spin-off: Evasions and "getting out of work"

[Fantastic]

Who hasn't heard someone say, "Oh, that's an evasion. He's just doing that to get out of work!"? I am curious where this train of thought comes from? I think maybe discplines other than dressage might use this terminology? Is this just a figure of speach for lack of a better explanation and understanding? OR, Does this comment typically comes from someone who doesn't understand equine psychology, or someone who is new to the horse world, or new to dressage, or is it something else?

Do horses really make a plan to "get out of work"? Do their brains have the ability to process thoughts this way?

Example: Bucking
Horse bucks every time rider asks for canter. "They very quickly learn they can use bucking as an evasion to get out of going forward, or anything else." Really? So the horse thinks - "If I buck, I won't have to work." Can horses really think that way? OR, is the rider not taking responsibility; it's something physical - saddle fit, back pain, rider jabs horse with spur, horse has ulcers - OR, is it something mental - "because the above happens each time I canter, my reaction is to try to get this "thing" off my back"??? (fight or flight)

(hopefully you get my drift, and I don't have to site more examples of horses planning to avoid work:rolleyes:)

From dictionary.reference.com:
e⋅va⋅sion   /ɪˈveɪʒən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-vey-zhuhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. an act or instance of escaping, avoiding, or shirking something: evasion of one's duty.
2. the avoiding of an argument, accusation, question, or the like, as by a subterfuge: The old political boss was notorious for his practice of evasion.
3. a means of evading; subterfuge; an excuse or trick to avoid or get around something: Her polite agreement was an evasion concealing what she really felt.
4. physical or mental escape.
5. an act or instance of violating the tax laws by failing or refusing to pay all or part of one's taxes.


OK. So #5 definately does not apply to the horse; horses don't pay taxes!:lol:

So what do these people really mean who make these statements? Do their horse's have different mental abilities than mine do - Do they truely believe that horses "plan" things, or are they using this as an excuse (their own human evasion:D) for their lack of understanding the nature of the horse, lack of good riding and training - to cover up their mistakes and blame it on the horse?

What do you all think about this?

[slc2]

I think it's rot.

:lol::lol::lol:

Ahhh...'evasions' and 'resistance', the happy place for the 'it's the damned horse's fault' rider.

Why is it an 'evasion' when the horse pops his shoulder to the outside because 1. the rider doesn't have a proper connection through either of the reins 2. the outside rein is hanging down like a dead eel. Why is it a 'resistance' when you bend the horse incorrectly, and he don't bend?

Why is it an 'evasion' when one has some gaping hole in one's riding and the horse falls through it? If the horse isn't being ridden correctly, who is surprised if it starts to drift out the gate, travel crooked or act like...well... a donkey.

Horses buck, at the basis of it, because they are not going forward, they're fresh, something is pinching them. They buck in learning changes, not because they have lost their frigging moral compass, but because they don't know how to do a change, and most likely, because you never got one hind leg as supple and fit as the other for the last couple years of training, you just didn't notice til you tried to do a flying lead change.

It is not a conscious 'evasion'. Horses are 'I do this because i am ridden like this'. They do something that way a couple thousand times, eureka! It becomes a habit. The only question for us is, what do we need to do different.

It's basically just 'when you put in slugs, warts, fungus, you don't get a very nice cake. Try using flour, butter, eggs instead'.

[Tiffani B]

I think there are two ways a horse can become evasive.

First way, the horse has a REASON for doing said behavior. (Back hurts, tack doesn't fit, they don't understand, etc).

If it's not handled correctly that FIRST TIME, and progresses to a second, third, etc time, it becomes a learned behavior. We are training the horse to respond incorrectly on cue.

Once the problem is fixed, but they continue to do it, it is then a HABIT. Habits can be broken...

If it is not broken, they have the opportunity to discover evasion. IF they realize that, oh hey, that doesn't hurt anymore, but they do it anyways - and you don't correct it immediately... They learn to evade.

The other way I think they learn evasion is when they are naturally very alpha personalities. I believe horses, and pretty much all animals, are constantly trying to become the leader of the pack. The herd order is stable, but each horse is trying to gain the next spot - some try harder than others. They will test and test and test those boundaries. Some horses will give you a pass - they won't test all the time, or won't take the opportunity to become the leader. They are more passive/submissive - but over time, if you are constantly a weak rider or handler, they eventually will sigh and say "ok fine, I'LL be in charge." Other horses, who are more alpha in personality, are always poking at the envelope trying to find holes and THOSE are the ones who, if you are not always 100% on top of your game, will learn evasive behaviors.

