Horse lugging on french link snaffle

[sidepasser]

She is lugging on the bit and it is killing my shoulders, trainer seems to think the french link is too mild for her and she "blows" through the bit. She is huge (to me 17.1 is very big) and at the outset of lessons, she starts off "on the hind end, very light on the front" but as the lesson progresses (with me) she gets increasingly on the forehand to the point where i have to stop her and rest as she is lugging so hard. Any advise? I am really doing my best here to learn, and it is hard for me and Tyr..we are both new to this and Tyr is new to everything - including consistent riding. I ride her 4 days a week, trainer rides her 2 days a week.

I hope this isn't a "stupid" newbie to dressage question, I do not know how to stop the "lugging" on the bit. I come from a western background, my horses never lugged on the bit even using a d ring snaffle. When I put my leg on her, she speeds up, (she came from a totally different discipline) and so I can't "fault her". I rode her in my last session with a tender touch bit - horrors with curb chain because I just couldn't deal with the pulling that day - my back was acting up pretty bad. That is not a legal bit in dressage but is the bit she was previously ridden in prior to my purchasing her. She was MUCH better but I have to find something suitable that she will "listen" to. I put her in a french link because it is a mild bit, but she acts like it isn't there or that I am supposed to carry her head around. I have "thrown away the reins and that wasn't pretty, she nearly went to her knees - on the plus side, I stayed upright and in position. Trainer thinks a different bit would be more effective as she is a powerful horse but I don't want to try "this and that" and hope something works. Also I am asking if there are "exercises" that we can do that will allow her to stay in a mild bit without changing to a harsher one. I want to do right by Tyr, she is my "I am not scared of her, I love riding her" horse. (after a major wreck, I am a somewhat timid rider but not with Tyr, I think we could do anything!).

(I should have started dressage when I was 20 instead of 50, I think it would have been easier physically, I totally understand why dressage is a lifetime learning experience).

Thanking all of you in advance,
sidepasser and Tyr

[twofatponies]

Does she lug with the trainer? If not, have him/her explain what she is doing differently than you are. Maybe you are hanging on the reins too much?

If she also lugs with the trainer, then I'll leave that to others to offer suggestions...

[TBROCKS]

I've been dealing with this same issue with my horse, but just at the canter. It's been frustrating. He had a month off over Christmas and came back into work acting very resistant when ridden in his normal bit (a loose ring french link snaffle, but the link is a fat piece, not flat). This horse is showing first and schooling second and third level movements, usually accepts contact willingly and stays forward with a lovely trot. After getting his teeth checked and coming up with no problems we finally went back to his "old" bit, a full cheek regular snaffle, which immediately seemed to make him happy, but also resulted in him being more on the forehand...not great, but better than plowing around with his nose in the air. After about 2 weeks, he went from kind of on his forehand to completely lugging down at the canter. REALLY took a lot of leg to keep him up and then it didn't work all the time and it was exhausting. And, like you, we tried the "give up the contact and make him carry himself" technique. This horse likes some contact, and it just didn't work. So, we went back to the loose ring, and honestly, it seemed to fix the problem. He's much much lighter in that bit and his old happy willing self in it. I know what you mean about trying "this and that" but sometimes you do have to experiment a bit to solve the problem.

[Bravestrom]

half halts are your best friend and it seems that she is not listening to them.

We had this problem with my son's very big mare - she was using her weight against him - so we had a very experienced trainer ride her with a very strong bit a few times - they were very careful with the bit and while she did get upset she started to understand the hh better.

It really seemed to help - as now she is listening to the hh with the french link - it was like a switch went off.

and perhaps (flame suit on) you may want to have someone very experienced to ride her in draw reins.

[JumpWithPanache]

I use dressage concepts as the foundation for my H/J mare who goes in a French Link loose ring as well. She tends to lean when she's out of shape but also scoots when you put leg on without holding her head up. My remedy has been to put her into a simple corkscrew snaffle for three or four rides. It has enough bite to it that it's not comfortable to lean on and the half halts are more meaningful. A few days of that, the light bulb goes back on, hind end remembers its job and back to the French link we go :yes:

[sidepasser]

Thanks, I will have to "experiment" and see if going to a regular snaffle would make her an easier ride.

I do wonder though if mechanically I am not riding her forward enough? Although I do have a wonderful trainer who corrects the behavior as soon as she starts, I wanted other's ideas to discuss with him at my next lesson. It helps to have varying points of view and to think outside the norm.

Sometimes changing the bit isn't the only answer.

[IrishDeclan]

I've got a 17.2 hand warmblood gelding who sounds very similar to your mare. Part of the problem with my guy is that he's just turning 6 yrs old, so his balance is still a bit out of whack :winkgrin:. I was trying to ride him in a french link loose ring and he was being VERY heavy with me. We've switched him to a Myler Comfort Snaffle and he's been really happy in it.

