How to find a horse with "heart"? [Archive]

mvp

May. 2, 2009, 09:28 PM

Heart can also take a quiet form. It looks like the horse who tries and tries to understand what you want, never getting frustrated or saying no. I have one of these and though he's not going to the Olympics, you can ask him to move cattle in a hail storm and he'll adapt to the job at hand, no questions asked.

I rode a Friesan long ago who certainly had heart. In him that looked like complete willingness to do whatever anyone asked. He was a very well-bred gelding who came from what was then the top Friesan breeding and driving operation in California.

I have met Friesans who are bullies, too. This one had to be led in a stallion ring-- a halter with a steel nose band because he just didn't seem to care what you did to him to try to make him manageable. This horse was sent to the barn where I worked for an old-fashioned Come to Jesus Meeting for 30 days after he double barreled his DQ owner in a stall.

I think one short-term way to learn about heart is to ask the horse to do something that both makes no sense to him and might be a bit scary. Watch his attitude carefully. Saying "Geez, I'd rather not" after a few unsuccessful tries is ok. But if you walk and try again, his willingness should return. The faster it returns, the more heart he has, IMO.

For WBs, the temptation is to "sull up"-- or to decide that they'd rather make you work harder and tolerate more pain than really engage mentally with you. This is the TB-world's reason for calling them "dumb bloods." They are not dumb at all, but using their ability to sublimate pain to avoid work or confusion. I'll take a thinking WB who is tough over a TB who can't think after a traumatic mistake any day.

Merle

May. 2, 2009, 09:32 PM

Thanks guys. I really don't mean to turn this into a breed thing. More of your experiences with getting a horse you thought had heart. :) Had a horse you felt like this with with just one ride? After a year? Years and years and years? Never?

Underdog

May. 2, 2009, 09:42 PM

You don't *shop* for heart.

YOU develop it.
You.

So, YOU got it, or you don't.
JMO.

ASB Stars

May. 2, 2009, 09:43 PM

You know, that is really why I went back to my ASB's, after at least one of everything else. I had two TBs here, when I quit the biz. One was a French bred horse, who had evented, and been a steeplechaser, before I got him. He wouldn't quit on you, but he would get way silly. I had a dressage judge say of him, "This one, he is a powder keg!" The other TB was Canadian bred, and was the first horse I ever put "the tricks" on, myself, but he had been a Medal/MacClay horse before I got him, and he had some bad stuff installed. He got better, but he never forgot all of it.

My ASBs will, to the last one, try their damndest to figure out what I want, and give it to me. They'll ask "do you want MORE?" every time. And they'll figure it out, without going "over the top" as a TB might do, in my experience. The ASBs that I have bred, who have never seen a "show ring" training technique are astounding. They'll wrap their minds around something, and just DO it. The second day that I did caveletti on the longe with Borealis' half-brother, he was dragging me over to them, and bonking right though all five, like a machine.

I LOFF these horses! :winkgrin:

caevent

May. 2, 2009, 10:01 PM

lesson junkie

May. 2, 2009, 10:06 PM

We all know there is as much difference in individuals as there is in breeds. In my very limited, very amateur experience, TBs don't quit-body, mind, and soul. It's up to your horsemanship to figure out how to use the gift they give.

I've been lucky to have a wonderful QH-an Eagle Scout in horsey clothes, and my Dutchman, who is really a Golden Retriever-I love their generous, intelligent, tractable natures. The TBs-they try more.

When hunting the QH and DW, I didn't have to worry about riding them too hard or going too fast-they let me know when they had enough. The TBs will run beyond their limits and be too tired to eat their supper. It's their job to go until I say enough-and that is from their hearts.

Even if you're trying to stay away from being breed specific, any discussion of heart will lead to TBs-it's what they were bred for, after all.

ASB Stars

May. 2, 2009, 10:09 PM

Well, actually, the majority of the ASB forebears were, drumroll please, TBs. Yep, that old Grey Eagle, he was something...

magickmeadow

May. 2, 2009, 10:32 PM

The horses I have had over the years have all been wonderful but the horses that have given me their all have been TB's. My current ride is a 17.2 TB gelding. He is a tad spooky outside but is quiet and gentle with children in the arena and barn. His quirky personality is unlike any other horse I have ever had. He would work for me for 8 hours and then ask if there was something more he could do. Truly a great horse.

exvet

May. 2, 2009, 10:51 PM

I have been very lucky to have had more than one horse with true heart and one was a TB but the others were a variety of different breeds. The only way that I've been able to "tell" has been when I've ridden it. There's just that immediate connection. Of course it doesn't mean that all is immediately roses but I've been able to tell pretty much from the get go if the horse/pony was going to work with me, for me and stay in tuned to me. I have a harder time telling with babies which ones will really have heart. I've raised some from the beginning that I simply did not develop that connection with under saddle; yet, knew what type of personality would mesh with them and then found "their" person. I also agree that heart is developed. You must believe to receive and you must gain their respect and earn that heart. At least for me that is how it always has worked.

FlashGordon

May. 2, 2009, 10:56 PM

Well I guess my own point was that of the horses that have come in and out of my life, the two with the biggest hearts were both TBs.

I find TBs are honest-- with both the good, and the bad. They wear their hearts on their sleeves. This can be both amazing and challenging all at once.

Dan had more heart than any horse I've ever known, right to the end. You could say we were true partners, though at times I felt as if he was carrying me through each ride, and even, through life. He was an old soul, and I suspect that in the 15 short years he was alive many, many people knew him and loved him for his big heart. He had this aura that just drew you in.

Windsor on the other hand, has needed more convincing to come out of his shell. He is compliant, always has been, but he does not bond easily. His "heart" is less apparent but it is there. He's not quite as open or giving as Dan was, but he is courageous, and brave, and willful and those are qualities I admire too. My attachment to him has come as a surprise, given the grief I still feel over Dan's loss.

Maybe it is coincidence that they are both TBs.. dunno. I do feel lucky to have loved these two horses... Very different, yet very much the same in so many ways.

"Heart" can be a hard thing to define and it is probably a little bit different for everyone. Sometimes you find that connection instantaneously, sometimes it evolves as a relationship progresses.

At any rate I hope you find what you are looking for. ;)

anchorsaway

May. 2, 2009, 11:16 PM

My boarding barn is TB central and every last one of them have an enormous amount of 'heart'. And for that matter, TB's seem to have the most try of any breed I've ever owned/ridden/worked with.