I think those behaviors are their way of trying to "one up" you and take over the ride. The second they feel your mind wander or you don't correct an attitude, you have opened the door.

In summary, yes, I believe a horse can learn evasion. No, they don't PLAN and SCHEME and say "ok, when we get to the corner I'm going to start trotting sideways and meander into the center and no matter what she does I won't go back to the rail." But they are VERY quick to read body language and the MOMENT a door opens up, if you have a horse who is slightly dishonest or wily or fearful or mistrusting, they will take it.

But regardless - it is ALWAYS the rider's fault. :) JMHO.

[Kementari]

Whatever you want to call it, there are certainly learned misbehaviours.

If a horse bucks, and the result is that the rider is scared and so stops asking him to work, then the horse can learn that bucking=not having to work. It's training, just like teaching a horse the proper behaviours. (And it is also the rider's fault, of course. ;))

If, on the other hand, the horse bucks and the rider says "no!" and keeps right on going, he (horse) hasn't gotten out of anything, so the conditioning isn't there. In that case, if the horse keeps bucking every time, I'd be looking and soundness, saddle fit, rider's seat, etc.

[EqTrainer]

I think there are two ways a horse can become evasive.

First way, the horse has a REASON for doing said behavior. (Back hurts, tack doesn't fit, they don't understand, etc).

If it's not handled correctly that FIRST TIME, and progresses to a second, third, etc time, it becomes a learned behavior. We are training the horse to respond incorrectly on cue.

Once the problem is fixed, but they continue to do it, it is then a HABIT. Habits can be broken...

If it is not broken, they have the opportunity to discover evasion. IF they realize that, oh hey, that doesn't hurt anymore, but they do it anyways - and you don't correct it immediately... They learn to evade.

The other way I think they learn evasion is when they are naturally very alpha personalities. I believe horses, and pretty much all animals, are constantly trying to become the leader of the pack. The herd order is stable, but each horse is trying to gain the next spot - some try harder than others. They will test and test and test those boundaries. Some horses will give you a pass - they won't test all the time, or won't take the opportunity to become the leader. They are more passive/submissive - but over time, if you are constantly a weak rider or handler, they eventually will sigh and say "ok fine, I'LL be in charge." Other horses, who are more alpha in personality, are always poking at the envelope trying to find holes and THOSE are the ones who, if you are not always 100% on top of your game, will learn evasive behaviors.

I think those behaviors are their way of trying to "one up" you and take over the ride. The second they feel your mind wander or you don't correct an attitude, you have opened the door.

In summary, yes, I believe a horse can learn evasion. No, they don't PLAN and SCHEME and say "ok, when we get to the corner I'm going to start trotting sideways and meander into the center and no matter what she does I won't go back to the rail." But they are VERY quick to read body language and the MOMENT a door opens up, if you have a horse who is slightly dishonest or wily or fearful or mistrusting, they will take it.

But regardless - it is ALWAYS the rider's fault. :) JMHO.


Ditto. To summarize, you are always training, whether you know it or believe it. So yes, horses do learn that it is to their benefit to be evasive under certain circumstances.

[Tiffani B]

One of my favorite trainers said, "Don't practice mistakes." Basically, any time a horse gives you the INCORRECT response to a cue, whether it's simply taking the wrong canter lead or a full blown explosion of a buck, and the scenario repeats itself the second time you cue - you are now practicing (and reinforcing - which equals TRAINING) a mistake.

[Ambrey]

I think you're assuming a level of planning and conciousness that just isn't required for an evasion to be learned!

True or false- you can train a horse to do something (bow, nod, etc) by use of treats? That's "positive reinforcement." If you give a horse a treat every time they do something, they will learn to repeat that thing. Humans learn this way as well, not only consciously but on a very subconscious level.

The removal of an unpleasant stimulus ("getting out of work") in response to a behavior is called "negative reinforcement." It works the exact same way that positive reinforcement does. The brain learns that when _x_ happens, the unpleasant thing goes away, so repeats _x_. You even see it in mice in psych labs.

