Please rip this to shreds!

[HighFlyinBey++]

OK, got your attention :winkgrin: Mod1 has graciously offered to relocate this thread under the various forums so experts in all areas can get a crack at it.

My eyes are bugging out after editing all day at work and then coming home and editing for the webmaster. I'd really appreciate if you could take a look at this, in particular the discipline that you prefer/know and let me know what you think of these Awards programs (http://www.puremorab.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121&Itemid=120)

I am looking for "correctness" in the presentation of these programs so that the Association isn't making accidental fools of themselves. For the sake of argument, let's assume that any omissions or errors are based not in stupidity on the part of the author (who is NOT me!) but in ignorance of the subject matter.

Are the descriptions of each category clear, and most importantly CORRECT?
Is it clear which associations they are partnered with?
Is it clear what classes are or are not accepted? Are they the right classes?
Would you add classes or move some to other divisions?
What is missing? What would you like to see if you were considering entering?
Do the divisions offer an equal or balanced variety of classes compared to the other divisions?


I appreciate the experts weighing in on their respective "divisions." I would also appreciate you taking a peek at the Performance division where Hunter/Jumper.

Lastly, the Sport Horse category. Do you agree or disagree with this statement:
Sport Horse is new to the equine world of showing and I am sure there are 100 varites of how to show a Sport Horse in open completion..... but the questions remains.... who is judging this and by what standards..... thus.... use the seat of discipline under Performance. Sport Hose under saddle is BASICALLY hunter under saddle

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Can only speak for the Dressage qualification - which seems pretty confusing to me. To quote: "Top level "high school" for horses — Dressage demonstrations several levels of competition and athletic / mental attitude under the scrutiny of top judges." By top judges, do they mean only rated shows? r or R judges? what about scores?

What does top level high school mean?

Hope this helps!

[HighFlyinBey++]

Thanks Geek. That does help!! If you're confused, others would be, too.

My intent is to get feedback, then either link the thread or C&P the comments to the persons in charge.

[ddashaq]

I agree with Geek, but the explanations on the dressage page are good. I would maybe rephrase the fighting sentence to something more along the lines of "...dressage was originally used as training for the cavalry..." or something like that. Overall, it is really well done!:)

[HighFlyinBey++]

So you didn't have a hard time finding the link to the next page like a certain someone did? :winkgrin: Love ya Geek :D

[ddashaq]

Haha, no, I did not have trouble finding it and I think that it clarified the little blurb on the front page a bit.

[HighFlyinBey++]

Yes, it does become more clear once you get to the second level.

I know I said to check out the programs you're familiar with, but if you wouldn't mind, check out the other ones too, just to see if things are clear even if you're not familiar with something (OK, I'm starting to ramble so I think it's bedtime!)

Thanks again!

[HighFlyinBey++]

bump

[ddashaq]

I read the first three but did not make it any further because I am also trying to watch Grey's Anatomy! Anyway, performance and sport horse are good. In-hand, however, needs a better explanation of what is being judged in the second level. It goes into why the classes exist but not really what the judge wants. I hope those are the type of comments you want!:)

[greysandbays]

... check out the other ones too, just to see if things are clear even if you're not familiar with something ...

I learned a long time ago doing show info flyers for my horse club that every single phrase has to be read and read with the following thought: "If I was a complete idiot, how would I misinterpret this?" -- 'cuz sure as hell, you'll get that idiot and they'll interpret things in ways a smart person would never think of.

Shining example: Our club has Jr (14 & under) and Sr (15 & over) age groups and specifically says so at the top of the class list. It's a single line that says
CLASSES -- (Age groups: Jr - 14 & under; Sr 15 & over)
- double spaced above and below.

We do this because we don't have enough exhibitors to make three splits and it seems more fair for the 15 year olds to be riding with the adults than with the 12 year olds. Anyway we had one 17 year old who fancies herself a "trainer" with "clients" riding in the Jr age group ALL DAMN DAY because in her breed shows, Jr is ALWAYS 17 & under. :rolleyes:

We didn't realize this until the day was over and the mother of a truly Jr rider commented on seeing her smoking and wondering if she really should be in the Jr division. :sigh:

[HighFlyinBey++]

G&B, that's exactly what I want to do, LOL! I've had those shows too "Oh, you mean my 5 y/o horse isn't really a 2 & Under Jr horse?" "Oh, you really meant I can't cross enter walk-trot & canter classes even though it's on the class list AFTER EVERY DANG CLASS" My favorite, though, are the exhibitors at a Class A show that beg, whine and plead until show management caves and allows them to show Sport Horse in Hand in Hunt & Western attire, so that they can immediately enter the English Type or Stock Type classes :rolleyes:

From what I can tell, there is only one place on the site that explains that open classes are as welcome as Rated classes--and the majority of those in touch with me have NOT seen it. I even missed it & I cut/pasted every.single.word. in order to catch minor spelling & grammatical errors as I was asked to do.

There is a problem with Sport Horse. While all other divisions are allowed to compete against all-breeds in open shows, Sport Horse is currently restricted to a single show in Kentucky in October. That quote is her reasoning why. She refuses to count Show Hack, SHuS, Point-to-Point, Hunter Pace, Hunter Hack...because they are "specialty" classes and sound to her like "splitting hairs and taking things way far out."