However, I think it depends on the rider how much they're willing to give. My own guy is the type that 'as long as you PROMISE I'll be okay, I'll give you 110%' and he does. He likes to think he's much bigger than he really is :winkgrin:

As for knowing when you have 'it'..I think it depends on how quickly a bond is formed and how strong of a relationship is built upon that. I've got one that's smart as a whip(sometimes he's too smart for his own good :) )

I sometimes forget that I really haven't had him all that long because of how much he gives every ride, he truely tries his heart out. Albeit, hitting that TB 'wall' but he bounces back pretty quickly;)

For all these reasons and more, I don't think I'll ever be able to own any thing but a TB again!

Couture TB

May. 3, 2009, 12:20 AM

I will have to second, third, fourth, etc the TBs for their heart. But I have also found other breeds with it. I usually can tell almost right away if a horse has heart. You just feel it when you get on them. That is one of the things that leads me to buy horses that most others would look past due to training issues, and those are the ones that go on to win for multiple riders.

Right now I have the pleasure of having a few different horses with heart, 2 TBs and 3 WBs. One of the WBs is off at a trainers since I had surgery and that is one of the things she comments on the most. His heart. Always trying to please, willing to go that extra bit. Even though he has the movement of a true upper level horse his heart is what makes him stand out to her, and that in the end is going to be what sells him, not just his movement but his heart.

Foxtrot's

May. 3, 2009, 02:28 AM

Kind of a wasted post - like most have said - look for TB blood for intelligence, heart and athleticism.

slc2

May. 3, 2009, 04:41 AM

"How to find a horse with heart"

Buy a sound, appropriate horse, understand its training, limitations and strengths, adjust your riding to him, and learn to ride it the way it needs to be ridden. It will have 'heart'.

Unfortunately, or sadly, here, the definition of 'heart' sounds a lot more like 'I ain't gotta kick much'.

Or, according to the above, heart is purchased on a registration paper, and only certain breeds have it, breed bashing is fine, as long as it takes the form of the Thoroughbred is 'generous' and the warmblood is 'sulled up' and 'doesn't have heart'. And any deficiency in riding the horse is the horse's fault.

My warmblood horses were incredibly generous. One was rather hot and one was a quieter type. Both were wonderful, kind, generous, patient and yes, responsive - very much so.

Whether a horse is quiet or not, does not mean they are 'insensitive'. Actually, I have YET to meet an 'insensitive' warmblood and I have met lots of them. I HAVE met horses with less than ideal conformation and balance, it is not their CHOICE to be that way, or to respond like a poorly built horse, that's what they are. Most are acutely sensitive to something the rider hasn't learned yet - how to not clash their aids. From the 'goey' horses people learn only to hold back, not to go forward. As long as the horse drags them along, they're fine. But the problem is, they haven't learned to time and coordinate their aids.

The idea that they are 'less responsive' or 'just blunt' or 'just can't be quick' is nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Don't blame the horse for what is the rider.

Yeah, yeah I know. I'm gonna get a bunch of you on my back insulting me, saying I know nothing, like riding 'blunt' horses blah blah blah, and that I just 'don't know' because I haven't ridden Thoroughbreds. Bull. I've ridden them all my life. And Arabs, and Morgans, and Saddlebreds and just about everything else. I have just as much right to say what I think as the rest of you, whether I agree with you or not.

My warmblood have both given way, way beyond what their physical endowment was. And they gave generously, despite the inexperienced riding, inconsistent coaching, and everything else they got and DESPITE waiting for me to get over that 'wisdom' that these horses are not able to be responsive.

And they were always, always ready to 'change' (LOL) when the rider was ready to meet them at the next step along the journey. They had learned to just carry me along when I was sick and 'turn it on' when I was more able to ride, saved my rear a million times, and given, and given and given of themselves, generously, responsively, quickly.

I will never, ever again accept that 'certain horses don't have heart', or 'warmbloods sull up'. Never. For a while I accepted that tack shop (and now bulletin board) 'wisdom', and then I realized what's really going on. I've seen it over and over and over, it is how these horses are ridden that makes them 'unresponsive' and 'shut down' and 'ungenerous'.

It's been 20 years or more since I watched a great trainer and rider get on a horse at a clinic - a warmblood - that was refusing to do ANYTHING. Acting horribly. It would NOT go forward, anything but. The audience tisked tisked, 'the rider isn't doing anything wrong, that horse is just so...so horrible!'

The trainer got up on the horse, patted it on the neck, and off they went. From the very first step, horsey is suddenly going around on a light, soft perfectly correct contact on a nice stretched rein, responding to invisible aids. No whip, no spur, and horsey is just cantering along, perfectly calmly, in a nice, easy, freely forward canter.

He rode for about 2 minutes. Some of the most beautiful work I've ever seen in my life, to be honest. So smooth, so effortless, so quiet.

Then he gives the horse back to the rider. In a few seconds, horsey is back just like he was before.

Did the rider and horse not 'click'? Were they not 'bonded?' Some mysterious spiritual connection that's missing? Mismatched 'personalities'? Baloney. Neither did the horse have a brain transplant, nor did the new rider beat the snot out of him to make him go. Did the horse CHANGE?

No he did not. The riding was better. That simple. The trainer had a quieter seat and clearer aids, his rein and seat/leg aids were not clashing with each other. It was a subtle difference, but it was there. And the effect was instantaneous. And I have seen that over and over and over again for years now. Actually, warmbloods are extremely 'sensitive' - to aids that aren't properly timed, are muddled. As we used to say, 'the thoroughbred drags you around on nerves. After that, you have to learn to ride'.

All horses have 'heart'. ALL of them. They are born with it. Then they have it taken away from them, little by little, by riders who ride them inappropriately and then blame the horse for what they themselves produce.

stolensilver

May. 3, 2009, 07:05 AM

While I'm sure there are horses with "heart" in every breed my experience is similar to other posters. Horses with TB brains will give you everything they have got and still keep giving even after they are trying so hard it hurts. I say TB brains rather than full TBs because you can find this high energy electric type of horse in TB crosses.

