General Question Re: Trainers

[magickmeadow]

I almost posted in "Off Course" and maybe that is where this question should go. If so, let me know. Also if there is a thread somewhere touching on this subject, point me there as well. I recently moved to a barn closer to my new residence. My horse had been at my daughter's barn. The new barn is a coop barn. There is currently a trainer at the barn but she is not the "Barn Trainer". As a member of the coop we can bring in any trainer we like, no fee charged to the trainer as we are coop members. If an outside trainer wishes to use the facility they are charged a fee for use. The trainer currently at the barn gives lessons to non-coop members and trains outside horses. She keeps the arena fairly busy, does not participate fully in the upkeep of the facility, and in general appears to be costing us more money than she is bringing in with her stall fees. It is starting to weigh heavily on coop members who have been made to feel uncomfortable when using the facility while she gives a lesson. So enough barn drama background - we are tossing around charging her a trainer's fee. Her response was that no barn in our area (WA State) charges a trainers fee for facility use. My experience in other areas does not support that statement but I want to find out the rest of you have to say about it. We are talking about a few lessons hit or miss but rather a full schedule 4 days out of the week and during peak evening hours including Saturday.

[merrygoround]

It would appear that the "trainer" is using the facilities to generate income, and while she does support the co-op to the extent that she boards horses that are in training there, as well as teaching there-does she have school horses? Who covers her insurance with the training and teaching? You say she does not participate in facility maintenance. Isn't that part of membership in the co-op? If she is not a full member, then she is an outside trainer despite her constant presence.

Sounds like you need to update your by-laws, or abide by those you have. ;)

[Valentina_32926]

I have taken lessons at another facility and had to pay a facilities fee - and that was for a trainer that taught and boarded her horse at the facility - so it IS normal to charge a fee.

[Ambrey]

Seriously? It's not common for a facility to charge for exclusive use of arenas, etc., by a trainer?

I find that kind of hard to believe- maybe call local facilities and ask them? I'm guessing that if they don't charge, they also don't let her guilt other boarders out of using the arenas.

[blackhorse6]

Here is how I see it.. A "boarder" of a facility has first rights. You pay $$ to board and "ride" your horse at will. Everytime you can not ride because the arena is being used by the trainer, deduct it off your board:yes: This is especially true when a trainer is bringing in outside clients to use the arena that the boarder "pays for" in her monthly boarding fee. Not having access to the arena all the time is like being told you can only sleep in your rented apartment when the landlord isn't using it! :eek::eek:

[Speedy]

You could charge her a usage fee, that would cover some of the upkeep that her use of the facilities for a training/lesson business probably generates.

But, it sounded to me as though the main concern may be the fact that the rings are tied up on a regular basis, and that boarders don't feel entirely comfortable riding while she is teaching, or may be unhappy that they are having to share the ring with more horses/riders than would otherwise be the case. Either way, restricting the times/days during which she is permitted to use the facilities for her training/lesson business may do the trick...restrict her to those times during the day when most boarders aren't typically at the barn to ride (e.g. before Noon, Mon-Fri).

[magickmeadow]

I guess I should have clarified the coop as written. Each horse pays a monthly fee that covers the stall and bedding, within reason. As a coop member you sign up for a specific number of "chores" (feeding, cleaning, maintenance, etc.) per horse that you have in the coop. The trainer in question owns 2 horses and a half lease on another horse. She would be required to sign up and complete chores for 2.5 horses. Only 1.5 horses are considered lesson horses. She occasionally borrows another coop member's horse for additional lessons. She conducts lessons each Wednesday, Thursday, Friday afternoon from 200 pm through about 800 pm, again on Saturday from noon to about 700 pm. Each lesson is about an hour. Overflow or makeup lessons are conducted on Sunday from noon to 400 pm or 500 pm but this is not a common occurrence, one or 2 Sundays out of the month. As a coop member you may bring in your own trainer no charge; however, that trainer may not instruct/train outside students without a facility charge.

She often asks for coverage on chores and she does not participate in arena workup and maintenance or fulfull her paddock maintenance requirements. We each furnish equine liability insurance for our respective horse. I assume she does as well. I do not know if she has a separate policy for herself.

