CCI* at VA [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

Firefox

May. 7, 2009, 01:09 PM

breakthru

May. 7, 2009, 01:13 PM

Arg! I'm planning on going next year- long format- but I'm not ready this year. Please people, keep this alive!

bornfreenowexpensive

May. 7, 2009, 01:18 PM

Ok, with these numbers the CCI* LF and or the SF is going to die its slow death, tell me why the numbers are down so much, a quick glance at the entries and the breakdown are:

33 total

9 doing the long format no juniors
10 juniors/young riders doing the short format
14 others doing the short format

My thoughts are that the CCI* is not a requirement by itself to move up the FEI levels so people are not spending the money to do a CCI* regardless if it is LF or SF, but if we want this to survive how can we get the people to support it?? I am hoping that I have a good go as this has been a goal of mine for over 20 years, have the horse etc etc etc so we are going for it!!

Yeah....I don't understand if given the option....why most riders would CHOOSE a short format. If we had been ready or qualified in time for VA...I would have made sure we were doing the long format (trainer is currently riding horse but I would have said to enter the long). But it is unfortunately just a couple of weeks to early for us this spring....but Morven is on our radar for a long format.

I wish I knew the answer how to get it more entries.

roki143

May. 7, 2009, 01:23 PM

Arg! I'm planning on going next year- long format- but I'm not ready this year. Please people, keep this alive!

Same here!

Firefox

May. 7, 2009, 01:59 PM

is that the juniors are all doing the SF, WTF their trainers must be guiding them some how but how do they learn to jump at speed if they dont get the chance at Steeplechase at the one star level.

LisaB

May. 7, 2009, 02:20 PM

Yeah, <raises hand>, my instructor has a couple of those. I mentioned to them that there's nothing like the steeplechase and it truly improves your riding. I think it got them thinking. Their horses are above prelim level now :(
so they *might* do a lf if they get another horse.
Damned shame. Good riders and it's not even in their sights anymore. It's all about the sf which in itself is still quite an accomplishment but still not the same. And I truly think YR's would benefit.

LisaB

May. 7, 2009, 02:21 PM

Oh yeah,
counting the days firefox? Need help? I can probably pick on Penny to make sure my schedule doesn't interfere and I'm good with the vet box.

FrittSkritt

May. 7, 2009, 02:25 PM

There's a YR on there (entered in w/o SC) who is not only doing her first 1*, but this is maybe her 5th or 6th prelim ever (4th on THIS horse)... of course, doesn't help that she's on a packer who's already gone around the 2* at Fair Hill... :rolleyes: If anyone should be doing the long format and getting a good lesson from it, it's her.

bornfreenowexpensive

May. 7, 2009, 03:09 PM

Yeah....while I my trainer doesn't need the experience of a long format (already has that)....It is also EXTREMELY important to the education of the horse.

My mare is going to do a short format CCI* only because she wasn't ready in time for VA and there is no other spring long format near me.....but she will do a Long format CCI* (if there are any still left) next (this fall) as part of her education and before I would think of doing a CCI**.

Not sure why so many of the juniors didn't step up for the long format if they were qualified for a CCI and there was a long format available.

retreadeventer

May. 7, 2009, 03:12 PM

Very best of luck Firefox and we are pulling for you!

I don't have a dog in this LF vs. SF hunt...but I can see the difficulty in continuing to put these on with low entries....makes it hard on organizers for sure.

Northfields

May. 7, 2009, 03:19 PM

I think a lot of the young riders competing in the CCI* are trying to qualify for the NAJYRC this summer, and for some reason the USEF is not recognizing the long format for qualifications any more, so the only way these young riders could qualify was by competing in the short format.

Eventingjunkie

May. 7, 2009, 03:20 PM

Might be that you cannot use the long format to qualify for Young Riders.

JER

May. 7, 2009, 03:22 PM

...but she will do a Long format CCI* (if there are any still left) next (this fall) as part of her education

Are there any CCI* LFs east of the Mississippi this fall?

My mare is pointed toward a CCI* this year so I thought I'd see what there is for LFs and I didn't see any. Maybe I'm missing something.

ponyjumper4

May. 7, 2009, 03:22 PM

Coming from a non-eventer, why do a LF when most of the upper level events/competitions that you are aiming and training for aren't run that way?