I've had several ID x TBs and all of them have been good horses. The best is so willing to work you have to protect her from herself because she would undoubtedly keep going until she dropped if you didn't say stop. I've also had several warmbloods and I don't enjoy riding them anywhere near as much. They are somehow blunt to ride. You ask them to do something and a second later they do it. Not immediately, not electrically but in their own time. They do tend to be reliable in their blunt responses so you can factor it into your riding and cover up the fact that they are half a second behind you all the time but it does bug me. I have to always ride my current warmblood first so I don't notice her bluntness so much. If I ride her after the razor-sharp responding ID x TB her slowness and bluntness drive me mad. The odd thing is that this warmblood has developed a work ethic and does try hard but her responses are simply programmed to be slower than those the TB brain delivers. Once you've had a horse who responds instantly to your thoughts anything else just isn't good enough.

For me heart is a horse that will work with all their might no matter what. They work till it hurts and they keep on working. They work till their muscles ache and they don't quit or stop or even slow down. They need to be nurtured because they will work till they break. That is heart and I LOVE IT!

SillyHorse

May. 3, 2009, 10:04 AM

There are two TBs at my barn, and both are what I would call "dishonest." I don't think it has anything to do with their breed, but with their own individual personalitles, their backgrounds, and their present riders, both of whom are fairly timid. Not a good situation.

That said, I've known WBs, QHs, and plenty of other breeds and types that were also dishonest.

I think some horses come equipped with heart; those are the ones you can put an intermediate rider on, trot down to a small fence all wrong, and they will jump it. And do it again. It's a bit harder to recognize it on the flat, I think.

But I believe heart can be developed, coming from a true connection with a horse. When you get on a horse for the first time and inside of 30 seconds you're smiling, that's a good sign.

exvet

May. 3, 2009, 10:18 AM

You know SLC I was in full agreement with you right up until the following, which I believe may have been directed at me?!

Did the rider and horse not 'click'? Were they not 'bonded?' Some mysterious spiritual connection that's missing? Mismatched 'personalities'? Baloney. Neither did the horse have a brain transplant, nor did the new rider beat the snot out of him to make him go.

So I'm a kook, half ass rider for believing and knowing that I do better with certain personalities than others?! The knowledge or acceptance that I can forge a better relationship with certain dispositions/personalities than others and thus take the horse as far as it's physically able to go demonstrates what? That I can't ride every horse out there?! OK, well I don't think I ever claimed such. However, why is that anyone else's experience pales to yours? I've trained "those" mismatched personalities to levels well beyond training level earning respectable scores and sold them on 'cause (a) I knew someone else with a different mind set would enjoy the horse more and (b) this is still my hobby and when I look at getting on a horse as a chore well it needs to find another owner. That doesn't mean it is "bad", I can't ride it or that I'm a cram, jam and kick 'til you drop type of rider (or have you actually seen me ride?) but it does mean that I DON'T WANT to continue to ride it. I see heart as a two way street. The lacking of it isn't that the horse or the rider is bad, they're just not the best match. So "that" horse doesn't possess what I consider to be heart, there is no chemistry. Could it be developed? Sure, but if I already think it will not be a "fun" row to hoe then why put the horse or me through that? There's nothing cosmic, hokey or fake about developing a bond with a horse; but, perhaps you think so 'cause you've never had a real one? I doubt that since you are describing something similar with the two you have..............or perhaps it's that you're one of the few who find "that" with every horse you sit your hiney on. If that's so then, yes, my hat is off to you; but if the reality is that there are certain horses you prefer not to ride, don't ride as well, turn down and choose another 'cause one just turns you on more so well then...................you may not choose to call it heart but I can if I would like 'cause just as you infer, I have just as much of a right to share my experience and interpretations as you do. And I should be able to do so without someone like you coming on here and trying to infer that I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground.

EqTrainer

May. 3, 2009, 10:41 AM

This comment has nothing to do w/breeds at all - I think it is ridiculous to think that all horses are born w/the same amount of rideability and trainability and desire to please and that people ruin it in them. That is like saying all humans are born w/exactly the same personality traits and their parents botch them up so some turn out well and some don't. Having two children (same breeding, repeated) who were born as diametrically opposed human beings, I really don't think you can say that the same raw material is present in each life when it hits the ground :lol:

Heart is a somewhat undefineable attribute and it's going to be a little bit different for each person. My version is going to be different than anyone elses, and so on, and so forth. As far as it developing over time, based on commitment from the rider, again, I think this is a bit reaching... because the raw material is *not* present in all horses.. just like people they are not all the same, but because they are animals we have definers such as "rideability" and "trainability". There is no doubt as to why those terms are used by professionals - they are used because those traits DO exist innately in every horse, and they have more or less of them. It's just life.

One more thought about it developing in a relationship - I have sat on horses for the first time who immediately gave themselves to me, literally while I was adjusting my stirrups. You could make a case that they know who I am before I even get in the saddle - and I think there is some truth in that, they are consummate body language readers - but I also think some horses have that capacity and it is amazing and unfair to them, in a way, to pretend that it doesn't exist. When I sit on a horse like that, I immediately begin to thank the Horse, to thank God, to thank the universe, because that is the stuff that our horse dreams are made of. And it does exist.

I have also ridden and trained horses for years who I enjoy, and I would say we have a good relationship - but not that immediate, intense, amazing "knowing" of each other. I come to like *every* horse I ride and train.. I appreciate them all for who they are and they all have unique traits about them that make them who they are. That is what you really have to learn to be good with, I think.. who they are innately, not who they might become. If you are focused on who they may become then you stand the chance of being disappointed and just isn't optional IMO. That's like being disappointed that your daughter is brown eyed instead of blue eyed.

But back to the subject.. for me, for you, for each individual human being, there is a certain type of horse who is your type, and it is about the feeling you get from them in the saddle. It's not about their gaits or how pretty they are or what color they are or what breed they are - it's about you and him/her and what happens when you interact. And it can as immediate and awe inspiring as a lightening strike.

D_BaldStockings

May. 3, 2009, 11:05 AM

Attempting to respond to the original post, it does not really sound as though you are exactly looking for heart as most people have defined it here. It sounds to me as though you want submission, generosity, a confident nature and an interactive, perhaps even affectionate response to humans.

Despite your user name, you also include the word safe, which has a different connotation in dressage than eventing for sure.

You mention the word click in connection with horses and to me that does imply that you hope for a connection quickly. You also bring up the breed difference concept in your post.