Negative reinforcement is also at the core of much of dressage training... "when the horse does _x_, release the pressure."

So indeed, there's a clear path for learning evasions if you allow them to work. Just like you can train by using positive reinforcement (treats and praise) or punishment (the whip, harsh words, a bump on the rein), you can train with negative reinforcement (removing a stimulus that is unpleasant). And any time you do one of these things, you are training.

(no, don't ask me why I know all of this stuff and can apply it to kids and sticker charts but my horses are still obnoxious little ^%$#s).

[slc2]

"when the horse does _x_, release the pressure."

The biggest misconception you have.

[Ambrey]

"when the horse does _x_, release the pressure."

The biggest misconception you have.

I do? How do YOU train? You release the pressure before you get the desired response?

[mvp]

Yes, horses think about how to evade "work," or really pain and that might include effort or confusion. But we did selectively breed the ones who were willing to show up and try or "work." The "good horse" is the one who seems pliable and willing to participate in our plans.

Yes, horses also live for the moment which is precisely why they seek to optimize their moment-to-moment experience as best they can. Again, the "good ones" are capable of delayed gratification and bargaining. The really good ones internalize our goals and do better than we ask or save our bacon.

Both the ability to think in relatively complex terms, and to systematically look for the easiest answer makes them quite trainable. Our job is to figure out how to negotiate with them in terms they can understand.

[MelantheLLC]

"when the horse does _x_, release the pressure."

The biggest misconception you have.

SLC, this is by no means a misconception. It's the means you are training with whether you know it or not, because negative reinforcement (timed release of an aversive stimulus) is the way dressage training, or any traditional horse training, works.

Possibly you have the misconception that rein contact is pressure, and that when someone is using the word in a behavioral sense they only mean let go of the rein. No, in this case "pressure"="any aversive stimulus."

It's too bad the terms used in behavioral learning are confusing, and they are. You can maintain contact, make it stronger, make it lighter, all of that, and still be using negative reinforcement. The key is the concept of shaping. Good horsemen have always used this whether it's how they described it to themselves or not.

However, to try to explain it all in one post would be like trying to explain how to train dressage in one post.

[Ambrey]

Thanks, Melanthe :) Shaping and "progressive approximation" are constant themes I see in dressage training. Most of the dressage trainers that I know or read prefer positive and negative reinforcement to punishment (not that punishment is never used, but sparingly).

I like it because it meshes with my other training ;)

[twofatponies]

I think there are two ways a horse can become evasive.

First way, the horse has a REASON for doing said behavior. (Back hurts, tack doesn't fit, they don't understand, etc).

If it's not handled correctly that FIRST TIME, and progresses to a second, third, etc time, it becomes a learned behavior. We are training the horse to respond incorrectly on cue.

Once the problem is fixed, but they continue to do it, it is then a HABIT. Habits can be broken...

If it is not broken, they have the opportunity to discover evasion. IF they realize that, oh hey, that doesn't hurt anymore, but they do it anyways - and you don't correct it immediately... They learn to evade.

The other way I think they learn evasion is when they are naturally very alpha personalities. I believe horses, and pretty much all animals, are constantly trying to become the leader of the pack. The herd order is stable, but each horse is trying to gain the next spot - some try harder than others. They will test and test and test those boundaries. Some horses will give you a pass - they won't test all the time, or won't take the opportunity to become the leader. They are more passive/submissive - but over time, if you are constantly a weak rider or handler, they eventually will sigh and say "ok fine, I'LL be in charge." Other horses, who are more alpha in personality, are always poking at the envelope trying to find holes and THOSE are the ones who, if you are not always 100% on top of your game, will learn evasive behaviors.

I think those behaviors are their way of trying to "one up" you and take over the ride. The second they feel your mind wander or you don't correct an attitude, you have opened the door.

In summary, yes, I believe a horse can learn evasion. No, they don't PLAN and SCHEME and say "ok, when we get to the corner I'm going to start trotting sideways and meander into the center and no matter what she does I won't go back to the rail." But they are VERY quick to read body language and the MOMENT a door opens up, if you have a horse who is slightly dishonest or wily or fearful or mistrusting, they will take it.