On a side note, the numbers overall for the spring VA horse trials have been going down every year, so I'm not really surprised.

SevenDogs

May. 7, 2009, 03:27 PM

breakthru

May. 7, 2009, 03:33 PM

ponyjumper- that's the obvious question, right?

Anyone notice how many bad accidents horses and riders have been having since the LF started slowly slipping into status of historical curiosity?

Well, there's a theory out there, a mighty good theory, I think, that says that the LF taught both horses and riders to take fences safely at speed. It also stresses the importance of conditioning for upper level competition. Now that barely anybody is doing them, many horse-rider combinations do not have the same level of experience or conditioning, and there you have your prevalence of deadly, tragic accidents. Bad accidents can always happen in this sport, of course, to even the best and most experienced, but I think anyone not considering this argument, and moving up themselves, or their green horses, without this experience is gambling with bad odds.

I will be doing a T3D and then a CCI* long format before I ever consider moving my guy up to intermediate.

bornfreenowexpensive

May. 7, 2009, 03:44 PM

Are there any CCI* LFs east of the Mississippi this fall?

My mare is pointed toward a CCI* this year so I thought I'd see what there is for LFs and I didn't see any. Maybe I'm missing something.

Morven in Leesburg VA (area II--Oct 1-4) is LF as is Mid South in KY (area VIII Oct. 15-18).

http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?id=1860

bornfreenowexpensive

May. 7, 2009, 03:52 PM

Coming from a non-eventer, why do a LF when most of the upper level events/competitions that you are aiming and training for aren't run that way?

Because it is better for their long term education. Most trainers that I know and respect think it is an important part of the education of a horse and rider. Sort of like saying...why do we use gymnastics in the training of our green horses when you will not see a combination like that at a course? Or why is it good to take a young event horse to some hunter shows and teach them to jump a course like a hunter?

The fences in steeple chase are more forgiving taken at speed...so it really helps a horse and rider learn how to take a fence at speed (which is an important skill in our sport) but in a more forgiving manner. Also, the combination of the roads and tracks and steeple chase require skills in knowing about conditioning, pace...feel for your horse....also important skills for eventing. And lastly...horses and riders come off steeplechase PUMPED up...and feeling like they are HOT STUFF...which often translates in to a very confident building experience carried over on to the xc course. And Stadium the next day will show how well you have prepared your conditioning and training to still be able to jump clean.

It is an important part of the process of their education.

SevenDogs

May. 7, 2009, 04:07 PM

Curious for those trying to qualify for YR -- would you run the long format, if it were accepted as qualifying for NAYRC?

adamsmom

May. 7, 2009, 05:02 PM

Miriam

May. 7, 2009, 05:37 PM

I would love to go, but we just moved up to Prelim in March, and we aren't qualified! I'm hoping to do the one in KY in October. So sad to think that people aren't interested enough to enter.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

May. 7, 2009, 08:44 PM

I was totally hoping to be running, but we aren't ready yet. Sorry not too be heading there, and really sorry more others aren't too.

I had heard USEF was petitioning the FEI to permit full format one stars to count for ** qulailification, Anyone heard any update on that???

Pross

May. 7, 2009, 09:34 PM

Yes it is a sad state of affairs to see so few running the longformat - But for the few that are they will be running the very last CCI* ( FEI) long format - History in the making - EVER in May at the Virginia Horse Trials. My hero's and they will have an experience to remember - forever!

This will be the last CCI* FEI competition hosted by Brian and I .

Get ready for the "Classic Three Day Event" under our own National Federation spec's. So for you that are inspired to acheive the thrill of the Three -Day Event you still will be able to and we look forward to providing that experience for you. As do all 5 of the other CCI* in this country.

The CCI* Long Format is indeed recognized by the FEI. Phases A,B,C, will follow the rules of past years 08 to be specific. And it does count as a qualifier.

Please remember, not that I agree but I guess I can understand... For the youngriders that are trying to qualify for NAJYRC they still have a number of weeks ahead of competition, training, camps, and being named to a team of just 4. The long format is not being used as a chance encounter to qualified when they can do the short format which is not as demanding in total effort as the long so they are "saving" themselves. And the short format is the format for the NAJYRC as well as the future for all FEI horse/riders,and has been well discussed ,a very different way of preparing. The FEI is not going to change their mind. Let's not get stuck on this issue but prepare to stand on our own without the FEI with the support of our own USEA.