My answer? If a horse appeals to you visually go a step further.
If the horse is responsive or at least polite on the ground go a step further.
If you ride the horse and he suits your aids and the communication is there – correct questions, correct responses then go a step further and ask for something weird. Walk over a pole if the horse has never done that, turn on some rock music loud, run a lawnmower or leaf blower while asking for a transition or ride outside the horse’s normal comfort zone a bit in some way.

You can tell quickly whether your horse will move confidently and with interest toward new experiences while attending to his rider or you will be spending time overcoming evasions and building his confidence. Many people will say you can build heart –of course; but you can build higher faster by starting ahead in the game.

There are horses in most breeds that will have the traits you desire, so if you are attracted to them I would not discount a horse on breed alone. Freisians, Irish breds, Connemara Welsh, Appaloosa are a few that have produced individuals that ‘bond’ and do amazing feats for their riders. If you are a TB person, no other breed will do. My own breed of choice, Saddlebred, is known for having interactive people focused temperament and it is the reason many convert to the breed even if they occasionally stay in the closet about it.

If you like the Freisian, can you be happy riding out of the Warmblood box or are you personally sensitive to what others in the barn think you should be riding?

A horse should suit, and you shouldn’t settle.

slc2

May. 3, 2009, 11:09 AM

Yes, actually, quite a few people do 'ruin' horses, actually, the saying goes, that you always ruin the first few horses you train, so that covers quite a lot (though 'ruin' doesn't mean turn them into alcoholics, it means the basics aren't all there). Some horses, like the one I described, simply require a lot of skill. A local fairly capable pro who had brought a few horses up a few levels, couldn't successfully ride that horse; an internationally medaled pro steeped in traditional dressage, could. Basically, he knew how to separate his aids, to the degree this horse needed.

There IS a difference between how people ride and train. Just because the differences may be subtle, doesn't mean they don't exist. And it is a very, very fine line with some horses. And no, a lot o them AREN'T 'amateur rides', because 'amateur' usually winds up meaning, 'needs a specific kind of horse'.

And NO. I did NOT say personality meshing isn't a factor in success. But what I see, most of the time is not that at all, but that used a politically correct excuse. It is people who can't adjust to another type of horse, and they blame the horse, rather than adjusting their aids, just like people here are insisting, they believe it's the horse's fault. They simply don't know how to adjust their riding. And while I understand that a person who is a nervous wreck and a horse who is a nervous wreck is not the best match, people can indeed learn to adjust to new types of horses and to tune themselves to what the horse needs - if they try.

That is NOT what I said. AT ALL, EqTrainer. I didn't say all horses are born the same, I said exactly the opposite - you didn't read me at all before you responded.

I said horses ARE different, and people have to be able to ride them differently. Horses ARE born innocent and untrained. It's a blank slate. The tough guy learns to work with his rider, the nervous one learns to calm down, that is TRAINING. It either has been done or it has not been done.

I said that a lot of people blame the horse, when the problem really is the rider is not adjusting to the horse. Maybe the person CAN'T adjust, their habits are just too ingrained. But I have ALSO seen people who have been the worst 'matches' in the world for a given horse. They LEARN. They learn to change and ride differently. They learn to calm themselves, to change how they react, to find a new way to ride...MOSTLY they learn more technique, strengthen their positions and find out how to deal with what is happening!

When you condemn a WHOLE BREED or set of registries as 'sulled up' or 'blunt' or thick or innately unable to respond because of 'how they are', and two American breeds are the 'horses with heart', that is the speaker's problem, not the horse's. Not when I have seen over and over, people learn to ride their warmblood horses, with a big smile on their faces, finding out they can be VERY responsive, very quick, and a blast to ride.

I believed this sort of 'tack store truth' for years, and seeing it over and over again, seeing these 'dull' horses turned on, working eagerly and happily, I know now, that it's baloney. You can pick my words apart all you want - I have seen it over and over and over. With just a few little changes and the right guidance these horses can be responsive, eager, quick off the leg.

I know a good many THb people call 'dishonest', because they quit at the jumps or fight the rider. I STILL say it is the training that is at fault.

A stronger more skilled rider, a better start, a less sore back, a less sore set of legs, miracles happen. I know a good many horses that are unresponsive and sullen, and I have never yet seen a one of them that someone could not ride, and very, very well. It is all in the experience and skill and adaptability of the trainer.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

May. 3, 2009, 12:07 PM

Coming from a TB lover.

All horses have different personalities. And I think, if not abused, and capable of trust, they will all give to you, if you demonstrate to them that you are trustworthy.

I think the TB may come across as having more "heart" because, as a breed, they tend to be far more sensitive and reactive. I always know where I stand with my boy (he is never stingy in letting me know when he is happy, content, or PO'd - works all ways!).

And I do not think you need to be a professional or high level rider. Ted's pasture buddy Bow, who came to us as a stallion at age 12 (now not!!), was thought to be ideal for one of my barn mates. My barn friend is now 27 or 28, and was one of my trainer's TH students when younger. She comes once a week. And it is obvious to everyone that Bow (btw, a TB) would do anything for her. It is not so much how she rides him. It is who she is, and who he is, and how they fulfill needs for each other.

Ambrey

May. 3, 2009, 12:21 PM

Buy a Percheron cross!:yes::lol:

pintopiaffe

May. 3, 2009, 12:30 PM

Flash & EQT, what lovely, lovely posts.

I don't think it's a breed thing at all, although some people will 'click' with some breeds/types over others.

I am a baroque sort of girl. I like my little round Arabs, Lusos, etc. I like 'sitn'spin' types.

I learned about heart and honesty when working 12 and 14 hr days on a working Ranch. I learned pretty damn quick which horses *I* wanted to be on when I had to give up entirely and trust them for my very safety and perhaps my life in certain situations. (not one was a TB, but I'm sure a couple had TB blood... ;) )

There WERE certain lines we knew had issues... The Alcapoco's, on particular, were whack jobs--OR the best horse on the Ranch. You had to suss out which though, and we did have HUGE hawthorne bushes that those suckers aimed for when they unloaded you.... The one roany-app line (all ranchbred crosses--no 'breed' bashing in particular!) were small, hardy and would get really stubborn at times. The Princess line, with a good dose of ASB, were awesome for short jobs--comfortable, forward--but got bottomed out on all day things in bad weather. etc.