But regardless - it is ALWAYS the rider's fault. :) JMHO.

I'd pretty much agree with that. I didn't answer the poll, because I think this answer is more what the answer is - they do get into habits, by discovering flaws in the rider's responses, but they don't plot and plan in advance.

I rode one darn schoolie who had been able to trot out the gate so many times because beginners had holes in their riding that it was a beast of a job to intervene and keep her going. She just watched for openings, and went for them. But if a more advanced rider corrected her a few times she'd stop trying until the next beginner lesson.

[merrygoround]

The horse that rears, the horse that balks, the horse that refuses, for whatever reason is resisting or evading. Usually it is a case of rider error, especially if the resistance repeats.
He is living in the moment, and at that moment he says NO!. The thinking rider plans ahead, avoids it or deals with then and there.

[Fantastic]

Thanks for all of your responses. I got caught up being held Farm Hostage, and now I must watch The Kentucky Derby!:yes:

[Ambrey]

The horse that rears, the horse that balks, the horse that refuses, for whatever reason is resisting or evading. Usually it is a case of rider error, especially if the resistance repeats.
He is living in the moment, and at that moment he says NO!. The thinking rider plans ahead, avoids it or deals with then and there.

But I think there are instinctive/reactive evasions and there are learned evasions.

The idea is, if the horse bucks due to a reaction or instinct, and you reinforce that by letting up on work, the horse then becomes bucking as a "habit" in because the brain has made the link between bucking and the removal of the unpleasant stimulus (work).

At least, that's what basic operant conditioning theory would say (that by "reinforcing" the bucking you would increase the frequency of the behavior). I haven't read this entire site, but the initial parts I've read are really good and quite clear on how operant conditioning works with animals (and the wikipedia page on operant conditioning kind of sucks).

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/#Operant

[Tiffani B]

So wouldn't the ultimate "evasion tactic" be cooperating? Many trainers believe in the "quit on a good note" theory, yet I have heard many people say that doesn't work. But using this logic, it WOULD work. (I'm on the fence.)

Or is the horses' mental state at the time that ultimately is what teaches them the lesson? Do they learn more when they don't WANT to learn, but are "made" to, or do they learn more when they are unknowingly cooperating and there is no confrontation?

[mvp]

Yes! Cooperating is the ultimate evasion tactic, if you have really done a good job with training your horse to accept training.

A very good cowboy told me once: "From the minute I get on a horse, I'm looking for a reason to get off." That means he's thinking hard all the time about teaching the most he can in the least time. From the horse's perspective, that means the horse tries really hard because he knows that when he gets something right, it's Miller Time.

This is the trainable horse who is "right there" trying to learn all the time. I try to teach any horse I ride that there is always a right answer to be found-- one that makes his or her life instantly easier. With that idea installed (and it takes a while) you can get anything done.

[Ambrey]

So wouldn't the ultimate "evasion tactic" be cooperating? Many trainers believe in the "quit on a good note" theory, yet I have heard many people say that doesn't work. But using this logic, it WOULD work. (I'm on the fence.)

Yes, if you time the quitting right! If you always let them rest, quit, etc., after cooperation, they'd (hopefully) learn that!

But of course WE have our own learning mechanisms, and evasion tactics that our brains play on us, so we have to be very conscious to quit while we're having fun rather than wait until the fun runs out ;)

[Sithly]

The question in your original post, "Do horses really have "evasions" and do things to get out of work?" does not really correspond with the answers in the poll. Horses can absolutely learn evasions, but that doesn't mean they plan them out days ahead of time with nefarious glee.

They can learn evasions because they are trainable animals.

Whatever you want to call it, there are certainly learned misbehaviours.

If a horse bucks, and the result is that the rider is scared and so stops asking him to work, then the horse can learn that bucking=not having to work. It's training, just like teaching a horse the proper behaviours. (And it is also the rider's fault, of course. ;))

If, on the other hand, the horse bucks and the rider says "no!" and keeps right on going, he (horse) hasn't gotten out of anything, so the conditioning isn't there. In that case, if the horse keeps bucking every time, I'd be looking and soundness, saddle fit, rider's seat, etc.

Exactly. :yes:

"when the horse does _x_, release the pressure."

The biggest misconception you have.