We will end up with probably closer to 40 + riders in the CCI* adding a few more to with chase.

It is time we moved on..... SUPPORT "THE CLASSIC THREE DAY EVENT" From this day forward!
Penny

gully's pilot

May. 7, 2009, 10:09 PM

Penny--

Could you please clarify the difference between the LF * that you are hosting now, and the Classic Three-Day?

I'm so very sorry this is your last one. I fully understand how much additional cost is involved in running the LF, and I understand why you can't keep on. But I had hoped to run it when Gully and I were ready.

Kim Bradley

specialK

May. 7, 2009, 10:43 PM

we're the folks you're talking about. daughter trying to qualify for NAJYRC. Has done one Cic* with her older horse (20 years old ):) and will try to qualify with him at Bromont. The amount of resources (money,time, committment etc) is absolutely huge. A 20yo horse says that one would be well advised to have a back up plan. Daughter has a younger horse (11) with whom she's had several strong prelim outings. WE've decided to try to have her qualify on him as well. Her coach is correct in saying that they really need more time to come together as a team before doing NAJYRC. WE could drive to VA but that takes about 20 hr and by the time we take all the time off from work etc its not going to save much money or we could go to Canada and have the younger horse run the CCI* with the younger horse (2 hrs)..the difference between the CCI and the CIC at Bromont is about 1,000 meters.. as far as I can tell. My daughter did the 1/2* LF last year and is totally hooked. We're actually hoping that without the FEI involved LF will be less expensive and therefore might be more of an option for some. Perhaps organizers will be more interested in hosting them if the overhead isn't as great. It would be ideal if FEI would agree to accept CCN (LF) as a qualifier for some events like NAJYRC.
I actaully did not know until reading these posts that the CCI* LF still counted as a qualifier...

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

May. 7, 2009, 10:43 PM

Kim -
I know Penny is well able to speak for herself, but since I'm online here and she's undoubtedly on to the next project ( :) ) I'm pretty sure the difference is one of paperwork, rather than one of effort and preparation and what teams will actually DO at teh competition.

It will still be 4 phases endurance day - just sanctioned by USEF instead of FEI, and thus requiring USEF officials rather than needing to fly in FEI officials...

So we should keep on with our preparations, and recruiting cohorts to train and aim for VA with us!

Pross

May. 7, 2009, 10:53 PM

Kim, Sure - I will do the best I can at this time. A few weeks ago the following folks came toghether "Penny Ross, Kevin Baumgardner; Becky Broussard; Shealagh Costello; Mary Fike; Sharon Gallagher; Margaret Good; Malcolm Hook; Robert Kellerhouse; Sarah Kelly; Brian Ross; Jo Whitehouse; James Wofford'" To discuss the future of the CCI* particularly the Long Format. AT the time of this conference there was no mention in the FEI rules that pertained to Phases A,B,& C - it no longer existed.

Three very basic questions were asked of this group

1. Is the classic format so old and no longer viable or of interest to the competitors?

2. If we feel it is not too old and is still very useful to the sport, what can USEA/USEF/FEI do to rejuvenate and legitimize the classic format so it can continue for organizers and competitors?

3. How do we achieve this? Can we get the FEI to accept the CCN and not punish those who wish to compete and organize the classic format? Will the USEA/USEF support the Long Format?

At the same time as this call was happening the USEF was petitioning the FEI for a solution.
THe FEI would not accept a CCN as a qualifier but it was
recommended that a proposal permitting organizers to offer phases A, B & C in conjunction with a CCI. Phases A, B & C would not be considered an official part of the CCI and would not figure into the final results. The scores submitted to the FEI would only reflect the outcome of the Dressage, Cross-country & Show Jumping tests, but that would satisfy as an FEI qualifier. The USEF submitted a letter based on the recommendation and the FEI later agreed. And you can read the resulting wording to the rule on the FEI website.