For me, 'heart' is what I look at as overall temperament. It's not just rideability--but if I say *come*, will the horse trust me and come. My one mare would walk through fire for me. My little medicine hat rescue colt followed me over an ocean of sheer glaze ice after the Ice Storm in '98 when everyone else was terrified to move... My little pinto gelding hopped right on the trailer without a second thought--with half of his insides herniated out his gelding incision... and the LAST time he'd been on the trailer was a couple days earlier FOR the gelding... but he never, ever hesitated. (he'll be my police horse, BTW, in another year or two.) The little Quarab/morgany gelding I borrow now for police work... I've ridden him a handful of times, but that littel guy steps up and is my PARTNER for the day. It is astounding and humbling.

How do you find it? I don't know. I try very hard to BREED it, as it's THE highest criteria on my list, although they really must be able to move and score well and such... but I don't care about ANY Of that if they don't have the mind and heart first...

Maybe you get lucky.

FriesianX

May. 3, 2009, 12:55 PM

I have to agree with the others who say "heart" isn't a breed thing, it is an individual match. Not every horse will give his all for every rider - it is partly getting personalities that mesh, and partly picking the right discipline for the right horse. Some horses aren't suited for dressage, no matter how generous they are, they won't give their all in a discipline that they aren't suited for. Likewise, not all riders can bring out the best "heart" or "try" in a horse.

Some horses are more "generous" than others - although I don't think you can go to a certain breed and always find that, I do think certain breeds are more likely to bond with their riders and try harder. That try comes in different forms though. Tbreds are known for their heart - but also for their run - which means, when push comes to shove, they are bred to run their hearts out for you, NOT sit and collect. Friesians (and most Baroque breeds) generally are bred with more "people" in them - they tend to bond and try hard for their person. But there are exceptions in Tbreds and in Friesians, for sure - good and bad exceptions!

I've also seen many of the WBs who have the talent, but are more likely to shut their riders out - maybe less "try" more raw talent? But again, there are WBs out there that will give their heart and soul to their person. I've seen Morgans who would give all for their people too, others who were just hot and opinionated and wanted to just do their own thing.

I could go on and on - my biggest experience is with Friesians, Warmbloods, Morgans, and Friesian crosses - but reality is, it becomes in individual thing. I think your definition of heart (based onthe original post) is "try" without "panic" - ie a horse who won't get easily flustered and scared. To find that, try horses and pressure them and see how they react - if necessary, bring an experienced trainer who knows how to pressure and assess the reaction. When you find a horse that seems to meet those criteria, the next thing is to become a partner with that horse - and that takes time, patience, and commitment. It takes you believing in your horse, and your horse believing in you. A rewarding, but difficult, journey.

Oakstable

May. 3, 2009, 01:09 PM

I have one incredible boy by Routinier. He is just like his sire for 10s on ability and willingness to work.

He's only had about 35 rides on him. Photos are in my blog.

At the age of three, he was too immature mentally to go to work so I waited until after he turned four.

I see so many young warmbloods ridden with spurs. My rider doesn't use spurs or a whip, and the horse is forward and responsive to the leg and seat.

He went on his first trail ride last week with two QHs. He marched out ahead of them.

Zip puts a smile on our face every day.

narcisco

May. 3, 2009, 05:33 PM

Hearts are made and broken and sometimes mended.

AnotherRound

May. 3, 2009, 09:08 PM

You'll know it when you find it, like a lover. I agree with the TB assesments, that's where I find my connection. My other experiences with "heart" have been with Hancock bred QHs.

Valentina_32926

May. 4, 2009, 08:52 AM

IME, the horses who I have owned and ridden who had the most heart (rideability and trainability, plus that extra desire to work for you) were TB's.

It may just be they suit me, or I suit them, but when I think of horses who will truly connect with you and work with/for you, it's the TB's I remember.

I don't own TBs but I agree - my SWB mare is 1/2 TB and gets her heart from her TB mom. :yes:

contento's mum

May. 4, 2009, 09:27 AM

Heart comes in different shapes and sizes. I've been blessed over the years by Arabians, national Show horses and warmbloods. They may all ride a bit differently but I am always amazed and honoured that these lovely creatures try very hard to do what I clumsily ask of them. My cat cares nothing about pleasing me - my horses do. The arabians I've had would actually continue going until they died if I had pressed. I used to ride distance and had to decide for them what was enough. My National showhorse was, at first glance, not as clever as the full arabs but he gave everything a shot and just had to grow into his big body for longer. An Arabian stallion i rode was full of joy, maybe not as tireless as the mares, but loved me madly. The warmbloods have ranged from large, timid and superreactive - to get the job done unflappable. Horses I have known that were not honest almost always had something about them damaged - their body or their mind.
Sometimes it takes longer than others for horse and rider to get on the same page - and sometimes the rider really can't communicate his wishes due to differences in his or the horses training. But most horses really try. Horses need someone who believes in them, gives them the benefit of the doubt ,asks questions that they understand - and then they have heart.

Movin Artfully

May. 4, 2009, 12:01 PM

I have three young horses. All between 3-4 years old. Wonderful ground manners and similar under saddle training. Which one do you think has heart?

Horse #1- Happy. Canters up to the fence to see you. Lives for his people. Loves being handled. Can be ridden by a child in an arena or open field at any gait and be safe. Comfortable, easy-to-sit gaits- waits for his rider- does not anticipate. Looks to his people for the answers all the time. Beautiful and flashy. Nothing breeding. Not athletic. If the rider fell asleep in the saddle- and woke up 20 minutes later...he would still be doing what the rider last asked him to do.

Horse #2- Quiet. Searches your pocket for treats. Loves to be groomed. Tends to have more whoa than go which is great for a more cautious rider. We use this horse to halter break all of our young horses and to snub up horses being started under saddle. Unflappable. Bred in the purple. Pretty mover. Athletic only when the rider knows how to ask for it. If the rider fell asleep in the saddle- and woke up 20 minutes later...he would have stopped and been standing perfectly still waiting for the next set of instructions.

Horse #3- Intense. A little reserved on the ground. Not interested in treats or grain, makes you catch him in the pasture. Under saddle- So soft to aids- not very many people could ever ride him. This horse reads my mind; I breath the cues. For a novice rider, would be a complete disaster. An athlete to the hilt, very very sharp. If the rider fell asleep in the saddle- he would wake up on the ground.

Each one of these horses has TONS of heart...

It totally just depends on what your definition is :)

petitefilly

May. 4, 2009, 01:09 PM

Kind of a wasted post - like most have said - look for TB blood for intelligence, heart and athleticism.