Personally I feel she should pay a trainers fee as I have seen at other barns. This has been addressed at barn meetings with the trainer stipulating this isn't done in WA State. I wanted to get some feed back before conducting some research of the other barns in our area. I am somewhat biased as I don't subsribe to her method of training either horse or rider and have vocalized the same. I am old, what can I say, and set in my ways. It really appears to be an assembly line of lessons. So I figured if everyone thought I was out in left field on the issue, I would leave it alone. The trainer has been there for almost 2 years. I am charged with providing the research for the next barn meeting in 2 weeks.

[Sebastian]

You are NOT out in left field, majickmeadow. Trainer IS tho... A blanket statement like that is just ridiculous. People are charged "usage", "facility", "grounds" fees EVERYWHERE. Call it what you like...

Bottom line, she is making money AND creating more wear and tear on the property than anyone else. She SHOULD contribute more to care and upkeep.

Just my 2 cents...
Seb :)

[rabicon]

Everywhere around here charges. If its not the trainer paying then the trainer passes it on to the student and the student pays it.

[Kimberlee]

Yes, it is done in WA State. I think she is handing you a load of bull on that one. I lived in the Maple Valley/Issaquah area, and one stable I rode at the trainer paid $5 for every person he taught to the barn owner for a "usage fee" to cover upkeep. This was about 11 years ago, and since then the barn has changed owners. When I was in 4-H, we had our group lessons at a barn that also charged this fee to the trainer. I know this because she upped her lesson fee to cover the charge, basically passing the barn's fee to the student (and we still had to also pay the haul-in fee too).

Those are two instances in WA State I know of for sure. Most trainers don't talk about their agreement with the the barn's management, as it is considered confidential information.

[technopony]

I have never encountered a barn that does NOT charge a ring fee for trainers that are not the "barn trainer."

[Long Spot]

I'm a PNW'er, and by golly yes, every place I've ever taught out of has charged a "comission". It's to cover those very things that are concerning you and those in your co-op. I've never encountered a rate higher than 10% of my total lesson/training take, but I've not been charged much lower either. We all have to pay to play.

Questions: Does she at least make an attempt to share the arena with co-op members just trying to ride during her ample lesson hours or are other lessons just the problem? Has anyone tried to schedule a lesson with their own trainer during those hours just to see what would happen? Is there anything written down that gives her lesson hours closed arena status or is it just "understood" in her mind?

Sounds like you guys are getting taken advantage of. You have a few choices as I see it.

As a group you can decide what monitary payment you think is a fair trade for that much arena time (again, I'd hint 10% of her total take if she's teaching non co-ops, and if she wants the arena completely private I'd go higher than that). Another option is just letting her know the rules have changed, that either a certain number of hours are set aside for Co-op boarder lessons with their own trainers, or she has to share her times. Or, you can politely give her thirty days to find another facility. Sounds like she's made it clear she's not reliable to work off whatever amount would be fair to charge her in the trade of work for the benifit of the whole, so I wouldn't even let her bring that up as an option.

I'm curious about the answers to the questions above though. If she's a dragon running you out of your own arena, that makes things pretty easy to decide. If she's pleasant and nice to everyone but just hard to work around, that's going to make it harder to decide what to do.

Please keep us posted. This is an interesting question. I've never boarded or worked out of a co-op barn. I know they are around, but I just haven't run into one. I'm fascinated by how they work.

[blackhorse6]

But again!!!! who cares about the trainer and her lessons!!! What about the people who actually board their horses at the facility! Why should they "ever" have not ride so a trainer can give a lesson? It isn't right.. Especially if the trainer is training someone who doesn't board at the barn. As a boarder, you have every right to ride when you want to.. YOU pay for that privilage. :yes:
I get so frustrated with limited riding time because of lessons..

[Long Spot]

Blackhorse, that is why I asked if the OP was able to ride in the arena while lessons were going on. That wasn't so clear to me.

[blackhorse6]

I "think"...unless I misunderstood, OP felt uncomfortable riding during a lesson. That should never be. I know at several barns I have boarded at, that lessons take top priority. .That just doesn't make sense.. Lesson or not, riding doesn't depend on whether a trainer is instructing. I actually get more out of riding without one, concentrating on what I have learned from a prior lesson. Boarders have rights...they pay board to be able to ride in the arena..no matter when.. Can you tell I have been burned over the yrs? :eek:

[blackhorse6]

And...yes, the barn owners have taken advantage of othe boarders by charging a fee to the trainer to instruct.. NOT ever taking in to consideration the needs of the people who pay board. It is all about $$$..and the boarder is the one who ultimately pays for everyone.