[narcisco]

I rode her in my last session with a tender touch bit - horrors with curb chain because I just couldn't deal with the pulling that day - my back was acting up pretty bad.

Many horses don't like the extra "movement" in a French link bit. Your horse is used to more leverage and a curb chain and has not made the transition to a plain snaffle. I don't think changing to a regular snaffle will get you there, yet.

I would ride in the TT where you normally do while your horse learns your leg and seat aids. Then I would move the reins off the shank onto the snaffle part so she can get used to direct contact. Then the chain will be less engaged, and you might be able to go without in a snaffle.

You could also take her to a pelham for a "transition bit" and work your way onto the snaffle rein only. Then, you can change to a different bit.

Your horse does not understand the effects of the snaffle because she hasn't been ridden in one. You can also do some in hand work to teach here what the rein aids mean.

[twofatponies]

Thanks, I will have to "experiment" and see if going to a regular snaffle would make her an easier ride.

I do wonder though if mechanically I am not riding her forward enough? Although I do have a wonderful trainer who corrects the behavior as soon as she starts, I wanted other's ideas to discuss with him at my next lesson. It helps to have varying points of view and to think outside the norm.

Sometimes changing the bit isn't the only answer.

What does your trainer do to correct it - can you do the same thing, or is it too difficult for you right now? Does the trainer rider the horse more forward than you do?

[sidepasser]

Very good ideas about her not understanding the snaffle - it makes sense since she wasn't ridden in one from the start. I will talk to my trainer about your idea Narcisco.

No I can't do what the trainer does - (I wish I could!) but he rides her more forward than I do with a MUCH better seat and more balance than I have. He will halt her and ask her for a step or two back and she will rock back more on her hocks (this is hard to explain) and then he will pat her and ask for the forward walk again and it appears that her weight shifts to the rear and she goes along fine w/o lugging. I am sure mechanically there is more to it than that, but to my untrained eye, after a halt and back up, it appears her shoulders become more elevated, she moves more "uphill" if that is the correct term. He rides with more seat aids than I am capable of so sometimes it appears like "magic" to watch him rebalance her and continue on.

At this point we are asking for "work from the rear, balance, outside rein aids, etc". I liken her to a three year old at this point in her training so we are going slowly with her. I am very proud that she has learned to walk down the long side in a straight line as 8 months ago, she looked like a broken stick..rear going to the outside and head and neck going to the inside. Whoever thought straight line was cause for celebration? Now she walks straight down a quarter line or across the diagonal without looking like she is scrambling about. Another big achievement is she will halt square after months of on ground practice and under saddle practice. For the longest time, she had three legs square and one leg "camped out". If you ask her to bring up the last leg, then it was a mad scramble to go forward or sideways or just curl around the leg so that she was crooked from front to back. Now if I sit down very deep in the saddle, and push my seat bones slightly forward, she halts square.

Half halts..uhm, we are trying to get there. If I get them exactly right, she will slow down but she won't stop pulling if she is in the mode with me, I get the effect of a slow moving roller coaster going down hill. That is another area I am working hard on with Trainer's help.

At the same time, I am having to learn seat position, correct application of aids for dressage, and so forth so we are both "babies" in the dressage arena.

I will ask him about side reins, so far I have never seen him put her in side reins while riding. I am not experienced enough with side reins to ride with them, that would likely be a wreck waiting to happen if I were to attempt it.

Baby steps..whew.

[slc2]

Think of it more as riding and less of as a specific bit. THe trainer can do it because, well, because he rides better. It's a hard pill to swallow, but that's how it is. As you get so you can coordinate your aids and create a great deal of energy so the horse steps up under himself with a big strong step that supports his weight, he will get lighter in the hand. Some horses just have a lot of mass and aren't ever completely 'light', but the more forward, the more coordinated the aids are, the more you can hold then with your back and seat, the better it gets.

Not fun getting there, though. Not fun. Usually, what is preferred, is you gradually ramp up to that type of horse, each time the new horse is just a little more horse, so it's not so hard to adjust to.

[Petstorejunkie]

forward, lateral, forward, lateral. you can't pick up a 200# head so you have to hurry up the hind end to lift the head for you.

[ideayoda]

A french link acts on the tongue, and many horses bear into that. Try a regular single broken snaffle. But the fact is (from what you said) the horse starts out light/in self carriage and you allow/cause/participate in the pulling. Quicker/smaller hh from sitting up/from the horse coming to the hand not the hand to the horse. Not one or two hh, but many many many hh (for your mind and the horses body), but barely imperceptable ones. Remember if you dont hang the horse cannot pull, make it react to you. Depending upon your stage of training, think about inside leg puts horse to outside rein, and hh if you need to do so. Remember for an effective hh the upper arms should be hanging vertically beside the trunk, the hh originates in the (posterior) tilting of the seat (never the hand first), horse rebalances (comes up/open/light/chewing) and the hand relaxes/rewards the changed balance.