Most horse these days have TB blood in them. You would be hard put to find a WB without TB in it! IMHO you can ride a horse for ten or twenty minutes and know if you will have that certain something in it that you want to ride again. That certain something is also a part of "heart", and without it you sometimes can have a long row to hoe.

Give yourself to the feeling when you ride a new horse, usually the horse will tell you right off the bat. :)

esdressage

May. 4, 2009, 01:26 PM

I think you sense it in the horse, and I don't think there's any particular breed that has a monopoly on 'heart'…

Also, I think people will have different ideas of what heart is to them. For somebody who events, for example, they'll look for that never-say-die courage and a bold horse who won't back down from a challenge, but will be with them for the whole ride trying his heart out (no pun intended, lol).

That same horse's energy might not be right for another rider, and without an outlet for it, that horse might get restless and spook or misbehave, suddenly not admired for his heart, but chided for being 'edgy'. This quieter rider might find heart in the horse who is ever-steady, who will take care of her on a hack out just as well as he will at a show. He'll do his job without fail, regardless of circumstances, the kind of horse you'd get on to ride out of disaster.

For me, I have found heart in every horse I've owned, and they have all been so different. My first horse was a sweet appy who took me to my first shows, carried me on my first trail rides, and patiently listened to my stories while putting up with endless grooming, fussing and the mistakes of a little girl with her first horse… and she loved me right back, transforming from a retired old mare to a glossy, primped show pony all over again. My second horse was an awesome, gorgeous, safe TB who I swear knew how to "turn it on" for shows and could win anything, blowing everybody away wherever we went and taking perfect care of me the whole time. He was 100% class, body, mind and soul. My third horse was another TB, though very different from the previous. I could have never handled him at the beginning of my riding career but his unlimited energy and courageous drive thrilled me through my college years. That horse would never give up, never stop trying, and had the barn name "Arnold" because he was a POWERhouse! Now I have an Arabian who I adore. Her heart again is different, but it's there in an amazing, unwavering loyalty that brings me peace as I balance motherhood, work and a busy life. Sometimes I wonder if I have just had the perfect horse every step of the way, or if, in return for our own love and respectful, proper treatment of them, they graciously adapt themselves to our needs as well as they can. That would be heart, indeed.

Oldenburg Mom

May. 4, 2009, 01:43 PM

You don't *shop* for heart.

YOU develop it.
You.

So, YOU got it, or you don't.
JMO.

Yup, I believe that wholeheartedly! AND, one of the contributing factors to a horse developing heart is kindness, patience, and TRUST. Trust is the most important thing ... once the horse has it, IMHO, he ... or better yet, SHE, will try try try try and try for you ... She may not be able to succeed, ... but she'll try!

GettingBack

May. 4, 2009, 01:50 PM

It does very much depend on you, but I've experienced the most heart with TBs. Yes I had one that was hot and flaky, and others that were mild, but every single one of them tried their d*mnedest all the time to make me happy and figure out what I wanted them to do. Usually they try so hard, you spend a significant amount of time trying to make them realize that just because you cantered at that spot in the ring last time, does not mean that you want to this time as well.

I've had a lot of other horses without the type of heart I speak of, although they were all special in their own way...

Arab - Jumped the moon and loved dressage - had a tendency to blank out and turn into whack when things got bad

Morgan - His whole personality was "Not unless you know how to ask me". I loved him to death but I think he thought he was smarter than people (and he was most likely right).

QH - Great horse, very obedient - did seem like a golden retriever in a horse body - would do whatever I asked him, yes, but no more.

1/2 TB, 1/4 Perch, 1/4 QH - Personality much like the QH - nice and solid, willing, but if push came to shove he'd be looking to me for direction

1/2 Paint 1/2 Belgian - Reactive and hot - totally insecure horse who would blow up and or quit if he didn't understand

Appy Mare - Great horse, had been a broodmare for years - knew she was smarter than me - would save my butt any time, but ask her to do more than she wanted to do? Uhhh no.

Dutch gelding - Ask wrong and you got a solid middle finger (and usually dumped). He'd try as long as he wasn't remotely in pain, inconvenienced, too hot or too cold. If he didn't understand he'd shut down completely. A total and utter diva.

TB Gelding - Solid solid guy - very good boy - yea, kinda freaky about new experiences but always tried, even when he was sore from a foot issue (we didn't find it for awhile because he didn't show symptoms)

TB Mare - FLAKE. Serious flake. Spooked at everything, but she tried her hardest. She found jumps terrifying - but if I asked her to, she'd do it (I swear she put her head way up in the air and ran at it with her eyes closed). Water and the vacuum made her quake in her shoes, but she'd stand there like "okay, if you really want me to". Did get much better about her spookiness and jumping after some patient work - but she never quit, that's for sure.

TB Gelding - TOTALLY awesome horse. Will do whatever it is I ask him to, whenever. He's had very little training except his track training, but lessons hardly ever have to be repeated. Yes, he does get cranky when he doesn't understand, but he tries and he tries. He's not hot, but he is sensitive, if I lighten my thighs slightly we trot, if I sit deep we canter - this is with no training other than track training - just my riding for two months. I have complete and utter faith in him that he will save me if worse comes to worse while riding - he will do his best, all the time.

I love the TBs. I've ridden many breeds, and owned the breeds above (plus more), but the thoroughbred can't be beaten for "heart".

TrotTrotPumpkn

May. 5, 2009, 12:34 PM

Not to sound like a broken record or anything, but I've ridden lots of different kinds of horses (breeds, backgrounds, etc.) and when you asked about heart it just so happens that the two horses that come to mind that had great heart were off the track thoroughbreds. Now my current thoroughbred, even though I've had him for a year, hasn't given me his yet--I'm still working on it.

One would jump a fence no matter how crappy a job I did riding up to it. That horse had heart and guts. He was also a little crazy and hot, possibly had kissing spine...but he definitely had heart.

The other was a lover, honest to fences, hard working and so on. He was a school horse at the barn where I took lessons and he was the most willing wonderful animal. You could tell he'd been ear twitched but other than that he was a saint to be around. To the point that no one realized one late summer he wasn't dropping weight because of "stomping flies" but because he was full of cancer and bleeding out internally. He showed in 3 flat classes and 2 over fences, probably in terrible pain, on a Saturday the month before he was put down. Never complained, refused, or acted out. He wasn't my horse, but I still feel quite terrible about all of it and it was years ago. He was a great horse.