Either you're misunderstanding, or there's a great gaping hole in your education. Or possibly you didn't mean that the way it sounded.

[amastrike]

Well, I know my horse certainly plans things and goes out of his way to bother and annoy me. We're like an old married couple :lol:.

[slc2]

"Either you're misunderstanding, or there's a great gaping hole in your education. Or possibly you didn't mean that the way it sounded."

And I would say, wrong on all 3 accounts. You didn't even give me a chance to discuss it before you started in on me.

[Thomas_1]

Horses don't plot, cheat, lie, deceive or fake things.

That's the domain of the human.

Evading to me simply means the horse is trying to avoid or escape something he doesn't like. He may over time have been trained inadvertently to do something bad as a response to something which was an incorrect request.

A rider that thinks a horse is evading because the horse has a problem is indeed right in so far as the problem is the rider that seeks to blame the horse rather than figure what is wrong and understand why the horse is expressing it's opinion in the way it is.

eg
If a rider uses hands too strongly trying to pull the horses head in then this is likely to happen. The horse will feel like he's trying to dig a hole, not go forward. If the horse has anything about it and is going to express his opinion he'll go either above or behind the bit.

If he's poorly balanced he may buck on transition. Likewise if he's in pain or trying to sort his balance out or rid himself of a rider interfering with him trying to balance as he say transitions to canter he may throw in a buck.

All that though isn't planned as some evil intent. They're pretty simple animals that live in the moment and respond well if you listen and try to understand why they're doing what they're doing.

[CosMonster]

Horses definitely live in the moment. They will try evasions to get out of work, but it isn't planned out--it is because they are tired, or the work is hard, or uncomfortable, and so they do something to try to make it easier. It's an immediate reaction to what they are feeling in that moment. They don't go into it thinking, "Okay, if I buck when she asks me to canter, she'll get scared and back off."

That said, you can definitely train a horse to, say, buck when you ask for canter, because if he does it once and you do back off, he'll think that is the right response. They really don't understand "good" or "bad" like we do, they don't understand the objectives we have for the ride, so you can definitely train them to do bad things. Even in that case, though, while the horse may learn to always buck when asked for canter, he isn't doing it because he doesn't want to canter, he is doing it because that is what he has been taught to do when you apply those aids.

Some horses are less eager to please than others, but I think anyone who truly believes that horses resist because they simply don't want to work is a poor horseman. They wouldn't naturally do any of this, so it is up to us as trainers to make the desired response easy and enjoyable. If we don't, then that is our failing as a trainer, not their failing as a horse.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

While the common perception is that since horses don't have a prefontal cortex, and thus there is no reasoning, to some extent I disagree. I think there is a range of intelligence (as with every species), and that can be encouraged. I have seen too much evidence of at least limited reasoning.

[Ambrey]

And I would say, wrong on all 3 accounts. You didn't even give me a chance to discuss it before you started in on me.

Actually, the post you used to snipe at me would have been a perfect opportunity to discuss it rather than just "start in on" someone. At least she gave you at least one option that didn't involve you being clueless.

[Moderator 1]

Let's all please actually discuss ideas and clarify your statements on this topic versus being worried about who's starting in on whom.

Thanks!
Mod 1

[slc2]

Certainly horses can reason, just not in exactly the same way as humans. They may not have the same sort of brain humans do, but it also seems very little has been done with them in the way of recent research on their brains. Understanding of the human brain, such as the job of the cerebellum has changed a lot recently, so maybe new research would do that for the horse too.

A horse is not like a human critter. I think we're all critters, and that human brains aren't completely different from other mammalian brains.

But each critter is designed to learn certain things easily, and have a big blank spot about learning other things.

An older experiment with little marmosets (mini me monkeys) found they were quite clever about finding a treat that dropped down a vertical plastic tube. Turn the tube at an angle or slant, and all of a sudden, they were 'stupid' about finding the treat. Put the tube straight up and down, all of a sudden they are 'smart'.

Each critter is designed to learn certain things and not others. Some animal's behavior is more 'plastic' or flexible than others.

Riding involves movement and balance, I think the way a horse learns and what works in training, is very, very different from how a rat or dog behaves in a laboratory doing a simpler task...or even how a human behaves. Research has mostly been done on lower animals, and on carnivores and omnivores like rats and humans...all on animals very different from horses. Horses and animals like them are very little researched...and we're constantly warned not to assume research results always should be given extremely wide (and unproven) application.