[twofatponies]

Do I understand that the trainer *is* a coop member, but is shirking her duties relating to that (chores, etc.)? If that's also contributing to the resentment of her, it seems like that part at least could be addressed simply, because the clear rules are being broken. You could dismiss her from the coop, for example.

Are the trainer's students members of the coop or outside students?

[magickmeadow]

Coop members may ride during a lesson; however, it can be uncomfortable especially if the student is a rank beginner.

Coop members may NOT take a lesson with their own trainer while the trainer is giving a lesson.

In all fairness, there are times when she is very cooperative and other times not so much. She has nothing in writing to indicate she has sole use of the facility during specific hours.

She had led us to believe she was moving out of the barn which delayed our taking any action. Now the situation appears to have changed and she will be remaining. This has led to the current research and debate at the next barn meeting. We did loose one boarder due to a conflict.

[blackhorse6]

replace her with other boarders...how many coop members take lessons with her? I guess that would be the question to ask at your meeting.. Will she be missed? Do most coop members have their own trainers or do they train with this particular trainer? Having a trainer in the barn is great if she/he is utilized by the existing boarders..If not, then honestly the person will not be missed.

[magickmeadow]

At present the trainer has no clients that are coop members but while working my horse this evening, she updated me on a new coop member arriving soon. Apparently our only empty stall is being filled by a young horse in need of a trainer whose family has 2 children in need of an instructor with a school horse. Another coop member and myself will be finalizing our presentation for the next barn meeting which will recommend some kind of fee along with guidelines. Hopefully she will see the "light". If not we have a waiting list of people wanting stalls. Thanks for all your help and information. It really helped.

[Ambrey]

The basic premise is that she doesn't get to use MORE of the facilities and take MORE resources from the co-op all while actually contributing LESS per horse than the others. Life isn't supposed to work that way ;) Good luck!

[Ajierene]

Almost everywhere I have boarded, there has been a fee (usually $10) to use the ring - for any outside rider. Places with indoors tend to get more 'trailer ins' just to use the indoor in the winter. Some places allow trainers to train there while others do not. The fee is the same and charged to the rider.

If this person has 2.5 horses at the barn and is not doing daily chores, as per CoOp rules, then she has the same privileges as any other person boarding there that does not abide by the rules - kick her out.

Do think her different just because she is a trainer - to you, she is not, she is a boarder and it seems a boarder that is not welcome. Personality aside, she's not pulling her own weight.

[slc2]

If a co-op boarder is not doing her chores, she leaves. The rest of the issues aren't even on the radar screen when it comes to that.

Co-op boarders 'pay' for their board through their chores. If they're not doing their chores, they're 'not paying the full amount'.

I don't really think a co-op barn ever really works out all that well with trainers boarding there, giving lessons on their own horses, teaching others, and most of all getting people annoyed because she's tying up the arena, which is usually, 'the one arena every one wants to use'.

It's rare to see anything like that work out long term. In fact, MOST trainer/barn arrangements don't work out long term, this kind of thing I think is more vulnerable even than usual.

In many barns, people just resent trainers. There is built in friction. They're viewed as 'high and mighty' and 'bossy' and 'monopolizing the ring', and I think many people who don't take lessons or show simply don't like that sort of thing being around. If they aren't very, very careful, things build up and every little thing they do becomes a source of complaint.

And yes, some trainers ARE rather high and mighty and wouldn't pull their weight in a co-op.

But does it really ever make sense for a trainer to co-op board, teach off her horses and give lessons? Probably not. Most trainers are very over-booked, and would not be ABLE to consistently do a lot of barn chores at a co-op barn. Most trainers, if they have their own barn, pay someone to do chores. Because they just can't do all the chores and teach and train, too.

It's not exactly true that 'all barns charge trainers'. Some do, some don't.