Actually I have to come back. I remember one (Polish) Arabian mare that was quite amazing as well. She LOVED her owner and took good care of everyone who rode her.

I think it all comes down to how you define heart. I define heart as bold, brave, and willing to give all they have and then more.

dressage fan

May. 5, 2009, 01:19 PM

I don't think it's a question of breed at all but more an individual thing and a connection between and individual horse and rider. Different riders have different skills, behaviors, and personalities and may connect better with some horses than others. Very experienced and highly developed riders have probably learned a lot of different tools and techniques to communicate well with a variety of horses.

But, the style of riding you do may require different physical characteristics and may certainly lead to different breeds of horses.

Also, back to the original post who said she wanted to feel connection and to feel safe - I'm not sure everyone uses the term "heart" to describe that.

I hope you find what you're looking for.

sid

May. 5, 2009, 02:00 PM

"I define heart as bold, brave, and willing to give all they have and then more."

That's my definition as well. In my experience, some horses are just born this way. You can even see it when they are growing up and even more when you start working with them seriously.

You'll feel it and see it when you've found one.

Merle

May. 5, 2009, 04:08 PM

Thank you all for your posts. I really appreciate them. Some of them are just beautiful and hit the nail right on the head. ;)

I suppose, after all, that I am looking for a horse that I connect with more than I am for a horse with heart. I am more than convinced now that any horse with the right rider can develop (or immediately have) a wonderful relationship and the rider can respect that the horse has heart.

okggo

May. 6, 2009, 01:33 PM

I think you can just tell, and it doesn't have to be under saddle. The ones that justs radiate the desire to please, learn quickly, and give 110%.

I agree with sid, you can just tell.

lizathenag

May. 6, 2009, 01:34 PM

two thoughts

American TB

Give him your heart.

Icecapade

May. 6, 2009, 03:48 PM

I'm an Arab person, and I've almost run my horse to the ground b/c I didn't know.. he kept giving, there was no 'default shut down switch'

of course my bad for not paying enough attention to detail, I fully take blame, between weather not riding as much and the work we were doing it was asking an awful lot. I was young and dumb. :no::no:

But he did it with great finesse and pride. And he always gives me when I ask... even if he is pretty broken off, he tries one last time.

But he isn't a show arab, he is old school stock that looks... well... not 'araby' lol.

A lot of older blood has a lot of 'heart but thats if you know how to give and take... I agree also that to gain access to that YOU must possess the give/take respect/trust qualities to access it. Some horse's dont' have any try no matter how much of a heart rider you are... they just don't have it.

I find it isn't the 'breed' persay but the breeding... horses breed strickly for one thing... one small item, like a smaller nose, or smaller feet or flatter croup or higher front end action or pretty colour. Of any breed- the horse that comes from a breeding program so isolated, tend to lack a lot of the depth of a good horse.

Good personality is genetic... and if you have a raging maniac dishonest anything, chances are high you can get that in your youngins....

so look for the horses you like that have good traits that you like and then reserach what people have to stay, and this is very nitty gritty for the average horse owner, but I believe its well worth the effort.

just my half cent... =)

vandenbrink

May. 7, 2009, 08:14 AM

It doesn't have much to do with breed. I think:

1. It's a horse's own character, his willingness, his boldness to be able to go the extra mile when you want him too.

2. A lot has to do with the relationship between horse and rider. If you bond well and the horse trust you, respects you and wants to work for you. You have to earn that trust and respect and you cannot let him down. If you make too many mistakes in your riding and even in day to day handling, shipping, his care etc, you'll compromise that trusting relationship.

3. I also firmly believe it has a lot to do with how a horse is raised. If from day one they have a positive relationship with people of trust and respect they are easier to break, easier to bring along, and naturally look to people for help and support. That type a horse will naturally have more "heart" and want to give that extra 10% for that relationship.

TWF

May. 7, 2009, 08:29 AM

I have to say, in my experience with some of the less "modern" warmbloods, they seem to have all the talent in the world, but are very stingy in dishing it out! Kind of like "I'm too good to sweat, why should I try harder?" Whereas those horses with more "blood" tend to offer a lot more of their "heart." Yes, it is something that must be developed over time, but I think it's a more natural generosity that the TB's display. The perfect horse has a mix of the warmblood athlete and the TB heart.

Jimmy Wofford also says to find the "look of eagles" in their eye. :)

Ditto.
Look for a long time breeder. You'll find we don't waste time breeding a mare who doesn't have something special. If she isn't producing "heart" and in turn the best in performance the breeder will pass on the mare.
I love the WB/TB crosses for the soul and inner gift of enjoying thier "job". A horse (or rider) that is strictly mechanical .....isn't gifted. Personally I found the "look of eagles" is present at birth in the truly great one!

classicsporthorses

May. 7, 2009, 09:03 AM

B2E, I had sent you an email inviting you out to visit the farm-we are 20+ miles from Ithaca (Cornell). I don't know if you got it. The offer still stands.

I think too that its the personal relationship one had with their horse(s). I have crosses (Percheron/TB) as well as Warmbloods of European descent-the old lines.

I make it a point to have lasting relationships with my horses. When training horses come in we work on the horse/human bond first.

Two of my boys, one a gelding and one a stallion are 1/2 brothers. I have had both since their birth. They are Percheron (they share a Percheron sire) TB's. While they both "tolerate" other riders-and they have had few except me, it is so apparent, not only to me but others as I ride them, that they give so much more for "mommy". They are clearly happiest with me on/with them.

Even the Police horses we have ride differently for others then me. One in particular, well I only ride him now-he's very picky.

My point being just like a relationship with a human or a love affair, you have to develop, nurture it, set the boundaries, expectations and respectfulness that goes into any relationship. I cannot stress this enough. Sometimes I don't ask my horses to "do" anything but just "be" and let them figure me out.

Bats79

May. 7, 2009, 09:25 AM

I don't own TBs but I agree - my SWB mare is 1/2 TB and gets her heart from her TB mom. :yes:

How do you know that? Maybe she gets it from her father's mother. Are you assuming that the sire's side of the family has no heart.