Riding, as far as I know, has been very, very slightly researched, and that research is limited to a very few individuals, so it's hard to duplicate their results or their experiments. Experiments that haven't had their results replicated, are just experiments that have not had their results replicated.

There isn't the amazing emotional interaction with a rider, nor is there the issue of motion and balance, in most learning research so far. Nor does any current research take into account the issue that with the horse and rider, BOTH are learning, BOTH are trying to balance, BOTH are interacting.

I'm not sure everything that works in dressage can really be made to fit into any behavioral model from research. I'm not sure training techniques in dressage are really so simple, or so clearly one or the other type of research-defined learning.

[BaroquePony]

Horses and animals like them

herbivores

[slc2]

We are carnivores, are we the same as tasmanian devils?

Not necessarily.

There are a lot of herbivores, and very few animals much like a horse at all. Horses aren't much like deer, or rhinoceroses, or moose. Nothing is JUST like a horse except a horse, nothing else thinks, moves or responds exactly like a horse. Some animals are similar, like donkeys and zebras, but we don't ride them or select them for the same traits, so I'm not so sure research on them would help with the learning-riding issues.

I think horses are very intelligent, but intelligent in a horse's way. I think horses 'reason' in the sense they react to a situation with a behavior that is desirable.

They learn very, very easily, I think, from dozens of different very different looking methods - each one designed around a specific, and very different goal.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Actually, I believe humans are omnivores.

I haven't given much thought as to the workings of the equine brain. They are capable of conditioned response, that much I know. I believe they are also capable of affection and dislike. Fear, of course.

I think poor training can lead to many negative behaviors. But I don't think horses plot revenge or the like. I do think they are capable of figuring out a way to get rid of a burden on their back, or die trying.

I'm not much of a thinker, I guess. I'd rather just ride. Or drive. Or groom. I think you can over analyze this stuff and make yourself crazy.

[camohn]

Like people...they have their personalities. I have one that was not graced with any kind of a work ethic and did run through quite a variety of evasions and has finally given up on them. Others I have had tried very hard and had a super work ethic.

[Ambrey]

Operant conditioning has been researched in many species, and basically anything with a functioning brain has a mechanism to learn that way.

And, in fact, anyone who has ever tried "clicker training" can confirm that it works quite well in horses ;)

The issue as SLC describes is is dealt with by understanding that no "reinforcement," either positive or negative, exists in a vacuum. Besides those reinforcers that we provide or control, there are always many outside stimuli that we can't control. So, for example, instinct, pain, imbalance, fear, the desire to get home and eat, the desire to be with herd-mates- those all exist too.

Operant conditioning also isn't the only mechanism for learning, or the only impetus for behavior. It is just the easiest to use to mold and shape behavior (a.k.a. train). It is what we're using when we say "good boy!" to reinforce a behavior, when we use punishment to reduce the frequency of a behavior, when we use treats to shape a behavior- the concept of "negative reinforcement" is simply a part of that concept that people need to understand.

[Thomas_1]

My experience as a horse trainer is that horses have the potential to learn bad much quicker and easier than they learn good.

This is because they're flight and fright animals and hence their being is such that they will do all they can to avoid (evade) what they fear or find uncomfortable.

Most problems described as evasions are caused by slow progression over time and are IME learned evasions.

Evasion can give a horse relief from the incompetence of a rider and make it seem to that rider that plain simply it's getting them out of working properly.

If a horse stays with a highly competent trainer/rider all it's life from being first backed and then properly produced then it never develops learned evasions in the first place.

Fact is though that we just don't live in that perfect world and horses go off to those with at best average competence, so the horse doesn't stay soft, round, attentive to subtle leg aids, responsive to the slightest indication with the hand and so it doesn't get to keep all the nice attributes which make a good horse.

Over time the horse comes to anticipate that what it's been taught progressively is going to happen and it either switches off and submits or it continues to express its opinion with what is described as evasion or disobedience.

So a classic example. One of my pet hates is watching riders when they're out on the road and hear a vehicle coming up behind them and they turn to look over their offside shoulder to see what it is behind.