However the more we all talked ,the more excited we all got about being able to take the sport of Three Day Eventing back to the sport of years gone by, without the FEI. Back to phases A,B,C,D, back to jumps that were less technical more natural ,to a sport attainable to recreational & junior/youngriders, attainable to the riders for the romance, the total relationship, the challenge , the thrill and for the fun as well as being able to Loweri the cost to competitiors, we could use national officials, knowledgable vets not necessarily FEI vets Etc.
I know that is not alot of exact information about the "Classic Three-Day Event". It is still a work in progess but we are all very excited about the possiblies for the future and I believe this may very well be in place later this year. There is still alot of work, a number of commitees to go thru etc.... But a new logo, new rules,( still within the relm of USEF preliminary specs) new dressage test, will be available soon.

Classic Three Day Eventing will live again! Training and Preliminary Levels! And then who knows..... what the future may hold.
Penny

Jazzy Lady

May. 7, 2009, 11:50 PM

We're actually hoping that without the FEI involved LF will be less expensive and therefore might be more of an option for some. Perhaps organizers will be more interested in hosting them if the overhead isn't as great..

Bromont Short Format CCI* is twice as much to enter as Midsouth CCI* Long format...

It's not cheaper to enter the short than the long...

gully's pilot

May. 8, 2009, 07:10 AM

Oh, Penny--that's FABULOUS! How completely super! I don't give three figs for the FEI anyway, since I seem pretty unlikely to ever ride for the USA. But I will look forward to riding in your classic three-day with great glee--

Kim

Firefox

May. 8, 2009, 08:32 AM

breakthru

May. 8, 2009, 08:44 AM

agreed- so long as the opportunity exists to gain those classic three day experiences, to heck with the FEI! Thanks to everyone involved in trying to keep this alive! I'll be there next year!

BlueRidgeEventer

May. 8, 2009, 08:55 AM

Classic Three Day Eventing will live again! Training and Preliminary Levels! And then who knows..... what the future may hold.
Penny

Woo! I am crazy excited to see this going forward. A huge thanks to Penny and all the others who are making this happen. Fingers crossed that I'll be ready for a Classic Three Day Event next year!

colliemom

May. 8, 2009, 09:01 AM

is that the juniors are all doing the SF, WTF their trainers must be guiding them some how but how do they learn to jump at speed if they dont get the chance at Steeplechase at the one star level.

It is the professionals that will kill the long format, one way or the other. This is the "behind the scenes" way, by actively discouraging the next generation of riders from entering them when they are offered.

I have had trainers tell me to my face that they are doing that and that they see no value or benefit "these days" to doing the steeplechase -- even to the point of discouraging participation in the Training Three Day!!! I did my best to change her mind, but I don't think I made much of a dent.

Frankly, I think it is beyond sad. It is totally misguided and ignorant. But you can't tell them that. :(:mad:

gchildean

May. 8, 2009, 09:07 AM

It would be ideal if FEI would agree to accept CCN (LF) as a qualifier for some events like NAJYRC.
I actaully did not know until reading these posts that the CCI* LF still counted as a qualifier...

FEI will never accept a CCN because it isn't sanctioned by the FEI. There was a meeting on April 15 and the outcome was that the FEI would accept the CCI* LF as a qualifier but would not count the scores from phase A, B, or C. So, essentially accepting the scores as if it were a SF.

colliemom

May. 8, 2009, 09:16 AM

So glad to hear that the numbers are not putting you off for continuing down the road of the "classic three day" I am so looking forward to VA this year, fingers crossed and bubble wrap applied and counting the days for sure!! Lisa B, I think I have tons of help but would love all the support I can get :)

Agreed! I will be preparing my youngster for that very goal!

And Firefox, we will be there, too, cheering you on! Duncan is doing OI, and I'm bringing Owen as a non-competing horse to introduce him to the atmosphere. Should be interesting!

bornfreenowexpensive

May. 8, 2009, 09:22 AM

It is the professionals that will kill the long format, one way or the other. This is the "behind the scenes" way, by actively discouraging the next generation of riders from entering them when they are offered.

I have had trainers tell me to my face that they are doing that and that they see no value or benefit "these days" to doing the steeplechase -- even to the point of discouraging participation in the Training Three Day!!! I did my best to change her mind, but I don't think I made much of a dent.

Frankly, I think it is beyond sad. It is totally misguided and ignorant. But you can't tell them that. :(:mad:

Well...I can say that isn't all trainers. I know many that encourage doing a LF or a 1/2* because they understand the benefit to the education of the horse and the rider.

