearctic is a source of difficult horses, and he IS Nearco. Maybe his Hyperion and Pretty Polly cancelled out his Nearco. :)

Edited to correct something. The horse who was sent to France was a stallion named Traffic by Traffic Judge.Traffic was bred to a French mare by Tanerko and produced the stallion Rheffic. Rheffic is the sire of a mare named Kotkie who is the dam of two horses who won the Grand Steeplechase de Paris multiple times. That's a 5800m race over many different types of jumps

[toxicity]

Anyone? I would love some insight on his pedigree. I do hunter/jumper with him.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/project+halo

[billiebob]

Vineyridge? Because you're so awesome? Pretty please?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bobby+d2

I'm just learning about TB pedigrees and I find it fascinating!

[evans36]

Your knowledge never ceases to amaze me! Just out of curiosity... are there some good places/ books that you'd recommend about the tail female lines - not just which are good, but why they matter/how we see their characteristics passed on? I would love to do some reading on that. Also on the historic big bloodlines like Phalaris/Matchem/Herod... I really need a more basic course than most of the internet sites I've seen you link to have. Also, I'm hunting for books to read while I'm on jury duty this week :)

I'm just starting to really learn this horse's temperament for what it is, since I think he's been affected by pain (ulcers/joints) for so long and we're just working out the issues, but I wouldn't call him really hot energy-wise... especially on the ground, where he will routinely fall asleep in the crossties. He is, however, a bit of a perfectionist and he loves, loves a challenge. If you're not challenging him, he challenges you! He's got a huge brain, and he's very brave. He doesn't really stand to be "told" though - he likes to be asked.

That's about all I've ever heard about Marquetry too! And he really hit it out of the ballpark with this one - blaze, 4 high whites with ermine on the ankles, copper chestnut, birdcatcher spots, bend or spots, rabicano roaning, whorls all over the body, and a big white spot on the middle of the underside of the barrel with a white line like a dorsal stripe running the middle of the underside of the barrel. Just after I got him I was browsing books at the local Tack Room and came across the one by the woman who has analyzed the whorls and markings as a "personality test" for the horse - I still haven't had the courage to pick that one up to see what the implications are for this one!

Thanks for the insight about Conq. Cielo - haven't ever even heard anyone say his name outside of racing circles. The thing I have heard about Dixieland Band in racing pedigrees is that he's been highly sought as a damsire, more so than as a sire. I'm interested to see how his progeny shape up for sport as we start to see more of them (I'm sure we will, since more of his grand-children are being bred now!).

THANK YOU again!!

[rhymeswithfizz]

I'm curious too!!! Here is mine, he is an eventer and a Secretariat great-grandson:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cannon+crossing

Also, can anyone tell me, what does this stuff across the top mean?
CANNON CROSSING C, 1993 DP = 5-4-12-6-1 (28) DI = 1.15 CD = 0.21 Career Earnings: unraced

[evans36]

The DP, DI, and CD are all dosage statistics. Basically a way to quantify the horse's pedigree through famous sires in there, how far away they are from him in the pedigree, and whether they were sprinters or stayers. It's kindof complicated... read about it here: http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/dosage/index.htm

I thought the C next to your horse's name meant Colt, but he's a little bit old for that (that's what the 1993 is for)... guess we'll have to let someone with more knowledge tell you about that part :)

[vineyridge]

It does mean Colt. That's what he was when he was registered and his owners never bothered to tell the JC that he had been gelded. When he was entered in PQ, the person entering him went by the JC pedigree information.

[evans36]

Does colt not automatically turn to "horse" when they age? Or am I way off there?

[vineyridge]

When colts turn four they become horses; when fillies turn four, they become mares. However, the TB databases don't go through and automatically change everything on Jan 1 of the 4 yo year, although I'm not sure about the JC now that I think about it.

I think we are just expected to know. :)