First of all, most specializing-in-dressage barns with trainers aren't co-op, they're boarding and charging for all care, which can simplify at least billing, and they have a person who is very specifically the trainer, usually someone the owner works with and likes, and has a financial agreement with that may or may not include ring fees at all. Too, quite often the owner of a dressage barn is the manager as well as the trainer and it's a moot* point.

And very often, lessons with anyone else are just not allowed at all, unless you want to haul out...and from my experience such arrangements don't last long especially in more structured situations...often haul outs finally find another barn that's less restrictive or move so they don't have to haul to each lesson.

Second, barns vary hugely in how they handle the trainer issue. Some don't charge anything for someone to come in and teach, some get the trainer a very nice set up so s/he draws in boarders, especially when they are getting established and trying to get the barn filled.

Often, the money between owner/manager and trainer involves buying and selling horses at a profit, and the couple bucks per ring fee per lesson is not even worth tracking compared to that, especially if they're quickly turning around expensive horses.

From there, arrangements vary all over the place. There IS no one single 'this is how it's done'.

A friend of mine had an academy string of about six horses, and she paid 60% or 65% of her earnings on lessons to board those horses. The pot was supposedly sweetened, but not really, by her being allowed to use a couple of the owner's horses occasionally, but how it worked was, she was actually putting in an immense amount of time training some very unsuitable, and most unsound and unusable, horses. The owner was definitely making out on that part of it, and sold the horses at a profit (lame or not, LOL).

She was teaching lessons both to boarders, and on her string of lesson horses. She had a large very, very well planned out, scheduled and structured group of academy students and a separate small ring for the updown kids that kept her lessons very, very safe. She also was making an unbelievable amount of money for the farm, each of her academy string each went out 3 times a day for updown lessons (don't worry, most of the lessons were walking and jogging briefly...the horses were absolutely fine).

The next place she went a mile away, similar size and market niche, she paid regular board on her six lesson horses, and paid not a penny for use of the ring for her academy horses, or even the owner's horses (the owner saw it as an opportunity to get her non-competitive horses worked and sold), or any of the boarder's lessons.

The difference in her earnings was pretty amazing, since she regularly pulled in 10 and even over 20 grand some months not counting her other lessons, and board on her horses was 3000 a month. She called it 'bleeding from an artery', LOL. It was also her only income, and she had kids, so it wasn't like hobby money she was losing.

The first farm went through trainer after trainer after trainer after her, and emptied out from about 50 to 10 stalls. I didn't keep track of how they were after that, but I don't think their 35%/65% policy worked out at all well for them when it was all tallied up.

The five, ten or twenty dollar ring fee would seem 'reasonable', but actually, from my experience, people resent it, and they look around very, very diligently to try and get OUT of paying ring fees, both trainers, students do so. And quite usually, they can FIND a place where there is no ring fee. Quite a few people I know board near to the trainer and toss the horse on the trailer and drive over for a lesson, and would even if they added up that it costs five bucks every time they use their trailer.

Customers just resent it. They're already paying for lessons, sometimes, 50-75-125 bucks, and they think that's enough, thank you very much, it's not even the amount they just don't like doing it, it's a hassle. Forty bucks a month in ring fees vs losing a boarder who pays 500-600-700 a month and having that stall empty for a month or two, because people don't want to pay ring fees, is not really good management, either.

But the tendency with the more financially tuned management, is that trainers are viewed, not as an asset, but as someone who is 'running a business out of my facility without contributing enough cash to my maintenance of the facility', and there is a very strong effort on the part of those managers/owners, to get the trainer to be contributing - sometimes very heavily, for, 'the privilege of running a business' out of their facility.

Sometimes this approach works out very well, sometimes it's financial and business suicide.

I was puzzled by the description of the problem. The person appears to be teaching lessons for an incredibly long period of time each day and total per week, considering she only has a couple horses to teach on.

*it is not a 'mute point', and it's not 'per say', either.