The other thing to consider....I haven't seen that the SF is any easier on the horses than the LF and most need the same (if not more) level of conditioning, and the same amount of recovery time.

So thinking that going to a SF will allow a rider to bring their horse back sooner to another large competition is misguided. A CIC is shorter and easier and not much more than a horse trial.....but not a SF CCI.

crittertwitter

May. 8, 2009, 09:34 AM

I heart Penny and Brian! :D

pixietrix

May. 8, 2009, 09:42 PM

Maybe SOME professionals discourage the Long Format, not all. It may not be the direction the FEI wants us to take, but I say we never give this one up. Remember when it was hinted that they would still be run at the 2* level? Eh- they're gone. If we don't support the "Classic Three Day Event" at the Prelim level, our sport will continue to morph into something we don't understand and care less and less for... :(

retreadeventer

May. 8, 2009, 09:53 PM

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;4078744]...

The other thing to consider....I haven't seen that the SF is any easier on the horses than the LF and most need the same (if not more) level of conditioning, and the same amount of recovery time.

...QUOTE]

Actually this year at Rolex the icing in the barn area after XC was "legendary". Many many horses were very very lame Sat. evening and thru many many heroic efforts by grooms made it thru the jog. . . maybe the level of conditioning is not what it should be....

EventMore

May. 9, 2009, 12:07 AM

The FEI does not recognize LF events as of 2009 - so, if you want to qualify for young riders or to do a two-star, you have to do SF for the FEI regs.

I wish I was in VA - my horse is qualified and fit. The problem for me is that the jog was Wednesday, Dressage Friday, SJ Sunday...and I live in area 1 so woul dhave had to leave Tuesday and come back Monday...not way on earth I have the time off form work or the money for hotels, not to mention the $600 entry fee...another reason not to do LF only to be required by the FEI to do an additional SF as part of my horse's CCI** qualifications.

Bad system - blame the FEI.

SevenDogs

May. 9, 2009, 12:20 AM

It is the professionals that will kill the long format, one way or the other. This is the "behind the scenes" way, by actively discouraging the next generation of riders from entering them when they are offered.

I have had trainers tell me to my face that they are doing that and that they see no value or benefit "these days" to doing the steeplechase -- even to the point of discouraging participation in the Training Three Day!!! I did my best to change her mind, but I don't think I made much of a dent.

Frankly, I think it is beyond sad. It is totally misguided and ignorant. But you can't tell them that. :(:mad:

Some... possibly even many trainers may discourage the LF. However, there are also many trainers that recognize the value and will encourage their students. If you check the entries, there are actually some top trainers riding their own young, upcoming horses in the Training Three Day Events.

I would suspect trainers that speak negatively about the LF consistently are either young and inexperienced (perhaps never even competed in the LF) or are the types that only have time for FEI goal related programs (making a national team, etc., which are all SF). Neither would the trainer for me.

Divine Comedy

May. 9, 2009, 03:02 AM

So far as everyone knows Midsouth KY will still be running a LF in the fall, right? I don't really care whether it is a CCI* or a CCN*, I just want it to be run. It has been my ultimate goal for this year and everything I am doing is preparing for it. I am desperate to run one, my horse is ready and capable, or will be in the fall, he's conditioned for a CCI* SF but not LF right now. (Which is to say very fit, but I want to do the LF conditioning in the old school way.)

I heard a rumor that last year was to be the last year of LF at Midsouth, and while I'm pretty sure that the source wasn't terribly informed, it made me nervous. But the Omnibus still states it as having a LF, so I shouldn't worry yet, should I?

By the way, my trainer who is a BNT was very happy and supportive of my plan to run the Midsouth CCI* LF and is going to help me figure out how to get my horse to KY and find someone for me to ride with for the week. He will have to be at Fair Hill that weekend, but despite the conflict he still wants me to do the LF and seems to be trying to get some others from the area to go up as well.:)

RiverBendPol

May. 9, 2009, 12:35 PM

Penny, you and your pals ROCK. Thank you! :) :)

GotSpots

May. 9, 2009, 06:01 PM

I would suspect trainers that speak negatively about the LF consistently are either young and inexperienced (perhaps never even competed in the LF) or are the types that only have time for FEI goal related programs (making a national team, etc., which are all SF). Neither would the trainer for me. I have heard a large number of professionals, including ones who are on USEF Team training lists and who have successfully competed at Rolex, say that they don't believe there is any reason for ANYONE to do a long format anymore. They also consistently say that they believe that the steeplechase causes horses to bow tendons, and thus there is no reason to do it. Getting good professionals to see that the long format is a good, necessary thing in a rider's development and thus highly beneficial for their students would do alot to keep it viable.