What I can't understand is how it financially hurts them to offer divisions that don't "pay out" awards until certain criteria have been met. Won't these small divisions earn long-term monies that fund the entire program? What am I missing??! (and no, you cannot say "your sanity" because I know that's long gone:lol:)

If I'm overreacting, I'll concede to their wishes. If not, I'll have good, solid ammunition to plead my case one last time, then I'll have to take the few marbles I have left and go home.

[allswift]

On the Combined Training page, I think the writer means the USEA when they write:

A Morab who competes in any horse trial(s) or event(s) sanctioned by the United States Combined Training Association (USCTA) is eligible for this award.

They've got Beginner Novice listed as such on one table, and then as Pre Novice on the next..

On the dressage page, there is a grammar error.. :)

"The Morab competing in dressage in events approved by USEF/USDF, FEI or CEF are eligible for the PMHA Dressage Award."

Should be, "Morabs competing in dressage in events approved by USEF/USDF, FEI, or CEF are eligible....


In the Sport Horse page, I would cut out a sentence in this paragraph, it just makes it more confusing, and doesn't add to a reader's understanding. :)

Sport Horse is defined as ‘a type of horse’, and not a particular breed. Historically, the sport horse was derived from the English-styled equestrian disciplines or was used for fox hunting. The sport horse was the true performance horse and was tested in disciplines such as Dressage, Eventing, Hunter competition and Show Jumping. However, some consider those used as show hunters to be show horses, rather than sport horses. Horses used for combined driving may also be referred to as sport horses. Horses used for the western-styled disciplines, hunter on the flat, Saddleseat, and horses used for any form of racing are not considered sport horses.


On the youth award page... I don't know what this scoring system is and this would confuse me if I were wanted to compete for the award:

Danish judging results are not recorded as earned or accepted. If a youth is scored on the Danish system of placings, the show secretary must report the ACTUAL number of participants in the class and the TRUE/ACTUAL position of the youth and Morab.


I'm outta time, good luck!

[Kementari]

I have not read the whole site, but the sport horse bit jumped out at me... I've always seen "sport horse" defined as the three FEI Olympic disciplines plus endurance and combined driving (some people include working hunters, but not show hunters). I think that's a much more straightforward explanation than what is there now, and more widely accepted. (Of course, I have heard debate even there on whether reining and vaulting horses are sport horses or not. ;))

I disagree entirely with the idea that SHUS is hunter under saddle: while it is a rail class, the similarities pretty much end there, at least as far as I've ever experienced (and I don't think Morabs would be very different from Arabs, which is what I'm most familiar with!). Even when shown as hunters, horses in SHUS are shown as working hunters, not show hunters - plus, of course, horses in SHUS can be just as viably shown as dressage horses.

Plus, really, these are sport horses. The whole point is that they can go out and do their sport! Not giving points in open competition just seems bizarre, and I can't figure out why an open-show judge is any less likely to judge SHUS correctly than HUS or WP or... I mean, I've seen some pretty ridiculous judging in pretty much every discipline at one time or another. To my mind, sport horses should be getting points the same way as everyone else, but it SHIH, SHUS, dressage, eventing, combined driving, show jumping, and endurance. (I wouldn't include Show Hack, unless it's Sport Horse Show Hack (does that even exist outside of the Arabian world?), Hunter Hack, Hunter Paces, or Point-to-Points, though, as those are not the traditional sport horse disciplines. Of course, I don't rule the world :lol:, so if those are being considered sport horse within the Morab shows they should be considered sport horse for open shows, too.)

ETA: For the Danish scoring thing, you could probably just clarify that by starting with, "For 4-H classes, Danish judging results..."

[HighFlyinBey++]

On the youth award page... I don't know what [the Danish] scoring system is and this would confuse me if I were wanted to compete for the award
It's used quite often in 4-H. Think of it as a cross between a dressage test & grading on the curve. They can give as many of each place as they want and they're also not required to give anything above the lowest place. The entire class can get 1st or they can all get 6th.

Good catch on the BN vs. Pre-Novice!

I disagree entirely with the idea that SHUS is hunter under saddle: while it is a rail class, the similarities pretty much end there
From your lips to their ears! Morabs try to emulate Arabs & Half-Arabs so you're thinking along the right lines.

Without making more divisions, where would you score Show Hack, P2P, Hunter Hack or Hunter Pace?

I can't figure out why an open-show judge is any less likely to judge SHUS correctly than HUS or WP
I can see it happening if they're not familiar with what a SH is supposed to look like (hell, I've been in open walk-trot classes where only the WP riders made the cut because the hunters & saddleseat horses "kicked up dust." Direct quote from the old fart. He also placed stock-type horses over ponies THEN English-type horses in the English-type halter class. It ran from the stockiest animals to the most refined.)

It goes back to knowing that a truly versatile horse is NOT a "colorform" horse, that takes more than just a costume change to correctly perform in a discipline.

What I can't understand is why it's OK to accept that awful walk-trot class I was in, but not an open SH class.