[goeslikestink]

I almost posted in "Off Course" and maybe that is where this question should go. If so, let me know. Also if there is a thread somewhere touching on this subject, point me there as well. I recently moved to a barn closer to my new residence. My horse had been at my daughter's barn. The new barn is a coop barn. There is currently a trainer at the barn but she is not the "Barn Trainer". As a member of the coop we can bring in any trainer we like, no fee charged to the trainer as we are coop members. If an outside trainer wishes to use the facility they are charged a fee for use. The trainer currently at the barn gives lessons to non-coop members and trains outside horses. She keeps the arena fairly busy, does not participate fully in the upkeep of the facility, and in general appears to be costing us more money than she is bringing in with her stall fees. It is starting to weigh heavily on coop members who have been made to feel uncomfortable when using the facility while she gives a lesson. So enough barn drama background - we are tossing around charging her a trainer's fee. Her response was that no barn in our area (WA State) charges a trainers fee for facility use. My experience in other areas does not support that statement but I want to find out the rest of you have to say about it. We are talking about a few lessons hit or miss but rather a full schedule 4 days out of the week and during peak evening hours including Saturday.


do you mean diy --

my top yard lady is all diy as in do it yourself-- she charges for box and turnout
plus additional charges on the rent are for trialer parking and use of schools plus hay and straw
all stable members have a time slot in which to use the school which is marked up on the baord as say for exsample -- 6-8 liveriers

ie there is baord up with days and times -- during this time the school can be hired out to other means as there are three yards that use the school which are all hers including mine

they do hold clinics of trianers that are not on the premises and they do hold pc rallies
they do hold lessons associated with the premises as top yard lady is bhs instructors plus myself debs is plus one yard other than my own is also a bhs instructor plus x international sj trianer

there are time slots for members to use-- as in stable usage

invited trianers dont pay for the hire of the school for that session
ie if 3hrs then they pay for three hours so they have to charge non-members a fee to cover the costs of there lesson or clinic

only non members pay for usage of schools as we have international size indoor school and out side dressage areana


we also have full usage of woods and tracks and x/c jumps which is included in the rent
plus tea falcities and loo also included is elecy and water

but not included in my yard as mines seperate to the top same as the other 2
but we all have full usage of indoor and out door schools there are over 100 livieries all together

its called planning and it does work as none are in the same place all the time
ie the indoor school as we tend to hack out a lot and only use the school for training purposes or clinics
also not allowed to lunge or ride at the same time as deemed dangerous

non members pay members dont
if however things need up gradeing of which she has been doing then the upgrade is added in rent rises
as the faclilties are always being improved and the traning is second to none
as we have out qualifed bn trianers in to do clinic sessions
our top yard is a competition yard

[Long Spot]

Thanks for the clarification, Magick. Yeah, I think it's time she either shares like an adult and tows the line work-wise or moves on and persues her opportunities else where. (That's me being uber polite ;) because it would be tempting to tell her to stick it.).

Good luck.

[magickmeadow]

I appreciate the good luck. I may need it. The barn meeting has been moved to this coming Sunday at 700pm, Mother's Day. Very appropriate as I think it might be one mother of a meeting. LOL I will let you all know how it ends up.

[slc2]

Good luck. Boarding is often like Alice in Wonderland, the Nightmare.

[magickmeadow]

Well I promised an update so here it is. Interestingly enough as often happens people speak loudest when the subject of the conversation is not present. While it was acknowledged that the barn needed an infusion of cash from an outside source, no trainers fee will be assessed as there was felt to be in implied verbal contract allowing her to train for free. The trainer is in graduate school and made noises about leaving before so without polling everyone, I assume everyone is hoping the situation will rectify itself when fall rolls around. She will be back in school and perhaps not have enough time to contribute to the barn making it necessary to move on. I have my doubts as she hasn't fully complied with the terms of the coop thus far and been allowed to stay. The coop members present decided to increase the arena useage fee. The trainer "graciously" agreed to pay $20 for an arena useage fee for a clinic she is holding. We had one person move her horse due to the situation, no 30 days notice, donated $50 and left. I gave my notice for mid July or with 30 days whichever I felt appropriate. My daughter and son-in-law close on their new barn and will be ready to take my horse probably the first part of July. It will be a bit of a drive but without all the work of the coop and definitely without the drama. My one and only experience with a coop has made me not wish to duplicate the experience. For the most part I have always had my own barn or boarded at my daughter's. My view has been and continues to be that my own barn is best or boarding at a big enough facility that hopefully has a more professional outlook that this little barn is the only way to go. So there you have it - the good, the bad and the ugly.