Wish it weren't so - but it is. The long format one star - if it is to be saved - will be rescued by amateurs, juniors, and the amazing organizers and volunteers who offer it. I wish them every kind of luck.

deltawave

May. 9, 2009, 06:05 PM

they believe that the steeplechase causes horses to bow tendons, and thus there is no reason to do it.

This is where I wish we had some decent DATA. Beliefs encompass all sorts of odd things, but cold, hard facts are what they are. :yes:

LisaB

May. 9, 2009, 06:29 PM

How is steeplechase going to bow a horse??? I would think that straight speed would be fine, the twisty modern courses I would think would cause more tendon injuries. My opinion is the horse is probably going to bow anyway if you're competing him. Really interesting observation from folks that have been there. Then again they are on the training list so they are getting 'indoctrinated'.

JER

May. 9, 2009, 07:53 PM

IIRC, there are studies that show an increased risk of tendon/ligament injuries in horses that race over fences vs. horses who race on the flat. That risk increases with age. IIRC, there was a small survey study in the UK as well as another study in the JRA (Japan). But this was all about racing, which is quite different in many respects.

Ellen Singer et al. did a study on eventing and tendon injuries -- Injuries in the event horse: training vs. competition (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WXN-4MR7DG1-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=30a315222e798861cd7dc0dfe0517460) -- that showed tendon injuries were more common in CCIs than ODE -- but the study was published in 2006 so I suspect they were using LF data.

(But I'm not sure the folks claiming 'steeplechase causes tendon injuries' actually know what they're talking about.)

bornfreenowexpensive

May. 9, 2009, 08:01 PM

When riders are hitting speeds in excess of 800mpm out on COURSE ...as I think I can remember the the speed studies being do are showing....to say that steeple chase at a CCI* is going to cause a tendon bow is LAUGHABLE!

Please.....twice around a steeple chase course jumping maybe 8 fences isn't going to cause a horse to bow that wasn't already at risk of bowing running around xc jumping 25+ fences...and probably going FASTER at points on that course.

GotSpots

May. 10, 2009, 07:42 PM

I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong (frankly, I'm not sure I'm educated enough or have sufficient data to have an opinion, but I'm an analytical sort). However, I will tell you that a number of upper level professionals have said to me that (a) there's "no reason that anyone should ever do a long format", (b) horses "look worse" after a long format than they do a short format, and "there's far more horses on IVs after a long format XC versus a short format XC," and (c) "speed kills" and they know of X, Y, horse bowing on steeplechase.

If you want to change their minds, you can try, but they are SURE they are right and short formats are easier on the horses. And they encourage amateurs and juniors not to enter a long format one star. I'd start by trying to persuade the leaders of the new PRO group, though you've got a pretty uphill battle, I suspect.

Blugal

May. 10, 2009, 07:51 PM

GotSpots, I've heard the same as you from the pros I know. What changed their minds and caused them to enter a LF event after the advent of the SF? Prize money. Sad that's the way it worked, but there you go.

blackwly

May. 10, 2009, 10:55 PM

I have heard a large number of professionals, including ones who are on USEF Team training lists and who have successfully competed at Rolex, say that they don't believe there is any reason for ANYONE to do a long format anymore. They also consistently say that they believe that the steeplechase causes horses to bow tendons, and thus there is no reason to do it. Getting good professionals to see that the long format is a good, necessary thing in a rider's development and thus highly beneficial for their students would do alot to keep it viable.

Wish it weren't so - but it is. The long format one star - if it is to be saved - will be rescued by amateurs, juniors, and the amazing organizers and volunteers who offer it. I wish them every kind of luck.

Yep. Totally agree. This is what I am hearing from just about every BNT I talk to on the subject...including those I highly respect who are really commited to education/training. Pity.