[merrygoround]

Sad to rain on your blame the bit parade, ;) but the last two posters have got it right. :yes:

There's no magic in it, just hard calculating work. :cry:

[FlashGordon]

Sounds like less of a bit issue and more of a training/riding issue.

Perhaps also a fitness issue-- I wonder if the mare gets tired as the ride progresses, and is then less able to carry herself.

If you don't give her anything to pull against, she can't do it. I routinely drop horses that pull and they figure it out pretty quick. You have to ride them forward at the same time, however.

Transitions and cavalletti are also good ways to back them off your hand. But first and foremost, I'd get her going good and forward.....

[spaghetti legs]

Sounds like less of a bit issue and more of a training/riding issue.

Perhaps also a fitness issue-- I wonder if the mare gets tired as the ride progresses, and is then less able to carry herself.

If you don't give her anything to pull against, she can't do it. I routinely drop horses that pull and they figure it out pretty quick. You have to ride them forward at the same time, however.

Transitions and cavalletti are also good ways to back them off your hand. But first and foremost, I'd get her going good and forward.....

AMEN AMEN AMEN...

Drop her on her face.

[Gloria]

No I can't do what the trainer does - (I wish I could!) but he rides her more forward than I do with a MUCH better seat and more balance than I have. He will halt her and ask her for a step or two back and she will rock back more on her hocks (this is hard to explain) and then he will pat her and ask for the forward walk again and it appears that her weight shifts to the rear and she goes along fine w/o lugging. I am sure mechanically there is more to it than that, but to my untrained eye, after a halt and back up, it appears her shoulders become more elevated, she moves more "uphill" if that is the correct term. He rides with more seat aids than I am capable of so sometimes it appears like "magic" to watch him rebalance her and continue on.

Yes. You definitely Can do what your trainer do, maybe not that good, but you can certainly strive for that direction. What your trainer do is exactly what this horse needs, tons of longitidual transitions which balance the horse and move her weight toward haunches more.

Trot her three steps (not thirty), ask her to walk, just "before" she transitions to walk, release and allow her to walk forward. Walk three steps, then ask her to trot again, then repeat the process. When you get better, you can add rein back, then whe you get even better, you can try transitions within trot. The important part here is, don't dwell on any single gait for long (3~5 strides the most at the beginning). Frequent transitions are your friend here.

By the way, frequent transitions are hard on unfit horses so you want to give her frequent walk break and add some lateral transitions in between.

[cutemudhorse]

I agree w/Gloria. (And the others.) You can do it! It may not be easy. I have had the same thing with a small TB mare. She seemed to have been trained to really take hold (not OTTB), and dropping her just seemed to encourage her. She could pull me forward out of the tack if she wanted to! It was hard, because I was soft :) but it got better with lots of transitions and better fitness on both parts. Definately my developing better core muscles helped a lot!

I also found a Waterford bit helpful. . . loose ring. . . JMO.

[ideayoda]

A horse cannot pull the rider out of the seat IF the rider is upright with elbows bended, any pulling would just cause the seat to be more into the horse. It has nothing to do with strength, but stability.

[sidepasser]

Mare is not as fit as a horse that has been in regular training for a while, she does get tired, some days I only put 30 minutes on her like today. I take her out for more hacks on the hills to help build her muscling up. Don't want her to dread the arena and want to keep her mind fresh.

I do believe though that folks wanting to learn dressage need more than one lesson a week. I may have to take two a week so I can have the trainer "correct" me more often as it is so easy to fall into bad habits even if I don't know they are bad habits. I think that some longe lessons would be beneficial as well as I have a tendency to lean to the left and have to remember to sit straight, on both seat bones. Yes I need to condition myself better!

I have to give it dressage riders, I've ridden since I was nine years old and now I'm 50, and this is the absolute hardest thing I have ever tried to learn involving horses. All that "action and reaction" makes you have to think..if I do this..it will make my horse do that. I have to learn the right action to get the correct "reaction" from the horse. Thank goodness she isn't real opinionated about things..lol..or she'd dump me in the dirt.

I'll post back in a month to let you know how things are going. Feedback always is useful and for the time being, I will continue in her normal french link snaffle and see if the transitions after 3-5 strides improve things and I will "throw away the reins if she does become a lug" - that does seem to surprise her alot..like "what happened" as she will trip or nearly land on her face.

With western horses I never had to deal with lugging on the bit..you have the opposite, pick up reins horse moves forward, very "light" even in a snaffle. My WP horses worked totally off seat and body position and most of the time reins were never engaged other than a slight finger pull here or there to correct the horse's direction if the horse didn't listen to the weight dropped in the right or left seat bone. I quit WP when horses were expected to trope and push peanuts..mine never did and I couldn't see any reason for it. But the habits of riding western are still here so have to retrain the brain as well as the body for dressage.

Sure is brain wracking though!