The early performance test of the Holsteiner Verband included that pulling of a weighted sled. The only thing the handler was allowed to do was speak to the stallion to ask him to pull. This exercise was designed to test the stallion's "heart", his willingness to try without a reason, just on the voice of the handler.

After I'd been 6 months in plaster and my leg had wasted away, the first horse I got on was our Australian Stockhorse gelding. He was a bit of a "clever" bugger, hard to catch at times, difficult to load in the trailer but NEVER took advantage of a rider. He carted tiny juniors and ambitions seniors around cross country courses and he gave me back my confidence with both gentleness and spirit. Yet he made me chase him around the paddock to be caught.

My first serious dressage horse was a Holsteiner colt we bred. With the help of a few weekly clinics per year and some visits overseas to trainers we went to Grand Prix without a coach. My horse was my coach - we went the whole way on his heart because if he hadn't been with me I'd have never got there on my own.

As an above poster said - horse's hearts are nutured and made, sadly sometimes broken and still less frequently mended again. But they are there in every breed and type of horse just waiting for the right person to awaken them. It also runs stongly in families. :)

SmartAlex

May. 7, 2009, 10:49 AM

The ASBs that I have bred, who have never seen a "show ring" training technique are astounding. They'll wrap their minds around something, and just DO it. The second day that I did caveletti on the longe with Borealis' half-brother, he was dragging me over to them, and bonking right though all five, like a machine.

I'm just catching this topic... on rainy days, my ASB and I stay inside and do some trick training/trail obstacles to keep his mind occuppied. I had set up TWO ground poles one day a month ago, and rode him over. When I found poles on sale, I stocked up, laid out four, turned Grey loose in the arena. He took one look at the darn poles, trotted through them (loose mind you) as if he had done it all his life, then came trotting up to me to ask if that was what I wanted. SMART doesn't even begin to cover it. He wants to figure out what I want, then he wants to do it as well as he can.

veebug22

May. 7, 2009, 11:01 AM

I've never owned an ASB, but I have some good friends in harness racing, and I am truly amazed by them. My friend is a trainer, and brings her harness horses home and puts them under saddle. She often has them out on the trail and in fields their third time under saddle, and they handle it like pros. I know that they are already somewhat broke due to the harness racing, but really -- I can't believe how sane and gung-ho they are about it!

Personally, I've found that the horses that gave a bit extra were generally a little hotter too -- TBs, Arabs, etc. I love that line by (I think) Lendon Grey that the most difficult horses often have the most to offer. I find that the ones with big personalities and a bit of fire usually offer the most in the long run. I agree it has to do with their relationship with you and humans in general, and the trust factor. If they like their job and trust you completely, chances are they'll push themselves when the going gets tough.

ASB Stars

May. 7, 2009, 11:08 AM

Veebug...Standardbreds- like the trotters and pacers at the race track- are not the same breed as ASBs (our short hand for American Saddlebred). They do have some ancestors in common though! :yes:

Carry on!

graustarkian

May. 7, 2009, 06:20 PM

Veebug-

I know just what you mean about the standardbreds - I bought a 16yo mare who'd never been ridden. After ground driving her a few times to make sure she had steering and brakes, we headed up the dirt road I lived on and through a lumber yard with skidders everywhere!! She never batted an eyelash.

She didn't care for arena work at all, though, and none that I've know before or after her cared for it, either. But a better pleasure/trail horse cannot be found, IMHO.

Arabians or Arabian/Standardbred crosses have just been what I've clicked with over the years. I've had personalities all over the map, but every one has made me a better horseman. I breed and raise my own Arabians now, because after so many failures with horses with serious baggage, I want to make sure their handling is right from day one.

doccer

May. 7, 2009, 07:51 PM

You don't *shop* for heart.

YOU develop it.
You.

So, YOU got it, or you don't.
JMO.

I've just been thinking about this too... I have a new project horse, and have a 'barely there' connection with her (she's tb/wb).

And then there's my old guy - who i've had for 15years - who gives 200%... whether he's not feeling well or lame ... he'd do anything i asked (within reason lol) and we're completely and truly 'connected' to one another... whether ground handling or riding.

I hope the breed thing is true... but it's all new... good replies

InsideLeg2OutsideRein

May. 7, 2009, 09:47 PM

You don't *shop* for heart.

YOU develop it.
You.

So, YOU got it, or you don't.
JMO.

Hm. I wouldn't think that at all. As someone else said, I think to a large part it's a compatibility issue, but there are horses who naturally will try harder than others (just like people). I don't have an answer for the OP though (sorry), but enjoy reading this thread :)

bort84

May. 7, 2009, 11:18 PM

Hm. I wouldn't think that at all. As someone else said, I think to a large part it's a compatibility issue, but there are horses who naturally will try harder than others (just like people). I don't have an answer for the OP though (sorry), but enjoy reading this thread :)

Yeah, I would agree that some horses do have that "heart" factor that makes them different - they aren't all born with it. They are interested in giving themselves to you even if the job isn't always easy. Obviously this definition will vary a bit from person to person, and compatibility is certainly important to the success of a team.

I don't think every horse starts out with "heart," but I do think some riders will be more capable of getting to certain horse's hearts. I've had and worked with a lot of great horses that I got along with and had success with that I don't know had any more "heart" than most horses. I think it's a matter of degree. Most horses have some heart (that's why we love them so), some have a lot, some don't have nearly as much, haha.

I showed/worked one horse that I was particularly successful with in saddle seat, but we called him a counterfeit = ) He looked pretty but had very little desire (heart?). I rode him for 5 years, and at some point during those 5 years, we became a great team. We won a lot of ribbons (probably one of my most successful horses in saddle seat), but I never would have said he had heart. He gave me what he could, but he was a bit, um, gutless? I got to where I understood him perfectly and he got to where he was quite happy to have me on his back. However, he never had what I'd call "heart." He had the conformation and the training to do the job well, and he did pretty well, but he didn't have that little bit extra.

I also had a mare that I swear would have run herself into the ground for me. She was a tough ride, but I loved that mare to pieces for her try. She had guts (heart?), and she was a blast though one of the more difficult horses I've worked with. It's something a little different for each person, but I think most people would have gotten on each of the horses I described and chosen the same as me when asked which had more "heart."

So, I would agree to some extend that the definition of "heart" varies from person to person, but I don't know that it's that different. Some horses really don't have it. Some horses will give it to nearly any rider. Some horses will only give it to the right rider. But there's certainly something to this "heart" thing = )