Try it sitting in your seat now. With your hands in front of you as if they were holding reins.

In turning you put on a whole set of commands by shifting your weight, seat bone, leg and even your hands - you give with the (road) nearside rein and take with the offside. You've given the horse the signal to drift away from the curb of the road and into the crown - so to drift in front of the car. Now of course this isn't what the rider meant so the horse might get a jab in the mouth and a leg in the ribs to get back over and walk straight. Basically such riders teach the horse that all the signals for leg yielding means go straight.

Now no one will ever persuade me that the horse is going to lie awake at nights thinking "when I'm asked to canter and I'm unbalanced, I'll buck" or "when my head is dragged in, I'll go behind the bit or get hold of it and piss off" or "if I let her know my saddle pinches and she's too heavy when she plonks down on it I'll get out of work"

But if a horse tells you something isn't right then it's incumbent to find out what is wrong and why he's telling you he's not happy or comfortable or doesn't understand what is right.

p.s. Humans are indeed omnivores. Though on a bad day I'm sure I could do a Tasmanian Devil impersonation ;)

[hitchinmygetalong]

But if a horse tells you something isn't right then it's incumbent to find out what is wrong and why he's telling you he's not happy or comfortable or doesn't understand what is right.

Yes! Their "evasions" are their way of telling the rider something. It takes two to communicate. A sensitive, perceptive rider will listen to the horse, even when it is not doing what is asked of it.

Dr. Bramlage said it best: "Horses can't talk, but they will never lie to you."

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

It is absolutely amazing what your horse can tell you, if you're listening. He's my "eyes on the ground."

[Sabine]

I voted Other. It all depends. Horses are the mirrors of their Handlers. It's all about Alpha- that is their world. If you 'alpha' is appropriate for your horse- you will not have issues- you will naturally guide and lead the horse and the horse will follow- more or less and you will know how to attend to those times where the horse has a moment.
If the alpha of the handler does not match the alpha of the horse - you will have issues of overmatching or undermatching- in other words- horses doing what they want and handlers constantly complaining (extreme version) or horses being completely intimidated ( to the point of balking and shutting down).

Training horses is always a matter of balance of energy. Controlling (alpha) energy should match the horse. A good handler will know how to match the energy without shutting down the horse. Most amateurs have a hard time with that and will either have to choose a horses that matches them naturally or hire a trainer to install enough basic training that the submission issue does not crop up all the time.

btw- getting out of work- is always a way to disrespect the Alpha! This always means that the horse thinks it is stronger than the handler and CAN say NO! Humans tend to equal 'not loving the horse' with being strict and enforcing. Same mistake many parents make with their kids.

[slc2]

I don't agree with this. I think 99% of the problems people have in dressage have nothing to do with being 'alpha enough'. I think it's very simple - one either rides correctly or not. One either trains correctly or not.

I don't think that for example, at the Spanish Riding School, they are so obsessed with 'respect' and 'energy' but more 'correctness'. That I think is far more a celebrity trainer/talking head type thing. Sit up, use your legs correctly, voila, 'respect', 'alpha', or the EIPI (evolving into political incorrectness), 'dominance'.

I think it's very, very simple, just 'are you sitting correctly', 'are you using your reins correctly', 'are you using seat and leg correctly'. If people have knowledge of what they're supposed to do, if they can feel what they ARE doing so they can correct it, if they escalate their aids properly, if they respond in the right time frame, all of a sudden they get 'respect' and they're 'alpha'Their emotions can interfere with this if they get too preoccupied with their emotions to function. I think all sorts of people can ride well, whether they are very 'alpha' or 'project the right energy' or not. If they learn to ride, the horse will do the stuff.

[Penthilisea]

I believe there is a list of biomechanical "evasions" that come naturally to a horse with weak muscling, laziness, stiffness, etc.
I often see young horses introduced to contact too early, and loosing rythem and speed as a result. Is it a decision on their part? Nope, they're simply too busy concentrating on the new thing to keep all the other skills going. That when as a rider we reinforce forward then ask again, lightly, till the horse learns how to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. :winkgrin:

Additionally, horses do learn through trial and error. If they are stressed and buck and get you off and that releases their stress, well next time they are stressed, that will be their go-to technique to relieve the stress unless you as a rider change something.